Is it time for Ireland to ditch DTT and go all Satellite?

bugfreebob

I am very happy with my Free-to-air DTT and Free-to-air Satellite services. I was never a fan of commercial DTT, and it does not surprise that Boxer has collapsed. However, the government now faces the full cost of rolling out DTT for Public Service Broadcasting. Since the UK channels are only free-to-air on satellite, it is necessary to have combo boxes to receive UK & Irish channels.

Would it not be better for the govt. to ditch DTT rollout altogether (not sure if they are mandated to do terrestrial TV?), and put all Irish channels on Satellite? In this way, only one STB and antenna would be required to receive all UK & Irish Channels Free-to-air.

It would be necessary to overcome the issue of spillover into UK, resulting in increased payments to content owners. This could be avoided by using a dedicated transponder with a spot-beam focused on Ireland alone. (spillover could be confined to NI - this would probably be ignored by content owners). This is a similar approach to BBC on Astra - except their spot-beam is wide enough to cover British Isles.

Wouldn't it be great to be able to receive all major UK & Irish channels free-to-air on a single satellite-only box!

Surely the cost of dedicating a transponder to Irish channels on Astra would be a lot less than the cost of rolling out DTT everywhere and having multiple or combo set-top-boxes?

slegs

bugfreebob wrote: »

It would be necessary to overcome the issue of spillover into UK, resulting in increased payments to content owners. This could be avoided by using a dedicated transponder with a spot-beam focused on Ireland alone.

Would this not involve gazillions of Euro to pay Astra to do something just for Ireland? An in any case a beam as precise as this is hardly even possible and if not possible the spillover problem means rights issues back in the frame. Non runner I think. Sounds like it cost less to roll out DTT. They are not going to pay more to make it convenient for you to receive UK channels.

mjsmyth

To dedicate a transponder and map it so its content is only accessible in Ireland would be nigh on impossible.

The fact that astra 2D is tightly focused on Ireland and the UK is an accident. it was not designed for that purpose. In reality, it is not all that tightly focused. 2D content can be received in many parts of Europe. Reports have menioned France, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, parts of Italy and so on...

Also, there are many many people for whom satellite is not a realistic proposition. Be that because they cannot correctly position a dish to get the correct alignment or perhaps they live in an apartment block where satellite dishes are not allowed by managment companies. How about those who rent and the landlord refuses to provide any tv system...

Whilst I agree it would be great to have the Irish and UK channels FTA in a single box, it is not going to happen any time soon. The closest we will see to a fta one box solution is a combined DTT/Sat receiver.

STB

Beside the fact that the solution put up by the OP does not take into account that the rights holders for the various programmes that RTE and Tv3 buy would not be happy.

Effectively you would RTE 1, 2 TV3 TG4 up as new FTA channels on the Astra platform free to air. The BBC and ITVs would not be happy. The price for the programs bought would also go up as it would no longer be just the Irish terrestrial market, We dont have that type of money. You cannot control the extent of signal coverage seen on the astra platform without encryption. This defeats the whole purpose of fta television.

Also there are many programs and there associated rights that are protected by european legislation on a "terrestrial basis". That would also shoot down sat only.

Finally, not everyone wants a sat dish on their roof, those in multi-unit developments may also be prohibited from doing so.

Rick_

If the 4 Irish channels went to satellite only, they would have to be FTV not FTA. They would hardly pay the cost of FTV cards, and how would they make sure none got into the hands of people in NI or mainland UK.

It'll never happen, DTT is the only option it seems.

The Cush

mjsmyth wrote: »

The fact that astra 2D is tightly focused on Ireland and the UK is an accident. it was not designed for that purpose. In reality, it is not all that tightly focused. 2D content can be received in many parts of Europe. Reports have menioned France, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, parts of Italy and so on...

The Astra 2D being tightly focused on Ireland and the UK was not an accident.

In August 1999, Hughes Space and Communications International, now Boeing Satellite Development Center, was awarded the satellite contract from Société Européenne des Satellites (SES) of Luxembourg. Astra 2D was ordered to deliver digital direct-to-home television to Great Britain and Ireland. The satellite's footprint is centered on the British Isles and is not intended for Europe wide reception with a standard dish.

