HSE settles case with IMO and 6 NCHDs

drzhivago

Just heard from a buddy
HSE has settled case with IMO and 6 NCHDs today, not sure if it was settled in court or out of court

Costs awarded to IMO and NCHDs

No changes to NCHD contracts until after December 2009

Period of intense negotiation on working hours problems and separate negotiations on all other contract issues

Total costs of court case around €1 million apparently as a result of Mr Sean McGraths whim. what chance he will still keep his job despite the costs and despite the fact that 2 months later they are still to go back to the same place to negotiate with the same people only now they have lost 8 weeks negotiating time

sam34

great news. fair play to those nchds who stuck their necks out

drzhivago

sam34 wrote: »

great news. fair play to those nchds who stuck their necks out

Yes we all owe them big time

wonder what it felt like waiting to give evidence

Have some friends who are lawyers who would run a mile rather than appear in court as witness themselves

DrIndy

good stuff - will watch the papers tomorow

sam34

DrIndy wrote: »

good stuff - will watch the papers tomorow

u gonna change your mind and stay put, indy?

drzhivago

DrIndy wrote: »

good stuff - will watch the papers tomorow

I seriously doubt it will get any coverage because the HSE will not want it highlighted what happened and they spend serious bucks on advertising

sam34

drzhivago wrote: »

I seriously doubt it will get any coverage because the HSE will not want it highlighted what happened and they spend serious bucks on advertising

just watched the nine o clock news headlines - it wasnt in headlines but might be on later in bulletin.

surely the IMO will put it out there though?

drzhivago

sam34 wrote: »

u gonna change your mind and stay put, indy?

ah go on go on go on

DrIndy

lol - i'm off on monday!

sam34

DrIndy wrote: »

lol - i'm off on monday!

and you didnt post a forum-wide invite to teh going away party??

pfft.
some mod you are

drzhivago

DrIndy wrote: »

lol - i'm off on monday!

sure you have to stay for the fireworks now

6 weeks of contract talks, brings me back to 2000,97 and 95 all over again

The smell of sweat in a res room as tempers flare when the deal is explained

MCgraths head on a plate in every res in the country sure what more could you want

Jane5

Good on those 6 NCHDs! We all owe them big time and thanks to them all. Fair play. They have not only protected our working conditions but also the conditions the patients are treated in and have ensured that, for now, at least, the quality of care NCHDs provide does not slip.
:):):):)

Traumadoc

Anyone know what happens in July? Is there going to be a new contract? Or a contract for July only and a new contract in August?

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

Anyone know what happens in July? Is there going to be a new contract? Or a contract for July only and a new contract in August?

Contracts continue as is with respect to training grant/allowances etc

Needs to be some move to reduce hours by August hence the intensive negotiation period on hours stuff from what I have heard, wont need contractual change really but will need a lot of work from NCHDs regarding rotas/rosters details for each hospitals to develop working models to identify where hours can and cant be reduced

They need to work out rosters on a per hospital basis and none of this guff about national templates, you cant spend 4 weeks arguing the toss about semantics among a group of people who dont knwo whats its like to work in portlaois, tullamore, navan, cavan or anywhere else outside M50

drzhivago

Jane5 wrote: »

Good on those 6 NCHDs! We all owe them big time and thanks to them all. Fair play. They have not only protected our working conditions but also the conditions the patients are treated in and have ensured that, for now, at least, the quality of care NCHDs provide does not slip.
:):):):)

That might be taking this a little far dont think any of this had to do anything with quality but nice sentiment

protecting future training, until december anyway

Presume we will get a missive by email from IMO tomorrow

Those that are members that is

sam34

DrIndy wrote: »

good stuff - will watch the papers tomorow

drzhivago wrote: »

I seriously doubt it will get any coverage because the HSE will not want it highlighted what happened and they spend serious bucks on advertising

just sat through the entire nine o clock news and there wasnt a word about it.

drzhivago

sam34 wrote: »

just sat through the entire nine o clock news and there wasnt a word about it.

