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Proposed Blasphemy Law

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    #362
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Article in Today's IT.
    getz wrote: »
    i still [even more now] believe this blastphemy law has been introduced ,because the irish goverment knew that the child abuse report,would cause serious problems for the catholic church-the idea if people start saying anti/catholic statements we can take action under the blastphamy act-and we all now know by now,that the church has the goverment under its control-by its passed record
    That would probably make you one of the "fantasy conspiracy theorists" Ahern refers to in his recent comments.

    Vitriol directed at the catholic hierarchy would not fall under blasphemy law for a start.


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    #363
    RAMADAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭RAMADAN


    Zillah wrote: »
    I really don't think we should criminally prosecute people for drawing comics, regardless of how absurdly reactionary Muslims are.

    I think that if *some* Muslims had their way, drawing comics would the least of our worries. Wasn't there a report recently that a majority of Irish Mulsims wanted Sharia law to obtain in this state?

    The blasphemy law is risible, but those against it should it take it sufficiently seriously to challenge it. There will be an undeniable chilling effect on free speech if it is passed. Religious ideologues all over the country will want the law used every thime they feel slighted.


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    #364
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    This guy Aherne is an idiot.

    First he says this, where he clearly illustrates the choice.

    As a republican, my personal position is that church and State should be separate,” he said. “But I do not have the luxury of ignoring our Constitution. So, as Minister for Justice I faced a choice – referendum or reform.”

    And then he says he doesn't have a choice.

    “Until the Constitution is amended, it is necessary that blasphemy remain a crime and that the relevant legislation must make provision for punishment of this crime. There is no alternative to this position.”

    Have a feckin referendum and put it with the changes for the Child Protection.
    This is not rocket science.


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    #365
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Zamboni wrote: »
    And then he says he doesn't have a choice.

    “Until the Constitution is amended, it is necessary that blasphemy remain a crime and that the relevant legislation must make provision for punishment of this crime. There is no alternative to this position.”

    Have a feckin referendum and put it with the changes for the Child Protection.
    This is not rocket science.

    Or another possible solution would be to keep it a crime just for simplicities sake but have the punishment a 1c fine. €100,000 is taking the piss


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    #366
    pts
    Registered Users Posts: 576 ✭✭✭pts


    A small update, looks like the fine was cut to €25 000 (from the Irish Times)

    I particularly like the last part:
    The Irish Times wrote:
    The fact that the legislation will “be unworkable” is “the classic Irish solution to an Irish solution,” said Mr Flanagan.


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    #367
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    as per the Times today:
    Irish Times wrote:
    Mr Ahern said the legislation, which passed its committee stage in the Dáil yesterday, has been drafted to “make it virtually impossible to get a successful prosecution [for blasphemy] out of it”.


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    #368
    eightyfish
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭eightyfish


    The Irish Times wrote:
    MINISTER FOR Justice Dermot Ahern is to cut proposed fines for blasphemy from €100,000 to €25,000, under changes to be made to the Defamation Act next week.
    The Irish Times wrote:
    Mr Naughten said the legislation will be impossible to enforce because it is entirely subjective, and it could threaten Ireland’s future economic interests.

    Then why €25,000? Why not €25? If it's impossible to enforce why not make the fine 3 bags of Smarties and a slap? This is crazy!

    1) It shall be illegal to to X.
    2) If 1 is broken, the fine will be Y.
    3) In all circumstances, 1 and 2 shall not apply.


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    #369
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I agree, this is Ahern trying to back away from the criticism by making the monetary amount lower. It should be just abolished, end of. He's so unwilling to just attach a piece of paper to the back of Lisbon II, it's not that hard surely? It actually might boost the turnout for the Lisbon II vote too.


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    #370
    eightyfish
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭eightyfish


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It actually might boost the turnout for the Lisbon II vote too.

    Totally agree that it should be added to the referendum. My only slight worry would be that it would give the Christian "No to Lisbon, abortion, gay marriage and everything else" crowd more ammunition to link Lisbon to an attack on "Christian values".


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    #371
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    eightyfish wrote: »
    Totally agree that it should be added to the referendum. My only slight worry would be that it would give the Christian "No to Lisbon, abortion, gay marriage and everything else" crowd more ammunition to link Lisbon to an attack on "Christian values".

    I don't agree with your assumption. Not all Christians are opposed to the Lisbon Treaty. I personally think that people should be entitled to have their own views on abortion and gay marriage if they want to be. By and large, every single Christian I have discussed this blasphemy law with, do not care about it particularly much. Most oppose it. There is really no more ammunition to be had.


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    #372
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I agree with eightyfish. The problem is one of "association". The yes/no swing for Lisbon II is going to be narrow, so anything that might put off certain demographs should be avoided.


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    #373
    eightyfish
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭eightyfish


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Not all Christians are opposed to the Lisbon Treaty.

