Jesus died on the cross.

Overblood

According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Assuming that he existed, and that he was the son of god, I have reason to believe that he didn't die at all.

First of all: The Resurrection. He didn't really die now did he. Didn't Jesus came back to life three days after the crucifixion? That's not really the full blown death that we're used to hearing about. And we're supposed to feel guilt and sorrow for him? He got off lightly!

Secondly: If Jesus was god, how did god die? God can't die...

This question might seem silly to you, but it's genuine.

Did Jesus really "die"?

seadog9

Definitely wasn't full blown death.

I think it was just glorified thrill-seeking more than anything else.

seanybiker

also if he did come back after a long weekend. How old was he when he did actually die. Not trolling or anything just curious what ye believe.

Overblood

He was 33 when he died methinks.

seanybiker

Overblood wrote: »

He was 33 when he died methinks.

That was on the cross wasnt it. What about the second time he died?ya would imagine with the cool intentions in the last 120 years ya would think he might make an ould comeback.

seadog9

seanybiker wrote: »

That was on the cross wasnt it. What about the second time he died?ya would imagine with the cool intentions in the last 120 years ya would think he might make an ould comeback.

Would certainly boost spirits around these parts, i wouldn't rule such a come-back out!

Seaneh

Overblood wrote: »

According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Assuming that he existed, and that he was the son of god, I have reason to believe that he didn't die at all.

First of all: The Resurrection. He didn't really die now did he. Didn't Jesus came back to life three days after the crucifixion? That's not really the full blown death that we're used to hearing about. And we're supposed to feel guilt and sorrow for him? He got off lightly in my opinion. Laughing all the way to the bank.

Secondly: If Jesus was god, how did god die? God can't die...

This question might seem silly to you, but it's genuine.

Did Jesus really "die"?

Comming on here post drivel like that with a Carl Sagan quote as your sig isn't going to work.


Obvious troll is obvious.

seanybiker

Seaneh wrote: »

Comming on here post drivel like that with a Carl Sagan quote as your sig isn't going to work.


Obvious troll is obvious.

Just googled who carl whatever is. Does seem a bit trolly but maybe he just curious.

Overblood

Seaneh wrote: »

Comming on here post drivel like that with a Carl Sagan quote as your sig isn't going to work.


Obvious troll is obvious.

OK I got rid of the excellent Carl Sagan quote temporarily, just for you. Maybe you could answer the question now?

I ain't a troll. As I said, it is a genuine question. The rest of the posters seem to be having a laugh, but not me. If you want I can put a "Christian posters only" notice at the top?

Seaneh

No, you didn't ask a question, you came in here and made several statements as if they are fact.

Overblood

Overblood

Well if I said something that's factually inaccurate, maybe somebody could explain to me where I went wrong?

By the way, I just noticed that the three posters above all have names that begin with "Sea".

Seaneh

Oh look, you edited your post to remove obvious trolling.

Well done, now you have a chance of sucking somebody into your little debate.

Zombrex

Overblood wrote: »

That's not really the full blown death that we're used to hearing about.

What qualifies as a "full blown death"

Overblood wrote: »

And we're supposed to feel guilt and sorrow for him? He got off lightly!

Yes that has been discussed before, the idea that he didn't do any worse than the other people being crucified and he got to come back to life.

The Christian belief (and correct me if I'm wrong guys) is that in the moment he died he suffered the full weight of man's insult to God. Or something. Can't say I understand it myself, but the belief is that it was much worse for Jesus than it would be for a normal man simply dying on a cross.

kelly1

I very much doubt your sincerity or maybe tact isn't your strong point but I'll try to answer your questions.

Overblood wrote: »

According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Assuming that he existed, and that he was the son of god, I have reason to believe that he didn't die at all.

First of all: The Resurrection. He didn't really die now did he. Didn't Jesus came back to life three days after the crucifixion? That's not really the full blown death that we're used to hearing about. And we're supposed to feel guilt and sorrow for him? He got off lightly!

Think about what you're saying. He was scourged, beaten, given a crown of thorns and made to carry a cross to His place of execution, nailed to the cross through His hands and feet and hung on the cross for 3 hours before being lanced with a spear and you really think He could have survived this ordeal??? If you think Jesus got off lightly, in what way do you think He should have suffered more?

