The Irish just accept things!

DWCommuter

M50 toll bridge causes chaos for years. A private company milks it for nearly 2 decades (with a Government blessing) and then gets paid off. The Government maintain the toll. Our bus services are poor. Our rail service is a joke. The luas just stole bus passengers. Its extensions are at the whim of developers and not commuters. Transport 21 was drawn up by politicians and civil servants that know nothing about public transport or commuting. The Navan railway project should be on the X-Files, while the WRC is beyond the X-Files! The inter urban roads are 4 years behind schedule. Metro North is seen as a panacea just because it was Government policity since 2000. The Interconnector, sorry, "DART UNDERGROUND" is becoming a fantasy playgroup for jaded planners in Inchicore , while our "Government" plays for time before the inevitable kick to touch that our near 20 billion deficit will require.

Meanwhile the financially defunct peasants of Ireland hardly bat an eyelid. While Im at it how can the red cow interchange be "freeflow" if there are lights regulating the Ballymount road upper junction? And is it true to say that all the cash we spent on it, isn't worth a beer mans fart, (to out bound traffic) because Newlands Cross still has lights?

Im looking at things that I don't fully understand and at things that I do. But Im still seeking those answers.:D

(Just back from "the continent" and **** me, its a lesson in how its done.)

Each and everyone of us should hang our heads in shame.

Random

We all hate the system but none of us seem bothered to do anything about it. Thus the system stays as it is.

Fantastic little world we live in all the same.

AlekSmart

Im looking at things that I don't fully understand and at things that I do. But Im still seeking those answers.

Each and everyone of us should hang our heads in shame.

DW there is a case to be made that the Irish are essentially problematic to govern either by imposed rule OR by their own hand.

Reading through the emotive threads regarding the Harristown Bus dispute I was struck by the numbers of angry punters who directed their 100% proof ire at Bus Drivers in general and even ONE in particular.

Plenty of folks lining up to berate Busdrivers and call for their sacking and replacement with Minimum Wage casual staff.....An Irish Solution to an Irish Problem yet again.

With attitudes such as this in abundance,I am left to ponder upon the wisdom of our continued Independence and wonder perhaps if we should not be looking for a "Friendly Takeover" by some well run,socially mindful state...Luxembourg perhaps....(After all,they DID have a very fine Radio Station) or Bolivia.

Instead we plod drunkenly along,happy in our feigned ignorance,as the usual suspects continue to insulate themselves against the worldwide rescession by imposing More Taxation on an ever dwindling group of productive workers in order to redistribute that money to an ever Increasing group of non-productive folks.....I am struggling to find some economic basis for this policy to succeed and I`m not having much luck !

In the meantime I can only add a big +1 to your well considered list of Financial Black Holes :eek:

amacachi

What shall we do? Walk everywhere? Move house? Not go to work? Vote for a party who would actually do something? OK so that last one was just silly.

DWCommuter

Random wrote: »

We all hate the system but none of us seem bothered to do anything about it. Thus the system stays as it is.

Fantastic little world we live in all the same.

I agree and disagree. There are those who are bothered, but they tend to get smothered by those who justify and play into the hands of the "system" through nothing more than self indulgence, ego and a very confused approach to using their vote.

Amtmann

Before accepting the superiority of all things continental, ponder for a moment Italian fascism, German Nazism, Belgian colonialism and the fact that the French are on their FIFTH republic (and counting). Beneath the veneer of civility and order lurks many a closeted skeleton.

DWCommuter

Furet wrote: »

Before accepting the superiority of all things continental, ponder for a moment Italian fascism, German Nazism, Belgian colonialism and the fact that the French are on their FIFTH republic (and counting). Beneath the veneer of civility and order lurks many a closeted skeleton.

And this country has the biggest, shrewdest and most closeted of all skeletons....Fianna Fail. A deft touch often conceals a public disaster.

Hagar

Furet wrote: »

Beneath the veneer of civility and order lurks many a closeted skeleton.

I wouldn't be too inclined to look under the surface in Ireland either.

godtabh

DWCommuter wrote: »

The Interconnector, sorry, "DART UNDERGROUND" is becoming a fantasy playgroup for jaded planners in Inchicore , while our "Government" plays for time before the inevitable kick to touch that our near 20 billion deficit will require..

The Interconnector is been done in the back of Heuston Station. The lead engineer knows his ****.

Off all the complaints you've made what would you do to sort it out. GIve some specifics

OK-Cancel-Apply

A recent Mercer study showed that Ireland's infrastructure and public transport is among the best in the world...

Amtmann

DWCommuter wrote: »

And this country has the biggest, shrewdest and most closeted of all skeletons....Fianna Fail. A deft touch often conceals a public disaster.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm under no illusions.

godtabh

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

A recent Mercer study showed that Ireland's infrastructure and public transport is among the best in the world...

Read studies on peoples attitudes to public transport and infrastructure. Its very hard to change these. Look what the did in Belgium and how they turned things around and yet still the customer satisfaction wasnt there

Zoney

Some attitudes about how bad Ireland is are about as useful as the people who stick their head in the sand and pretend everything's "grand". It's no good moaning on about all the deficiencies (and using hyperbole and extreme cases) without taking into account improvements that have come to pass, and as someone has pointed out, the failings of those to whom we would compare ourselves. A great many Irish emigrants have not had a fantastic time of it in their new surroundings. Maybe people have been too quick over the years to focus exclusively on greener grass abroad rather than just trying to improve the turf here.

