Sunday Business Post Red C Poll tomorrow

Pride Fighter

FF 23 - 5
FG 33 +2
Lab 19 +2
Grn 7
SF 8 + 1
Ind 10


These results I got off a website called politics.ie. Dont take them literally until confirmed but a huge shock for FF if true.

Break out the champagne:D:D

NewDubliner

Pride Fighter wrote: »

These results I got off a website called politics.ie. Dont take them literally until confirmed but a huge shock for FF if true.Break out the champagne:D:D

It's all moot. The banks are running the economy.

is_that_so

The one thing that is clear to me is that FF will lose the next election even if they last a full term.This poll merely reinforces that but it's not really a cause for any celebration. Unfortunately they are going nowhere for now and unless enough people from within the Government parties decide to withdraw their support no opinion poll in the world will make a difference. The more important question is how long will they last?

asdasd

Whatever happened to the idea of votes of no confidence. Teh greens are holding up well but will disintigrate if the economy and FF fall further.

The opposition needs to just have a vote of no confidence, and call the greens on it.

ynotdu

if true this is sensational news!
for FF it will leave them red faced and all at c! (groan)

Villain

Any FF Councillor must really be thinking about been an Indepenent at this stage

snubbleste

is_that_so wrote: »

The one thing that is clear to me is that FF will lose the next election even if they last a full term.This poll merely reinforces that but it's not really a cause for any celebration. Unfortunately they are going nowhere for now and unless enough people from within the Government parties decide to withdraw their support no opinion poll in the world will make a difference. The more important question is how long will they last?

Not neccesarily. The Irish electorate have short memories as Mary Harney put it and a general election isn't scheduled until 2012.
A lot of people wrote off FF's chances in 2007 after their local election defeats, turned out they won just under half the seats going and here we are

brianthebard

asdasd wrote: »

Whatever happened to the idea of votes of no confidence. Teh greens are holding up well but will disintigrate if the economy and FF fall further.

The opposition needs to just have a vote of no confidence, and call the greens on it.

Didn't FG have a vote of no confidence last year, wonder how often you can enter the motion?

bijapos

+1 Snubbleste. We knew going into that election they were dodgy and that the economic boom was a joke. We voted for them, we deserve them.

That they get hit at the locals might not be too bad, we might start to get councillors who might care about us and not their paymasters. Just remains to see will FG yet again take over from FF and be the servants of a few corrupt "business people".

The polls mean little to me, normally FF can expect a 5% increase in their vote in the polling booth itself, and why not, the alternative being Kenny.

It just remains to be seen how the public service vote on June 5th, 5 days after getting their pay packets with their first deductions. Shows how bad the present group of FFers are that they couldn't even plan to defer the levies for a month to help their vote a bit. Wouldn't have happened under Ahern, Seamus Brennen etc.

asdasd

A few things are needed.

FG need a new leader.
Labour and FG need to declare a pact.
Put pressure on the Greens.
No confidence votes.

There is not way this government should survive until 2012

fly_agaric

Pride Fighter wrote: »

FF 23 - 5
Break out the champagne:D:D

Almost a quarter of the electorate would still give FF the nod.

Then again FF do seem to manage to be their own best opposition (thinks of the audience fawning over McGuinness on the late-late last night).

The respondants feel they'd be voting for "good" FF (the local boyo!) rather than "that awful shower who've ruined us".:)

mikedublin

Hopefully people within Fianna Fail will realise the longer they are in power now, the worse the poll results get, and the longer it will take for them to get back into office after the next election (the difference between being out of power for 1,2 or 3 terms).
So hopefully some of the TD's will take a long term view, and help bring the government down, and help their own careers by distincing themselves from this disasterous government.

Pride Fighter

fly_agaric wrote: »

Almost a quarter of the electorate would still give FF the nod.

Then again FF do seem to manage to be their own best opposition (thinks of the audience fawning over McGuinness on the late-late last night).

The respondants feel they'd be voting for "good" FF (the local boyo!) rather than "that awful shower who've ruined us".:)

I agree with your analysis, but hopefully the people have the intellegence to see through their sly, conniving rubbish.

turgon

asdasd wrote: »

Labour and FG need to declare a pact.

The last time (07) that Labour did this is didnt serve them well at all.

Pride Fighter

turgon wrote: »

The last time (07) that Labour did this is didnt serve them well at all.