Overblood wrote: »

Secondly: If Jesus was god, how did god die? God can't die...

You're right, God can't die. It was Jesus' human body that died, not His soul or His divine Spirit. He died a human death so that we could have divine life!

So what makes you think He didn't die? Have you ever heard of anyone who survived crucifixion? Remember the soldiers didn't break Jesus' legs because they knew He died quickly as a result of the amount of scourging etc He was subjected to.

MatthewVII

Wicknight wrote: »

The Christian belief (and correct me if I'm wrong guys) is that in the moment he died he suffered the full weight of man's insult to God. Or something. Can't say I understand it myself, but the belief is that it was much worse for Jesus than it would be for a normal man simply dying on a cross.

I seem to remember hearing that because of his divine nature, he could feel all the sin and suffering of man all burdened upon himself which wrought upon him torturous pain which is incomprehensible by human standards.

In answer to the OP's question, I'm pretty sure religious people believe Jesus died fully. If he didn't truly die then he didn't really give a sacrifice and didn't really atone for sins etc.

Overblood

Wicknight wrote: »

What qualifies as a "full blown death"

Your heart stops, you lie down, and you don't get up again. Ever.

Kelly1 wrote: »

Think about what you're saying. He was scourged, beaten, given a crown of thorns and made to carry a cross to His place of execution, nailed to the cross through His hands and feet and hung on the cross for 3 hours before being lanced with a spear and you really think He could have survived this ordeal??? If you think Jesus got off lightly, in what way do you think He should have suffered more?

I don't want to talk about his torture.

I'm talking about his death, and how "he died for our sins".

He died... and woke up three days later. That's not what I'd call being dead. He obviously didn't die for anybodies sins if he got up three days later and flew into heaven. I don't see that as a sacrifice.

kelly1 wrote: »

You're right, God can't die. It was Jesus' human body that died, not His soul or His divine Spirit. He died a human death so that we could have divine life!

God died a human death? But as I said, the human was resurrected shortly after. That means he's not dead and there was no sacrifice. It's like me giving my friend a gift, then stealing it back from him three days later...

kelly1 wrote: »

So what makes you think He didn't die? Have you ever heard of anyone who survived crucifixion?

Yes I heard of somebody who survived the crucifixion... Jesus. Sure he walked away from it three days later did he not?

I read somwhere that he was given some sort of vinegar and opium concoction which could have driven him into a seriously deep sleep, for three days.

kelly1

Overblood wrote: »

I don't want to talk about his torture.

Why not? I brought it up to ask you do you really believe that someone could have survived the torture and crucifixion?

Overblood wrote: »

He died... and woke up three days later. That's not what I'd call being dead.

If Jesus had woken up, He would have been asleep! So which is it, dead or asleep?

Overblood wrote: »

God died a human death?

Effectively yes, through the body of Jesus. His Spirit didn't die.

Overblood wrote: »

I read somwhere that he was given some sort of vinegar and opium concoction which could have driven him into a seriously deep sleep, for three days.

Oh, is that what it was? :rolleyes:

O'Coonassa

Overblood wrote: »

Did Jesus really "die"?

Not according to our Muslim brothers anyway. Also not according to Matt 12:40 if we take it to it's logical conclusion. There are theories known as 'swoon theory' that are worth taking a look at.

kelly1 wrote: »

Have you ever heard of anyone who survived crucifixion?

Yes there are several recorded instances of this AFAIK. Most notably Josephus Flavius the Jewish historian records the survival of one of his mates.

Seaneh

Wicknight wrote: »

The Christian belief (and correct me if I'm wrong guys) is that in the moment he died he suffered the full weight of man's insult to God. Or something. Can't say I understand it myself, but the belief is that it was much worse for Jesus than it would be for a normal man simply dying on a cross.

This is what the bible says
2 Corinthians 5:21 (Amplified Bible)

21For our sake He made Christ [virtually] to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in and through Him we might become [[a]endued with, viewed as being in, and examples of] the righteousness of God [what we ought to be, approved and acceptable and in right relationship with Him, by His goodness].

So in you are pretty much correct, he took the burden of ALL sin for us so that we could have a covenant with the Father on terms that are acceptable to him.