10 years ago I took bus trips on bangers with bench seating that belched black smoke out the back. You almost exclusively travelled on winding country roads with poor surfaces even on the "interurbans". The trains were more unreliable than today, and often you had ancient carriages (admittedly these were comfortable if heating was working). Today I can book my train ticket online with a seat reservation, and indeed cheap fare if I travel off-peak. The M50, as bad as the toll booths were and as dodgy as all of West Dublin development has been, I can well remember how messy things were with no M50!

Now, I still believe in holding our current government to account. The 4 year delay on the interurbans for example has perhaps meant no finished N11, M20, etc. Our rail network needed a lot more than the 1990s "ontrack". Dublin Bus seems to not have progressed much beyond the bus renewals in the late 90s early 2000s. Bus Éireann city bus services leave much to be desired in Limerick and Cork at least - they are barely usable in my opinion and make Dublin Bus look like a model of efficiency.

But I do not think people should be writing off the country as some kind of mockery, particularly if they are actually from this country.

carlmango11

When things like this happen in a country, realistically, what can you do? I really want to know what the French would do, they know how to fight their government for what they want :D

Recently I've just been getting so angry with the stupidity of those in power. All the things that encourage people to stop working and screw the system. It's as if everyone but those in power know what to do. :mad::mad::mad:

Zebra3

DWCommuter wrote: »

M50 toll bridge causes chaos for years. A private company milks it for nearly 2 decades (with a Government blessing) and then gets paid off. The Government maintain the toll. Our bus services are poor. Our rail service is a joke. The luas just stole bus passengers. Its extensions are at the whim of developers and not commuters. Transport 21 was drawn up by politicians and civil servants that know nothing about public transport or commuting. The Navan railway project should be on the X-Files, while the WRC is beyond the X-Files! The inter urban roads are 4 years behind schedule. Metro North is seen as a panacea just because it was Government policity since 2000. The Interconnector, sorry, "DART UNDERGROUND" is becoming a fantasy playgroup for jaded planners in Inchicore , while our "Government" plays for time before the inevitable kick to touch that our near 20 billion deficit will require.

Meanwhile the financially defunct peasants of Ireland hardly bat an eyelid. While Im at it how can the red cow interchange be "freeflow" if there are lights regulating the Ballymount road upper junction? And is it true to say that all the cash we spent on it, isn't worth a beer mans fart, (to out bound traffic) because Newlands Cross still has lights?

Im looking at things that I don't fully understand and at things that I do. But Im still seeking those answers.:D

(Just back from "the continent" and **** me, its a lesson in how its done.)

Each and everyone of us should hang our heads in shame.

The vast majority of points you make are correct, however, I'm always bemused by the phrase "developer led" when it comes to things like extensions to the Luas. If developers are prepared to foot the bill for an extension to public transport to serve a (future) higher density area, what's the problem?

And while trains may be fantatstic in many parts of "the continent", the service/expense in many parts is appalling. Try travelling across northern Spain by train. It's an absolute nightmare. Try travelling through Denmark by train and see how it hits your wallet. It might have a higher cost of living than here, but the cost of public transport is just shocking.

MOH

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

A recent Mercer study showed that Ireland's infrastructure and public transport is among the best in the world...

Nope, that was Mercer's quality of living report - Dublin came 25th in that (out of 215).

Dublin doesn't even appear in the top 50 in the accompanying report on city infrastructure.

Link

Calina

May I voice an opinion?

One of the things that appalled me when I came back here 10 years ago was how little was considered to be great. I arrived back to a 1 billion euro investment package in Irish Rail.

Irish Rail had been under invested for years. 1 billion euro was, at best, going to be sticking plasters at that stage. We were supposed to believe that this was going to lead to miracles. How could it?

But they have upped their game. I don't necessarily like the way they have done everything but their punctuality is a big bit better than it was 10 years ago, they have reasonably decent new trains although I don't necessarily like every feature of them. Their online reservation and ticket collection system works.

Dublin Bus has also improved a lot. But it is very heavily hamstrung again, by factors outside its control. We need improving services, not deteriorating services. What we are getting, however, are deteriorating services.

These decisions are not necessarily made by the transport companies themselves, but implemented. The decisions are made higher up.

There is a tendancy in this country which pretty much amounts to "do as little as you can possibly get away with until your back is at the wall and then panic". Sometimes that work. The M50 is actually getting to be less stressful for me, the M7/N7 to Limerick has improved monumentally. As I've mentioned, there has been a big jump in improvement on the trains over the situation 15 years ago.

But, really, this is not the most efficient way of doing things. Ideally you plan ahead and act accordingly - an example here might be very high speed broadband to which Comreg seem to be assuming it's not all that necessary - we just don't do that here.

How we change things I am not really sure yet. I know we've a bundle of lobby organisations but if debates on here are anything to go by, a lot of ire is misdirected. We like things to be simple so we can be for or agin them. But the Civil War is long gone, and the world is rarely that simple.

We've made horrendous mistakes here. I was in Spain last week however, and believe me, they've made some horrific errors there too.

