Something Not Right

Super-Rush

Just got off the phone with one of my mates and he told me that his little girls foot was run over by a van earlier on this afternoon. The police were called and the 16yr driver was able to produce a full license that he bought a few months ago. One of the guards called an ambulance for the girl and then gave the boy a telling off and told him he didnt want to see him on the road again and as there were no witnesses to the accident he said there was no point in taking a statement. Now i'm not one for pointing fingers or accusing anyone of anything unless i am 100% sure but there is definitely something not right with this. This boy was not arrested and is still in the area as he passed by in the van as i was coming home. What should my friend do about this. Who should he complain to. Ombudsman, seargeant?? Any help would be appreciated.

bryanmurr

get him to contact the guard to see what he's doin about it, he may be taking steps in dealing with it. cant arrest for no insurance, would have the expected the van be seized and the kid brought home and the JLO officer informed.

TheNog

super-rush wrote: »

Just got off the phone with one of my mates and he told me that his little girls foot was run over by a van earlier on this afternoon. The police were called and the 16yr driver was able to produce a full license that he bought a few months ago. One of the guards called an ambulance for the girl and then gave the boy a telling off and told him he didnt want to see him on the road again and as there were no witnesses to the accident he said there was no point in taking a statement. Now i'm not one for pointing fingers or accusing anyone of anything unless i am 100% sure but there is definitely something not right with this. This boy was not arrested and is still in the area as he padded by in the van as i was coming home. What should my friend do about this. Who should he complain to. Ombudsman, seargeant?? Any help would be appreciated.

how do you know the driver is 16?

Super-Rush

how do you know the driver is 16?

Because he lives three doors up from me...

Heres an update on this...there was actually a witness to the accident. When he saw what happened he ran over and in his own words 'i hit him a smack and took the keys because he was going to drive off'. This fella received a phone call from a private number telling him to mind his new car in case something happens to it.
The gardai came back half an hour ago and took the van away but the young lad is still at home.

Super-Rush

bryanmurr wrote: »

get him to contact the guard to see what he's doin about it, he may be taking steps in dealing with it. cant arrest for no insurance, would have the expected the van be seized and the kid brought home and the JLO officer informed.

He is 16 and had a fake driving license, so i'd imagine he could/should have been arrested

djtechnics1210

And what exactly would you like him to be arrested for...
the van wasn't stolen, he didn't leave the scene so its not hit and run, and id say the garda might not have known at time that the licence was a fake.

djtechnics1210

Since this matter is now under investigation i don't think an open forum is the right place to be discussing it.
If your friend feels like nothing is being done get him to ring sergeant and if no joy get onto ombudsman

Super-Rush

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

And what exactly would you like him to be arrested for...
the van wasn't stolen, he didn't leave the scene so its not hit and run, and id say the garda might not have known at time that the licence was a fake.

So having a fake driving license is not an arrestable offense?? Didn't know that but i stand corrected.

Turner

super-rush wrote: »

So having a fake driving license is not an arrestable offense?? Didn't know that but i stand corrected.

It is an arrestable offence but there is no need to arrest if you know who he is. All you would do would bring him to a station and release him immediately to an adult. A Garda station is no place for a child.

If he is under 18 he cannot be prosecuted unless he is red starred for prosecution, usually only if he a a serious offender.

If the child was injured he/she can take a civil case against the driver and/or claim off the mibi.

As Dj said, if your friend is not happy contact a sergeant or the ombudsman.

Super-Rush

Thank you for the replies

Whitewater-AGS

super-rush wrote: »

So having a fake driving license is not an arrestable offense?? Didn't know that but i stand corrected.

We dont need to arrest everyone, he can be brought before the court by means of a summons. Now i cant comment as to why he was not arrested but there could countless reasons for it. People have an obsession with this notion of arresting everyone.

Super-Rush

My main concern was that he was still out driving after this happened.

djtechnics1210

There's nothing to stop him driving tomorrow either though.
There are numerous people driving everyday that are disqualified, have no license insurance etc.
I know its terrible but unfortunately thats just the way it is.

Turner

In Ireland driving without a license or insurance is not an arrestable offence.

Gardai would love if it was.

Super-Rush

Even a fake one

bryanmurr

+1 Sing it from the mountain top!

Turner

super-rush wrote: »

Even a fake one

That is an arrestable offence. Its a false instrument. A minor offence.

Its the same as all J1 students get for going to america so they can buy drink in the over 21's states.

Have seen people getting anything from €30 to €150 fines for these in the courts.

As i said earlier if the person is under 18 they cannot be prosecuted. Only cautioned by a garda jlo officer.

meathstevie

Are you sure the age of criminal responsibility in Ireland is 18 ? I was under the impression the Children's Court is just a touch too busy for that to be the case.

djtechnics1210

Under childcare act, person under 18 is considered child and must be dealt with as such. I.e closed court room, name can't be reported, all cases have to be directed on by jlo and dpp. Age of criminal responsibility is 10-12 but not sure exactly.... Sorry

msg11

Chief--- wrote: »

In Ireland driving without a license or insurance is not an arrestable offence.

Gardai would love if it was.

Chief, not arrestable but driving without a license carries a fine, if you hold a license. Lets not forget.

meathstevie wrote: »

Are you sure the age of criminal responsibility in Ireland is 18 ? I was under the impression the Children's Court is just a touch too busy for that to be the case.

I say them Children in there are repeat offenders who have been threw the JLO system a few times and the DPP has stepped it up.