And yes, it is much worse for Jesus because he was born sinless and lived a sinless life, he was perfection personified, he was God's embodyment on earth.

Imagine if you had never felt pain before and then all at once you experiences every type of pain mutliplied by infinity? Pretty hard to imagine, right?

Well Christ had never experienced Sin, he was perfect, sin to him was something hurtfull and to be despised, for him to become sin would have been amazingly painfull and hard to do!

Overblood

kelly1 wrote: »

Oh, is that what it was? :rolleyes:

What was it so?

O'Coonassa

Seaneh wrote: »

he took the burden of ALL sin for us so that we could have a covenant with the Father on terms that are acceptable to him.

Where did he say this please?

Seaneh

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Not according to our Muslim brothers anyway. Also not according to Matt 12:40 if we take it to it's logical conclusion. There are theories known as 'swoon theory' that are worth taking a look at.

And the swoon tehory can be debunked as easily as it can be argued.
Just like this.

mdebets

kelly1 wrote: »

Think about what you're saying. He was scourged, beaten, given a crown of thorns and made to carry a cross to His place of execution, nailed to the cross through His hands and feet and hung on the cross for 3 hours before being lanced with a spear and you really think He could have survived this ordeal??? If you think Jesus got off lightly, in what way do you think He should have suffered more?

That's actually a very weak argument.
Compared to other crucifixions, Jesus came off lightly. Normally a person would hang on the cross for several days. And as O'Coonassa already said, there are evidences of people survivng this ordeal.

getz

Overblood wrote: »

According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Assuming that he existed, and that he was the son of god, I have reason to believe that he didn't die at all.

First of all: The Resurrection. He didn't really die now did he. Didn't Jesus came back to life three days after the crucifixion? That's not really the full blown death that we're used to hearing about. And we're supposed to feel guilt and sorrow for him? He got off lightly!

Secondly: If Jesus was god, how did god die? God can't die...

This question might seem silly to you, but it's genuine.

Did Jesus really "die"?

jesus died on the cross ?i think we have been here before can any one tell where dose it say in the new testament he died on a cross ? the romans killed people on upright sticks,as for rising from the dead, early budist writings in napal say a man came from jerusalem with a story about being crucified and lived with them ,[coincidence?] only a idea ,no doubt i will get enlightend

Seaneh

mdebets wrote: »

That's actually a very weak argument.
Compared to other crucifixions, Jesus came off lightly. Normally a person would hang on the cross for several days. And as O'Coonassa already said, there are evidences of people survivng this ordeal.

That's not true. People generally died after less than an hour, your arms give up and you sag forward and down, the air is cut off and you asfixate causeing the brain to shut down.


Most people were tied to the cross, Jesus was nailed to it, through the wrists and ankles, so his arms wouldn't have been able to pull his weight up for even a fraction of the time most people could and there is no way you could push down on your ankles when there is a rather large lump of metal smashed through them.

Seaneh

getz wrote: »

jesus died on the cross ?i think we have been here before can any one tell where dose it say in the new testament he died on a cross ? the romans killed people on upright sticks,as for rising from the dead, early budist writings in napal say a man came from jerusalem with a story about being crucified and lived with them ,[coincidence?] only a idea ,no doubt i will get enlightend

Theu hing people on upright sticks with a seperate stick acorss the top which the arms were tied to.

Not a classical cross shape, no, more like a "T" where the top stick crosses the main stick isn't important, the outcome is the same.

kelly1

Overblood wrote: »

What was it so?

I was dismissing your suggestion that Jesus was merely drugged instead of dead, not disputing what He was given to drink. He was given vinegar and hyssop btw.

mdebets wrote: »

That's actually a very weak argument.
Compared to other crucifixions, Jesus came off lightly. Normally a person would hang on the cross for several days. And as O'Coonassa already said, there are evidences of people survivng this ordeal.

Came of lightly?? Why do you think He died on the cross so quickly? Because He had lost so much blood from the scourging and then had to carry the cross! He was nearly dead by the time He was hung on the cross. One of the soldiers also lanced Him to make sure He was dead. They normally broke the legs but Jesus was already dead when they speared Him.

Seaneh

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Where did he say this please?