Agree, I think labour should stay in opposition next time around too. The disaster that will be FG +FF in coalition should break FF and create a true left right divide in parliament.

asdasd

The disaster that will be FG +FF in coalition should break FF and create a true left right divide in parliament.

wont happen.

bmaxi

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I agree with your analysis, but hopefully the people have the intellegence to see through their sly, conniving rubbish.

An opinion poll carried out in my local area suggests that two sitting FF councillors, both of whom have had questions to answer, will easily be returned in the local elections. It beggars belief.

Hillel

NewDubliner wrote: »

It's all moot. The banks are running the economy.

One thing is sure, Brian isn't!

ynotdu

sorry i was flippant on my first post,i am just so pissed at almost all our td,s(in all of this Richard Bruton seems to have on a consistant basis spoken sense and some positivity above party politics,me someone far from being a natural FG voter)

A new party is needed badly as it seems even in our darkest hours our kindergarden leaders could not put country first and even if it was only to show the world a better image formed a Govt of national unity(of course we would know the truth about the wasters)

so disillusioned at how short on vision they are:mad:

really how many of them are competant let alone statesmen?

we are so badly served by them:(

bcirl03

bmaxi wrote: »

An opinion poll carried out in my local area suggests that two sitting FF councillors, both of whom have had questions to answer, will easily be returned in the local elections. It beggars belief.

This 'poll' wouldn’t have been carried out by or for FF....hmmmm

bmaxi

bcirl03 wrote: »

This 'poll' wouldn’t have been carried out by or for FF....hmmmm

It was carried in a local paper, I don't know who commissioned it and they aren't saying. I can't see what benefit it would be to FF, FG maybe, although I suppose the " most people trust us" scenario could apply.

is_that_so

snubbleste wrote: »

Not neccesarily. The Irish electorate have short memories as Mary Harney put it and a general election isn't scheduled until 2012.
A lot of people wrote off FF's chances in 2007 after their local election defeats, turned out they won just under half the seats going and here we are

Local elections are used by people to give governments a bloody nose and in general can be ignored. The only real function they offer is to provide potential candidates for the next general election.

FF were not written off. What was voted for the last time was neither one nor the other. At the time there was a suggestion that being down in the polls they could lose but they recovered ,helped by boom times, Bertie the "Experienced" and that fairly silly "contract with the people" thing, from FG. Without the Green figleaf they would now be close to a minority government.

FF have really nothing going for them in 2012,if they get that far. They have a truly lousy cabinet and what is available outside is not much better. On top of this the current problems mean the Opposition parties won't even need to campaign beyond "Remember the mess they got us into".

A lot of this "they'll get back in again" seems to be based on a belief that politics began in 1997. Come the next election, our situation will be closer to the 80s. Governments came and went and were regularly punished. The Spring Tide got its comeuppance as well. As has been commented many times in this forum most people ignore politics until it either actually affects them or it's two weeks to the election.

Breezer

asdasd wrote: »

FG need a new leader.

Oh for God's sake, are people still tossing this old chestnut around?

Labour and FG need to declare a pact.

No they don't. Many FG voters don't want an alliance with Labour, as they see the party as being in bed with the trade unions. Many Labour voters don't want an alliance with FG, as they see it as too right wing. Both parties have seen a massive increase in support since the last general election, and a pact would lose them both votes. If, after the next election, compromises can be reached that are acceptable to both parties, then well and good, but there's no need for a pact at this time.

Put pressure on the Greens.

Agreed. The Green first preference vote seems to be holding up quite well, but the key is the amount of FG and Labour transfers they may have lost. We should get a better picture in June. If the Greens are losing seats, then you'll see the pressure being piled on.

irish_bob

Breezer wrote: »

Oh for God's sake, are people still tossing this old chestnut around?


No they don't. Many FG voters don't want an alliance with Labour, as they see the party as being in bed with the trade unions. Many Labour voters don't want an alliance with FG, as they see it as too right wing. Both parties have seen a massive increase in support since the last general election, and a pact would lose them both votes. If, after the next election, compromises can be reached that are acceptable to both parties, then well and good, but there's no need for a pact at this time.