Are you surprised

All you will hear is the email from the IMO

Remember how McGrath was on every radio show justifying what he was doing to NCHDs and how he was going to save the whole HSE based on savings from rich and greedy NCHDs

what bets he wont be on any show to justify the huge spend on the court case not to fight the court case at all but to settle!!!!!

drzhivago

sam34 wrote: »

just sat through the entire nine o clock news and there wasnt a word about it.

have been checking with media buddies
they said there is a press release going round

he will post to me shortly

sam34

drzhivago wrote: »

Are you surprised

All you will hear is the email from the IMO

Remember how McGrath was on every radio show justifying what he was doing to NCHDs and how he was going to save the whole HSE based on savings from rich and greedy NCHDs

what bets he wont be on any show to justify the huge spend on the court case not to fight the court case at all but to settle!!!!!

of course mcgrath will go to ground, thats to be expected.

but, imo, the IMO should be putting this out there, and doing their best to combat the greedy doctor spin from the HSE. their silence was deafning when all this blew up a few weeks ago.

Vorsprung

Report in Today's IT

HSE to withdraw plans to cut doctors' overtime

MARTIN WALL and MARY CAROLAN

THE HEALTH Service Executive (HSE) is to withdraw controversial plans to reduce overtime and allowances for non-consultant hospital doctors in return for a strict timetable for the introduction of new rosters and an overall new contract.

The row over the cutbacks is to be fully resolved at the High Court today. As part of the proposed deal, the Irish Medical Organisation (IMO) will enter into negotiations on the introduction of new rosters for non-consultant hospital doctors by July. Such rosters would be in compliance with the European Working Time Directive and limit the working week, on average, to 48 hours.

Separately, the parties would agree to enter into negotiations on a new contract for non-consultant hospital doctors to be introduced by Christmas. It is understood that the proposed deal allows for binding arbitration if necessary.

Under the proposed deal all existing agreements between the parties would lapse if no agreement on a new contract was reached by the end of the year.

Six doctors, along with the IMO, had brought proceedings claiming a breach of contract by the HSE.

RobFowl

The indo and Irish examiner have nothing at all about it. Very poor form :mad:

Even irish health.com, IMN and Irish medical news don't mention it .

The HSE government have an awesome capacity to spin and bury stories they don't like

drzhivago

RobFowl wrote: »

The indo and Irish examiner have nothing at all about it. Very poor form :mad:

Even irish health.com, IMN and Irish medical news don't mention it .

The HSE government have an awesome capacity to spin and bury stories they don't like

email I was forwarded on today


Media Release 28 April, 2009

IMO and HSE Negotiate High Court Settlement

Following the institution of a High Court action by the Irish Medical Organisation, the HSE have settled proceedings on foot of discussions between both parties’ legal teams in the High Court today 28th April 2009.
Under the agreement, all NCHD terms and conditions of employment are to be honoured and remunerated in full by the HSE with immediate effect.

The HSE and the IMO have agreed to a standstill period to continue to 31 December 2009, during which the terms and conditions of existing contracts of NCHDs shall not be altered unilaterally by the HSE.

The agreement provides for a process of negotiation in relation to issues arising from the implementation of the Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997 this process to be conducted under the Labour Relations Commission with provision for binding arbitration by the Labour Court or other nominated third party. It is agreed that these discussions be completed by 1 July 2009.

In relation to all other contractual issues for NCHDs, the agreement provides a similar process of negotiation under the LRC to be concluded by 31 December 2009.

Both parties agreed that the National Implementation Body would be asked to oversee the entire process.

The HSE has agreed to pay substantial costs of the Irish Medical Organisation.

ends

Prime Mover

drzhivago wrote: »

The HSE has agreed to pay substantial costs of the Irish Medical Organisation.

ends

More taxpayers money down the drain and by someone we paid over the odds to recruit.