The problem is, because we have comparatively short term political mandates - say 5 years - and we are not attracting the right people to politics, and we the people want quick solutions, we don't have a practice of looking towards the long term.

Dublin Airport is building a big new terminal. At some stage, it might have been wiser to look at the location of Dublin Airport and query whether it might have been worth moving it to somewhere with a little more room to expand and where it can be more easily fitted onto the rail and road networks.

We are building motorways along existing roads instead of considering whether some of these could not be point to point rather than a series of bypasses built haphazardly.

I don't, per se, have an issue with tolls, M50 or otherwise. I do have issues with the way the collection side was set up. It's too complex.

The other thing I will say is that when I got back here and voiced some concern that things could be done better, I was told to go back to where I came from if it was so much better.

This is hardly a constructive attitude but hell in 1999 it was common.

Metrobest

Zoney wrote: »

10 years ago I took bus trips on bangers with bench seating that belched black smoke out the back. You almost exclusively travelled on winding country roads with poor surfaces even on the "interurbans". The trains were more unreliable than today, and often you had ancient carriages (admittedly these were comfortable if heating was working). Today I can book my train ticket online with a seat reservation, and indeed cheap fare if I travel off-peak. The M50, as bad as the toll booths were and as dodgy as all of West Dublin development has been, I can well remember how messy things were with no M50!
.

If anything, the intrastructure gap between Ireland and counties like France, Spain, Holland and Germany is actually worse now than it was 10 years ago. While Ireland has been phasing out banger buses, continental Europe has been building new roads, metro lines, high speed rail and introducing innovations that have made public transport a more user-friendly experience.

When you consider the astonishing economic boom Ireland experienced, it's almost scarcely believable that Dublin is not now benefiting from a world-class public transport system including more tram, metro and reliable bus lines; and that Dublin is not linked to Belfast on a fully-electified high speed line. The fruits of the economic boom were wasted on paying people ridiculous salaries in world's worst public service while Dublin was allowed develop into an unsustainable traffic-plagued nightmare.

The problem that has dogged Ireland for decades is the sheer lack of ambition. Dublin could and should be a world city that would act as a magnet to draw in the talented global Irish diaspora, but instead it's a dirty, unplanned, socially segregated city, unattractively wealthy in some parts and unattractively poor in many others. The transport system is so bad that a reasonably good tram line (luas) attracts more passengers than the Dart. Everything the state owns is staggeringly unproductive and outmoded. And there's too much pandering to special interests, whether that be developers in Lucan, tree huggers in Wicklow, or the conservationist lobby.

I think, though, that with the right leadership the country could change. But unfortunately it's hard to see that coming down the track given the political landscape today....

vandermeyde

Metrobest wrote: »

If anything, the intrastructure gap between Ireland and counties like France, Spain, Holland and Germany is actually worse now than it was 10 years ago. While Ireland has been phasing out banger buses, continental Europe has been building new roads, metro lines, high speed rail and introducing innovations that have made public transport a more user-friendly experience.

When you consider the astonishing economic boom Ireland experienced, it's almost scarcely believable that Dublin is not now benefiting from a world-class public transport system including more tram, metro and reliable bus lines; and that Dublin is not linked to Belfast on a fully-electified high speed line. The fruits of the economic boom were wasted on paying people ridiculous salaries in world's worst public service while Dublin was allowed develop into an unsustainable traffic-plagued nightmare.

The problem that has dogged Ireland for decades is the sheer lack of ambition. Dublin could and should be a world city that would act as a magnet to draw in the talented global Irish diaspora, but instead it's a dirty, unplanned, socially segregated city, unattractively wealthy in some parts and unattractively poor in many others. The transport system is so bad that a reasonably good tram line (luas) attracts more passengers than the Dart. Everything the state owns is staggeringly unproductive and outmoded. And there's too much pandering to special interests, whether that be developers in Lucan, tree huggers in Wicklow, or the conservationist lobby.

I think, though, that with the right leadership the country could change. But unfortunately it's hard to see that coming down the track given the political landscape today....

wow, that was a rant and a half.

In fairness a hell of a lot of work has been done over the last 15 years, not particularly joined up thinking for the most part, but this city is a gleeming urban oasis compared to the city that was on show in the likes of The Commitments circa the early 90's.

godtabh

Metrobest wrote: »

And there's too much pandering to special interests, whether that be developers in Lucan

any examples?

Gruffalo

DWCommuter wrote: »

M50 toll bridge causes chaos for years. A private company milks it for nearly 2 decades (with a Government blessing) and then gets paid off. The Government maintain the toll. Our bus services are poor. Our rail service is a joke. The luas just stole bus passengers. Its extensions are at the whim of developers and not commuters. Transport 21 was drawn up by politicians and civil servants that know nothing about public transport or commuting. The Navan railway project should be on the X-Files, while the WRC is beyond the X-Files! The inter urban roads are 4 years behind schedule. Metro North is seen as a panacea just because it was Government policity since 2000. The Interconnector, sorry, "DART UNDERGROUND" is becoming a fantasy playgroup for jaded planners in Inchicore , while our "Government" plays for time before the inevitable kick to touch that our near 20 billion deficit will require.