The rest of the Astra fleet located at 28 deg. East have their beams centered on continental Europe.

Capt'n Midnight

Here's a mad idea,
for the rights costs we could broadcast on satellite As Gaeilge
and then use radio for the audio

of course the timing would be way out but you could fit a delay line to a radio :pac:


Or have a balloon or aerostat thing abut 20Km above Athlone

L1011

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Here's a mad idea,
for the rights costs we could broadcast on satellite As Gaeilge
and then use radio for the audio

of course the timing would be way out but you could fit a delay line to a radio :pac:

I can remember movies on Network 2 with stereo audio on FM3....

bugfreebob

Paddy C wrote: »

If the 4 Irish channels went to satellite only, they would have to be FTV not FTA. They would hardly pay the cost of FTV cards, and how would they make sure none got into the hands of people in NI or mainland UK.

It'll never happen, DTT is the only option it seems.

I acknowledge that there would need to be some effort to minimise spillover if Irish channels went FTA, but I disagree that FTV is the only way. The UK channels went FTA, and used the tight Astra 2D footprint to minimise spillover. It's not a perfect solution, but it probably reduces spillover to <20%. People in ROI & and Western European mainland are able to benefit from spillover, but content providers probably turn a blind eye, because numbers of viewers outside UK are <20%.

Similarly, if Ireland were to agree with Astra for a footprint covering Ireland only, spillover would probably occur in NI, and maybe Wales. It might require some adjustment of a spot beam on the satellite. It would probably be enough to satisfy the content owners.

We would then be back to the situation that prevailed up until the 70s - a single receiver capable of receiving FTA UK & Irish channels - but by satellite, HD and 3D when it comes. This avoids the need for any Irish company to "re-broadcast" UK channels (as happens with Cable & DTT) which is what gives rise to to the copyright issues. Ireland could then do away with the entire terrestrial TV and lousy urban-only NTL/UPC monopoly cable network. The costs saved by getting rid of all this infrastructure would surely pay for the Satellite mods?

slegs

I read online somewhere (don't know how true this is) that Astra 2D was an "off the shelf" satellite, probably ordered by someone else and cancelled, hence the tight beam.

slegs wrote: »

Would this not involve gazillions of Euro to pay Astra to do something just for Ireland? An in any case a beam as precise as this is hardly even possible and if not possible the spillover problem means rights issues back in the frame. Non runner I think.

Ka band would allow a spot beam over Ireland but that's a non-runner as it would require new receivers and LNBs.

Anyway, I'm a perfect example of why this proposal wouldn't work. I can't get satellite due to line of sight issues. So I'd be forced to pay UPC for the Irish channels.

watty

You wouldn't

To be economical a Irish TV by satellite would have to use a non-Sky cam. To be really economic it needs to be on a different satellite. Sadly we are almost the only place with no satellite service.

Even with Ka, to cover ALL of Ireland, the next size up dish then does most of UK.

watty

watty wrote: »

You wouldn't

To be economical a Irish TV by satellite would have to use a non-Sky cam. To be really economic it needs to be on a different satellite. Sadly we are almost the only place with no satellite service.

Even with Ka, to cover ALL of Ireland, the next size up dish then does most of UK.

You haven't seen this place.

I'd be lucky to get any satellite signals here as my whole view to the south is blocked by the Dublin-Sligo railway line.

mjsmyth

The Cush wrote: »

The Astra 2D being tightly focused on Ireland and the UK was not an accident.

In August 1999, Hughes Space and Communications International, now Boeing Satellite Development Center, was awarded the satellite contract from Société Européenne des Satellites (SES) of Luxembourg. Astra 2D was ordered to deliver digital direct-to-home television to Great Britain and Ireland. The satellite's footprint is centered on the British Isles and is not intended for Europe wide reception with a standard dish.

The rest of the Astra fleet located at 28 deg. East have their beams centered on continental Europe.

I would love to be able to find the damn link for this, but I can't.

2D wasn't specifically designed for 28.2. It was, as someone else pointed out, an off the shelf solution that happily worked out. The tight spot beam was there already, it just a happy accident that it worked out the way it did.

mjsmyth

mjsmyth wrote: »

I would love to be able to find the damn link for this, but I can't.