Agreed. The Green first preference vote seems to be holding up quite well, but the key is the amount of FG and Labour transfers they may have lost. We should get a better picture in June. If the Greens are losing seats, then you'll see the pressure being piled on.

agree that fine gael should distance themselves from labour

im not a fine gael voter per say ( pd,s were closest to my own thinking ) and while i will in all likelyhood vote for them , if they dont start getting tough on the public sector , ill just as happy stay home

yoshytoshy

Breezer wrote: »

Both parties have seen a massive increase in support since the last general election, and a pact would lose them both votes. If, after the next election, compromises can be reached that are acceptable to both parties, then well and good, but there's no need for a pact at this time.

A pact wouldn't necessarily be needed ,theres no harm in having two enthusiastic parties running the country and keeping an eye on each other.

Once people decide what they want first ,it should be plain sailing as to what party takes responsibility from there on (I Wish:);))

Grudaire

I don't see any benifit to having FG in government. This is a typical kneejerk reaction by the electorate (Well, the poll answering part of the electorate). FG have not got the policies to change anything, they also don't have the brains in the party to bring about smart change.

Breezer wrote: »

Agreed. The Green first preference vote seems to be holding up quite well, but the key is the amount of FG and Labour transfers they may have lost. We should get a better picture in June. If the Greens are losing seats, then you'll see the pressure being piled on.

I don't see how the greens have done bad in government. People have ignored all that they have achieved and are doing the Joe (now broken legged) Duffy worthy rants about the Greens, but if you look at the actual improvements that they have brought (For 6 TD's) and compare it to the motions of 'No Confidence' we see bandied about weekly (By the second largest party) it is clear that people are attacking the wrong people

Villain

Breezer wrote: »

Oh for God's sake, are people still tossing this old chestnut around?

Its not really a old chestnut though, Kenny is holding back the party, anyone who has been around here long enough will know how I feel about Bertie but no matter what you say about the man he was likable to the majority of voters and he was able to perform as a leader, Kenny is neither likeable nor can he perform as a leader.

IMO Richard Bruton as leader of FG would add 5 points to their vote and lead them into Government.

Seth Brundle

asdasd wrote: »

Whatever happened to the idea of votes of no confidence. Teh greens are holding up well but will disintigrate if the economy and FF fall further.

The opposition needs to just have a vote of no confidence, and call the greens on it.

The greens won't shake the boat until they have earned their pension entitlements!

fly_agaric wrote: »

Almost a quarter of the electorate would still give FF the nod.

Thats a worrying statistic!

is_that_so wrote: »

Local elections are used by people to give governments a bloody nose and in general can be ignored. The only real function they offer is to provide potential candidates for the next general election.

Sure isn't local politics dealt with by TDs anyway? No need for local politicians!

irish_bob wrote: »

agree that fine gael should distance themselves from labour

im not a fine gael voter per say ( pd,s were closest to my own thinking ) and while i will in all likelyhood vote for them , if they dont start getting tough on the public sector , ill just as happy stay home

Who else would they go with to get a safe majority?

blast05

Kenny is neither likeable nor can he perform as a leader

Where is the evidence that Kenny can not perform as a leader ? The only evidence we have is that he has brought his party back from the brink to now consistently be the number 1 party by a distance in the polls.
Re Bruton or Kenny - who would you prefer to be running the economy ?

Grudaire

blast05 wrote: »

Re Bruton or Kenny - who would you prefer to be running the economy ?

Eamon Ryan

Edit: Actually... Dan Boyle

Villain

blast05 wrote: »

Where is the evidence that Kenny can not perform as a leader ? The only evidence we have is that he has brought his party back from the brink to now consistently be the number 1 party by a distance in the polls.
Re Bruton or Kenny - who would you prefer to be running the economy ?

I think you need to see a few more of his performances in the Dail, he is very weak, compare his performances to Gilmore even, I mean come on, the current Government have given him so many chances to perform in the Dail yet he has never really given a true leader performance, the only time he has come close is when he has led everyone to think he had a smoking gun but he never had.

As for bringing FG back to the Largest supported party, at the moment my nephew who is 5 could do that, imo they should be on 40 points they are loosing too many transfer voters to Labour, and re your last question the Taoiseach should lead the state and the Minister for Finance should follow that lead so I think Bruton would make a much better leader and would get more of those floating voters to follow FG rather than Labour

johnnyskeleton

The article, if anyone wants to read it:

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=41364-qqqx=1.asp

The poll shows that Libertas is making little impression so far. Support for the Lisbon Treaty remains strong, with the Yes side leading by more than 2:1.