Meanwhile the financially defunct peasants of Ireland hardly bat an eyelid. While Im at it how can the red cow interchange be "freeflow" if there are lights regulating the Ballymount road upper junction? And is it true to say that all the cash we spent on it, isn't worth a beer mans fart, (to out bound traffic) because Newlands Cross still has lights?

Im looking at things that I don't fully understand and at things that I do. But Im still seeking those answers.:D

(Just back from "the continent" and **** me, its a lesson in how its done.)

Each and everyone of us should hang our heads in shame.

That is a fair argument, now what are we going to do about it?

How would Derek Wheeler improve the situation?

DWCommuter

Gruffalo wrote: »

That is a fair argument, now what are we going to do about it?

How would Derek Wheeler improve the situation?

You can read about it in my forthcoming book, "Tie me to the tracks" - The story of an Irish railway lobbyist.

Plug over.

Gruffalo

DWCommuter wrote: »

You can read about it in my forthcoming book, "Tie me to the tracks" - The story of an Irish railway lobbyist.

Plug over.

Are you serious?

I genuinely would like to read your ideas.

DWCommuter

Gruffalo wrote: »

Are you serious?

I genuinely would like to read your ideas.

Apologies. My original response was perhaps a little coarse. Yes I'm serious. The idea was put to me a year ago as something to consider for the future. But due to the rapid downturn in our financial situation, it has been brought forward, so its busy busy busy at the moment. There's an awful lot of work involved and its early days, so you'll appreciate that I can't say much more as certain people have still to be interviewed. I was asked to become involved in an alternative rail lobby and was tempted, but I think the book is a more worthwhile project.

I guess the cat is out of the bag now.:D

Judgement Day

Hi Derek - Put me down for a copy! Or maybe I'll swap you a copy of my forthcoming book on preservation 'Twenty wasted years' or perhaps thirty (?) - can't decide on the title!

ihatewallies

DWCommuter wrote: »

M50 toll bridge causes chaos for years. A private company milks it for nearly 2 decades (with a Government blessing) and then gets paid off. The Government maintain the toll. Our bus services are poor. Our rail service is a joke. The luas just stole bus passengers. Its extensions are at the whim of developers and not commuters. Transport 21 was drawn up by politicians and civil servants that know nothing about public transport or commuting. The Navan railway project should be on the X-Files, while the WRC is beyond the X-Files! The inter urban roads are 4 years behind schedule. Metro North is seen as a panacea just because it was Government policity since 2000. The Interconnector, sorry, "DART UNDERGROUND" is becoming a fantasy playgroup for jaded planners in Inchicore , while our "Government" plays for time before the inevitable kick to touch that our near 20 billion deficit will require.

Meanwhile the financially defunct peasants of Ireland hardly bat an eyelid. While Im at it how can the red cow interchange be "freeflow" if there are lights regulating the Ballymount road upper junction? And is it true to say that all the cash we spent on it, isn't worth a beer mans fart, (to out bound traffic) because Newlands Cross still has lights?

Im looking at things that I don't fully understand and at things that I do. But Im still seeking those answers.:D

(Just back from "the continent" and **** me, its a lesson in how its done.)

Each and everyone of us should hang our heads in shame.

you should anyway. if you like it so much there go and live there.
pure paddyology.

Calina

ihatewallies wrote: »

you should anyway. if you like it so much there go and live there.
pure paddyology.

Banned.

Merch

carlmango11 wrote: »

When things like this happen in a country, realistically, what can you do? I really want to know what the French would do, they know how to fight their government for what they want :D

Recently I've just been getting so angry with the stupidity of those in power. All the things that encourage people to stop working and screw the system. It's as if everyone but those in power know what to do. :mad::mad::mad:

I know this is off track, and I'm sure its just the way that part of your post sounds, I'm not inclined to think everyone wants to stop working and screw the system, as a recently (this year) unemployed person I also am so angry, in part as I hung on as long as possible and tried to stay employed when I would have been entitled to JB if I packed it in, instead now only been told I am entitled to nothing! and disheartened to what I hear is been given out to counselers.
I still think people are entitled to something bar the drunks I saw today complaining about their " bleedin is dole late 2 weeks,whats the story"

Regarding the posts, FF, 5 years, short term view, narrow minded cute hoors, amatuer politicians, an almost intentional attitude to not educating people about the political system so it seems relevant and understandable to ordinary people to the point they feel it has no bearing on their lives.
Maybe then they'd see the faults in it and vote changes in.

Schuhart

DWCommuter wrote: »

I agree and disagree. There are those who are bothered, but they tend to get smothered by those who justify and play into the hands of the "system" through nothing more than self indulgence, ego and a very confused approach to using their vote.

Indeed, I think you're right to bear in mind that the reason Zanu FF hold power is because people vote for them in large numbers. Using Occam's Razor, the most obvious explanation is that people vote for the party that gives them what they want. I'm not saying that's the right explanation - just that it needs to be seriously considered before being discounted.

That said, there is also some evidence of a disconnect between the voting process and what government ends up doing. I follow and contribute to discussions on politics.ie a bit. One of the things I've noticed is how you'll have threads that concentrate on what you'd expect to be matters of importance - banking crisis and whatever. But if you visit some of the threads about the local elections (or any past elections) at the constituency level there's still an awful lot of the 'O'Gombeen can be expected to poll very well around Naas, but the other crowd are running a terrible risk in having two candidates with a Newbridge base thus splitting their vote' as if the actual content of the party programmes, or their record in office, where actually quite minor affairs.