TheNog

msg11 wrote: »

Chief, not arrestable but driving without a license carries a fine, if you hold a license. Lets not forget.

If brought to a court it does carry a fine but either way the child still has to go through the JLO system unless the child has already been through the JLO office and is on the Red Star list. The Red Star list is juveniles who are automatically recommended for prosecution by the JLO office and therefore no JLO referral form had to be sent to the JLO office.

I say them Children in there are repeat offenders who have been threw the JLO system a few times and the DPP has stepped it up.

AFAIK if the JLO office has nothing to do with the DPP. Most JLOs will never be seen by the DPP as the case would be dealt with summarily i.e. without direct DPP consent but rather with overall DPP consent such as seen in Section 49 or drunk driver cases

pauldaly1888

age of criminal responsibility in Ireland is 12

djtechnics1210

TheNog wrote: »

The Red Star list is juveniles who are automatically recommended for prosecution by the JLO office and therefore no JLO referral form had to be sent to the JLO office.



AFAIK if the JLO office has nothing to do with the DPP. Most JLOs will never be seen by the DPP as the case would be dealt with summarily i.e. without direct DPP consent but rather with overall DPP consent such as seen in Section 49 or drunk driver cases

If a child, even if he/she is red starred and is involved in incident, DPP will not direct until they receive a certificate from JLO stating they have seen file and that child is still not suitable for inclusion in programe.

For every incident involving a minor a referral form has to be sent to JLO officer, a certificate stating a child is not suitable for JLO is a disclosable document and will be looked for by defense in serious and even minor cases.

It has been known for children to be brought back into JLO scheme, even if they were previously red starred

King Ludvig

Age of criminal responsibility is 12 but extends to 12-14 year olds with a rebuttable presumption doesnt it? Cant procequte someone under 14 without DPPs consent.

Open to correction ^

TheNog

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

If a child, even if he/she is red starred and is involved in incident, DPP will not direct until they receive a certificate from JLO stating they have seen file and that child is still not suitable for inclusion in programe.

For every incident involving a minor a referral form has to be sent to JLO officer, a certificate stating a child is not suitable for JLO is a disclosable document and will be looked for by defense in serious and even minor cases.

It has been known for children to be brought back into JLO scheme, even if they were previously red starred

Would this still apply to Red Star juveniles who are charged or summonsed for summary cases?

civildefence

From what I can gather the guard should have took statements from any witnesses, the girl and the driver. There should have been an ambulance called, even if she seemed ok. If someone at the scene claimed that the driver was underage, the guard would have reason to believe an offence had been committed and he should have arrested the lad on suspicion of driving without holding a a valid licence and hence no insurance, in any case the young lad should have been ordered to at least produce his insurance details at the station along with the licence. The van could also have been seized if i'm not mistaken.

djtechnics1210

civildefence wrote: »

If someone at the scene claimed that the driver was underage, the guard would have reason to believe an offence had been committed and he should have arrested the lad on suspicion of driving without holding a a valid licence and hence no insurance,.

Your very mistaken im afraid

This is exactly why public get mis-informed about law when people give there 2 cents and its way off :mad:.... for the last time and its been mentioned already = there's NO power of arrest for driving without dl or insurance under the RTA

And besides that people claim a lot of things at scenes of various crimes... and in my experience.. they are always a good bit off when you get the real picture.
At the end of the day its a simple investigation.... its an traffic collision with a pedestrian and is investigated as such..... members of AGS can't go around arresting people for no reason.

civildefence

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

This is exactly why public get mis-informed about law :mad:.... for the last time and its been mentioned already = there's NO power of arrest for driving without dl or insurance

Well i'm sure its a different story if a fraudulent licence is produced at the scene.

djtechnics1210

And how is a member meant to make that call at the side of the road?????
How can a member decide if its a fake or not when out on the street?????????
Have you seen how good the fakes are??? Well their very impressive.

Member has to satisfy themselves before arresting someone in the first place, your not gonna take some other persons word for it just cause they tell you they know, then arrest your man and then end up in the high court getting sued for unlawful arrest.

djtechnics1210

TheNog wrote: »

Would this still apply to Red Star juveniles who are charged or summonsed for summary cases?

A referral form is still supposed to be submitted, its so JLO know how many times child is JLO'd for future reference incase of HSE involvement etc

civildefence

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

And how is a member meant to make that call at the side of the road?????
How can a member decide if its a fake or not when out on the street?????????
Have you seen how good the fakes are??? Well their very impressive.

Member has to satisfy themselves before arresting someone in the first place, your not gonna take some other persons word for it just cause they tell you they know, then arrest your man and then end up in the high court getting sued for unlawful arrest.

No, i've never seen a fake DL.
I suppose if the guards had access to a licence database on the roadside, like the one the DVLA provides to police in the UK we wouldn't have a problem.

djtechnics1210

civildefence wrote: »

No, i've never seen a fake DL.
I suppose if the guards had access to a licence database on the roadside, like the one the DVLA provides to police in the UK we wouldn't have a problem.

+1
It would be an invaluable tool for AGS if that was available to members.
But sadly id say it will be a very very long way away

TheNog

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

+1
It would be an invaluable tool for AGS if that was available to members.
But sadly id say it will be a very very long way away

There is the Driver Lookup to check the validity of a driving licence which is not a bad thing but for me it doesnt go far enough. A picture of the licence holder should be included in this search along with being able to search by name and DOB rather than the licence number. Maybe in time this will become available to us.