That HR director should be sacked immediately.

drzhivago

Prime Mover wrote: »

More taxpayers money down the drain and by someone we paid over the odds to recruit.

That HR director should be sacked immediately.

I second that

drzhivago

RobFowl wrote: »

The indo and Irish examiner have nothing at all about it. Very poor form :mad:

Even irish health.com, IMN and Irish medical news don't mention it .

The HSE government have an awesome capacity to spin and bury stories they don't like

if you see the stories that have been written its a completely different spin again

Doctors get to keep their overtime

Nothing about allowances/training grants etc

sportswear

im not sure about this

does this mean that we are basically swapping shift work for money?
because i'd prefer not having to do the shift work.

Also what so you think they will offer the interns of 2009 in July?

Vorsprung

This is just going to push the crap a bit further down the road. This was always going to be a battle NCHDs were gonna win, and it was a bit idiotic of McGrath to try to fight it. The real battle is the new contract negotiations. And unfortunately, a brain drain could easily be on the cards if the HSE-EA don't wise up.

Vorsprung

sportswear wrote: »

im not sure about this

does this mean that we are basically swapping shift work for money?
because i'd prefer not having to do the shift work.

Also what so you think they will offer the interns of 2009 in July?

Don't forget to forward your contracts to the IMO for a quick once over before you sign them.

drzhivago

sportswear wrote: »

im not sure about this

does this mean that we are basically swapping shift work for money?
because i'd prefer not having to do the shift work.

Also what so you think they will offer the interns of 2009 in July?

sportswear wrote: »

im not sure about this

does this mean that we are basically swapping shift work for money?
because i'd prefer not having to do the shift work.

Also what so you think they will offer the interns of 2009 in July?

Your employer can roster you in what way the see fit, you are applying for a job get offered the job and have very little control over how your hours are scheduled

To date we have been led to believe that we have where in reality we dont

the controlling factor in this to date has been consultants work patterns and the requirement to be proximate to your supervisor hence the rostering matching consultant working hours

Now consultants have agreed to change working hours employers will want NCHDS to do likewise

The argument then becomes a monetary one and what value is placed on this (if any in these current times)

No oen mentioned shift yet and there are many patetrns of shift work not just what yous ee in A&E

If you dont want to do shifts then the answer appears simple dont work or work in a medicla area where it wmay not be required
Pathology/public health/community health ? GP

As a hospital employee you may find that your perceived control of your hours will be vey different shortly

Regarding the Interns there is nothing special in the case about them, they are employees like teh rest, will have top work like the rest, may be doing shiftwork like the rest, have same legal obligations as teh rest

The difference with interns is that they are regulated by medical council and thus medical council will have to be happy with their rostering arrangements vis-a-vis experience and supervision

Amnesiac_ie

This is great news but what's with the minimal media coverage? I must congratulate the IMO and the six brave NCHDs who took this action which has served us all so well.

I sincerely hope that BOTH sides; the HSE and our representatives in the IMO will engage in real negotiation over the new contracts in the coming months. The era of not showing up for meetings and stubbornly refusing to budge on certain issues has to end.

Is it too much to think that by working together and having an open and frank dialogue both sides could contribute to new, more efficient contracts that could both save the health system money and protect training, working conditions and quality of life for NCHDs?

Although, if Fine Gael can implement their new health proposals anytime soon it won't be long before the ridiculousness of "one central contract" for psychiatrists, A&E docs, GP trainees and surgeons working in hospitals as different as Beaumont and Bantry General has come to an end. www.faircare.ie

Traumadoc

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

This is great news but what's with the minimal media coverage? I must congratulate the IMO and the six brave NCHDs who took this action which has served us all so well.

I sincerely hope that BOTH sides; the HSE and our representatives in the IMO will engage in real negotiation over the new contracts in the coming months. The era of not showing up for meetings and stubbornly refusing to budge on certain issues has to end.

Is it too much to think that by working together and having an open and frank dialogue both sides could contribute to new, more efficient contracts that could both save the health system money and protect training, working conditions and quality of life for NCHDs?

