Squat depth

flogen

I finally bought Starting Strength and have been reading through the squat section.

I've still not ventured into the squat rack - partly because my gym only has one and it's always in use but mainly because I'm nervous about form.

What I've found so far is that I can't get past or even to parallel without losing balance backwards. I've tweaked my foot placement to see if that's the problem but it never gets close no matter what I do.

I know people here before said adding the weight should provide the right counter-balance to allow me to push it deeper but the first thing SS recommends is that you get your form right without a weight.

I'll try and get a video up in the near future to see if that helps people to help me but I'm wondering if people can advise me on what I can do to improve depth without a weight (stretches or some kind of general advise that might be a common mistake).

I really don't want to put that bar on my back until I can be sure my form is right.

Thanks.

Hanley

It might be as simple as leaning forward more!!

Without a vid, it's hard to say. Put something small under your heels, might help as well.

DM-BM

Can you get into the position in the pictures on page 14?

Gator

Best piece of advice I got ( as I used to ark my lower back and nearly fall back) was to pretend your were going to sit on the jacks.

Worked for me, give it a shot and see does it help

rubadub

flogen wrote: »

what I can do to improve depth without a weight (stretches or some kind of general advise that might be a common mistake).

I did some high step ups today, just stood alongside a table and put one leg up on it, then stood up with a little kick to get going, then slowly descended down. My leg was bent almost as much as it would go.

I am going to do them weighted next, I liked them a lot. I tired pistol (1 leg) squats before and found them really hard, not only strengthwise but balance too.

rubadub

flogen wrote: »

what I can do to improve depth without a weight (stretches or some kind of general advise that might be a common mistake).

I did some high step ups today, just stood alongside a table and put one leg up on it, then stood up with a little kick to get going, then slowly descended down. My leg was bent almost as much as it would go.

I am going to do them weighted next, I liked them a lot. I tired pistol (1 leg) squats before and found them really hard, not only strengthwise but balance too.

kevpants

I know I can't really get depth with just a bar. I also find being warmed up helps alot. My first few warmup squats with just the bar are embarrassingly high.

What might help you feel better about your form would be goblet squats, the weight is to the front and should counterbalance to allow you sink in a bit.

After that just get into the rack with a bar on your back and go though the verbal queues as you squat.

<descending>
Break at the hips

Knees out

Elbows forward

Chest up

<ascending>
Elbows forward

Chest up

Knees out

Push through the heels

Spread the floor


I still go through these queues in my head when I squat, it's instinct now. At the start it feels very jerky and deliberate and sometimes you'll forget to keep your chest up and lose it a bit forward but it's part of learning.

cardio,shoot me

thanks for that kevpants, i learned the break at the hips here, might learn that whole thing now

flogen

DM-BM wrote: »

Can you get into the position in the pictures on page 14?

After a lot of straining and stretching in the gym this evening I can just about get it - at least I think I can... hard to see for certain.

I can't get my arms fully inside my knees either - but my elbows are touching off my knee caps.

Gator wrote: »

Best piece of advice I got ( as I used to ark my lower back and nearly fall back) was to pretend your were going to sit on the jacks.

Worked for me, give it a shot and see does it help

Thanks - will give that a go!

kevpants wrote: »

I know I can't really get depth with just a bar. I also find being warmed up helps alot. My first few warmup squats with just the bar are embarrassingly high.

What might help you feel better about your form would be goblet squats, the weight is to the front and should counterbalance to allow you sink in a bit.

After that just get into the rack with a bar on your back and go though the verbal queues as you squat.

<descending>
Break at the hips

Knees out

Elbows forward

Chest up

<ascending>
Elbows forward

Chest up

Knees out

Push through the heels

Spread the floor


I still go through these queues in my head when I squat, it's instinct now. At the start it feels very jerky and deliberate and sometimes you'll forget to keep your chest up and lose it a bit forward but it's part of learning.

That's great, thanks,.

I actually ended up trying a goblet squat with a small enough weight... it certainly did counter-balance me but I suppose the weight is much further forward than it would be in a bar squat.

One problem I found with it was that my forearms would hit off my knees at the bottom - in some ways it was good because it ensured my knees were staying out but at the same time it kind of made things a bit awkward.

I also felt it quite a lot in my lower back, which from what I gather shouldn't happen (maybe I'm wrong). I had done a deadlift before it so that might explain it but I may have been doing it wrong too and will follow your queues next time.. thoughts?

Thanks again.

brianthebard

move your feet and knees out a little so your elbows slide down past your knees, that's pretty must where you want them when squatting normally. Goblet squats seem like you're leaning forward more than a back squat, but I think its just because you pull your shoulders forward with the gb, rather than back, along with your chest, as in the bs. If you round your lower back a lot at the bottom of the gs you'll feel it, was it an uncomfortable feeling though or just something you associate with deadlifts? did it last long afterwards?

j@utis

if you decided to go very low mind this: http://swiftonline.com/crossfit/archives/540 so called "butt wink". It happened to me and my back was angry at me for over a week!

