One damn hill after another

souter

Okay, so decide to step up my Wicklow 100 training regime a notch and actually visit this Wicklow place that people here are so fixated with.
Holy mother of God!
A spin out to Enniskerry and I discover climbs so steep I can barely walk up, followed by descents so sheer and twisty I'd be reluctant to ski them - all the while shedding that altitude so painfully gained. I probably need new brake block after this, I certainly need new legs, heart and lungs.

You'd think with all the time they have the so called organizers of this event could have found some more cycle friendly terrain. Then to cap it all I check out the ride and it's actually 105.6 km!

Maybe if they called it the Wicklow 105.6km mountaineering challenge there wouldn't be quite so many entries from delusionary commuters.

Do they do refunds?

DirkVoodoo

I used to feel like this. I remember my first trip up to Johnny Foxes almost 2 years ago I had to stop a few times. Then my first trip to Glencree, I got to Enniskerry, turned right and proceeded up that hill, got off half way and walked up to the shops.

It gets easier! Believe me, stick at it, keep cycling and you will be amazed at how much stronger you will become.

I'm still not a great descender, I generally find two things make it easier:

1) Go with a more experienced rider, if they are in front of you they will generally pick the best lines and you can just follow them.

2) Try riding off the brakes. When I am not confident I tend to brake more than I should, which is actually not good for descending and taking corners. Picking the right lines and getting your body position right are key, but they only really come with experience and confidence (unless you are a nutter and just throw yourself down them).

Tackleberry

Haha great post - know exactly what you mean but stick with it, you've got plenty of time!

A couple of months ago I actually wasn't sure I could physically ride up a lot of climbs in Wicklow but stick at it and slowly but surely you'll find the legs. Then some day you'll make it up to the top of Sally Gap and just smile away the pain in your legs! I'm now doing 80 mile spins via Shay Elliot & Slieve Mann and feeling stronger with each spin - at least you've got massive room for improvement!

I hate climbing but it makes you appreciate the achievement that bit more - I have myself thoroughly convinced that the strength it takes to get my fat ass up a mountain completely overshadows the effort put in by the skinny mountain goats you see flying up them!

Stick at it man!

ROK ON

I love climbing and am no good at it - but I do love it.
Climbing is what being on the bike is all about (and descending).

That climb out of Enniskerry is tough but short - it took me months to get used to it. It does absolutely get easier.

Best advice (that I got here) use your gearing. For tough climbs like that choose your best climbing gear and spin up.
Stay in saddle as much as possible and conserve energy.

Descending - use the drops (it is easier to brake IMO). If it gets too fast for you just keep tapping your front brake lightly. Keep your nerve and relax - this is your reward for busting your ass on the climbs.

ROK ON

Tackleberry wrote: »

- I have myself thoroughly convinced that the strength it takes to get my fat ass up a mountain completely overshadows the effort put in by the skinny mountain goats you see flying up them!

Stick at it man!

@Tackleberry - I think that the yoke Lumen has on his bike (powermeter thing) bears that out. He measures effort on the basis of Watts/KG afaik.
Us larger blokes need/tend to spend more power climbing (now the only thing bad about this, is that you only have so much power to give - so we probably tire earlier).
This is what I understand from talking with Lumen (however i am not very scientifically minded).

Esroh

As the Lads say Do'nt quit now.You were brave enough to go out there today and Ok you got a shock.We have all had them.It took me 7 attempts to get up our biggest hill around here and anyhill in Wicklow makes it look like a pimple.And the great thing about the Wicklow100 is that there will be hundreds like you on the day.And alot of them who come from other parts of the country will never have met the likes of the hills till the day itself. You have 7 weeks and if you work at it you'll be amazed how much you'll come on.

Tackleberry

ROK ON wrote: »

@Tackleberry - I think that the yoke Lumen has on his bike (powermeter thing) bears that out. He measures effort on the basis of Watts/KG afaik.
Us larger blokes need/tend to spend more power climbing (now the only thing bad about this, is that you only have so much power to give - so we probably tire earlier).
This is what I understand from talking with Lumen (however i am not very scientifically minded).

