Minimum wage.

murphaph

It may surprise many to hear that there is no minimum wage in Germany and you can legally work for €1 an hour (so called "mini-jobs"). Germany would be perceived by many as an expensive place to do business but in reality, is Ireland the bloated overpaid sick man of Europe? Is it time for the minimum wage to go? Or be reduced dramatically? Is it preventing employers from hiring? Would some people rather stay in low(er) paid employment than sit on the dole and stagnate? I believe the answer is yes. Any opinions on the minimum wage?

bobcar61

It surprised me when I heard that. My manager is German,the most sound down to earth fella and another colleague is German. They both moved away from Germany when they were 16,one is now 30 and the other 44.

We were talking about Germany and I asked if they would go back..got a very strong NO from the two as they said they could be working for nothing if they went home. Alot of cleaners in hotels get paid next to nothing.

I think the minimum wage is needed in Ireland at the moment,if it was to be abolished employers could pay employees what they want and it may not justify with the cost of living.

mikemac

Every cut in the minimum wage will have to be matched or exceeded by cuts in the job seekers rate.
We already of cases where people can get more on job seekers and other benefits then working low paid jobs.

A cut in minimum wage will make this situation worse unless some minister takes the unpopular decision to slash welfare.

As for my opinion. I've paid rent and supported myself on minimum wage. It can be done but the cost of living here is very high.
So I say no, don't cut it

ScouseMouse

Of course it needs to go. We have allowed ourselves to get lazy and make excessive demands. The unions have demanded to much and now, we have priced ourselves out of the international market.

Cuts will be painful, but have to happen.

Source of this information? Daily life, the news, FAS, and on and on.

bobcar61

I'm still paying rent and bills and running a car on minimum wage while also attending college full time.
If minimum wage was cut then there is no way I'd be able to keep this up so I would have to cut something out.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

kulchie

haven't we always had a minimum wage? i.e. the dole, who is going to work for less than this amount?

Webmonkey

kulchie wrote: »

haven't we always had a minimum wage? i.e. the dole, who is going to work for less than this amount?

I would. I'd rather work under the price of the dole and get experience rather than getting depressed at home doing nothing.

Het-Field

Its part of the Government's package of "savings". It wont be cut now ! Slowly but surely ebbing away our competitiveness

Victor

murphaph wrote: »

It may surprise many to hear that there is no minimum wage in Germany

Not quite - there is no national minimum wage in Germany. However, the vast majority of employments are covered by industry / local agreements.

How about cuts in the maximum salaries and dividends that some busniess owners and managers have been taking?

TheInquisitor

Ireland has gotten way ahead of itself. The irish minimum wage is now the 2nd highest in europe. We should be at the most in line with the UK. The UK minimum wage is £5.71 which translates to roughly E6.40 and not the crazy hourly rate of E8.75. There is no justification for this ridiculously high cost. A minimum wage of 6-6.5 euro is where the minimum wage should be at. Unemployment beneft is also ludicrously high. 3 times the UK rate

nesf

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Ireland has gotten way ahead of itself. The irish minimum wage is now the 2nd highest in europe. We should be at the most in line with the UK. The UK minimum wage is £5.71 which translates to roughly E6.40 and not the crazy hourly rate of E8.75. There is no justification for this ridiculously high cost. A minimum wage of 6-6.5 euro is where the minimum wage should be at. Unemployment beneft is also ludicrously high. 3 times the UK rate

That's mostly due to Sterling being so bloody cheap at the moment in Euro terms. This situation is slowly reversing, though I wouldn't say that we'll return to the exchange rates of old necessarily. I don't think comparisons with the UK right now are very useful because wage rates and welfare payments there are still for the most part set by the old exchange rates.

