boss wants to keep east european contractors

scully74

we have been using east european sub-contractors during the boom years, didn't mind too much, plenty of work to go around. things are bad now..the boss :mad:wants to make his irish direct employees redundant and keep these guys:mad::mad:.
says he needs to...doesn't he realise he is making this resession worse, these guy are taking the money home and don't spend much here, and will go when to work is totally gone, at least we would put the money back into the country.
have many people experienced this by their greedy irish bosses:(

blinding

scully74 wrote: »

we have been using east european sub-contractors during the boom years, didn't mind too much, plenty of work to go around. things are bad now..the boss :mad:wants to make his irish direct employees redundant and keep these guys:mad::mad:.
says he needs to...doesn't he realise he is making this resession worse, these guy are taking the money home and don't spend much here, and will go when to work is totally gone, at least we would put the money back into the country.
have many people experienced this by their greedy irish bosses:(

Piss in his tea as often as you can get away with.

Firetrap

It hasn't happened to me personally but I've a friend who does contracting work and has lost out to Eastern Europeans in a similar manner. Thing is, they can undercut Irish workers and sometimes even subcontract so that you can have 2 or 3 workers for the price of 1. Employers don't care what they do or don't spend their wages on.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

blinding wrote: »

Piss in his tea as often as you can get away with.

Please try and keep your input useful

Blazer

Tell people that your boss no longers exploys Irish people and picket his office or whatever.
Anything that hurts his business. People like this deserve to be made bankrupt and out of business.

philip100

To be honest I really think it is just a crappy time that we are living in. The facts are if your boss does not go for a cheaper and probably flexible work force his business will go under because of the low costing asian competition. Likewise most Irish with their families, mortgages etc here cannot afford to live on these low wages, as far as I am concerned it is upto the government to start getting the cost of living in Ireland down, i.e, food costs, electric, gas. Once living costs have fallen then we will not require the rates of pay we do know to live and the companies can actually start to compete with other countries on cost and start export products again.

Kinetic^

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

Tell people that your boss no longers exploys Irish people and picket his office or whatever.
Anything that hurts his business. People like this deserve to be made bankrupt and out of business.

It's an employer's choice who he does or doesn't hire.

lostexpectation

is this the first time in ireland in the last 5 years when somebody properly blamed the boss not the employees i congratule you.

greendom

It's no different really than Dell or all the countless other firms moving their business overseas to reduce costs. But at least this guy is staying here, meaning that taxes are still going to Ireland Inc. Also presumably these guys are renting in Ireland and spending money on food travel etc. Fair play to him for his contribution to the Irish economy

mikemac

Been done to me.

As a student I earned 12 euro an hour as a hotel night porter. Very good money for a student job but I say I deserved it, on your own in a hotel with 180 residents, many of them rowdy.
Fire, fights, security or medical emergencies, I was responsible for it all. And yes, emergency services were called for all 4

They hired a Polish guy, nice lad.
I was told my management it wasn't safe to have one person here for 88 rooms so here is someone to train up and help.
I trained him up, he got minimum wage and I got let go.

Wasn't fired, it was more like "sorry, no hours available for you this week"

I blame the management, the Polish lad was only try to earn some money like the rest of us

OP, what's happened to you isn't new at all though you probably earn more as a contractor then I did

Xiney

If it wasn't Eastern Europeans he was hiring for less money, it'd be younger guys with no responsibilities or mortgages.

Stone Grabber

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

Tell people that your boss no longers exploys Irish people and picket his office or whatever.
Anything that hurts his business. People like this deserve to be made bankrupt and out of business.

Wow - you're totally not xenophobic!

jimmycrackcorm

Why aren't the Irish workers trying to undercut the foreign workers? It reminds me of listening to a radio show late last year when a brickie was on complaining about how he used to make €1000 a week and then he couldn't because of the foreign workers; I remember thinking - how the hell does a brickie get to earn €50k a year?

Ordinary man

Sub contractors are a lot cheaper for companies to have. No holiday pay, no sick pay. They can be let go without notice and if things are slow, they can be left at home for a few days. It suits the government too because they are not entitled to dole.

Amalgam

Kinetic^ wrote: »

It's an employer's choice who he does or doesn't hire.

..and it is the consumer's choice to not buy goods. It is funny to see various industry pundits whinge about the lack of stability in the retail sector, if you give your average worker no sense of security or worth, they aren't going to want to spend money on available goods and services.

The gombeen like greed and short term thinking that's so fashionable with employers at the moment will end up like a snake eating its own tail.