2D wasn't specifically designed for 28.2. It was, as someone else pointed out, an off the shelf solution that happily worked out. The tight spot beam was there already, it just a happy accident that it worked out the way it did.

Here it is:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/376/astra_2d/astra_2d.html

But of course Boeing wouldn't say if the satellite was intended for another purpose before Astra got their mits on it.

Actually... I think the duration confirms it. Astra have often said it takes up to three years to build a new satellite yet there was only a 16 month gap between the ordering and launch of 2D. And a lot of that would have been spent placing it in the launch queue I'm sure.

watty

It's not that tight either.

Iceland to Brittany, Galway to Luxemburg.

Can be received in Northern Italy, Gibralter, most of Germany, parts of Sweden & Spain, most of France, Belgium. Netherlands 65cm

DMC

I would not be a fan of putting all our eggs in one basket; e.g. all satellite.

I would strongly feel that there needs to be an alternative outlet for national distribution, just in case an auld soviet-era dustbin wipes out a dozen birds in the Clarke Belt

Mike 1972

a dedicated transponder with a spot-beam focused on Ireland alone. (spillover could be confined to NI - this would probably be ignored by content owners). This is a similar approach to BBC on Astra - except their spot-beam is wide enough to cover British Isles.

It would require a new satellite launch and therefore wouldnt realistically happen until Astra 2D reaches the end of its working life. Aven then it is highly unlikely SES/Astra would be prepared to go to all that hasstle (and extra expense) for the sake of one (or maybe two) lousy transponders

Effectively you would RTE 1, 2 TV3 TG4 up as new FTA channels on the Astra platform free to air. The BBC and ITVs would not be happy. The price for the programs bought would also go up as it would no longer be just the Irish terrestrial market, We dont have that type of money. You cannot control the extent of signal coverage seen on the astra platform without encryption. This defeats the whole purpose of fta television.

If RTE/TV3/TG4 were FTA but not listed on EPG's outside of Ireland most people (apart from Irish expats and satellite anoraks) would be blissfully unaware. Most Sky viewers in the UK havent know little and care less about the the "add channels"/"other channels" function. Even FTA reciever owners (bar those with Irish connections) would regard it as just another of the hundreds/thousands of channels available. All this oft repeated mantra stuff about having to pay rights for millions of extra viewers is few crock.

Finally, not everyone wants a sat dish on their roof,

I dont get it. Theyre happy enough with a big pole and aerial(s).......

those in multi-unit developments may also be prohibited from doing so.

Apart from the fact that such prohibitions have no standing in EU law Market demand would see them overturned if satellite dishes were the only way to recieve telly. Very few people would be prepared pay money to live somewhere with no TV

To be economical a Irish TV by satellite would have to use a non-Sky cam.

Apart from the fact that $ky boxes have a spare CAM slot Irish TV has been on satellite using a $ky CAM for quite some time now (hence this thread)

On the other hand....................

I can't get satellite due to line of sight issues.

A valid point but only in the (small number of) cases where this is really the case

I would not be a fan of putting all our eggs in one basket; e.g. all satellite.

Another pretty valid point

bugfreebob

DMC wrote: »

I would not be a fan of putting all our eggs in one basket; e.g. all satellite.

I would strongly feel that there needs to be an alternative outlet for national distribution, just in case an auld soviet-era dustbin wipes out a dozen birds in the Clarke Belt

An alternative would be to have a stock of special Sky FTV cards ready to be distributed in a hurry if something happened the main satellite. It would only need to be a short-term measure, until a new satellite was lanched or moved into correct orbit. Hence it would be possible to negotiate a special deal with Sky and/or the content owners. I seem to remember that the satellite owners keep one spare and ready either to be launched or lowered into final orbit, in the event of a fault hitting their main satellite.

We had "all our eggs in one basket" for many years, when ROI terrestrial analogue TV was the only means of receiving TV here. I believe Satellite is much more reliable

watty

Tell that to the people using Optus.

lawhec

As far as I know, no country is completely decommissioning their (analogue) terrestrial network with no digital equivalent being put in place. The main reasons for this is to do with security - It would be unwise for a country (or rather its government) to put its main broadcasting infrastructure into something that it does not have the master on/off switch on, SES Astra and Eutelsat are foreign operators.