Looking at other European countries is more informative:

Less than 300 Euros/Month

* Bulgaria - 113.17
* Romania - 132.70
* Latvia - 228
* Lithuania - 234
* Hungary - 261
* Slovakia - 268
* Estonia - 278
* Poland - 291

301-999 Euros/Month

* Czech Republic - 313
* Portugal - 426
* Slovenia - 538.53
* Spain - 600
* Greece - 605
* Malta - 612.29

Greater than 1,000 Euros/Month

* France - 1,280.07
* Belgium - 1,309.59
* Netherlands - 1,335
* United Kingdom - 1,361
* Ireland - 1,403
* Luxembourg - 1,570.28


Data: http://eeuropeanrussianaffairs.suite101.com/article.cfm/european_union_minimum_monthly_salaries_2008 Exchange rates were as of January 2008, which is why the UK is so high, its minimum wage used to be one of the higher ones in Euro terms not so long ago.

silverharp

Just to add that we are in a deflationary environment at the moment so pegging any wage too high is dangerous. Also with Stg. that is small comfort for any business in the border region. You probably have a crazy situation where retail employees and the like in the border region are shopping in the North , but will be scrathing their heads soon why their workplaces are shutting down and cutting back.

Belfast

There is no need for a minimum wage.
Nobody will work for less than they get on the dole.

murphaph

In Germany the long term unemployed single person with no dependents receives €351 per month + the cost of basic housing in your area. So the german state may be paying out as little as €550 a month for food and housing in the poorer parts of Germany whereas in Ireland the payment would be app. €840 + rent supplement (easily €400 in the poorest parts of Ireland). So Ireland pays app €1240 for the same person.

The federal government released set menus that provide a balanced nutritious diet that can be paid for with the so called Hartz IV payment. This stuff was very conroversial when it was going through parliament but Germany saw the fact it needed to reduce welfare payments and it did. If you lose your job you don't immediately go to the €351 payment of course, you go to a set percentage of your last salary and it slides downwards to encourage you not to be too fussy when considering other jobs.

This stuff doesn't add up. Germany is a G8 nation, the most productive nation on earth. Ireland has been overpaying itself for too long now and has to realign it's expectations in line with international (especially european) reality.

Victor

murphaph wrote: »

In Germany the long term unemployed single person with no dependents receives €351 per month + the cost of basic housing in your area. So the german state may be paying out as little as €550 a month for food and housing in the poorer parts of Germany whereas in Ireland the payment would be app. €840 + rent supplement (easily €400 in the poorest parts of Ireland). So Ireland pays app €1240 for the same person.

I'm not sure where you are getting your figures from. AFAIK full unemployment benefit is €204 per week (€884 per month) and the highest rent allowance is under €400 for a single person or a couple in shared accommodation. Rent allowance is means assessed.

The German system used to pay two thirds of your salary (I don't know for how long).

TheInquisitor

nesf wrote: »

That's mostly due to Sterling being so bloody cheap at the moment in Euro terms. This situation is slowly reversing, though I wouldn't say that we'll return to the exchange rates of old necessarily. I don't think comparisons with the UK right now are very useful because wage rates and welfare payments there are still for the most part set by the old exchange rates.

Looking at other European countries is more informative:

Less than 300 Euros/Month

* Bulgaria - 113.17
* Romania - 132.70
* Latvia - 228
* Lithuania - 234
* Hungary - 261
* Slovakia - 268
* Estonia - 278
* Poland - 291

301-999 Euros/Month

* Czech Republic - 313
* Portugal - 426
* Slovenia - 538.53
* Spain - 600
* Greece - 605
* Malta - 612.29

Greater than 1,000 Euros/Month

* France - 1,280.07
* Belgium - 1,309.59
* Netherlands - 1,335
* United Kingdom - 1,361
* Ireland - 1,403
* Luxembourg - 1,570.28


Data: http://eeuropeanrussianaffairs.suite101.com/article.cfm/european_union_minimum_monthly_salaries_2008 Exchange rates were as of January 2008, which is why the UK is so high, its minimum wage used to be one of the higher ones in Euro terms not so long ago.