But whatever motivates people to vote, we do have to acknowledge that the reason Bertie Ahern was Taoiseach for so long (and the reason the most likely alternative to Brian Cowen is Enda Kenny) is because that's what the electorate have freely chosen.

Calina wrote: »

Dublin Airport is building a big new terminal. At some stage, it might have been wiser to look at the location of Dublin Airport and query whether it might have been worth moving it to somewhere with a little more room to expand and where it can be more easily fitted onto the rail and road networks.

I think the general point you make is valid enough, but this element struck me as wrong. Dublin Airport actually has plenty of space for expansion, as there was some foresight in that individual case (however that happened). What might reward study is how our main airport ended up with a runway too short to take long-haul jets. The upshot seems to be that we’ll end up with a larger terminal that we now won’t need, but without the runway that might help to fill it.

In fact, considering how resources were allocated to airports illuminates why Irish politics can frequently be like the property market. All that matters is location, location, location. It doesn’t matter what most of the staff of the Legal Aid Board do, if anything, so long as they do it in Cahirciveen.

Again, it comes back to how the act of voting in Ireland seems to be almost an uncontrolled spasm. I haven’t a damn clue what people get up to when they’re marking that ballot. But its hard to relate to making serious choices about how the country’s affairs might be managed.

DWCommuter wrote: »

You can read about it in my forthcoming book, "Tie me to the tracks" - The story of an Irish railway lobbyist.

Chalk up another sale. Sounds like the perfect Christmas present. (And I'm not kidding).

Gruffalo

DWCommuter wrote: »

Apologies. My original response was perhaps a little coarse. Yes I'm serious. The idea was put to me a year ago as something to consider for the future. But due to the rapid downturn in our financial situation, it has been brought forward, so its busy busy busy at the moment. There's an awful lot of work involved and its early days, so you'll appreciate that I can't say much more as certain people have still to be interviewed. I was asked to become involved in an alternative rail lobby and was tempted, but I think the book is a more worthwhile project.

I guess the cat is out of the bag now.:D

No apology necessary.

Best of luck with it. I look forward to reading it.

D'Peoples Voice

When you consider one of the most commonly used statement by our politicians is "All politics is local" you understand why Ireland is the way it is today!


Aside: should that not be "are local" if politics is a plural?

corktina

local policians? Just had a hopefull candidate call whilst i had my head under the bonnet of my car...."Nice Motor" says he..."would be if it ran " I said...."oh whats wrong with it ?" was his answer......

well if I knew that!!!!!

btw there was SIX of them...5 of whom never said a word....

DWCommuter

corktina wrote: »

local policians? Just had a hopefull candidate call whilst i had my head under the bonnet of my car...."Nice Motor" says he..."would be if it ran " I said...."oh whats wrong with it ?" was his answer......

well if I knew that!!!!!

btw there was SIX of them...5 of whom never said a word....

They're like the "Men in Black".:D

DWCommuter

Schuhart wrote: »

Indeed, I think you're right to bear in mind that the reason Zanu FF hold power is because people vote for them in large numbers. Using Occam's Razor, the most obvious explanation is that people vote for the party that gives them what they want. I'm not saying that's the right explanation - just that it needs to be seriously considered before being discounted.

That said, there is also some evidence of a disconnect between the voting process and what government ends up doing. I follow and contribute to discussions on politics.ie a bit. One of the things I've noticed is how you'll have threads that concentrate on what you'd expect to be matters of importance - banking crisis and whatever. But if you visit some of the threads about the local elections (or any past elections) at the constituency level there's still an awful lot of the 'O'Gombeen can be expected to poll very well around Naas, but the other crowd are running a terrible risk in having two candidates with a Newbridge base thus splitting their vote' as if the actual content of the party programmes, or their record in office, where actually quite minor affairs.

But whatever motivates people to vote, we do have to acknowledge that the reason Bertie Ahern was Taoiseach for so long (and the reason the most likely alternative to Brian Cowen is Enda Kenny) is because that's what the electorate have freely chosen. I think the general point you make is valid enough, but this element struck me as wrong. Dublin Airport actually has plenty of space for expansion, as there was some foresight in that individual case (however that happened). What might reward study is how our main airport ended up with a runway too short to take long-haul jets. The upshot seems to be that we’ll end up with a larger terminal that we now won’t need, but without the runway that might help to fill it.

In fact, considering how resources were allocated to airports illuminates why Irish politics can frequently be like the property market. All that matters is location, location, location. It doesn’t matter what most of the staff of the Legal Aid Board do, if anything, so long as they do it in Cahirciveen.

Again, it comes back to how the act of voting in Ireland seems to be almost an uncontrolled spasm. I haven’t a damn clue what people get up to when they’re marking that ballot. But its hard to relate to making serious choices about how the country’s affairs might be managed. Chalk up another sale. Sounds like the perfect Christmas present. (And I'm not kidding).