What the?

ynotdu

and the civil war politics just goes on and on and on......................:mad:

might end up with us asking the queen to take us back and apologise for leaving the commonwealth?

lets all just prove that the Irish cant be trusted to rule themselves as the Empire had predicted................

ffs its way beyond party politics at this stage,were are our statesmen?

still the same parish pump politics from our (leaders)

still the same petty thinking from posters here that would prefer the country went under rather than treat it as a national emergency and suspend their party of choice in favour of the best minds available of the 166 td,s for a limited time.

titanic and deckchairs..........

is_that_so

Cliste wrote: »

I don't see any benifit to having FG in government. This is a typical kneejerk reaction by the electorate (Well, the poll answering part of the electorate). FG have not got the policies to change anything, they also don't have the brains in the party to bring about smart change.

It is one or the other in government. This is just another version of the "they're all the same" rant. But unlike the government both themselves and Labour do actually have plans. Whether they are good enough or not is hardly something you should be arguing seeing as you appear to be defending the incumbents' misguided policies which have landed us in this mess. This in turn quite probably explains that kneejerk reaction you are concerned about.

Cliste wrote: »

I don't see how the greens have done bad in government. People have ignored all that they have achieved and are doing the Joe (now broken legged) Duffy worthy rants about the Greens, but if you look at the actual improvements that they have brought (For 6 TD's) and compare it to the motions of 'No Confidence' we see bandied about weekly (By the second largest party) it is clear that people are attacking the wrong people

Contrary to what you might think some of us can get by in life without ever entertaining any opinion of Joe Duffy's.

So on the Greens.

They harangued FF in advance, said they wouldn't go into government with them, then pulled a political stroke that FF would have wet dreams about and since then they have done nothing but make speeches. Gormley in his first six months was effectively a FF minister. Since then all he's done is bleat about things he has no control over. Ryan started well but in the last six months seems to have done nothing but claim credit for any green initiative he can get his hands on. TBH neither they nor the Minister for Vegetables could be risked in any other ministry anyway.

Then there is that schizophrenia where Senator Boyle criticises a government he is part of. Meanwhile the Garda cars follow the boys around on their bikes. And there's the small matter of their integrity, which was always a good vote catcher for them.

So your average non-Green member has more than enough to be irate about. Remember the core vote is not the key thing for the Greens, because they are spread so thinly. Most of the candidates got in on either the last count or some of the later counts via transfers from the FG/Labour voters who probably will not transfer votes to them again.

I can't blame the Greens for their pragmatism but this is the price they pay for it. But credit where it is due they'll have to be pulled by their fingernails from this government. FF would love that level of discipline.

is_that_so

Villain wrote: »

I think you need to see a few more of his performances in the Dail, he is very weak, compare his performances to Gilmore even, I mean come on, the current Government have given him so many chances to perform in the Dail yet he has never really given a true leader performance, the only time he has come close is when he has led everyone to think he had a smoking gun but he never had.

As for bringing FG back to the Largest supported party, at the moment my nephew who is 5 could do that, imo they should be on 40 points they are loosing too many transfer voters to Labour, and re your last question the Taoiseach should lead the state and the Minister for Finance should follow that lead so I think Bruton would make a much better leader and would get more of those floating voters to follow FG rather than Labour

I find Gilmore a windbag, a populist,and he still carries that old Stickie socialist badge but I like some of their policies and I am sure when the time comes I'll look favourably on them as I will do with other parties' policies.

It's not a talent competition. To me a vote is choosing the party that best supports a voter's position on issues. Anything else is as bad as the generational FF/FG/Labour voting.

And as for transfers they are not losing anything to anybody. Labour at most can get 30 seats, assuming they can find enough decent candidates and assuming that their vote holds up. Floating voters usually have room in their hearts for lots of shades.

Grudaire

is_that_so wrote: »

It is one or the other. This is just another version of the "they're all the same" rant. But unlike the government both themselves and Labour do actually have plans. Whether they are good enough or not is hardly something you should be arguing seeing as you appear to be defending the incumbents' misguided policies which have landed us in this mess. This in turn quite probably explains that kneejerk reaction you are concerned about.