Even when we look at when the British pound was at its strongest versus the euro at roughly £.7 to E1 at £5.71 which is their current minimum wage, translates to E8.15 which is still 50c cheaper than ireland. But the important thing is the UK exchange rate is at .9 and not .7 and it won't go back to the .7 mark for a very long time if ever.

ynotdu

how weird some comments on here are.no dispute that we are now a high cost economy to the point we are no longer competitive,but whats so annoying is how many want to target the lowest wage and social welfare rates as almost a first resort not a last.

exemption from the min wage for small buisness would make sense to save jobs,with the provider that the workers see for themselves th

e company are in trouble and by vote volunteer a pay cut.

there is no doubt some social welfare payments got too genorus during the boom but leaving other schemes aside the basic rate of e204 for a single person or e360 for a married couple is at our current basic food and utility bill costs not going to leave genuine people in the lap of luxury?

min wage in mediom to large large industrys could easily be left alone if the higher paid within the company took big pay cuts.

those who complain about how much basic payments are on social welfare I would ask during the boom did you just buy what took your fancy without looking at the price tag?if so you are guilty of the need for such high welfare costs.

supply and demand means a retailor builder etc will charge what people are prepared to pay.by people who were on a roll just buying without wondering was it value for money it caused inflation,as a result just to have the most basic of items welfare payments had to increase just for people to survive.

murphaph

Victor wrote: »

I'm not sure where you are getting your figures from. AFAIK full unemployment benefit is €204 per week (€884 per month) and the highest rent allowance is under €400 for a single person or a couple in shared accommodation. Rent allowance is means assessed.

The German system used to pay two thirds of your salary (I don't know for how long).

Sorry, I thought dole was 210 but if you say it's 204 I'll accept that. My figures are still pretty close though and it is clear that an unemplyed single person with no dependents and no other income or assets (apart from dole) living in the 'poorest' parts of Ireland will receive well over twice the equivalent payment of their german counterpart.

The 2/3 rule lasts for 1 year IIRC and then slides down until you end up on Hartz IV (€351 per calendar month).

murphaph

ynotdu wrote: »

how weird some comments on here are.no dispute that we are now a high cost economy to the point we are no longer competitive,but whats so annoying is how many want to target the lowest wage and social welfare rates as almost a first resort not a last.

I agree that the better paid should lead by example but if you're a small business (or even a big one) the minimum wage is DEFINITELY a barrier to job creation.

ynotdu wrote: »

exemption from the min wage for small buisness would make sense to save jobs,with the provider that the workers see for themselves the company are in trouble and by vote volunteer a pay cut.

This wouldn't be legal. Each employee must agree to the pay cut asked of them. They can refuse and stick to their contract. Check out the entrepreneurs forum-there's a poster there who's employees have been shown the books of the struggling business but who still refuse to accept a pay cut to keep them all in employment. He's left with one option-making a few of them redundant to cut costs.

ynotdu wrote: »

there is no doubt some social welfare payments got too genorus during the boom but leaving other schemes aside the basic rate of e204 for a single person or e360 for a married couple is at our current basic food and utility bill costs not going to leave genuine people in the lap of luxury?

But that's why I brought Germany into it-these payments are seen as the bare minimum needed to live. That's what they are supposed to be. You shouldn't be able to afford 2 weeks in Majorca on your dole money and if you can, it's too high. I don't mean to sound harsh here but these payments should be subsistence payments that allow you to buy basic foodstuffs and no more.

ynotdu wrote: »

min wage in mediom to large large industrys could easily be left alone if the higher paid within the company took big pay cuts.

True but there also needs to be an incentive for the entrepreneurs to actually start a business. If they take on the risk of starting a business and then employ people, they should (by natural justice) make the most money.

ynotdu wrote: »

those who complain about how much basic payments are on social welfare I would ask during the boom did you just buy what took your fancy without looking at the price tag?if so you are guilty of the need for such high welfare costs.

supply and demand means a retailor builder etc will charge what people are prepared to pay.by people who were on a roll just buying without wondering was it value for money it caused inflation,as a result just to have the most basic of items welfare payments had to increase just for people to survive.

We're not in a boom now and prices are falling. People in employment, even secure, are being more prudent and frugal (at last). In any case, baisc foodstuffs can be bought at reasonable prices in discount retailers.

rugbyman

I would like to introduce a few facts here. some have been touched on.