Beau

j@utis wrote: »

if you decided to go very low mind this: http://swiftonline.com/crossfit/archives/540 so called "butt wink". It happened to me and my back was angry at me for over a week!

Yeh I thought I was some man getting really low and then some dude said I was doing this. Its very tough to fix.

accensi0n

j@utis wrote: »

if you decided to go very low mind this: http://swiftonline.com/crossfit/archives/540 so called "butt wink". It happened to me and my back was angry at me for over a week!

Cheers for this.
I've started getting lower back pain during squating.

This might be the cause. I'll have to tape myself and check.

kevpants

Keeping your chest up and elbows forward should fix the butt wink too. It's not natural for the lower back to round if your chest is out and up and your elbows are shoved forward. Rippetoe dismisses the butt wink as something that just happens and isn't a big deal. He's wrong, the reason her and his students do it all the time is because he preaches to keep your elbows back and it's too late to change his philosophy now.

The Goblet squat will put pressure on your lower back simply because the weight is out in front and you lower back is trying to keep you straight while the weight pulls the other way. It's also easier to round your lower back (butt wink) while doing it but it's no harm to learn to counter that with the weight to the front, might make it easier to counter in the back squat.

Don't worry about the aching feeling you will get in your lower back from squatting at first. Those muscles do a lot of supporting and get fatigued just like your quads etc so you will feel it. Lower back muscle fatigue is quite uncomfortable but you'll learn that it feels very very different to injury.

DM-BM

kevpants wrote: »

Keeping your chest up and elbows forward should fix the butt wink too. It's not natural for the lower back to round if your chest is out and up and your elbows are shoved forward.

How do you think elbow position is going to fix but wink?

Do you not think hamstrings over powering spinal erectors is a far more likely cause?

flogen

brianthebard wrote: »

move your feet and knees out a little so your elbows slide down past your knees, that's pretty must where you want them when squatting normally.

So my elbows should pretty much glide off but not really touch my knees in a goblet? I think it should only take a slight widening to resolve that.

Goblet squats seem like you're leaning forward more than a back squat, but I think its just because you pull your shoulders forward with the gb, rather than back, along with your chest, as in the bs. If you round your lower back a lot at the bottom of the gs you'll feel it, was it an uncomfortable feeling though or just something you associate with deadlifts? did it last long afterwards?

More of an uncomfortable feeling that went a second or two after I stopped the reps - my back isn't sore today or anything.

kevpants wrote: »

Keeping your chest up and elbows forward should fix the butt wink too. It's not natural for the lower back to round if your chest is out and up and your elbows are shoved forward.

I think I found it hard to keep my chest out / shoulders back with the goblet squat just because of the way I had to hold the weight - will focus more on that aspect next time and I imagine it's easier to do this with the bar on your back because of the way your arms go.

The Goblet squat will put pressure on your lower back simply because the weight is out in front and you lower back is trying to keep you straight while the weight pulls the other way. It's also easier to round your lower back (butt wink) while doing it but it's no harm to learn to counter that with the weight to the front, might make it easier to counter in the back squat.

By round do you mean having your shoulders ahead from the middle of your back or behind?

[quote[Don't worry about the aching feeling you will get in your lower back from squatting at first. Those muscles do a lot of supporting and get fatigued just like your quads etc so you will feel it. Lower back muscle fatigue is quite uncomfortable but you'll learn that it feels very very different to injury.[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

kevpants

DM-BM wrote: »

How do you think elbow position is going to fix but wink?

Do you not think hamstrings over powering spinal erectors is a far more likely cause?

If your chest is pushed up and elbows pushed forward you should not butt wink, if your hams aren't flexible enough you just won't achieve the same depth but keep the proper lower back position. You won't be able to butt wink to depth if you get me. It's very difficult to have your upper back arched with your chest forward and then round your lower back in the opposite direction.

You're dead right though if you aren't flexible enough you are either going to wink or you're going to squat high. The way to improve flexibility is to keep squatting with proper form and you'll get there.

kevpants

Arching is what happens to your back when you reach for the ceiling.

Rounding is what happens when you reach for the floor.

DM-BM

kevpants wrote: »

If your chest is pushed up and elbows pushed forward you should not butt wink, if your hams aren't flexible enough you just won't achieve the same depth but keep the proper lower back position. You won't be able to butt wink to depth if you get me.

I don't agree with you here kevpants, a lot of people butt wink to depth regardless of elbow position, especially when starting out. A lot of people are not able to control there lower back, it's not strong enough, they think its locked tight at the bottom of a squat when its actually rounded.
I don't think its just a hamstring flexibility issue, but a hamstring strength/flexibility verses lower back strength and overall awareness of what these muscles are doing at the bottom of the squat.

kevpants wrote: »

It's very difficult to have your upper back arched with your chest forward and then round your lower back in the opposite direction.