Don't get me wrong - FF are as bad, they have better people (who far too often manage to do worse things). My point is that FG don't convince me. They would have walked us blindly into this recession like FF (The election promises are and were equally as crazy).

Of all of the larger parties right now Labour are the only ones that I would trust to help me cross the road.

is_that_so wrote: »

Contrary to what you might think some of us can get by in life without ever entertaining any opinion of Joe Duffy's.

Good to hear (It was meant as an ironic comparison, however a LOT of people do listen to the man, don't overestimate the Irish population)

is_that_so wrote: »

They harangued FF in advance, said they wouldn't go into government with them, then pulled a political stroke that FF would have wet dreams about and since then they have done nothing but make speeches. Gormley in his first six months was effectively a FF minister. Since then all he's done is bleat about thing he has no control over. Ryan started well but in the last six months seems to have done nothing but claim credit for any green initiative he can get his hands on. TBH neither they nor the Minister for Vegetables could be risked in any other ministry anyway.

Since I'm using equally sensationalist language I can't really complain about yours, However:

The Green party have achieved far far more then they would have outside Government. We have Trevor who resigned as the party went into Government - on principle (ie. he kept his word). it is my opinion that any other party leader would have said something along the lines of "that was then - things have changed" and promptly lead them into government. Now please make a list of everything that they have done, and then come back to me with complaints about that list.

is_that_so wrote: »

Then there is that schizophrenia where Senator Boyle criticises a government he is part of. Meanwhile the Garda cars follow the boys around on their bikes. And there's the small matter of their integrity, which was always a good vote catcher for them.

Firstly: The Green Party is unusual as a party - I mean they held a vote about what the party line would be about Lisbon. I think this allows for a bottom up leadership structure rather then the top down structure that exists in other parties. Ok it can seem a bit mad at times, but its the better party structure.

Secondly: Why are they followed by the Garda cars? Is it because they have insisted on having the escort? Lets be honest, it's the rules that are the problem - not the individuals.

is_that_so wrote: »

So your average non-Green voter has more than enough to be irate about. Remember the core vote is not the key thing for the Greens, because they are spread so thinly. Most of the candidates got in on either the last count or some of the later counts via transfers from the FG/Labour voters who probably will not transfer votes to them again.

it remains to be seen - as I have said about kneejerk reactions, I think/hope that once people have looked at the facts about the Green Party, and weigh up the alternatives that they see that the greens are not the bad guys. (I know I keep saying it - but there's 6 of them, they've achieved a lot)

is_that_so

Cliste wrote: »

Good to hear (It was meant as an ironic comparison, however a LOT of people do listen to the man, don't overestimate the Irish population)



Since I'm using equally sensationalist language I can't really complain about yours, However:

The Green party have achieved far far more then they would have outside Government. We have Trevor who resigned as the party went into Government - on principle (ie. he kept his word). it is my opinion that any other party leader would have said something along the lines of "that was then - things have changed" and promptly lead them into government. Now please make a list of everything that they have done, and then come back to me with complaints about that list.



Firstly: The Green Party is unusual as a party - I mean they held a vote about what the party line would be about Lisbon. I think this allows for a bottom up leadership structure rather then the top down structure that exists in other parties. Ok it can seem a bit mad at times, but its the better party structure.

Cliste wrote: »

Secondly: Why are they followed by the Garda cars? Is it because they have insisted on having the escort? Lets be honest, it's the rules that are the problem - not the individuals.

This is to carry the Ministerial papers as well as follow them when they go off on their bikes. Not quite as Green as they seem.

Cliste wrote: »

it remains to be seen - as I have said about kneejerk reactions, I think/hope that once people have looked at the facts about the Green Party, and weigh up the alternatives that they see that the greens are not the bad guys. (I know I keep saying it - but there's 6 of them, they've achieved a lot)

Again I think you are blinkered here and for the life of me I can't see why you can't see the whole resignation for the genius political stroke that it was. If he was really a man of integrity he would have stayed out.

I also think you overlook how we floating voters view the Green party. The word integrity ranked high on that list. I don't deny that they could achieve more in government but the measurement of what exactly they have achieved is the question. I don't see that achievement and I find them particularly self-serving but as I said they are all in. I think they do and will find credit in the Green party but quite probably not with the rest of us.

Grudaire

is_that_so wrote: »

This is to carry the Ministerial papers as well as follow them when they go off on their bikes. Not quite as Green as they seem.