Tipsy Mac

This is one "benefit" of the EU whether we like it or not, that's what people voted for or were told to vote for.

leitrim lad

ok im an employer and was in a similar position several times in the past,

i dont like eastern euro labor as much as the rest of ye but its cheap and they are more productive ,and they seem to do better work IN SOME CASES,

so i held a meeting with my irish employees ,and remember i dont recognise unions ,nor do i entertain the members of unions, for my own reasons,

i put it to the locals what hourly rate the non nationals were and how much more productive they were, and the locals were left gobsmacked, so i gave them the option either match the production and cost of the non nationals or take a long brisk walk

they chose to stay ar home .their problem not mine i gave them the option, at the end of the day business is business and its about making money ,not overpaying someone who thinks they deserve it because they are in a union or they are irish,

i know of men who are now working for €40 a day just to stay in work ,

janullrich

It is a disgrace that this should not be allowed to happen. I totally agree that a lot of this money flies back to Poland or whereever. It is ok for the Poles etc who don't have mortgages etc to survive on the wages. Many employers don't have any morals however. It is a sad state of this economy when we see these types of things going on. I wish I could leave Ireland but unfortunately can't at the moment. The country is really going down the tubes when i hear this.

Capt'n Midnight

Mathew Reilly wrote:

Anything that hurts his business. People like this deserve to be made bankrupt and out of business.

If the boss goes out of business then the OP would be out of a job. :rolleyes:

philip100

we are talking about business here, morals do not come into it, employers have to do whatever is necessary to survive. Morals is what got us into this situation in the first place.

Micky Dolenz

leitrim lad wrote: »

i know of men who are now working for €40 a day just to stay in work ,

That makes no sense. you wouod get €200 on the dole along with other benefits like rent allowance and probably more. Why would someone chose full time work and be entitled to nothing and lose out?


It is very small miinded to complain about EU workers, We, the Irish have benefited greatly from foreign investment and alot of Irish companies deal internationally. We have to look at the big picture.

Protectionism is not the way forward as it usually goes both ways.

Bondvillain

janullrich wrote: »

It is a disgrace that this should not be allowed to happen. I totally agree that a lot of this money flies back to Poland or whereever. It is ok for the Poles etc who don't have mortgages etc to survive on the wages. Many employers don't have any morals however. It is a sad state of this economy when we see these types of things going on. I wish I could leave Ireland but unfortunately can't at the moment. The country is really going down the tubes when i hear this.

If you did leave Ireland, would you be working abroad?

If you did get a job, would your primary concern be for the employee you replaced and your new country of residence, or for yourself?

I think by Leaving Ireland, your concern would be for your own social & economic wellbeing, which pretty much puts you in the position of the foreign born employees referred to in the OP, a situation which would inevitably lead to some guy on boards.pl or boards.com.au or whatever writing about how its a disgrace that employers are hiring all the paddies to take his jobs, and how his country is going down the tubes.

Some of our arguments seem a little skewed.

bladespin

scully74 wrote: »

we have been using east european sub-contractors during the boom years, didn't mind too much, plenty of work to go around. things are bad now..the boss :mad:wants to make his irish direct employees redundant and keep these guys:mad::mad:.
says he needs to...doesn't he realise he is making this resession worse, these guy are taking the money home and don't spend much here, and will go when to work is totally gone, at least we would put the money back into the country.
have many people experienced this by their greedy irish bosses:(

Can you explain why your boss feels the need to do this?

Surely he should just cut the rate he pay his Irish employees?

AARRRGH

scully74 wrote: »

we have been using east european sub-contractors during the boom years, didn't mind too much, plenty of work to go around.

Interesting. You "didn't mind too much". I can only read this as you have always had some problems with the concept of hiring foreign workers.

scully74 wrote: »

things are bad now..the boss :mad:wants to make his irish direct employees redundant and keep these guys:mad::mad:.
says he needs to...

We are part of the EU now. What he is doing is normal and legal. Ireland has benefitted from this immensely over the past two decades.

It is very possible he is telling the truth - business is slow, or is going to be slow, so he needs to keep his costs down. Irish wages are generally very high, so he can save a lot of money by outsourcing.

scully74 wrote: »

doesn't he realise he is making this resession worse, these guy are taking the money home and don't spend much here, and will go when to work is totally gone, at least we would put the money back into the country.

I don't see how this is any of his concern really. He is trying to run a business - being patriotic or whatever is irrelevant.

scully74 wrote: »

have many people experienced this by their greedy irish bosses:(

It isn't necessarily greed. Seriously, I used to be a financial controller so I know first hand how delicate business is. He probably sees years of doom and gloom ahead so has made the decision to save his business. There is nothing wrong with that at all.