Terrestrial also has the built in resilience of being an effective network where the point of failure to take out the complete system would have to be at the network head end before it distributes to the transmitters - this rarely (but can) happens as there is usually a backup that can be kicked in within minutes or even seconds in the event of a failure or security breach provided of course that this backup has been put in place. This can be made even more secure where network have opt-outs either for local/regional programming or even just adverts.

For example the BBC test twice a year on its analogue network in the morning hours a simulated system collapse whereby all feeds to the transmitters are cut except to Crystal Palace in London which is then RBR'd (Rebroadcast relayed) across the UK. I'm not sure if a similar system is in place in the Irish Republic.

As a rough example, back in the 1990's I remember as a teenager BBC1 suddenly went down and came back up around a minute later with a different programme (A Celiene Dion concert) and hitting the teletext button gave "BBC Scotland" - what ended up happening was the feed to Divis from BBC Broadcasting House in Belfast had been lost due to a power failure of some sort. The Divis UHF transmitter (and its respective relays) for BBC1 and BBC2 were out for the count for the rest of the night but Limavady and Brougher were now relaying the BBC Scotland output. I'm not entirely sure how this worked but IIRC a backup generator on Divis Mountain took a RBR feed from Scotland (Black Hill?) and send it out to the feeds to Limavady and Brougher (SHF at the time? I now know they are fibre optic ring).

This is the weakness with satellite television, all viewers are effectively getting the transmission from the one source, if this should fail, then it affects everyone. It may fail also due to an influence outside the control of the country involved, especially if the signal gets jammed from a rogue ground station. For a terrestrial network, the jammer would have to get into the network headend mentioned above - to jam an entire terrestrial network other than this way (and hence lies the reason for strong security measures at this point) is virtually impossible except in a very small country or principality that would only have a handful of transmitters.

Even countries that have a high penetration of satellite television reception like the UK, Isreal, India or even like New Zealand access to a majority of its population, there is no talk of reducing terrestrial coverage at the DSO at least for public/state broadcasters. Terrestrial also has the advantage of allowing portable (if not really mobile) reception and ease of use for the receiver especially in strong signal areas which are usually urban.

Sponge Bob

I am not in favour of all sat for this reason

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20127001.300-space-storm-alert-90-seconds-from-catastrophe.html?full=true

and

http://www.solarstorms.org/SRefStorms.html

http://www.solarstorms.org/NewsPapers/1960e.pdf

We last had a big one in 1960 and last had a massive one in 1859

It would take years to replace the sat constellations .

Meanwhile the original question was supposed to be moot anyway . Where is DIASPORA SAT ??

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tv-channel-for-irish-emigrants-is-put-on-hold-1524159.html

delayed until "later in the year" from 17 March 2009 .

Speak up there Mr Ryan

homelink

One of the main criteria for the DTT here was that we would have a system sovereign to Ireland and not dependent on some foreign broadcaster or broadcast system.
The only option for satellite transmission would be with encryption (FTV for Ireland) and the on-going cost is greater than the dtt option.
So I'm afraid a sat dtt combo receiver will probably be the only available fta option for the foreseeable future.

anotherlostie

I live in an apartment complex and can pick up the digital terrestrial channels with rabbit ears. Under the terms of my lease, I am not permitted to put up a satellite dish. Not everyone has either an aerial or dish on their roof.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.friendsofcrc.ca/Projects/SHARP/sharp.html anyone need a 21Km high transmission tower ?

OK it would give 500-600Km range which is overkill but you want to be out of the weather , and you would need three or four to guarantee one on station at all times.

yes it will need 500Kw to keep up , but how little transmission power could you get away with if you have line of sight ?
problem is that we have a lot of coastal mountains


http://lims.mae.cornell.edu/projects/fuelless.html

watty

A few hundred watts.

On hilltop I can do FM voice from West Limerick to Mt Leinster with 100mW on handheld radio 430MHz to 440MHz band.