I somehow doubt that it's their choice to be followed by the cars, and until I see proof of them insisting on being followed I'll not believe it (If you have proof to hand do tell me, I end up discussing this a lot - so you'll spread the word to far more than me!)

is_that_so wrote: »

Again I think you are blinkered here and for the life of me I can't see why you can't see the whole resignation for the genius political stroke that it was. If he was really a man of integrity he would have stayed out.

I also think you overlook how we floating voters view the Green party. The word integrity ranked high on that list. I don't deny that they could achieve more in government but the measurement of what exactly they have achieved is the question. I don't see that achievement and I find them particularly self-serving but as I said they are all in. I think they do and will find credit in the Green party but quite probably not with the rest of us.

I see it was playing the system alright - but I think that compromises must be made, and at the end of the day it's not like they took money,

I don't think that you're backing up your claims here at all.

Seth Brundle

Its irrelevant on whether or not its their choice. If the car is indeed carrying their papers then they are effectively using the car

Grudaire

kbannon wrote: »

Its irrelevant on whether or not its their choice. If the car is indeed carrying their papers then they are effectively using the car

If the car follows them - BY LAW - then what do you want from them?

asdasd

If the car follows them - BY LAW - then what do you want from them?

magical flying ministerial papers.

is_that_so

Cliste wrote: »

I see it was playing the system alright - but I think that compromises must be made, and at the end of the day it's not like they took money,

I don't think that you're backing up your claims here at all.

Enough for me not to consider voting for them. Would you have me back up my assertion that FF are utterly inept as well or are you just challenging me due to your own involvement with the party? This is all about perception, in this case mine, and I just don't see the great job they're doing whereas for you all is rosy.

Breezer

Cliste wrote: »

I don't see any benifit to having FG in government.

You're entitled to your opinion.

This is a typical kneejerk reaction by the electorate (Well, the poll answering part of the electorate).

Perhaps. But, if so, the knee has been jerking for quite a long time at this stage.

FG have not got the policies to change anything, they also don't have the brains in the party to bring about smart change.

I'm sorry, what? To give 3 examples:

Almost everyone I've spoken to, regardless of their political views, wants Richard Bruton running finance at the moment. Why? Because he has been consistently right on almost every economic matter for most of the past decade.

While Batt O'Keeffe has got his sums wrong, and Paul Gogarty has ranted, raved, flip flopped, and rolled around on the floor, Brian Hayes has produced a very workable policy on the funding of third level education.

James Reilly, presumably fed up of waiting for Mary Harney to cure cancer through co-location, will later today announce the details of a universal healthcare policy, based on the model that has put the Netherlands' health system in the #1 spot in Europe.

My point is that FG don't convince me. They would have walked us blindly into this recession like FF (The election promises are and were equally as crazy).

To pluck a few random points from the Greens' 2007 manifesto:

http://www.greenparty.ie/en/about/party_archives/election_2007/manifesto_2007

Health - Provide an additional 4000 beds to cut A&E queues. Introduce medical cards for children under 6.

Education - Invest €1 billion in education for the first year of the next Government to front-load educational priorities. Provide 2,400 extra teachers at primary and secondary levels.

Tax - Reduce both VAT rates by 1%.

All the parties were promising the sun, moon and stars in 2007, because they were all being forced to compete with Bertie the fairy godmother.

ynotdu wrote:

and the civil war politics just goes on and on and on......................

Who said anything about the civil war?

still the same petty thinking from posters here that would prefer the country went under rather than treat it as a national emergency and suspend their party of choice in favour of the best minds available of the 166 td,s for a limited time.

I don't think anyone wants the country to go under. I'd be happy to support a unity government if I believed it would help. Who exactly is the government offering up to form part of this unity government? Mary Coughlan? Willie O'Dea? Apparently so, since Brian Cowen is busy sacking anyone in FF with the balls to call a spade a spade. So no, I won't offer the government a cop out. Hold a general election and let the people decide who is best equipped to lead us out of this mess.

ynotdu

Breezer wow how clever you are!

I wont respond to your quote about who said anything about the civil war as if you do not know how FG/FF came to be,i suggest you study history.not My job to teach you.


who says a Govt of national unity would have Brian Cowen as its leader anyway?

Breezer

ynotdu wrote: »

Breezer wow how clever you are!