What a coincidence. I do believe I'm reading a copy of your debate on Aine Brady's blog circa 2007 re. Platform 11's stance on a few matters. Hopefully she'll settle into the minister for state job and spare the rest of us her ill-informed press releases on local transport matters.;)

popebenny16

derro cant wait for my appointment for the interview :cool:

you already know my basic position. i am a layman. i use trains a lot, i drive a lot. i use the luas and the bus a lot.

what is this about? simple. its about moving human beings form a to b.

that's it, nothing more complicated than that, really. once you have grasped that nettle, when you actually realise that is all you have to do, then and only then can you plan.

so, why is the bus routes in dublin lined out on the basis of the tran lines we pulled up 50 years ago?

why are most train services still sticking to the same timetable as 100 years ago?

why do we see 120 buses being taken off the road in dublin instead of a big push to take people out of their cars to fill them?

how come i only realised there was a bus at 3 am from dublin to roscrea because i was buying a roll in a shop and if i wasn't i would never have found out??

is simple.

it is joined up thinking - we dont have it. we have camps, all they care about is what is happening inside their camp, and if you try to invade their space they will react. they will stiffen up, go ridgid, not do anything.

Right, we are now with our backs to the wall. I heard one camp decrying metro north, who said that the spending on it is a waste. why/

you will love this: There is no point in spending billions to attract jobs that may never come.

sounds familier?

what about dublin bus and bus eirnann???

here is their logic. We want to save money... we want to be in profit. We have an option. 1 is to seek to attract people to our service. 2, admit our service is rubbish and cut it.

they go for 2!!!!
what, exactly , is the cut off point? Will BAC decide to cut all bus services as they are still making a loss??

isnt this the sort of "we wont cut off our nose desppite our face" stuff we heard last august when the government were saying "we learnt the lessons of the 80's!!! we wont make the same mistakes again!"

but they are, and they will.

I wonder what the aborted oireachtas committee inquiry into the mini CTC project would have, ahem, unearthed. What else has been buried???

it is easy to speculate.

but what to do, what to do???

We need to attract, we need to be like a blue light in a butchers shop. If london had an interocnneter, we need one, no bull, just frackin build it because if we dont Boris will tell everyobe he has one and we dont.

finish the bloody motorways and bloody fast. the scandal of the N7/8 cannot be repeated.

we need guanranteed rail services at a min of 100 mph at a freq of 2 hours - and 1 hour dublin to cork and belfast - from 6 am to 10 pm. no quaters given and taken, that is it.

we need a DART to be frakkin Rapid and running at 5 mins. In 1997 i brought a russian friend to connolly on a sunday.... he was, in a stoic russian manner, amazed at the fact that the DART was running every 20 mins..... it still is!!!

we need surbubann trains running every 20 mins.

oh and finally, and i am sorry mr and mrs green... we need the whole frackin network electrified and we need a nuclear power station!!!

the very idea of buying diesel trains in an era when peak oil is upon us is national scuicide.

but we live in an era of not looking beyound the next balance sheet.... and if you do not believe that you aint been reading the last two budgets.

(and i have not event mentioned broadband....)

givyjoe81

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

A recent Mercer study showed that Ireland's infrastructure and public transport is among the best in the world...

Eh what infastructure.. and what public transport?! We have the most shocking haphazard cobbling together of disconnected modes of transport in the Western World.. Seriously, have you been outside of Ireland to another major city! Im not having a go at you, but dont take everything you read as gospel!

Schuhart

DWCommuter wrote: »

Hopefully she'll settle into the minister for state job and spare the rest of us her ill-informed press releases on local transport matters.;)

Ah, Aine Brady, why does that name ring a bell?

OK-Cancel-Apply

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Eh what infastructure.. and what public transport?! We have the most shocking haphazard cobbling together of disconnected modes of transport in the Western World.. Seriously, have you been outside of Ireland to another major city! Im not having a go at you, but dont take everything you read as gospel!

Huh? I regularly use Irish Rail and I never had a significant problem with it. Go online, book ticket, use ticket, take train, get off train. You can even buy a single ticket to take you on the Dart, Luas and Intercity train. What else to you want? The driver to make you tea and give you a massage? Or a train that stops outside your house?

Yes I've been all over the world, and the grass as green as you think. Maybe you could point to another country's public transport and tell me exactly what's so earth shatteringly better? Don't forget, most of the time, when we experience foreign public transport, it's only a brief 'passing through' experience. Chances are everything will be fine.

givyjoe81

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Huh? I regularly use Irish Rail and I never had a significant problem with it. Go online, book ticket, use ticket, take train, get off train. You can even buy a single ticket to take you on the Dart, Luas and Intercity train. What else to you want? The driver to make you tea and give you a massage? Or a train that stops outside your house?

Yes I've been all over the world, and the grass as green as you think. Maybe you could point to another country's public transport and tell me exactly what's so earth shatteringly better? Don't forget, most of the time, when we experience foreign public transport, it's only a brief 'passing through' experience. Chances are everything will be fine.

Brief passing through my ass.. the amount of time over about 15 years of my life that have been wasted waiting for buses that show up late or not at all. Sure we have the Luas which is great, but we have TWO tracks for christ sake, which aren't even interconnected!

I cant say have ever used the trains to be honest, but I hear of endless complaints of overcrowding for a start. Honestly how on earth you can say we have anything other than a shocking transport system is beyond me. Have you ever relied on Dublin Bus with regularity? Which the majority of dublin commuters without cars have to rely on.. Total disaster, end of..