In france minimum monthly salary is 1280, but unemployment payment are around 900 euro. so a job only pays the worker approx 7o euro per week to work. if it involves travel costs he is likely to choose to stay at home.
the total cost to the employer ,who is paying this minimum wage is much, much higher than the cost to the Irish employer.

i was told in FRANCE last week that a student, having left school cannot get unemployment money untill he has worked for six months. True/untrue i dont know.


In Belgium figures are around the same but the cost to the employer is 107 % more than the take home pay. To pay a man 500 euro per week net costs about 1100 euro.


In Ireland, from the employers point of view, the excess costs of hiring someone on the minimum wage are not nearly as high as either of the above.

however, i agree that our minimum wage is too high, but untill the "dole" is cut, it would not be so easy to cut the minimum wage. I have always felt that the introduction of the minimum wage ,along with its many increases did away with lots of jobs.
If a young person ,living at home and therefore not getting the 204 euro/week unemployment money could get a run of the mill job at 250 per week, would he not be glad of it.


To conclude ,on this rambling rant.., Our O A P S are grossly overpaid at 430 euro per couple per week.. In the north the equivalent is 160 Pounds, even at a traditional exchange rate of 1.20 that is less than 180 euro.
250 euro per week more.

Regards Rugbyman

the_syco

TheInquisitor wrote: »

The UK minimum wage is £5.71 which translates to roughly E6.40 and not the crazy hourly rate of E8.75. There is no justification for this ridiculously high cost. A minimum wage of 6-6.5 euro is where the minimum wage should be at. Unemployment beneft is also ludicrously high. 3 times the UK rate

Interesting you use a recent exchange rate... could you give the euro equivalent from two years ago? I'm sure back then, the difference to our minimum wage wasn't that much.

ynotdu

hi murphaph,there is a lot of smoke and mirrors going on about deflation.
Lenihan said in the supplementry budget that inflation/deflation is being closely watched with a view to cutting rates in the november budget.
the reality is their is very little evidence that the price of basic foodstuffs is coming down at anything like the rate they inflated to in the boom years(cant deny fuel prices are though)

lot of deflation is on non essential items and loss leaders by supermarkets.
still a long way to go before deflation counteracts the inflation of the crazy years,
Regards

eamonnm79

ynotdu wrote: »

how weird some comments on here are.no dispute that we are now a high cost economy to the point we are no longer competitive,but whats so annoying is how many want to target the lowest wage and social welfare rates as almost a first resort not a last.

I couldnt agree more.
Anyone who has posted demanding a reduction in the minimum wage and has not made any posts withregard to closing off the huge tax loop holes for the very wealthy in society are IMHO morally bankrupt.

However not only is it the morally bankrupt one could also argue its economicly a very weak arguement too.

People on the minimum wage are not the type of people who save or invest. nearly 100 % of their income goes straight back into the economy. Poorer people proportionately do more for the general economy than those who can afford to save or invest their money. Taking money from these people would have an emidiate effect on our GDP.
I am not so sure I even buy the arguement that it would create that many more jobs.
I'm 30 but I remember before we had a minimum wage. I was earning €2 an hour as a lounge boy plus tips.
My lecturer in used to argue that if there was a minimum wage then many of the jobs like lounge boys, and other forms of casual work would be far less.
When the min wage came in and my hourly rate went up to 3.45 no one got the sack!
Ok maybe the prices in the hotel went up a little but because it was the same for every hotel it didnt have comparitive advantage for anyone.

silverharp

eamonnm79 wrote: »

People on the minimum wage are not the type of people who save or invest. nearly 100 % of their income goes straight back into the economy. Poorer people proportionately do more for the general economy than those who can afford to save or invest their money. Taking money from these people would have an emidiate effect on our GDP.

I have to disagree with that, there is no way to measure such a statement? unless pay reflects productivity and profitability then there will be a price to pay.

murphaph

eamonnm79 wrote: »

I couldnt agree more.
Anyone who has posted demanding a reduction in the minimum wage and has not made any posts withregard to closing off the huge tax loop holes for the very wealthy in society are IMHO morally bankrupt.