A HAP (High Altitude Platform) would give a lot of signal to Wales, Devon, Cornwall etc unless it's in the high GHz with multiple spot beam dishes. Various solutions have been proposed. There is a special altitude (23,000m?) band that is "quiet" from winds. Any "blimp" type device the issue is the wind lower down on the tethers.

Some low power solar powered surveillance aircraft have been tested successfully. There is a 22GHz or similar band allocated for HAP. You'd not use UHF.

Currently using any deployable technology for DTH broadcast rather than surveillance the reliability is far too low and running costs are far too high.

I'd hate to accidentally fly through the power beam of a ground based Laser or Microwave powered HAP.

bugfreebob

anotherlostie wrote: »

I live in an apartment complex and can pick up the digital terrestrial channels with rabbit ears. Under the terms of my lease, I am not permitted to put up a satellite dish. Not everyone has either an aerial or dish on their roof.

I doubt there are too many apartments where residents currently receive only on Rabbits ears. Most apartments are cabled centrally either to Satellite or Cable. The management company for each apartment block could make the decision to make Free-to-air satellite available on the cabling, with a single dish on the roof. The same dish could support Sky channels, for those who want premium content. For those apartments still reliant on Cable, there would be no need to switch over immediately - it could be done on a phased basis as the NTL network is gradually decommissioned. Most residents are likely to demand Satellite over time, for the improved quality, HD etc. The wiring in the apartments could generally be re-used. Within 4 years the entire Terrestrial and Cable TV networks could be shut down - has to be a huge saving.

bugfreebob

bugfreebob wrote: »

Within 4 years the entire Terrestrial and Cable TV networks could be shut down - has to be a huge saving.

Cable networks too? I doubt UPC would be forced to close, the Competition Authority wouldn't be too happy with that. Plus, back to my own situation, I'd have no way of getting TV at all if that happened... I'd either have to move out or see if Irish Rail would let me stick a dish on the other side of their embankment!

watty

Cable is a very good delivery method for TV, second only to Satellite in capacity. It's almost as good as FTTH and can be as good as FTTC for Broadband.

The only problem wit cable is there is not enough of it.

BostonB

watty wrote: »

...
The only problem wit cable is there is not enough of it.

... and the company who look after it...

Sonic_exyouth

It is *possible* to do all sat, but it would require Government regulation.

Effectively, if all FTA box providers were obliged to ask the user where they lived, similar to the Freesat model, the user would select a county, or a UK postcode and get the FTA channels therein.

BBC and ITV would be effectively blocked, as would most other FTA channels, but the RTE signal would also be blocked for UK viewers.

This is not a pie-in-the-sky scenrio, rather it is the liekly outcome of TV networks being picked up by satellite outside of their supposed remit. It's also the single most cost effective method, and easiest to implement way of keeping costs low for RTE, TV3 etc to purchase internation TV shows, like Lost etc.

slegs

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

It is *possible* to do all sat, but it would require Government regulation.

Effectively, if all FTA box providers were obliged to ask the user where they lived, similar to the Freesat model, the user would select a county, or a UK postcode and get the FTA channels therein.

BBC and ITV would be effectively blocked, as would most other FTA channels, but the RTE signal would also be blocked for UK viewers.

This is not a pie-in-the-sky scenrio, rather it is the liekly outcome of TV networks being picked up by satellite outside of their supposed remit. It's also the single most cost effective method, and easiest to implement way of keeping costs low for RTE, TV3 etc to purchase internation TV shows, like Lost etc.

The freesat postcode check has nothing to do with blocking channels. It is so you get your local channels on the EPG at 101,102,103 etc. In fact no freesat channels are blocked and can be received by any satellite receiver. What you describe is not a solution.
As discussed before it would have to be an encryption card based model if it were to be satellite only.
It wont happen, DTT is here to stay. It may just be a slower rollout than before Boxer pulled out.

watty

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

It is *possible* to do all sat, but it would require Government regulation.

Effectively, if all FTA box providers were obliged to ask the user where they lived, similar to the Freesat model, the user would select a county, or a UK postcode and get the FTA channels therein.

BBC and ITV would be effectively blocked, as would most other FTA channels, but the RTE signal would also be blocked for UK viewers.