Although, if Fine Gael can implement their new health proposals anytime soon it won't be long before the ridiculousness of "one central contract" for psychiatrists, A&E docs, GP trainees and surgeons working in hospitals as different as Beaumont and Bantry General has come to an end. www.faircare.ie

What do you mean by "ridiculousness"?

drzhivago

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

This is great news but what's with the minimal media coverage? I must congratulate the IMO and the six brave NCHDs who took this action which has served us all so well.

I sincerely hope that BOTH sides; the HSE and our representatives in the IMO will engage in real negotiation over the new contracts in the coming months. The era of not showing up for meetings and stubbornly refusing to budge on certain issues has to end.

Come on where do you live airy fairy land.HSE negotiastors are paid 9-5, dont think about the task outside those hours, its not their money and the longer negotiations go on the more they justify their own job

IMO NCHDs have jobs too and do this in their own time. Put lots of outside work hours into this, have spoken to quite a few over the years

They get documenst at the end of a meeting, read them that night and come back in morning ready to negotiate

HSE take documenst away, come back in morning and then want time to read the documents

Makes a mockery of having a short negotiation period doesnt it

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

Is it too much to think that by working together and having an open and frank dialogue both sides could contribute to new, more efficient contracts that could both save the health system money and protect training, working conditions and quality of life for NCHDs?

Great statement and probably what IMO are looking for

What HSE looking for more hours for less pay and cheapen everything else, can forget all about training, working conditions and quality of life stuff

They dont really care

Remember our colleague who died at work in Cavan
Do you remember the long investigation into that!!!

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

Although, if Fine Gael can implement their new health proposals anytime soon it won't be long before the ridiculousness of "one central contract" for psychiatrists, A&E docs, GP trainees and surgeons working in hospitals as different as Beaumont and Bantry General has come to an end. www.faircare.ie

Not sure about that
didnt see anything about contracts in that

arguendo

How does this impact on Junior Doctors who qualified last week? My understanding is that the contract effective 1st July 2009 is for a 49 hour week, but additional unpaid hours will be worked, based on new rosters to be developed.

sportswear

but additional unpaid hours will be worked, based on new rosters to be developed

no thanks

Amnesiac_ie

Traumadoc wrote: »

What do you mean by "ridiculousness"?

I don't think there should be one contract for each NCHD position in the country. Different sized hospitals and different types of specialty make very different demands on individuals. I think different contracts should reflect this. A&E and the shifts they demand are quite different to the demands and workload of being a Psychiatry Reg in a large Psychiatric Hospital.

And as regards Fine Gael's health proposals; if the State does remove itself from the provision of health care and instead guarantees affordable health insurance for all than local hospital trusts and institutions will be free to negotiate individualised contracts with NCHDs.

The current contract we work under is a messy compromise that fails NCHDs in every specialty and fails the hospitals as well.

Amnesiac_ie

arguendo wrote: »

How does this impact on Junior Doctors who qualified last week? My understanding is that the contract effective 1st July 2009 is for a 49 hour week, but additional unpaid hours will be worked, based on new rosters to be developed.

I think the HSE might just finally have realised that no NCHD is going to work "unpaid hours" anymore.

drzhivago

arguendo wrote: »

How does this impact on Junior Doctors who qualified last week? My understanding is that the contract effective 1st July 2009 is for a 49 hour week, but additional unpaid hours will be worked, based on new rosters to be developed.

Guys
forget the hype
Forget what your friends who think they know are telling you

If you work you will be paid
Hours for EVERYONE will change because of the law
Interns will be no different to anyone else

New rosters will be developed as required by law but hours worked will be paid if not get on to IMO

As you have seen lately they are not afraid to use the forces of the dark side (law) against the even darker side (the HSE)

drzhivago

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

I don't think there should be one contract for each NCHD position in the country. Different sized hospitals and different types of specialty make very different demands on individuals. I think different contracts should reflect this. A&E and the shifts they demand are quite different to the demands and workload of being a Psychiatry Reg in a large Psychiatric Hospital.