Yeah I'd imagine so, all about power to weight ratio, and at the end of the you're killed on a climb for unnecessary weight / beer gut but as with anything in life I give a lot more praise to people having a go at things they aren't immediately natural at than those who breeze by and take the plaudits!

rottenhat

Souter, it sounds like you did grand...you may (OK, will) run into hills longer but you won't find anything in Wicklow much steeper than the roads out of Enniskerry. Have another go next weekend and I guarantee you that with the benefit of familiarity the hills you did this week will seem a lot easier. And if they don't, well, you know you got up them once so you know you can get up them again.

There's nothing too brutal in the Wicklow 100, you have plenty of time to finish the route, and there'll be plenty of people suffering along with you. The climb up the shoulder of Sugarloaf is the worst of it, so if you're really worried about it, go out and have a crack at that a few weeks before the ride. It's long but it's steady and you will feel like a king at the top of it. Well, once your vision clears anyway....

blorg

@souter- I would also consider gears, they are very helpful :pac: IIRC you are planning on doing it singlespeed? This will at least save you on the descents, which are the harder bit riding fixed in Wicklow

If you managed over 100km today however, look at it this way, you have done more already... I would hold to the idea however that the W200 on a geared bike is more of a challenge than the W100 SS/fixed.

Civilian_Target

Map my ride says this is 800m of ascent.
Is it easier to climb 800m straight (over the space of 10 or 12km) and then come back down, or to do somthing like the Wicklow 100?

Húrin

I got into cycling as an aesthetically-driven tourist, so the way I looked at it, and still do, is that the reward for that climbing effort is beauty. Now I've come to appreciate the sport a bit more. Wicklow is perfectly cycle-friendly... I'm surprised that anyone doesn't know that it's hilly.

blorg

Civilian_Target wrote: »

Map my ride says this is 800m of ascent.
Is it easier to climb 800m straight (over the space of 10 or 12km) and then come back down, or to do somthing like the Wicklow 100?

It's different, not necessarily worse or better, I have done both the straight 2,000m ascents in France and the up and down around the lakes and the up and down can be very tiring also.

souter

I've gone fom endorphin euphoria to alchohol numbness but overall happy with the experience.
Having started late I mainly saw people going the other way.
Like the bould soldier coming up from Enniskerry to Glencullen - he was sweating but I tipped him a wink having gone so far myself, before appreciating the magnitude of the climb to get there.
The one positive I take is that formerly big hills turn into pussycats after *really* big hills.

AstraMonti

I feel your pain, i was there 3 months ago.. and now i am again. I had to stay off the bike for 1.5 month due to knee issue and now i feel that i am back to zero, i am getting tired going just up to enniskerry. Oh well.. we have a month ahead of us, with a bit of luck i might be able to do the W200..

rottenhat

Civilian_Target wrote: »

Map my ride says this is 800m of ascent.
Is it easier to climb 800m straight (over the space of 10 or 12km) and then come back down, or to do somthing like the Wicklow 100?

Depending on the gradient, I might prefer to do it straight - there's something very energy-sapping about the incessant up and down over small hills, makes it very hard to settle into a rhythm like you can on a long, steady climb.

Lumen

Hills are all about pacing and gearing.

If you're dying on the hills, go slower. If you run out of gears, consider changing your gearing.

Measuring power on a hill is fascinating. It's natural to judge your pace by speed, and going slow feels wrong, regardless of the incline.

The easiest way to pace is to try and maintain a conversation (or talk to yourself/sing a song if solo). If you can manage it up the hill, you are going at a sustainable pace.

Obviously it's fun to push harder on a hill, but don't expect to be able to do it all day.

Caroline_ie

I only started cycling up hills about last june and 4 months after i was going up the Allpes D'Huez and The Galibier. I am quite slow at going up hills, I tend to pace myself too well. What will make me better at hills will be more training and 10 lbs off ...
Train for the 100k, and try it, The 100 is not going into the WW mountain much at all, it's fairly ondulated, but not steep.

niceonetom

souter wrote: »

A spin out to Enniskerry and I discover climbs so steep I can barely walk up, followed by descents so sheer and twisty I'd be reluctant to ski them...

My first time coming out of enniskerry (the right tun at the monument at the bottom) was very traumatic. I'd just signed up for the w200 and spent €900 on a bike. I thought I had made a very serious error - this was not possible. This climb out of enniskerry has me nauseous with effort - what would the sally gap be like???