It's difficult to do it intentionally, but not so difficult to do it, if your back is not strong enough to deal with your hamstrings, or your hamstrings are tight.

kevpants wrote: »

You're dead right though if you aren't flexible enough you are either going to wink or you're going to squat high. The way to improve flexibility is to keep squatting with proper form and you'll get there.

Agreed.

Nate--IRL--

On the subject of flexibility and warming up for the squat, I've found that performing the "Third World Squat" ( http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_thirdworld_squat ) every day after mild cardio invaluable to my squat form, flexibility to perform the squat and recovery afterwards.

Nate

kevpants

DM-BM wrote: »

I don't agree with you here kevpants, a lot of people butt wink to depth regardless of elbow position, especially when starting out. A lot of people are not able to control there lower back, it's not strong enough, they think its locked tight at the bottom of a squat when its actually rounded.

The elbow position isn't they key here it's the chest/upper back. If your upper back is solidly arched with your scaps pulled together your chest will be out and up. I defy you to do this and simultaneously round your lower back. I guarantee that to round your lower back you will relax your upper back / drop your chest.

Keep the upper back tight and I don't reckon you can even force a butt wink.

I can't anyway! Unless my physiology is unique in this respect.

DM-BM

Yeah, but I think that some people starting out get pulled out of position, they can't keep their back upper or lower under the level of control necessary.

I don't think that you are phyisologically different, but I bet you have a much stronger back than those who have a butt wink problem.

kevpants

DM-BM wrote: »

Yeah, but I think that some people starting out get pulled out of position, they can't keep their back upper or lower under the level of control necessary.

I don't think that you are phyisologically different, but I bet you have a much stronger back than those who have a butt wink problem.

True.

I think we're saying the same thing really. If you aren't flexible enough the only way to get depth is to lose all form. I just think when squatting you have enough to remember, form wise, and that it you can just concentrate on keeping your upper back shape your lower back should follow suit.

Now I only know this from personal experience, maybe someone with a knowledge of how the spine works can fill me in? Can you arch your upper back and round your lower back simultaneously? Is it possible for the spine to do that?

If it is then I hold my hands up that I might be wrong on this one.

Jonny303

Thought id hi-jack this thread instead of starting a new one.

am i correct in sayinf there is no such thing as too deep on a squat?

few weeks back i cut 30kg's off what i was squatting to really hit my form, and now squatting with my ass approx 6 inches from the ground. i cant see this being a problem, would it?

Hanley

Jonny303 wrote: »

Thought id hi-jack this thread instead of starting a new one.

am i correct in sayinf there is no such thing as too deep on a squat?

few weeks back i cut 30kg's off what i was squatting to really hit my form, and now squatting with my ass approx 6 inches from the ground. i cant see this being a problem, would it?

Only if your lower back is rounding and you're popping up on your toes!

floggg

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

On the subject of flexibility and warming up for the squat, I've found that performing the "Third World Squat" ( http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_thirdworld_squat ) every day after mild cardio invaluable to my squat form, flexibility to perform the squat and recovery afterwards.

Nate

That's a good article. I've been giving it a try over last two days. I'm at the hold onto the door handle or fall over stage, so flexibility isn't great. My knees feel very sore/stiff after doing though. Is this normal/bad?

VinnyTGM

They say that to get the form right in squats you have to go heavy, and to go heavy you have to get your form right.
Tall people with longer legs usually have to have there knees in front of their feet.

Beau

hey would you guys mind checking my form? I think I might be doing that but wink thing, I was told I was so I took a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3O3pCeoCYM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3O3pCeoCYM

Hanley

Beau wrote: »

hey would you guys mind checking my form? I think I might be doing that but wink thing, I was told I was so I took a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3O3pCeoCYM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3O3pCeoCYM

Fixed your imbedding there. It's only the part after the equals (=) that goes between the tag.

Hanley

On the squat itself...

Looks good enough.
-Depth's a bit hit and miss, some are below parallel, some are at it.
-Small degree of butt wink, tho it's hard to tell from that angle really.
-The bar's too high on your neck imo, a bit further down your back would be better

Good squatting tho, but next time try to get a side on angle if you can. Make's critiquing (sp?) easier.

And a point forward for everyone posting squat vids... or any form check vid... try to do so with near limit weights. 85-90% like. It's only when you get up around there that form breakdowns become obvious (of course if your form is REAAAALLLLY bad it'll be obvious earlier, but most of the vids have been from guys with good form so it's hard to give a proper analysis).

kevpants

Hanley wrote: »

The bar's too high on your neck imo, a bit further down your back would be better

+1

The lower bar position would probably allow you to get more depth anyway. I'd also just say to concentrate on breaking at the hips first and pushing your ass back rather than sinking straight down.

Good stuff though. Loads of strength there!

Beau

Great thanks guys I'll give those things a try next time.