Well the bible says it in many places, like...
1 Cor. 15:3-4
1 Peter 3:18
Hebrews 9:28
John 3:16
Hebrews 10:12-14

getz

Seaneh wrote: »

Theu hing people on upright sticks with a seperate stick acorss the top which the arms were tied to.

Not a classical cross shape, no, more like a "T" where the top stick crosses the main stick isn't important, the outcome is the same.

i have never seen that one,i know that early christians never mentioned a cross in their writings or drawings just fishes-could it just be that the churches wanted a more impressive thing to wave about and pray to instead of fishes?

O'Coonassa

Seaneh wrote: »

Well the bible says it in many places, like...
1 Cor. 15:3-4
1 Peter 3:18
Hebrews 9:28
John 3:16
Hebrews 10:12-14

Yes but the people who wrote those documents never even met Jesus and do not quote his teachings. Surely if what has become such a central concept were it true then it would exist in the mans own words?

Seaneh

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Yes but the people who wrote those documents never even met Jesus and do not quote his teachings. Surely if what has become such a central concept were it true then it would exist in the mans own words?

And what is your basis for that statement?

kelly1

getz wrote: »

i have never seen that one,i know that early christians never mentioned a cross in their writings or drawings just fishes-could it just be that the churches wanted a more impressive thing to wave about and pray to instead of fishes?

The fish symbol was used by early Christians to avoid persecution under Nero. See http://www.plymouth-church.com/ichthus.html

O'Coonassa

Seaneh wrote: »

And what is your basis for that statement?

I don't trust scribes. I think that the total lack of any such teaching in the synoptics points to the fact that it is mere invention.

getz

kelly1 wrote: »

The fish symbol was used by early Christians to avoid persecution under Nero. See http://www.plymouth-church.com/ichthus.html

thanks for that

Seaneh

O'Coonassa wrote: »

I don't trust scribes. I think that the total lack of any such teaching in the synoptics points to the fact that it is mere invention.

Oh, so you have no proof to back up your previous statement?

Fair enough, I don't have to deal with it so.

O'Coonassa

Seaneh wrote: »

Oh, so you have no proof to back up your previous statement?

The entire lack of any such concept existing in the mans own words, or in the words of any who had known him, would seem to be sufficient proof of it's invention.

Seaneh

O'Coonassa wrote: »

The entire lack of any such concept existing in the mans own words, or in the words of any who had known him, would seem to be sufficient proof of it's invention.

John was one of, if not, his colsest friend, and he clearly said it.

marco_polo

Seaneh wrote: »

John was one of, if not, his colsest friend, and he clearly said it.

You are not suggesting that it was John the Apostle who wrote the Gospel of John?

NuMarvel

Overblood wrote: »

According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Assuming that he existed, and that he was the son of god, I have reason to believe that he didn't die at all.

First of all: The Resurrection. He didn't really die now did he. Didn't Jesus came back to life three days after the crucifixion? That's not really the full blown death that we're used to hearing about. And we're supposed to feel guilt and sorrow for him? He got off lightly!

Secondly: If Jesus was god, how did god die? God can't die...

This question might seem silly to you, but it's genuine.

Did Jesus really "die"?

I'm not a Christian (ar at least, I'm not a knowledgeable Christian) so I can't use the Bible to answer your question but if we're proceeding on the assumption that Jesus Christ existed (as you state above), then you've answered your own question.

To come BACK to life, you must have LEFT life at some stage. Aka dead. Sorry to be pedantic, but if those are the terms of the question, then it's answered.

As for the second question, I'll leave that to someone far more knowledgeable.

lee_baby_simms

My problem with Christianity isn't whats being said rather how its being said.

I'd happily read gospels and psalms in the form of tweets.

'@judas get ****ed' etc...

Seaneh

marco_polo wrote: »

You are not suggesting that it was John the Apostle who wrote the Gospel of John?

Yes, yes I am, and I'm not the only one.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0711fea3.asp

And if not him, then somebody close to him and no later than 90AD.

O'Coonassa

Seaneh wrote: »

And if not him, then somebody close to him and no later than 90AD.

According to the vast majority of Biblical scholars it was written in Ephesus in Asia Minor between 90-100AD and the author was not an eye-witness.

Gingganggooley

NuMarvel wrote: »

I'm not a Christian (ar at least, I'm not a knowledgeable Christian) so I can't use the Bible to answer your question but if we're proceeding on the assumption that Jesus Christ existed (as you state above), then you've answered your own question.