Weekly repetition, and the company of fellow masochists boardsies and it all changed. The hills are still tough - they always will be - but they're not scary and there's a strange pleasure can be derived from sloggin up them, and there's real satisfaction in getting better.

Descending is a art in itself, though it's really about having fun. In a non competitive environment there's no reason to go faster than you're comfortable with. I find the best way to do it is to slide your arse under the tip of the saddle, lay your torso along the top-tube and place you chin on the stem. Tuck your elbows in and hold the bars as close to the stem as possible. Turn your toes back and squeeze the bike with your knees.

TinyExplosions

similar to this:


-though for proper insanity, Pantani had a great technique (can't find pic atm), and did anyone see Andy Schleck yesterday, that was some tuck he got into -even streamlining his feet!

Raam

niceonetom wrote: »

I find the best way to do it is to slide your arse under the tip of the saddle, lay your torso along the top-tube and place you chin on the stem. Tuck your elbows in and hold the bars as close to the stem as possible. Turn your toes back and squeeze the bike with your knees.

I take it you were watching Andy Schleck yesterday?

niceonetom

Raam wrote: »

I take it you were watching Andy Schleck yesterday?

Well yes, I was. Didn't think he had that performance in him tbh. No way I thought he could go solo from that distance. But that's not who I was thinking of - he still had his arse on the saddle, the wimp.


This is what I was thinking about - can't find a video starting earlier in the descent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uW96zhMXIk

irishmotorist

TinyExplosions wrote: »

though for proper insanity, Pantani had a great technique

There are some tributes on Youtube for him showing this. They're mostly in Italian, but you don't need to understand them to hope Pantani had a steel plated chamois.

Raam

I've been reading/hearing/seeing that Sammy Sanchez is a demon descender. McEwan too.

Did anyone see when Bettini won Lombardy? He was tearing it down and only just missed clipping a wall on a bend. Phenomenal stuff.

DirkVoodoo

They were saying that about Sanchez alright yesterday when he tried making an attack near the end, really whipped around a few corners extremely fast.

It's always great to ride behind a good descender, you learn a lot about what you are doing wrong yourself.

souter

blorg wrote: »

@souter- I would also consider gears, they are very helpful :pac: IIRC you are planning on doing it singlespeed? This will at least save you on the descents, which are the harder bit riding fixed in Wicklow

Still planning on using the single speed. Have set myself the threshold of climbing Howth hill north side. If I can't manage that without walking I'll look at buying/borrowing a geared bike. I had to walk up 2 sections yesterday. Thankfully no-one saw but the shame!

If you managed over 100km today however, look at it this way, you have done more already... I would hold to the idea however that the W200 on a geared bike is more of a challenge than the W100 SS/fixed.

Completely given up any notions of the 200 this year - what was I thinking? Actually only did 50km yesterday but it was a good start for me.

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

If you're dying on the hills, go slower. If you run out of gears, consider changing your gearing.

The easiest way to pace is to try and maintain a conversation (or talk to yourself/sing a song if solo). If you can manage it up the hill, you are going at a sustainable pace.

You should be able to sustain harder than this, e.g. where having a conversation starts to become difficult. If you can have a conversation you are taking it easy. I find a heart rate monitor helps (power would be even better.)

I think souter is planning on doing this on a singlespeed so not a lot of options with the gearing. It's also not that easy SS or fixed to "just go slower", there is a certain minimum you really need to keep up. Generally when riding fixed I tend to peg up the hills as quick as possible, out of the saddle the whole way. Longest I have done is the Wicklow Gap.

I would reiterate the idea that for your first outing a SS is not necessarily sensible however.

Regarding descending, there are basically two aero positions- the most aero being the one Tom linked above. The disadvantage of this position is that you have no access whatsoever to the brakes. Personally I am too much of a wimp to attempt it anywhere there are bends and it certainly isn't for beginners. The other one I mentioned, with arse off the back of the saddle and hands down in the drops, gives you brake access but is slightly less aero.

zzzzzzzz

Who was the bloke that used to put his stomach on the saddle and extend his legs out completely? That guy was a fcuking legend.

I saw a video of dean downing doing that on a training spin, but didn't look as slick as the other bloke I'm thinking of. Anyone?