Eh? I don't think on an adult forum that one should need to qualify every point with another just in case people are going to start namecalling. I think most people on here would AUTOMATICALLY accept that tax loopholes for very high earners should be closed off.

eamonnm79 wrote: »

People on the minimum wage are not the type of people who save or invest. nearly 100 % of their income goes straight back into the economy. Poorer people proportionately do more for the general economy than those who can afford to save or invest their money. Taking money from these people would have an emidiate effect on our GDP.I am not so sure I even buy the arguement that it would create that many more jobs.
I'm 30 but I remember before we had a minimum wage. I was earning €2 an hour as a lounge boy plus tips.
My lecturer in used to argue that if there was a minimum wage then many of the jobs like lounge boys, and other forms of casual work would be far less.
When the min wage came in and my hourly rate went up to 3.45 no one got the sack!
Ok maybe the prices in the hotel went up a little but because it was the same for every hotel it didnt have comparitive advantage for anyone.

Your example works on a small scale. Unfortunately our hotels aren't just competing with each other any more, they're competing with hotels in other countries. Ireland is very uncompetitive now and we have no reason to be arrogant as we developed precious few indigenous industries during the boom years. we went from FDI to construction and forgot to develop irish exporting companies. Now we're screwed and we need to cut costs rapidly to keep what remains of our FDI and grab as much of the scarce stuff as possible. Wages have to be cut and our standard of living must fall.

A foreign multinational doesn't give a rats ass whether or not the wages they pay all go back into the national economies of the countries they operate in. They just care about the cost to them. We failed to break away from dependence on FDI and now we must cut our cloth to suit our measure and try to compete with central and eastern Europe (and Germany).

TheInquisitor

the_syco wrote: »

Interesting you use a recent exchange rate... could you give the euro equivalent from two years ago? I'm sure back then, the difference to our minimum wage wasn't that much.

I did if you read the comments further down . Even using rates when the UK's currency was at its strongest we still have a minimum wage over 50c per hour more than the UK

eamonnm79

murphaph wrote: »

Eh? I don't think on an adult forum that one should need to qualify every point with another just in case people are going to start namecalling. I think most people on here would AUTOMATICALLY accept that tax loopholes for very high earners should be closed off.


Your example works on a small scale. Unfortunately our hotels aren't just competing with each other any more, they're competing with hotels in other countries. Ireland is very uncompetitive now and we have no reason to be arrogant as we developed precious few indigenous industries during the boom years. we went from FDI to construction and forgot to develop irish exporting companies. Now we're screwed and we need to cut costs rapidly to keep what remains of our FDI and grab as much of the scarce stuff as possible. Wages have to be cut and our standard of living must fall.

A foreign multinational doesn't give a rats ass whether or not the wages they pay all go back into the national economies of the countries they operate in. They just care about the cost to them. We failed to break away from dependence on FDI and now we must cut our cloth to suit our measure and try to compete with central and eastern Europe (and Germany).

You are justifying a race to the bottom. Ireland will loose this race if it tries to enter. There is no way we can compete on price with eastern Europe. We have a different product them them here in Ireland inc. We need to differentiate and find our niche. Some people visit Sweeden , Norway and Denmark even though its a more expensive than Ireland.
If we make all the people in europe poorer and pay them less who is going to be the people who buys all the consumer goods that the europeans can no longer afford?

The free marke arguement about reducing wages to create jobs has always been overrated in my opinion. We created many many jobs in Ireland in the last 10 years during a consistant increase in the minimum wage.

murphaph

eamonnm79 wrote: »

You are justifying a race to the bottom. Ireland will loose this race if it tries to enter. There is no way we can compete on price with eastern Europe. We have a different product them them here in Ireland inc. We need to differentiate and find our niche.

Sorry Eamon-I've been hearing this same line for too many years now. How many years of prosperity does a country need to "find its niche" exactly? My point is that we had a chance and failed to do it. Now we must go cap in hand to the FDI crowd and work for less money. We simply don't have the luxury of time to develop niche products as our country is hemmoraging money (€60,000,000 a day!) just to pay the wages/welfare bill.