    Oh, I don't mean all Christians. Most Christians are nice people. I'm talking about the crowd who campaign against everything, the crowd that said that a vote for Lisbon is a vote for abortion. Them's the crazies.


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    #374
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    eightyfish wrote: »
    I'm talking about the crowd who campaign against everything, the crowd that said that a vote for Lisbon is a vote for abortion/. Them's the crazies.
    Them's the crazies who are organizing a "March for Life" this Saturday in Dublin. More on that here and here.

    Apparently god is due to rain on this parade.


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    #375
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    Dades wrote: »
    I agree with eightyfish. The problem is one of "association". The yes/no swing for Lisbon II is going to be narrow, so anything that might put off certain demographs should be avoided.



    i disagree the latest lisbon opinion polls have shown a huge increase in the number of people for the treaty

    roughly 50% yes, 20% no and 30% don't know.

    lisbon will pass next time.


    Blasphemy law (with a fine of 100,000) could have been the solution to our economic circumstances! The DPP could prosecute all religious groups in the country for being blasphemous to all other religious groups thus netting the state hundreds of millions!


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    #376
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    robindch wrote: »
    Apparently god is due to rain on this parade.

    Don't be silly, the rain is for the pro-choicers :pac:


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    #377
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    bleg wrote: »
    i disagree the latest lisbon opinion polls have shown a huge increase in the number of people for the treaty
    Hey, I hope you're right and I'm wrong!


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    #378
    apoch632
    Registered Users Posts: 357 ✭✭apoch632


    http://twitter.com/MickNugent

    Its a sad day.


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    #379
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Just the senate to get through now...


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    #380
    Bougeoir
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭Bougeoir


    This is absolutely disgraceful! I Hate this government especially Dermot Ahern - he's a stupid idiot! Grrr! :mad: They didn't even allow for a debate on it. Great so I'm guessing the Senate will approve it and then the president will have to sign it and voilà it's in law! And then if you say anything bad about religion due it's "sacredness" you may be held libel having to go to court, pay a huge fine and having your house raided by the Gardaí and we all know who the first ones will be, the Muslims because they just love blasphemy laws! You say Mohammed and boo they're out in force!

    Ok rant over, Blasphemy Ireland are meeting in Wynn Hotel between 2pm and 5pm on Saturday regarding the Blasphemy bullshít. So if anyone's free, attend and bring friends. This is just ridiculous, I'm fuming!!! :mad::mad::mad:


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    #381
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Would a blasphemy case really hold up in court when this is passed?


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    #382
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    eoin5 wrote: »
    Would a blasphemy case really hold up in court when this is passed?
    In reality? I can't ever see it happening.

    Unless someone was making a concious and very public effort to tick all the required boxes.


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    #383
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Dades wrote: »
    In reality? I can't ever see it happening.

    Unless someone was making a concious and very public effort to tick all the required boxes.

    You mean like Atheists Ireland are doing?


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    #384
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Dades wrote: »
    In reality? I can't ever see it happening.

    Unless someone was making a concious and very public effort to tick all the required boxes.

    +1
    Causing outrage in a substantial number of adherents of a religon and, more particularly, intending that outrage, are likely to be extraordinarily high hurdles to cross.

    The DPP is unlikely to ever take a case and a jury is unlikely to ever convict.

    Stoopid law for this and other reasons.


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    #385
    TheManWho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 264 ✭✭TheManWho


    How would they pick a jury in such a case, would people from the blasphemed religion be omitted.


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    #386
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Same way they pick any jury.
    Both sides can dismiss a number of jurors for cause and some for no cause.
    Pretty sure you cant question jurors as to their religous beliefs or about much actually, certainly not like they do in the US.


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    #387
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    If I were rich and more bored I would deliberately tick all the boxes to force a test case on this law and throw more lawyers and secular advocacy groups at this ridiculous administration than they knew what to do with.


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    #388
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Zillah wrote: »
    If I were rich and more bored I would deliberately tick all the boxes to force a test case on this law and throw more lawyers and secular advocacy groups at this ridiculous administration than they knew what to do with.

    Atheist Ireland are having a public meeting where they're doing just that. I think it's on Saturday

    edit:

    Yup, http://blasphemy.ie/
    Atheist Ireland AGM will plan a response to this blasphemy law, between 2-5pm this Saturday in Wynns Hotel Dublin


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    #389
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Are Atheist Ireland planning to try and breach the blasphemy laws or something?

    That's what's suggested in this thread, though I can't find an official word on it anywhere. Sounds like a very ill-advised idea if it was the case. Not the way to get believers on your side.


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    #390
    eightyfish
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭eightyfish


    Not a jot about this on any of the radio news this morning, as far as I heard.


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    #391
    GhostInTheRuins
    Registered Users Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    eightyfish wrote: »
    Not a jot about this on any of the radio news this morning, as far as I heard.

    It was on the radio early this morning (I think it was newstalk). A guy from atheist Ireland said they were planning to get a statement printed with the intention of causing as much offence to as many people as possible.


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