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

You should be able to sustain harder than this, e.g. where having a conversation starts to become difficult. If you can have a conversation you are taking it easy.

When you were doing long climbs on all-day rides in France or Spain, were you able to sustain conversation?

Chips Lovell

aidan.offbeat wrote: »

Who was the bloke that used to put his stomach on the saddle and extend his legs out completely? That guy was a fcuking legend.

I saw a video of dean downing doing that on a training spin, but didn't look as slick as the other bloke I'm thinking of. Anyone?

There's a pic somewhere of Euskaltel's David Etxebarria popping a superman during the 2002 Tour de France. Can't find it anywhere though.

Here's another one:



EDIT: Found it:

zzzzzzzz

el tonto wrote: »

There's a pic somewhere of Euskaltel's David Etxebarria popping a superman during the 2002 Tour de France. Can't find it anywhere though.

Here's another one:

Nice one

ROK ON

niceonetom wrote: »

The hills are still tough - they always will be - but they're not scary and there's a strange pleasure can be derived from sloggin up them, and there's real satisfaction in getting better.

+1

@Aidan - i think you are referring to Pantani .

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

When you were doing long climbs on all-day rides in France or Spain, were you able to sustain conversation?

Not if I was pushing myself, I wouldn't have been able to sustain conversation at any point going up Alpe d'Huez for example, neither would I have been conversing during the last km or so of any of the others!

My point is (of course depending on fitness) that you can sustain cycling effort over an extended climb well beyond the "able to carry out a conversation." Technically I would imagine what you are looking at here for the max is your Functional Threshold Power, e.g. what you can sustain for 1hr or nearabouts in a time trial. I am not well versed in this stuff so feel free to correct me now. Whatever it is it is well above "able to carry out a conversation." This is the max, but you won't be talking for well under this amount either.

The hills in Wicklow in any case are not that extended so you can go up them even harder if you wish. Even more so the ones on the W100 compared to the 200. You wouldn't be doing this all day, just up the climbs. Recover on the descents.

Of course if you can carry out a conversation you are certainly safe, but I would expect most people irrespective of level go faster than conversational pace up hills. I would be seriously impressed if souter can maintain a conversation while cycling a singlespeed up the hill out of Enniskerry, Djouce, etc. (all short, but sharp climbs!)

souter

blorg wrote: »

I would be seriously impressed if souter can maintain a conversation while cycling a singlespeed up the hill out of Enniskerry, Djouce, etc. (all short, but sharp climbs!)

Lol! The only conversation I have is internal - "Why?why?why?" as my heart beat get's louder and louder in my ears and peripheral vision starts to fade.

I wish I could stand on the pedals for longer - I pretty much only do this when I'm about to stall, so I'll be working on this. btw, it's pretty embarassing running out of steam, grinding to a halt then finding you don't have the strength to unclip.

Lumen

souter wrote: »

I wish I could stand on the pedals for longer - I pretty much only do this when I'm about to stall, so I'll be working on this. btw, it's pretty embarassing running out of steam, grinding to a halt then finding you don't have the strength to unclip.

Climbing out of the saddle is apparently less efficient (i.e. more effort expended for less climbing power) but it uses different muscles so you get a bit of a break but you will just get more out of breath.

You should aim to stay seated for most of the climb.

When your muscles burn, that's lactic acid build up, which indicates that you have crossed your aerobic threshold. You can only do this so much before you have nothing left.

Go slower, save your aerobic effort for cresting the hill.

bcmf

As someone who has a deep resentment of anything more then 2% I approach them like this.
Get your gear spinnnng at the bottom.Hopefully the incline is nice enough that you can settle into a rythymn (?).Only stand up when absolutley neccessary.Do your own pace regardless of the speed.When its starts to grind.i pick a spot about 7feet ahead of me and concentrate on getting to that then pick another spot.Try not to look up at the hill ahead of you.It just may take the heart out of you.I find most hills are climable this way.I maybe an hour behind everyone else.....but hey..
I can even manage to get up the short 20% in my area doing it this way.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Not if I was pushing myself, I wouldn't have been able to sustain conversation at any point going up Alpe d'Huez for example, neither would I have been conversing during the last km or so of any of the others!

OK, AD aside then, the only bits where you couldn't converse would be the final bit where you were deliberately pushing yourself.