Long term we do need to develop high value export businesses but my point is that this process takes many years and we don't have time. We need people in employment, any employment, at any price to keep them off welfare.

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Some people visit Sweeden , Norway and Denmark even though its a more expensive than Ireland.

Going somewhere on holidays is hardly comparable to a business deciding where to locate!

eamonnm79 wrote: »

If we make all the people in europe poorer and pay them less who is going to be the people who buys all the consumer goods that the europeans can no longer afford?

I'm not talking about the rest of Europe. Most of the rest of Europe is already operating on a much lower cost basis. The scandinavians can afford to be expensive-the Norwegians have oil, the swedes have iron ore and other natural resources, the finns have forestry and ship building and all of them have still developed high value export driven companies ALREADY (Nokia, Ericsson, ABB, Saab-Scannia, Volvo, Statoil etc. etc. etc.). We can't afford such expense because we make very little that the world wants (unless it's made by mostly US companies who happen to be located here).

eamonnm79 wrote: »

The free marke arguement about reducing wages to create jobs has always been overrated in my opinion. We created many many jobs in Ireland in the last 10 years during a consistant increase in the minimum wage.

You do realise though that the last 10 years was a credit fueled mirage of prosperity across the globe don't you? The bubble has burst!!!

Victor

TheInquisitor wrote: »

I did if you read the comments further down . Even using rates when the UK's currency was at its strongest we still have a minimum wage over 50c per hour more than the UK

You conjured up this image for me: http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/05/15/funny-pictures-scary-baby-panda-oooooooooh/

ardmacha

Irish economic growth has not been all fake, there was a real increase in our living standards, especially in the late 1990s. But some of the increase in recent years has simply been based on borrowed money. The minimum wage should be reduced by 10% forthwith and by more for young people. This is not a race to the bottom, Ireland should identify profitable niches and we can do then. When we do so we can then raise the minimum wage.

eamonnm79

murphaph wrote: »

You do realise though that the last 10 years was a credit fueled mirage of prosperity across the globe don't you? The bubble has burst!!!

Look, I think you are making some very good points but overall my belief is that it is free market economic thinking that got us in to this mess and I dont think that free market economic ideas are going to get us out of it.
My ideas in general about our future would be as punitive as yours and I agree that we are going to all lower our living standards however I dont want to go back to free market economics of the mad house.
I dont think our citizens are active enough citizens, I think the figures of our foreign debt per capita are very very scary over $500k per person.
I am even open to the idea of the only loans being given for the next ten years being mortgages and business loans.

murphaph

I am advocating a serious look at the minimum wage as I believe it's too high for us to compete internationally in these changed times. I do not believe in an unregulated free market and totally believe that the regulation of banks (in particular) was insufficient and needs strengthening, especially seeing as we taxpayers are now holding the babies.

I just think we need to be realistic about what we can afford to pay ourselves before it's too late.

lmimmfn

ireland needs a reality check, both the minimum wage and current welfare payments keep the cost of everything sky high here,

An example would be McDonalds staff, they are( maybe were lol ) getting over 10 euro an hour, for a crap menial job, of course that caused the prices of burgers and what not there to hit the roof, its the same for anything else.

Social welfare and minimum wage are the bottom of the barrel, increases/decreases in them directly affect the price of nearly everything in this country, if its artificially high then the cost of everything else will be artificially high.

It really is a no brainer, i remember back in 2002/2003 they increased the minimum wage by 25cent or something like that and then the price of pints went up everywhere in dublin by 5 cent lol

ynotdu

Its all the fault of the lowest income members of society.The people who only think in Billions or short term electoral support(the superior silver spooned ones)are innocent!!!!!!!!


Free the Banking six!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


yadah yadah yadah................

murphaph

ynotdu wrote: »

Its all the fault of the lowest income members of society.The people who only think in Billions or short term electoral support(the superior silver spooned ones)are innocent!!!!!!!!


Free the Banking six!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


yadah yadah yadah................

If you can't manage to construct an argument then don't bother posting. You seem to have a fixation with apportioning blame to someone for our economic woes.