What do other cities have?! Eh a reliable transport system.. An underground for a start. How many english cities have em never mind London. Paris excellent underground system, as does Barcelona and New York. And in comparison we have dublin bus..:rolleyes:

Metrobest

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Huh? I regularly use Irish Rail and I never had a significant problem with it. Go online, book ticket, use ticket, take train, get off train. You can even buy a single ticket to take you on the Dart, Luas and Intercity train. What else to you want? The driver to make you tea and give you a massage? Or a train that stops outside your house?

Yes I've been all over the world, and the grass as green as you think. Maybe you could point to another country's public transport and tell me exactly what's so earth shatteringly better? Don't forget, most of the time, when we experience foreign public transport, it's only a brief 'passing through' experience. Chances are everything will be fine.

This is a joke!
You must be a Fianna Fail spin doctor if you think there's anything good about trains and buses in Ireland. Every time I have a brief 'passing through' experience with public transport in Ireland I remind myself why it is I don't live there. Just to point out a few things...
- Intercity trains that stop in the Portarlington metropolis
- Trains that stop at random points on tracks with no announcements
- Rip-off ticket prices (in relation to service)
- A "few minutes late is good enough" attitude to punctuality
- Too many jobs-for-life staff, often rude

If the grass isn't greener in other countries, it's not because Ireland's public transport system matches up, it's because Ireland gets more rain!

OK-Cancel-Apply

Yep, you got me...Fianna Fail spin doctor here.

Everyone thinks their own country's public transport is sub par. Especially in Ireland. I used to complain like everyone else, but as soon as a took off the "everything is worse in Ireland" goggles, I realised that it wasn't that bad. Things are improving all the time - I haven't experienced lateness that often in the last few years (and yes, I rely on Dublin Bus).

I was waiting for a bus in England and it was 15 mins late, but I didn't condemn the whole system because of it. You know the saying, "You wait an hour for a bus and then 2 show up at once" - that wasn't invented in Ireland.

The reality is, people are quick to complain, and some will never admit when things improve. In my opinion, grumpiness and bitter negativity is a far greater problem in this country than any issue we may have with public transport.

AlekSmart

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Brief passing through my ass..

What do other cities have?! Eh a reliable transport system.. An underground for a start. How many english cities have em never mind London. Paris excellent underground system, as does Barcelona and New York. And in comparison we have dublin bus..:rolleyes:

And My next question to the Londoner,Parisian,Barcelonan or New Yorker would be...."Hey Joe,how much Local Taxation do you pay"
"Hey joe,how much is your domestic rates bill this year ?"
"Hey Joe,How much is your Community Charge this year?"

The Grass IS Greener on the continent,but only because Johnny Foreigner has always been required to PAY for it.
As a result the continental systems work in a joined up and seamless manner ......best defined as being due to the understanding of the term Common or Greater Good....I`m sorry people,but the lowest common denominator principle beloved of Irish Public Transport administrators has brought us to where we are today !!

dermo88

Aleksmart

I do agree on the local taxation issue, but local taxation on the continent is far lower than the United Kingdom or the United States for that matter. But this fails to account for the fact that we pay a lot more for healthcare for example.

We also have a problem with trust. The legacy of the Haughey years have been pernicious and they trickle through to this very day. If we don't trust. we don't pay. If we don't pay theres no accountability. The move in 1977 to take away local taxation was a political masterstroke.

It ensured that a whole generation of corrupt cronies and politicians could pillage and loot, and never be called to account for it, or that the occasional token head would roll. This is because we have the likes of Denis O'Brien doing business with Michael Lowry, and we end up with some small problems with cable ploughing on Iarnrod Eireann's permanent way. This is why Liam Lawlor "disappeared" in Moscow, and it suited Fianna Fail to blame the Russian Mafia when his own people likely did it to keep his mouth shut. The same with Michael McDonnell of CIE, why did he commit suicide, when he had a good life. Wa he threatened as well? The same with Ray Burke, and the links to the cronies go higher than that. Fianna Fail are a mafia, and they blame Sinn Fein when they are no better themselves. The difference is, Fianna Fail has money, they have links to cronies, they have power, and they turn a blind eye. No doubt I will annoy the moderators by my implications, but I am willing to edit that should they wish.

And I am ashamed to say that I wanted them to win the 2007 election, because I wanted them to clean up the economic mess they would inherit from themselves. Sadly, can we honestly say that it would turn so toxic so fast?

This is because we have the likes of suicides on account of a Dail investigation into CIE and Iarnrod Eireann. Not naming anyone, and even mentioning that is in bad taste. But covering it up is worse.

Generally people in Ireland don't give two hoots for local elections. The perception is that the councils are full of bone headed idiots with no talent whatsoever save for family and business connections. Its a gravy train and no more.

Thats why noone pays, or wants to pay. Liam St John Devlin summed it up in 1974:

"In England, the passenger pays, in Europe the taxpayer pays, but in Ireland, noone pays"

For this reason, I believe Irelands costs are imbalanced and skewed towards consumption taxes which affect the lowest earning segment harder than any other country I know, and there is a huge gap in land taxation. Land taxation is taxed in a haphazard "one off" manner, where it should be taxed in a long term cash-flow manner, where there is a residential land allowance per person of (say) 25 square meters per person, before the surplus above that is taxed, with an additional taxes based on the rental valuation of homes in the area. This would give a fair tax and a constant cashflow to the exchequer, but noone dares bite the bullet and do taht.