Threshold power is roughly that which you can sustain for an hour - only one hour, and you must suffer throughout. It's more usually tested as 95% of the maximum 20 mins power, because of the difficuty of sustaining the pace (and recovery time needed).

"Tempo" pace is 75-90%, and is "difficult to hold continuous conversation without breathing becoming difficult". There is a limit of a couple of hours on tempo pace in training.

"Endurance" pace is 65-75% of threshold, and you're supposed to be able to hold a conversation easily without getting out of breath.

My point is that for an endurance event, you want to be in the endurance zone. If you're regularly popping up into tempo, threshold and beyond on the hills, you're not evenly distributing the effort and you will perceive your riding limits to be the number and length of climbs rather than total distance.

A good start to conquering a fear of hills is to attempt to ride them at endurance pace, i.e. easy conversation, and take it from there.

That said, my achilles is buggered and I can't go near hills right now, so I'm not exactly the best advocate for taking it easy.

blorg

I think ye have all missed the point that he is doing this on a singlespeed. He is going to have to murder himself on the climbs, he won't have any choice in the matter

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

I think ye have all missed the point that he is doing this on a singlespeed. He is going to have to murder himself on the climbs, he won't have any choice in the matter

Ah, I saw mention of that but assumed it was a joke. :pac:

bcmf

blorg wrote: »

I think ye have all missed the point that he is doing this on a singlespeed. He is going to have to murder himself on the climbs, he won't have any choice in the matter

Jaysus.

Greyspoke

When you have only a single gear, which of necessity has to be at least a middling sized gear, then a lot of climbing will have to be done out of the saddle unless you have really good leg power. Personally, I much prefer climbing out of the saddle in higher gears as I feel relatively stronger at it but it does require a bit more upper body strength as it feels like you're doing almost as much pulling with your arms as pushing with your legs.
I would suggest that if you're going to ride a highish gear uphill then maybe go to the gym or buy some dumbells and do lots of pulling exercises.

souter

Not too many votes of confidence in my plan. I'll pay more attention to training and see how I feel.
Greyspoke, what would you consider a middling gear? I'm rocking using 72", 84" on my commute - I've a spare 47t and a cunning plan to swap it in place of the 48t just before the day, giving loads more gear.
I'm fairly stocky, but my legs are the weak link when getting out of the saddle. Possibly because I leave it till I'm done in before standing.

blorg

72" sounds good, I use ~73" myself for fixed cycling in Wicklow. With a singlespeed you could go lower as you won't have the problem of crazy RPMs on the descents.

I would not go any higher than that 72", whatever you do. Get out and try Djouce on it, it is probably the worst the W100 has to offer.

Greyspoke

souter wrote: »

Not too many votes of confidence in my plan. I'll pay more attention to training and see how I feel.
Greyspoke, what would you consider a middling gear? I'm rocking using 72", 84" on my commute - I've a spare 47t and a cunning plan to swap it in place of the 48t just before the day, giving loads more gear.
I'm fairly stocky, but my legs are the weak link when getting out of the saddle. Possibly because I leave it till I'm done in before standing.

As blorg suggests, 70-75" is what I'd call a middling gear, the kind of size that comes as standard on the likes of Bowerys and Langsters.
If you're pushing 84" on your commute, assuming it's more than just a couple of kms, then your legs must be reasonably strong and if your heart/lungs are in reasonable shape then I'm sure you'd manage the W100 in a gear in the low 70s without too much trouble. The steepest bit on that route is the haul out of Enniskerry up past the church so if you can get up that okay you'll be fine. Go for it!

souter

2 votes for low 70s, I'll stick with that.
10 kms commute each way but pretty flat. I'm varying it a bit and finding some slight inclines to attack out of the saddle. I think my legs are pretty strong - heart and lungs are more the problem.
Time to put up and shut up methink.

Greyspoke

souter wrote: »

I'm fairly stocky, but my legs are the weak link when getting out of the saddle. Possibly because I leave it till I'm done in before standing.

I meant to add that contrary to popular opinion about staying seated and spinning up hills in lower gears I'm usually out of the saddle from the start of climbs as I'm pretty hopeless/uncomfortable climbing seated. Maybe try that yourself and see how it goes rather than wait until you're close to stalling in a seated position.

blorg

With a geared bike spinning and seated is indeed a better idea but you can't climb steep inclines on a big gear seated.