And as regards Fine Gael's health proposals; if the State does remove itself from the provision of health care and instead guarantees affordable health insurance for all than local hospital trusts and institutions will be free to negotiate individualised contracts with NCHDs.

The current contract we work under is a messy compromise that fails NCHDs in every specialty and fails the hospitals as well.

Amnesiac I am sorry to disagree with you but in all my years working as an NCHD everyone feesl the stress of their own job is the worst and looks at other jobs as easy by comparison probably because they dont understand them

yes A&E is physically tasking and mentally very demanding, have done my fai share of them shifts and was doing shiftwork there when it wasnt paid as shifts and when overtime was paid at less than the basic hour but I still believed in a national contract and still do

If we move towards a banding system like in the UK there is an argument for work intensity payments but otherwise making a decision on whther someone is a physical danger to themselves or society is a significant one and occasiionally one where the wrong call is made. Just because the pace of the work appears slow it doesnt mean it is less serious or deserves less pay

Payment by results does not work for NCHDs because we dont have accountable units of work unlike consultanst, the buck does not stop with us

I would be grateful for your thoughts on how you feel people should get aid so taht i can feedback to my buddies in IMO and help them with their upcoming negotiations but I dont think different pay ates because you work ina big or small hospital will be on the cards from either side in this

But you never know

drzhivago

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

I think the HSE might just finally have realised that no NCHD is going to work "unpaid hours" anymore.

Interesting comment
have been getting calls from NCDHs today who have been claled into various hospitals regarding their hours submissions over the last few months and their paychecks

Tehy have been informed that on occasion due to technical or other oversights not all the monies they were due were paid, this is to be rectified in upcoming pay paths

It looks like the rats are leaving the sinking McGrath on this one

drzhivago

arguendo wrote: »

How does this impact on Junior Doctors who qualified last week? My understanding is that the contract effective 1st July 2009 is for a 49 hour week, but additional unpaid hours will be worked, based on new rosters to be developed.

While it is still free for you as technically you are still students when you dont have a job you should join the imo

Amnesiac_ie

drzhivago wrote: »

Amnesiac I am sorry to disagree with you but in all my years working as an NCHD everyone feesl the stress of their own job is the worst and looks at other jobs as easy by comparison probably because they dont understand them

yes A&E is physically tasking and mentally very demanding, have done my fai share of them shifts and was doing shiftwork there when it wasnt paid as shifts and when overtime was paid at less than the basic hour but I still believed in a national contract and still do

If we move towards a banding system like in the UK there is an argument for work intensity payments but otherwise making a decision on whther someone is a physical danger to themselves or society is a significant one and occasiionally one where the wrong call is made. Just because the pace of the work appears slow it doesnt mean it is less serious or deserves less pay

Payment by results does not work for NCHDs because we dont have accountable units of work unlike consultanst, the buck does not stop with us

I would be grateful for your thoughts on how you feel people should get aid so taht i can feedback to my buddies in IMO and help them with their upcoming negotiations but I dont think different pay ates because you work ina big or small hospital will be on the cards from either side in this

But you never know

It's not the pay-rate that I think is the problem with the common contract; it's the fact that different hosptials and different specialities require very different working hours and practices. Acute medicine will never be a 9am-5pm (or even 8am-8pm!) number whereas specialities such as Microbiology and Pathology can continue to be. I think a common contract is a very blunt tool given the hugely different work practices in different specialites and different sized hospitals.

I also think the HSe should be able to offer felxible or half time to NCHDs who want to work reduced hours. I know a lot of people, particularly parents of young children who would relish a couple of years of flexitime; allowing them to spend time with their kids yet continue active training.

The contract we have at the moment bears no resemblane to real life work practices in any specialty; 9am-5pm and 4pm on Fridays? I think whatever is negotiated should reflect the realities of the workplace and those realities differ greatly for different jobs.