It would also enable Ireland to reduce or remove other stealth taxes, enable a reduction in wages to take place so that the economy would be competitive again.

But that won't happen until its too late, and its not as if we have a Military Dictator or an Iron Lady in the wings ready to take the hard decisions.

And this recession, we will pay, but will it be the catalyst that leads to proper accountability and functioning services, particularly when we rose to the heights we did.

mikemac

dermo88 wrote: »

This is why Liam Lawlor "disappeared" in Moscow, and it suited Fianna Fail to blame the Russian Mafia when his own people likely did it to keep his mouth shut.

That was a car crash

Conspiracy Theories forum is that way

---

>

dermo88

It costs $50,000 to get someone bumped off in Russia. When Millions in unpaid taxes are likely to be uncovered, its worthwhile. It costs even less to bribe the police to cover it up.

Zoney

The irony is that here in Ireland, it is not that "no-one pays". We all pay individually far more than we would if there were proper taxation with proper services provided. And as dermo pointed out, our "system" is disproportionately harsh on the poor (it's so bad that it is the reason that people on a decent wage compared to other European countries, are poor here - and thats despite being outside the tax net, again unlike other countries).

AlekSmart

it ensured that a whole generation of corrupt cronies and politicians could pillage and loot, and never be called to account for it, or that the occasional token head would roll. This is because we have the likes of Denis O'Brien doing business with Michael Lowry, and we end up with some small problems with cable ploughing on Iarnrod Eireann's permanent way. This is why Liam Lawlor "disappeared" in Moscow, and it suited Fianna Fail to blame the Russian Mafia when his own people likely did it to keep his mouth shut. The same with Michael McDonnell of CIE, why did he commit suicide, when he had a good life. Wa he threatened as well? The same with Ray Burke, and the links to the cronies go higher than that. Fianna Fail are a mafia, and they blame Sinn Fein when they are no better themselves. The difference is, Fianna Fail has money, they have links to cronies, they have power, and they turn a blind eye. No doubt I will annoy the moderators by my implications, but I am willing to edit that should they wish.

Dermo88,I would be surprised and disappointed if the Mods took fright at your sentiment,for it lists what are essentially facts....it`s only the reasoning behind them thats open to conjecture.

The late Michael McDonnell was one of the few senior CIE executives who appeared to have a perception of what was happening to the group in financial terms and was moving to deal with that situation (as in accountability for DSFA "Free Travel" railway journies).

The sad and lonely manner of his death left so many questions unanswered as to did Liam Lawlors passing in what we are told was a "Car Crash".

However Dermo88,you are SO correct in your timeline here.....

The move in 1977 to take away local taxation was a political masterstroke.

This,to me,represents the beginning of the end for any principle of equitable self-governence in Ireland.
The political masterstroke engineered by Dr Martin O Donoghue (Where is HE now) laid the groundwork for generations of people who really did believe money grew on trees.
Abolish Rates.
Abolish Motor Tax.
If ever there was a Vote Winner here be it....and the scary thing is,if Dr O Donoghue were to once more walk amongst us scattering his wisdom we would vote the exact same way !!!! :eek:

Calina

I am considering moving this over to Politics. I will check back in one hour's time to see if it still spouting political conspiracy theories or has gone back to the substantive issue of how we could perhaps change Irish apathy towards government transport policy.

Dermot88 - We do not need to know how much it costs to get a professional hit in Russia. It's off topic for this thread and forum as are conspiracy style theories regarding dead politicians.

AlekSmart, any more back seat moderation trying to pre-empt what I or any moderator might think about how this thread is progressing and you will get a holiday from Commuting and Transport.

Propellerhead

So folks, here's a challenge.

Let's think of magic ways commuting can be transformed without changing our political masters.

I know - here's some posters from Transport for London that are really effective.



Now, isn't that sort of thing much more effective than questioning our masters?

:rolleyes:

Metrobest

Calina wrote: »

I am considering moving this over to Politics. I will check back in one hour's time to see if it still spouting political conspiracy theories or has gone back to the substantive issue of how we could perhaps change Irish apathy towards government transport policy.

Dermot88 - We do not need to know how much it costs to get a professional hit in Russia. It's off topic for this thread and forum as are conspiracy style theories regarding dead politicians.

AlekSmart, any more back seat moderation trying to pre-empt what I or any moderator might think about how this thread is progressing and you will get a holiday from Commuting and Transport.

Seems a little heavy-handed, this kind of moderation....
Maybe Calina needs a holiday too

Metrobest

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

The reality is, people are quick to complain, and some will never admit when things improve. In my opinion, grumpiness and bitter negativity is a far greater problem in this country than any issue we may have with public transport.

You are right to a certain extent. There have been improvements in transport in Ireland. The Aircoach is an excellent service. And the motorways, as far as they go, are a major step forward.

My gripe is more about how public transport in Ireland is run. I understand that with the population densities of the island, we're not going to have a national rail network like the Netherlands.

But a city the size of Dublin should have a transport system on a par with cities like Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Valencia, Cologne, Antwerp or Brussels. We shouldn't have to settle for a second rate system. So yes, we have to keep complaining. It's the only way to keep the bstrds honest.