@souter- did you do the hill between Enniskerry and Powerscourt already? Next try Djouce, it is much longer and the bit at the end is very steep. I did it on my 73" after coming up the 25% road from the bottom of the valley and between the two I was discovering new muscles in my lower back. There isn't really anything worse on the W100. I may head out with you some time for that if you like

souter

blorg wrote: »

With a geared bike spinning and seated is indeed a better idea but you can't climb steep inclines on a big gear seated.

@souter- did you do the hill between Enniskerry and Powerscourt already? Next try Djouce, it is much longer and the bit at the end is very steep. I did it on my 73" after coming up the 25% road from the bottom of the valley and between the two I was discovering new muscles in my lower back. There isn't really anything worse on the W100. I may head out with you some time for that if you like

Err, I was a bit lost, but I didn't do any serious hills. Came out of Stepaside I think, went up quiet roads till I eventually arrived at Johnny Foxes from the behind via Glencullen/Puck pitch and putt. Descent from there to Enniskerry was terrifying - couldn't believe people were actually acending it. Bit puzzled that even with that precipitous downhill to Enniskerry the way back home was comparatively mild via the Scalp I think.
Let me get a couple more assaults of Howth Hill under my belt and I'll be delighted to go for spin with ye.

souter

and it's just a bump to you Wicklow Weirdos, but still...Fooking hard work with 72" gear and a big tummy.
My compensation is a 4 pack of Budvar, unlimitted cashews and and old skool blues on bbc4. Sweet!!

Nietzschean

is the north face that much harder than the south? its been a while since i've done it(hate the road condition in the town so normally go out around the south side of it and just up and down the same side)

though speaking of wicklow just went up stocking lane and over to enniskerry there, **** me some difference between howth and that....

Glowing

Somebody give me some encouragement ... please!

I haven't signed up for the 100 yet, but am *considering* it. I've only done 2 38km ish spins around Enniskerry/Glencree/Johnny Foxes, and haven't died (it was close though the first time, though felt a lot better this weekend).

I've never cycled more than that, ever! If I wanted to to the 100, how much training would I need to fit in over the next month? What is the max distance I should aim for? I'm not super-fit, but am reasonably active ... and like you OP, when I checked out the Wicklow 200 sign-up site, I was really mad about that extra 6km! That could make or break me

What should I do?! I'm also not looking forward to the idea of cycling 100km alone, is it lonely? I have visions of me at the back of a huge group, saying 'wait for me' between gasps.

Edit: I'm also CRAP at decending, like a granny on the breaks all the way. I have NO confidence after falling off my bike last year when my wheels slipped out from under me, and now I have 'issues' with bends. There were some good tips up there, and I made a concsious effort today to try bank the bike a little on bends but nope, wasn't happening. Such a waste of speed!

doozerie

There are many views on the "best" climbing technique, but the truth of the matter is that usual one of "well, it depends". It depends on the gradient, it depends on the length of the climb, it depends on whether your priority is to get up it in a hurry or to get up it with the least amount of energy expended, it depends on what gears you have available to you, it depends on whether the roads are wet or dry, it depends on your personal riding style, etc., etc. The elusive "most efficient method" is subject to the same variables too, so what is the most efficient method for you on one hill today may not be the most efficient method for you on the same hill tomorrow.

Personally, I climb out of the saddle a lot. That works for me. I know people who can't spent much time out of the saddle without their legs tiring fast, so it doesn't work for them. I've overtaken people on climbs that have been sitting all the way while I've been out of the saddle, and I've been overtaken on climbs by people in the saddle while I've been out of the saddle - and likewise when I've chosen to stay in the saddle sometimes I get to the top first and sometimes not. If there is a golden rule, or a "right" way to climb, I think it's no more than "do what works for you on the day and in the circumstances you find yourself". Try different techniques/methods of climbing to see how they feel, and then pick and choose from them as necessary, but mainly just listen to your body.

The following might be of interest. The first is a discussion of a scientific approach to measuring whether staying in the saddle is more efficient that out of the saddle or vice versa (answer = it depends), the others offer advice on climbing technique(s):
* Technique: Up and away
* Technique: Be a better climber
* Power Climbing