Well, people are to blame. Everyone. Governments for failing to regulate lending, banks for lending irresponsibly and ordinary joes for borrowing irresponsibly. We have been living off imaginary money for years now. Wealth is not measured by your credit card limit!

The senior bankers should be hung drawn and quartered as far as I'm concerned but that won't bring our economy into a position where it is competitive with even the likes of Germany.

The "lowest paid" in ireland are still better paid than their counterparts in other EU countries. That's the problem. We can continue to believe that it'll all blow over and that factories aren't closing down every day and then we'll find ourselves in 1950's Ireland again. Ireland dragged itself out of the bog by being a competitive place to do business.

Niall Keane

Advocating the abolition of the minimum wage amounts to inflicting upon the plebs people a life of tenuery, of course some people would only be too thrilled of the prospect of spending their life hiding from debt collectors and landlords, in insecure rented apartments, where the threat of eviction for their families and constantly having to say no to their children are not passages out of Dickens but daily life. Smiling constantly and further delighted to see their entrepreneur risk- taking boss pass by their bus stop in his BMW.
Well then why not be totally honest with ourselves, guarantee the success of weak Irish business, and introduce a new industry all in one, by reintroducing slavery? Anyone interested in buying a few boats in Wexford, raiding up and down the British and French coasts for slaves to sell back to the small / weak businesses at home?

djpbarry

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Some people visit Sweeden , Norway and Denmark even though its a more expensive than Ireland.

Scandinavian countries are nowhere near as dependent on tourism as Ireland is.

Niall Keane wrote: »

Advocating the abolition of the minimum wage amounts to inflicting upon the plebs people a life of tenuery, of course some people would only be too thrilled of the prospect of spending their life hiding from debt collectors and landlords, in insecure rented apartments, where the threat of eviction for their families and constantly having to say no to their children are not passages out of Dickens but daily life.

:rolleyes: Yeah because landlords are far more interested in ensnaring Bob Cratchit’s than they are in making money.

Niall Keane

??? This thread isn’t about the nature of landlords; primetime has already exposed what some are capable of. Please don’t do what Irish politicians excel at, grabbing an aside, a hook, to deviate from the main point at hand. Fundamentally I believe that those who advocate lowering the minimum wage aren’t on it. In another time such people would have protested the abolition of slavery. Who will pick our cotton fields now? They are the pariahs of history, although it will take perhaps some further time to pass before they are universally condemned as such.
Many “businesses” in the past required what we now define as slaves. Bread and board alone was provided for. Well below the minimum wage you’re swapping steel chains for economic ones. The last 10 years have seen many businesses sprout up, at a time when they couldn’t fail. Perhaps readjustment requires such untested enterprises to fail. Why should they be supported to string people along in misery? Dropping minimum wage and welfare is exactly that, a poorhouse mentality. Some so called “risk-taking” b@£$%*d is propped up and rewarded for finding a way to extract profit from another person’s misery. If you can’t afford to pay then get off the bus pal!
Is it not as wrong now to profit from a venture that requires “employees” to suffer economic bondage as it was a century ago to profit from an industry that required slaves?

greendom

This society is unequal enough already without lowering the minimum wage to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

Let's not use these difficult times as an excuse to create even more inequality.

djpbarry

Niall Keane wrote: »

Fundamentally I believe that those who advocate lowering the minimum wage aren’t on it.

I haven’t actually advocated a lowering of the minimum wage, but I am open to the idea.

Niall Keane wrote: »

In another time such people would have protested the abolition of slavery. Who will pick our cotton fields now? They are the pariahs of history, although it will take perhaps some further time to pass before they are universally condemned as such.

I’m sorry, what? Anyone who advocates a lowering of the minimum wage might as well be advocating slavery?

murphaph

You're witnessing the typical overreaction I expect when a person suggests we are paid too much in Ireland. Compare our minimum wage to the US states and even to our EU neighbours-then ask why so many firms are shutting up shop.

It's all well and fine for people to be principled but when will these people accept that we are no longer able to compete internationally? When Intel closes down? Guinness?