Why thank you.

I wont respond to your quote about who said anything about the civil war as if you do not know how FG/FF came to be,i suggest you study history.not My job to teach you.

I am well aware of the origins of both parties, thank you very much. I'd like to feel that most supporters of both have now moved beyond the civil war (while being painfully aware that some haven't and never will). My point was that myself and other posters here were discussing modern day policy and strategy, and the only person to mention the civil war was your good self.

who says a Govt of national unity would have Brian Cowen as its leader anyway?

No one said that. I said that he is actively repressing any kind of independent thought within his party, and therefore it's difficult to see who of any quality his party could offer to a government of national unity.

ynotdu

Breezer wrote: »

Why thank you.

I am well aware of the origins of both parties, thank you very much. I'd like to feel that most supporters of both have now moved beyond the civil war (while being painfully aware that some haven't and never will). My point was that myself and other posters here were discussing modern day policy and strategy, and the only person to mention the civil war was your good self.

No one said that. I said that he is actively repressing any kind of independent thought within his party, and therefore it's difficult to see who of any quality his party could offer to a government of national unity.

It is difficult to spot a competant cabinet from all 166 of them.

Breezer

ynotdu wrote: »

It is difficult to spot a competant cabinet from all 166 of them.

So you would agree, then, despite your earlier protestations, that a general election where the people could freely elect a new Dáil would be preferable to a half baked 'government of national unity' comprising elements of this one?

oscarBravo

Villain wrote: »

...Kenny is holding back the party, anyone who has been around here long enough will know how I feel about Bertie but no matter what you say about the man he was likable to the majority of voters and he was able to perform as a leader, Kenny is neither likeable nor can he perform as a leader.

That's a near-perfect summation of why this country has been comprehensively ****ed for years, is completely and utterly ****ed now, and will remain ****ed for the foreseeable future.

Why? Because the electorate take politics almost as seriously as they take Pop Idol.

The leader of the opposition is described as "not likeable" - only, it must be noted, by people who've never met him - and "not a leader" - despite the turnaround in the fortunes of the party since he took over.

If we're holding up Bertie Ahern as the model leader that Fine Gael should be aspiring to, then let's just shut the ****ing country down and have done with it. We have the government we deserve, and we always will.

Maybe Michael Lowry should be FG leader? You can't argue with his popularity. Maybe we should get rid of elections and have a reality TV show, with SMS voting.

Jesus, this country drives me to despair sometimes.

asdasd

Why? Because the electorate take politics almost as seriously as they take Pop Idol.

Nearly every democratic country is like that. Nixon lost against Kennedy because of a sweaty upper lip. Blair is likeable, as is Clinton and Obama. That's democracy.

The smart reason to dislike Kenny is not because he is not likeable but because he is crap. I say this as a neutral. Has kenny come out with good ideas? Fantastic. I dont know about it, did he tell the faithful at an Ard Fheis.

Not good enough. He needs to be on TV every single day. His "turnaround in the fortunes of the party since he took over" is because FF have presided over the biggest economic calamity since independence.

In fact I am pretty sure that Noonan would be better. He would be tearing into the government now, and probably doing something about severing the connection with the Greens. And lobbing no confidence motions around like confetti.

oscarBravo

asdasd wrote: »

Nearly every democratic country is like that. Nixon lost against Kennedy because of a sweaty upper lip. Blair is likeable, as is Clinton and Obama. That's democracy.

Yup. Democracy is a pretty god-awful way to run a country. If only I could think of a better way.

[Kenny] needs to be on TV every single day.

...

[Noonan] would be tearing into the government now, and... lobbing no confidence motions around like confetti.

In both cases, people would be complaining about what annoying, self-aggrandising windbags they are. What's achieved by tearing into the government? Nothing. Our so-called "democracy" is broken; the way it's currently structured, opposition might as well not exist. A parliamentary majority is a short-term dictatorship.

His "turnaround in the fortunes of the party since he took over" is because FF have presided over the biggest economic calamity since independence.

And we, the right-thinking people of this fair republic, will reward FF for their mind-boggling, breathtaking incompetence - why? because FG mightn't be much better.

Like I say, the government we deserve.

asdasd

because FG mightn't be much better.

FG is going to get more seats in the next election. How many more is up to FG.

( I liked noonan by the way, so I may be biased)