I hope I haven't given the impression that I think some specialties are "worth" more or deserve higher pay; I simply think the contract we have at the moment is silly and by trying to suit all specialities and hospitals ended up being rather artificial and irrelevant to all.

drzhivago

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

It's not the pay-rate that I think is the problem with the common contract; it's the fact that different hosptials and different specialities require very different working hours and practices. Acute medicine will never be a 9am-5pm (or even 8am-8pm!) number whereas specialities such as Microbiology and Pathology can continue to be. I think a common contract is a very blunt tool given the hugely different work practices in different specialites and different sized hospitals.

I think you are mixing two concepts here
common contract ie terms and conditions related to employment AND premium pay for hours worked in unusual patterns

The blunt tool as you describe it refers to

• training grant
• diploma allowances
• living out allowance
• hepatitis vaccination
• travel expenses
• technology
• rostering arrangments
• pay rates for overtime

What we dont currently have is an appropriate structure to reward
Unsocial hours
night work
shift premia
night overtime

These are just payments and are only one part of the blunt tool, thus writing in proscribed terms regarding these payments into ALL contracts will still result in One contract

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

I also think the HSe should be able to offer felxible or half time to NCHDs who want to work reduced hours. I know a lot of people, particularly parents of young children who would relish a couple of years of flexitime; allowing them to spend time with their kids yet continue active training.

There is a flexitime scheme at present only open to SPR/SR because there were only 20 ringfenced funded posts, competitive application for them. was run by PGMDB who are no longer in existence so dont know if scheme still running

There is a general HSE flexi scheme but NCHDS dont apply because they believe schemes will look on it badly so chicken and egg

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

The contract we have at the moment bears no resemblane to real life work practices in any specialty; 9am-5pm and 4pm on Fridays? I think whatever is negotiated should reflect the realities of the workplace and those realities differ greatly for different jobs.

Be careful for what you ask for as it may come true might be a better PM topic

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

I hope I haven't given the impression that I think some specialties are "worth" more or deserve higher pay; I simply think the contract we have at the moment is silly and by trying to suit all specialities and hospitals ended up being rather artificial and irrelevant to all.

I dont think it is silly, I think NCHDs dont understand it and dont know how to ask for the terms of their contract to be applied to them for maximum benefit to them

drzhivago

drzhivago wrote: »

Just heard from a buddy
HSE has settled case with IMO and 6 NCHDs today, not sure if it was settled in court or out of court

Costs awarded to IMO and NCHDs

No changes to NCHD contracts until after December 2009

Period of intense negotiation on working hours problems and separate negotiations on all other contract issues

Total costs of court case around €1 million apparently as a result of Mr Sean McGraths whim. what chance he will still keep his job despite the costs and despite the fact that 2 months later they are still to go back to the same place to negotiate with the same people only now they have lost 8 weeks negotiating time

I cant believe there is so little discussion/debate/comment from the medics here about this case

This was the biggest threat that we have faced ever and it has ended like a damp squib

I wonder has Sean McGrath now got what he wanted a demoralised group who will be easy to push over

drzhivago

Upcoming IMO meetings to discuss settlement terms and way ahead


HSE AREA LOCATION VENUE TIME
Tuesday 5th May Southern, Cork, Jury’s Hotel, Western Road, Cork, 7pm,
Tuesday 5th May,Western, Galway, Meyrick Hotel, Eyre Square, Galway, 7pm,
Wednesday 6th May, Eastern, Dublin, Hilton Hotel, Charlemont Place, Dublin 2, 7pm,
Tuesday 12th May, Mid Western, ,Limerick, Marriot Hotel, Henry Street, Limerick, 8pm,
Tuesday 12th May, South East, , Waterford, Tower Hotel, The Mall, Waterford, 8pm,
Wednesday 13th May, North Eastern, Monaghan, Nuremore Hotel, Carrickmacross, Monoghan,8pm,
Wednesday 13th May, Midlands, Tullamore, Tullamore Court Hotel, Tullamore, Co Offaly, 8pm,
Tuesday 19th May, North Western, Sligo, Clarion Hotel, Clarion Road, Sligo, 8pm