To come BACK to life, you must have LEFT life at some stage. Aka dead. Sorry to be pedantic, but if those are the terms of the question, then it's answered.

Q.E.D.

mdebets

Seaneh wrote: »

That's not true. People generally died after less than an hour, your arms give up and you sag forward and down, the air is cut off and you asfixate causeing the brain to shut down.


Most people were tied to the cross, Jesus was nailed to it, through the wrists and ankles, so his arms wouldn't have been able to pull his weight up for even a fraction of the time most people could and there is no way you could push down on your ankles when there is a rather large lump of metal smashed through them.

Not quite true. have a read here or when you don't trust Wikipedia, follow the long list of references in the article.

Crucifixions only were short, when they broke the legs of the condemned man. If they didn't people could last for days.

Fanny Cradock

mdebets wrote: »

Not quite true. have a read here or when you don't trust Wikipedia, follow the long list of references in the article.

Crucifixions only were short, when they broke the legs of the condemned man. If they didn't people could last for days.

How do yo you know that crucifixions where "short" only if they broke the legs of the victims? Do you suppose the Romans beat all prisoners equally?

mdebets

kelly1 wrote: »

Came of lightly?? Why do you think He died on the cross so quickly? Because He had lost so much blood from the scourging and then had to carry the cross! He was nearly dead by the time He was hung on the cross. One of the soldiers also lanced Him to make sure He was dead. They normally broke the legs but Jesus was already dead when they speared Him.

You don't understand my argument.
I was not saying he came of lightly. I was saying he came of lightly compared to a normal crucification. What do you think is harder? hanging on the cross for 3 hours or for several days.
You must also see it compared to your argument. You basically say that because he suffered so much on the cross, he is special. I'm just saying that this argument is week, as he came off lightly, compared to others, who were also cruxified.

Fanny Cradock

Overblood wrote: »

I'm talking about his death, and how "he died for our sins".

He died... and woke up three days later. That's not what I'd call being dead. He obviously didn't die for anybodies sins if he got up three days later and flew into heaven. I don't see that as a sacrifice.

He didn't "wake up", he was resurrected. Nor, for that matter, did he fly into heaven a few days later. I strongly suggest that if you want to stick around this forum for much longer you at least make an honest attempt to understand the basics of Christianity.

Overblood wrote: »

God died a human death? But as I said, the human was resurrected shortly after. That means he's not dead and there was no sacrifice. It's like me giving my friend a gift, then stealing it back from him three days later...

What? Do you have any understanding of what the resurrection was about?

Overblood wrote: »

Yes I heard of somebody who survived the crucifixion... Jesus. Sure he walked away from it three days later did he not?

I read somwhere that he was given some sort of vinegar and opium concoction which could have driven him into a seriously deep sleep, for three days.

If you want to believe that then that is just fine. Though I'm not sure the disciples would have been convinced that Jesus was divine if he was half-dead.

Fanny Cradock

mdebets wrote: »

You don't understand my argument.
I was not saying he came of lightly. I was saying he came of lightly compared to a normal crucification. What do you think is harder? hanging on the cross for 3 hours or for several days.
You must also see it compared to your argument. You basically say that because he suffered so much on the cross, he is special. I'm just saying that this argument is week, as he came off lightly, compared to others, who were also cruxified.

And would it make any better if Jesus died the most unimaginably painful death? What are you actually arguing about?

mdebets

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

How do yo you know that crucifixions where "short" only if they broke the legs of the victims? Do you suppose the Romans beat all prisoners equally?

What normally happens during a crucifixion is that you slowly suffocate yourself, because your torso sacks down.
If your legs are broken, you cannot longer support your body and die quickly. For more, read the Wiki article or John 19:31-32.

O'Coonassa

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Though I'm not sure the disciples would have been convinced that Jesus was divine if he was half-dead.

For Jews to consider the Messiah 'divine' would have been considered utmost blasphemy and they would have been unable to continue preaching and worshipping in the Jerusalem temple as they did.

It seems likely however that the profession of divinity is what got Stephen stoned and is the reason why the Greek followers of Jesus were run out of Jerusalem as depicted in Acts.