If you think about it logically, if he was greedy surely he would have gotten rid of you years ago.

jimmycrackcorm

janullrich wrote: »

It is a disgrace that this should not be allowed to happen. I totally agree that a lot of this money flies back to Poland or whereever. It is ok for the Poles etc who don't have mortgages etc to survive on the wages. Many employers don't have any morals however. It is a sad state of this economy when we see these types of things going on. I wish I could leave Ireland but unfortunately can't at the moment. The country is really going down the tubes when i hear this.

I think that if you were an employer and didn't go for the same cheaper option then you wouldn't be in business for very long. Business exists to make a profit not make jobs.

AARRRGH

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think that if you were an employer and didn't go for the same cheaper option then you wouldn't be in business for very long. Business exists to make a profit not make jobs.

Yeah, I think part of the problem is people think their employer owes them something, or is some sort of charity who should do the 'right' thing.

The reality is your employer doesn't give a crap about you and is only interested in making money. Anything extra is a bonus.

Mr. Presentable

Scully74 - not a racist!

Sorry, OP, but we are in an open market here. You are not allowed to discriminate your staff by nationality (or sex, or age, or colour). From an employers point of view, and I cannot confirm or deny the truth of the myth, apparently Eastern Europeans are harder workers than our own.

scully74

greendom wrote: »

It's no different really than Dell or all the countless other firms moving their business overseas to reduce costs. But at least this guy is staying here, meaning that taxes are still going to Ireland Inc. Also presumably these guys are renting in Ireland and spending money on food travel etc. Fair play to him for his contribution to the Irish economy

what about us that worked hard building the company up as his quality workers, travelling all round the country, working late, doin weekend on call..do we not deserve our jobs, is it our fault the gov let this country put up prices,without ever question, i don't want high wages, but we need them to survive the worlds 2nd dearest country

Micky Dolenz

scully74 wrote: »

what about us that worked hard building the company up as his quality workers, travelling all round the country, working late, doin weekend on call..do we not deserve our jobs, is it our fault the gov let this country put up prices,without ever question, i don't want high wages, but we need them to survive the worlds 2nd dearest country

It was what you were getting paid to do.

Your employer owes you nothing. If you weren't there I am sure your employer would have had his pick of "quality" workers.
Business has no place for sentiment.

scully74

are you the leitrimman of the year:D and do you think the non-nations have the same expenses as us and some of us have kids in school( price of books and uniform) and overpriced houses, we can't just pack up and go to another country...thanks for sending the money out of the country,and helping prolong this resession

leitrim lad wrote: »

ok im an employer and was in a similar position several times in the past,

i dont like eastern euro labor as much as the rest of ye but its cheap and they are more productive ,and they seem to do better work IN SOME CASES,

so i held a meeting with my irish employees ,and remember i dont recognise unions ,nor do i entertain the members of unions, for my own reasons,

i put it to the locals what hourly rate the non nationals were and how much more productive they were, and the locals were left gobsmacked, so i gave them the option either match the production and cost of the non nationals or take a long brisk walk

they chose to stay ar home .their problem not mine i gave them the option, at the end of the day business is business and its about making money ,not overpaying someone who thinks they deserve it because they are in a union or they are irish,

i know of men who are now working for €40 a day just to stay in work ,

scully74

bladespin wrote: »

Can you explain why your boss feels the need to do this?

Surely he should just cut the rate he pay his Irish employees?

oh he has taken his wage reduction already....and some staff let go already, i think we have paid enough so far

Mrs OBumble

scully74 wrote: »

what about us that worked hard building the company up as his quality workers, travelling all round the country, working late, doin weekend on call..do we not deserve our jobs,

You deserved the wages that you had agreed for doing the job. I'll wager that you got them, too.

scully74 wrote: »

...is it our fault the gov let this country put up prices,without ever question, i don't want high wages, but we need them to survive the worlds 2nd dearest country

This is one of the lowest-taxed countries in Europe, as I understand. Have never heard of government controlling the prices here though. The only reason that prices are high is that wages are high. Time are now tough: to do business, companies need to drop prices, and to do that they need to have the best mix of labour cost/quality. The message for you: get flexible!

scully74

Quote:
Originally Posted by scully74
we have been using east european sub-contractors during the boom years, didn't mind too much, plenty of work to go around.