DrIndy

drzhivago wrote: »

I cant believe there is so little discussion/debate/comment from the medics here about this case

This was the biggest threat that we have faced ever and it has ended like a damp squib

I wonder has Sean McGrath now got what he wanted a demoralised group who will be easy to push over

I think its mostly a sense of relief that is going around!

good work all the same for the IMO.

Prime Mover

drzhivago wrote: »

I cant believe there is so little discussion/debate/comment from the medics here about this case

This was the biggest threat that we have faced ever and it has ended like a damp squib

I wonder has Sean McGrath now got what he wanted a demoralised group who will be easy to push over

I think thats a bit harsh. It is great and fair play to those who brought the case. However it does just bring the situation back to square one again. There are still a lot of things that need to be sorted out and perhaps people are waiting to see how things progress?

For example, how are they going to get to EWTD hours if they are supposed to be cutting back on NCHDs in this "2 NCHD for 1 consultant post" plan. Whats going to happen to all the extra medical grads now in training? Will there be jobs and training posts for them?

I would like to see a better career path for NCHDs emerge out of the negotiations. Why is it in other countries doctors can become Attendings in 5/6 years on a dedicated training scheme whereas in Ireland it can take 15 years of transferring all around the country to become a Consultant?

Traumadoc

drzhivago wrote: »

I cant believe there is so little discussion/debate/comment from the medics here about this case

This was the biggest threat that we have faced ever and it has ended like a damp squib

I wonder has Sean McGrath now got what he wanted a demoralised group who will be easy to push over

I think everyone is demoralised at the moment, The HSE has introduced a whole new set of pay scales to consultants based on their previous pay rates ( geographic location) never agreed to in negotiations and very little is being said. Also agreed call out payments also not to be honoured , our training grant (1200 euro) also will not be increased as agreed.

drzhivago

Prime Mover wrote: »

For example, how are they going to get to EWTD hours if they are supposed to be cutting back on NCHDs in this "2 NCHD for 1 consultant post" plan. Whats going to happen to all the extra medical grads now in training? Will there be jobs and training posts for them?

I would like to see a better career path for NCHDs emerge out of the negotiations. Why is it in other countries doctors can become Attendings in 5/6 years on a dedicated training scheme whereas in Ireland it can take 15 years of transferring all around the country to become a Consultant?

I dont get the 2 for 1 deal when considering the hours as this will only result in longer hours

It makes sense when you look at Hanly Report as they need to reduce junior doc numbers

BUT there seems to be no link to medical student numbers so looks like they will be on their won in a few years

I doubt in these negotiations anything will happen regarding career path, the HSE dont care about that and dont have any control over it

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

I think everyone is demoralised at the moment, The HSE has introduced a whole new set of pay scales to consultants based on their previous pay rates ( geographic location) never agreed to in negotiations and very little is being said. Also agreed call out payments also not to be honoured , our training grant (1200 euro) also will not be increased as agreed.

dont think that is the case traumadoc
got an email from IMO where it shows rates are being paid

Traumadoc

There are different rates for type A for the 3 different regions in the spread sheet from the IMO I got.

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

There are different rates for type A for the 3 different regions in the spread sheet from the IMO I got.

Yes
just checked back to that
I was looking at the letter
Now I am really confused
Teh pay rates just dont add up to be honest

If someone stayed on Buckley (33hrs) they would earn more than someone going to B* and doing 37 hours

I thought the incentive was to change and become flexible

This looks like a mess to be honest and is now hyperconfused with the A/B/B*/C added in to the geographic and specialty mix

I think there is a mistake there as I read all the stuff as it came out of the contract negotiations and it looked as if the geographic stuff was gone