We cant afford to be principled because we don't have a unique selling point/product/service/niche that can't be done in the UK/Germany/Poland cheaper! We are NOT scandinavia with their high value indigenous industries! We FAILED to develop these industries and now we must work for less money than before.

murphaph

greendom wrote: »

This society is unequal enough already without lowering the minimum wage to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

Let's not use these difficult times as an excuse to create even more inequality.

I suggest you take a trip to India/China or even the United States to see a truly unequal society. Anybody who wanted to make a living over the last decade had the opportunity to do so.

I'm not talking about making the rish richer, I'm talking about keeping business viable!

irish_bob

greendom wrote: »

This society is unequal enough already without lowering the minimum wage to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

Let's not use these difficult times as an excuse to create even more inequality.

this is a great country in which to be ( poor ) , stop talking ****e

eamonnm79

murphaph wrote: »

I just think we need to be realistic about what we can afford to pay ourselves before it's too late.

In that case then lets start at the top and work down or i am not on board the ship. I think part of the reason (subconscoiusly) that so many people think reducing the min wage is a good idea is because their hourly rate is no where near it.
In other words, hit the skangers, sure they are to thick to do anything about it.

eamonnm79

murphaph wrote: »

I suggest you take a trip to India/China or even the United States to see a truly unequal society. Anybody who wanted to make a living over the last decade had the opportunity to do so.

I'm not talking about making the rish richer, I'm talking about keeping business viable!

Oh well then lets not follow their example, Lets run towards Berlin.
We are the 22nd most unequal society at the moment lets try to get away from the top of that list.

We have not done enough on loopholes until it is not worth a wealthy individuals while to hire an accountant. I am actually encouraged by the amount of people standing up for the less well off here. Its refreshing.

Jesus Im starting to hope!:)

jank

If the Minimum wage was to be reduced one first has to look at social welfare and all its perks. If you reduce the minimum wage than people wont work for it as they will get about the same on the dole.

Fix the dole first, then the minimum wage.

Do I agree with the minimum wage, I actually dont know. I am all for regulated and transparent free markets and capitalism but living on the minimum wage is tough! I wouldn't call it living. So its a tough one!

Ill sit on the fence for this one.:pac:

Highsider

iMO the dole needs to be cut in half and then the minimum wage raised to at least 10e per hour. Give people a reason to go to work

murphaph

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Oh well then lets not follow their example, Lets run towards Berlin.
We are the 22nd most unequal society at the moment lets try to get away from the top of that list.

We have not done enough on loopholes until it is not worth a wealthy individuals while to hire an accountant. I am actually encouraged by the amount of people standing up for the less well off here. Its refreshing.

Jesus Im starting to hope!:)

FYI, In germany, even people on low pay generally benefit from an accountant. It is normal for people here to at least have a tax consultant process their end of year tax returns to get as much back as possible. Different tax codes alow different deductibles-the german tax system is complex beyond belief and allows all sorts of strange write offs, so even johnny poor man gets an accountant in germany.

Where does Germany (with no minimum wage legislation) sit on that list Eamon? Better or worse than Ireland? (it's not a loaded question, I really don't know!)

Alcatel

Our minimum wage is too high - and remember, other scales of pay are benchmarked against the minimum wage. If the minimum wage goes up by 20c/x% an hour then somebody on 10 or 15 per hour will expect to see their salary go up as well.

We need to lower the cost to employ, across all sectors and salary levels, because we are priced out of the market. To pay somebody 20k a year to stack shop shelves is completely unrealistic, considering how many businesses that employ these people are low margin, go-to-the-wall for the sake of a few thousand euro in tens of thousands of turnover.

Also, employers pay 10.75% on top of wages in social taxes. So, the cost to employ someone on minimum wage of they're working 40 hours per week is 19,926.14 per year (17,992 wage + 1,934.14 tax).

We got the gig of being the international hub of foreign direct investment by being low-cost. We need that back.

Niall Keane

"We cant afford to be principled"

love this, the "we" never effects the individual speaking! A real hero!

But why not? Bring back slavery as I said, or we could become a nation of whores, everyone on €200 an hour? Sure most of the nation is used to being taken up the ass by now?