Interesting. You "didn't mind too much". I can only read this as you have always had some problems with the concept of hiring foreign workers.

the industry at the time did not have enough trained irish workers, needed to bring in foreign workers, and trust me their work quality is not that good, i'm in charge testing it. so sorry i don't have a problem with foreigners mate!

herya

scully74 wrote: »

and do you think the non-nations have the same expenses as us and some of us have kids in school( price of books and uniform) and overpriced houses

Yes they have the same expenses, you either have a mortgage or a rent to pay nowadays, no one lives for free and definitely not non-nationals who do not own property here and have no granny to drop kids at when they go to work (yup they have kids too).

scully74

JustMary wrote: »

You deserved the wages that you had agreed for doing the job. I'll wager that you got them, too.




This is one of the lowest-taxed countries in Europe, as I understand. Have never heard of government controlling the prices here though. The only reason that prices are high is that wages are high. Time are now tough: to do business, companies need to drop prices, and to do that they need to have the best mix of labour cost/quality. The message for you: get flexible!

ha! ha! only company tax is low, look at all the indirect tax we pay, and of course VAT

Mrs OBumble

scully74 wrote: »

are you the leitrimman of the year:D and do you think the non-nations have the same expenses as us and some of us have kids in school( price of books and uniform) and overpriced houses, we can't just pack up and go to another country...thanks for sending the money out of the country,and helping prolong this resession

It may surprise you to hear that some of the non-nationals also have children, and mortgages or rental payments here. Some are married to Irish people (gasp!). Some are married to other non-nationals from different places. Etc.

Why can't you just pack and go elsewhere? Sure it's what Irish people have done for generations.

Back in the day, families in Ireland were quite happy to receive money sent from America. This is just the same.

herya

scully74 wrote: »

and trust me their work quality is not that good, i'm in charge testing it. so sorry i don't have a problem with foreigners mate!

Apply to your boss to have people let go on the basis of their results then, problem solved. Efficient employees are kept as contractors, inefficient look for other jobs - fair enough. Nationality has nothing to it.

scully74

herya wrote: »

Yes they have the same expenses, you either have a mortgage or a rent to pay nowadays, no one lives for free and definitely not non-nationals who do not own property here and have no granny to drop kids at when they go to work (yup they have kids too).

dream on.....i worked with these lads, 10 of them in one house, they eat nothing, i even seen them try to do the cheap on safety, but got caught out, and very little people have the benefit of gandmothers minding kids in modren ireland.... fact not one person i know has that.
they still insure their cars and vans from home, and get food, fags, sent over...seen them collect it from post office....
i ask you this did you ever see them in buying clothes,shoes,go to cinema,go enjoy irelands beauty, ....when irish people go work out foreign, they will spend money there, they not as tight arsed

johnathan woss

All these "employers" that see no problem with ruining Irish lives and justify it by the profit motive ..... you're being very short-sighted imo.
If things continue to worsen (which is highly possible) how long will your businesses last? How much debt do you all have ?
You could find yourselves with no polish labour to hire, no business, a mountain of debt and a completely destroyed reputation among your community.

scully74

face it lads. irish employers are
1.greedy....screwed the foreigners when they got here.
2.greedy....screwed irish people by over charging them (houses, cars, food)
3.greedy....lined their own pockets with bulging bank accounts
4.greedy....screwing everybody cause their huge profits are at risk
paddy will always be a sneaky, greedy, backstabbing, corrupt, little man

MysticalRain

johnathan woss wrote: »

All these "employers" that see no problem with ruining Irish lives and justify it by the profit motive ..... you're being very short-sighted imo.
If things continue to worsen (which is highly possible) how long will your businesses last? How much debt do you all have ?
You could find yourselves with no polish labour to hire, no business, a mountain of debt and a completely destroyed reputation among your community.

You know I'm actually getting to the point where I would rather spend money online and give it to foreign retailers or spend it up North than give it to Irish businesses. Perhaps eventually they might learn a lesson or two when it comes to short-term greed.

AARRRGH

scully74 wrote: »

dream on.....i worked with these lads, 10 of them in one house, they eat nothing, i even seen them try to do the cheap on safety, but got caught out, and very little people have the benefit of gandmothers minding kids in modren ireland.... fact not one person i know has that.
they still insure their cars and vans from home, and get food, fags, sent over...seen them collect it from post office....
i ask you this did you ever see them in buying clothes,shoes,go to cinema,go enjoy irelands beauty, ....when irish people go work out foreign, they will spend money there, they not as tight arsed

What a load of bollox.

Mena

scully74 wrote: »

dream on.....i worked with these lads, 10 of them in one house, they eat nothing, i even seen them try to do the cheap on safety, but got caught out, and very little people have the benefit of gandmothers minding kids in modren ireland.... fact not one person i know has that.
they still insure their cars and vans from home, and get food, fags, sent over...seen them collect it from post office....
i ask you this did you ever see them in buying clothes,shoes,go to cinema,go enjoy irelands beauty, ....when irish people go work out foreign, they will spend money there, they not as tight arsed

This may be true in certain cases, and even if it is, so what, it's their money. It's certainly not true in all cases. I've not sent a cent home in over 10 years now. I pay my mortgage on a 4 bed detached, pay for my 2 cars, insurance, food (all bought in Irish stores I may add), go out to eat two or three times a week, and I am certainly not unique, in the slightest.

To say foreigners don't spend their money here is well, simply a bald faced lie.

scully74 wrote: »

face it lads. irish employers are
1.greedy....screwed the foreigners when they got here.
2.greedy....screwed irish people by over charging them (houses, cars, food)
3.greedy....lined their own pockets with bulging bank accounts
4.greedy....screwing everybody cause their huge profits are at risk
paddy will always be a sneaky, greedy, backstabbing, corrupt, little man

1. I'm a foreigner and don't think I was ever "screwed" by an Irish employer, I've always earned at least double the average industrial wage and not once was I treated with anything but respect. I will grant you that abuse does happen though.

2. There is no such thing as overcharging, at least not in the cases you've highlighted (houses, cars and food). People were just prepared to pay it. So they charged it. Welcome to economics 101.

3. Again, welcome to a capatalist society. What the hell do you think "Irish employers" are there to do, provide whiney little brats with a job so they can piss it away on drink at the weekend? No, they're there to make a profit, simple as.

4. Profits at risk = failure of business usually. Why would anyone risk that just to keep the likes of you happy? It's a ludicrous notion that would never be entertained in the real world.

I'll refrain from commenting on your last point.

Finally, welcome to the EU. Adapt or die.

johnathan woss

mena wrote:

Adapt or die

Adapt or die ?

Be careful what type of world you wish for.

jimmycrackcorm

johnathan woss wrote: »

Adapt or die ?

Be careful what type of world you wish for.

Wishing has nothing to do with it - this is the real world not an imaginary "suits me" one.

Mena

johnathan woss wrote: »

Adapt or die ?

Be careful what type of world you wish for.

Yes, because I took a commonly used phrase and meant it literally... :rolleyes:

johnathan woss

Jimmy ... I've no idea what you mean, care to elaborate ?

Mena ... by "adapt or die" you meant that we live in a darwinist world; or am I mistaken ?

Mena

johnathan woss wrote: »

Jimmy ... I've no idea what you mean, care to elaborate ?

Mena ... by "adapt or die" you meant that we live in a darwinist world; or am I mistaken ?

We do live in a Darwinist world, but I don't think evolutionary biology has any place in this thread. If you meant "survival of the fittest", note that it's not a Darwinian term at all.

What I meant, simply, was that we live in a common market. The French and the Polish have as much right to a job here in Ireland as any Irish Citizen does. We, yes we need to adapt to the economic reality we face or face taking the long walk to the dole queue.

Employers are not here for your or my benefit.

Edit: And no, I didn't think you could read my mind, it's just rare that I find people take obvious hyperbole as literal fact any more.

Amalgam

Mena wrote: »

Finally, welcome to Ireland, within the EU.

Fixed that for you.

teetotaller

scully74 wrote: »

do you think the non-nations have the same expenses as us and some of us have kids in school( price of books and uniform) and overpriced houses, we can't just pack up and go to another country...thanks for sending the money out of the country,and helping prolong this resession

yes - non nationals have the same expenses or even bigger, as I for example need to buy fly tickets to visit family home.

I also pay a lot of money every month for place where I live (only me and my wife)

scully74 wrote: »

dream on.....i worked with these lads, 10 of them in one house, they eat nothing, i even seen them try to do the cheap on safety, but got caught out, and very little people have the benefit of gandmothers minding kids in modren ireland.... fact not one person i know has that.
they still insure their cars and vans from home, and get food, fags, sent over...seen them collect it from post office....
i ask you this did you ever see them in buying clothes,shoes,go to cinema,go enjoy irelands beauty, ....when irish people go work out foreign, they will spend money there, they not as tight arsed

yesss and then you woke up with your hand in the toilet.

I could say similar things about some Irish people, shopping in Northern Ireland, driving cars on northern plates, sharing house with other, downloading movies from Internet and eating bacon rolls from service stations............

But I won't say it as in every nation there are some strange people.

Micky Dolenz

johnathan woss wrote: »

Adapt or die ?

Be careful what type of world you wish for.

, wake up and smell the coco beans.

We need the EU, more than it needs us.