This is not a pie-in-the-sky scenrio, rather it is the liekly outcome of TV networks being picked up by satellite outside of their supposed remit. It's also the single most cost effective method, and easiest to implement way of keeping costs low for RTE, TV3 etc to purchase internation TV shows, like Lost etc.

It's totally against EU law and International law.

It's Not Irish legislation you need but legislation in EVERY other country. Civil Liberty groups, BBC and many others would be against such a Nazi/Soviet/tyrannical approach to Broadcasting.

The North Korean, Cuban, Iranian, Chinese and similar governments would love such world wide legislation.

Be careful what you wish for.

Fortunately for the Human race such ideas are "pie-in-the-sky" and not likely to be implemented as too many countries would be against it. It only needs ONE country to refuse to ratifiy it and ALL the unapproved satellite boxes will be made there and smuggled in as DVD players.

You do realise you can receive out of region on a Freesat box and even the Sky box is legally obliged to have the "other channels" for FTA?

Sonic_exyouth

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

It is *possible* to do all sat, but it would require Government regulation.
Effectively, if all FTA box providers were obliged to ask the user where they lived, similar to the Freesat model, the user would select a county, or a UK postcode and get the FTA channels therein.
BBC and ITV would be effectively blocked, as would most other FTA channels, but the RTE signal would also be blocked for UK viewers.
This is not a pie-in-the-sky scenrio, rather it is the liekly outcome of TV networks being picked up by satellite outside of their supposed remit. It's also the single most cost effective method, and easiest to implement way of keeping costs low for RTE, TV3 etc to purchase internation TV shows, like Lost etc.

slegs wrote: »

The freesat postcode check has nothing to do with blocking channels. It is so you get your local channels on the EPG at 101,102,103 etc. In fact no freesat channels are blocked and can be received by any satellite receiver. What you describe is not a solution.
As discussed before it would have to be an encryption card based model if it were to be satellite only.
It wont happen, DTT is here to stay. It may just be a slower rollout than before Boxer pulled out.

The Freesat model does have the capacity to prevent the viewing of any channel.

I know, right now, it does not; but it has the capacity to allow relative network Jurisdiction, which is the point I am making, and is, wheter you want to believe it or not, the future.

Sonic_exyouth

watty wrote: »

It's totally against EU law and International law.

It's Not Irish legislation you need but legislation in EVERY other country. Civil Liberty groups, BBC and many others would be against such a Nazi/Soviet/tyrannical approach to Broadcasting.

The North Korean, Cuban, Iranian, Chinese and similar governments would love such world wide legislation.

Be careful what you wish for.

Fortunately for the Human race such ideas are "pie-in-the-sky" and not likely to be implemented as too many countries would be against it. It only needs ONE country to refuse to ratifiy it and ALL the unapproved satellite boxes will be made there and smuggled in as DVD players.

You do realise you can receive out of region on a Freesat box and even the Sky box is legally obliged to have the "other channels" for FTA?

It's not "against International law", insomuch as there is no international law preventing it.

This has been the method brought up at EU level to compensate for Relative juristiction of TV networks, in particular broadcasts by State funded networks.

I am perplexed as to what is so Evil about it?

mjsmyth

Under EU law, a satellite receiver must be able to receive all FTA channels....

How do you propose to block out BBC, ITV and so on, if by EU law, the satellite receiver must have the ability to receive these channels as they are FTA??

With regards to the freesat box being able to able to prevent the viewing of any channel, would you care to expand on this and how freesat could blatantly flout EU law? I am interested as no one else in the UK satellite forums has ever said as much.

watty

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

The Freesat model does have the capacity to prevent the viewing of any channel.

I know, right now, it does not; but it has the capacity to allow relative network Jurisdiction, which is the point I am making, and is, wheter you want to believe it or not, the future.

It hasn't and it would contrary to EU law and international practice.

The BBC also would oppose it. It might be the future in North Korea. But not even the UK under Nu Labour would sink so low. It would most of all be the UK, not Ireland that would have to implement it.

It's fantasy.

It's only happened Twice I know of. The Nazi regime didn't want people listening to BBC, so they produced a radio with no tuning. It could only be used to listen to one station. Premiere a German PayTV channel produced a satellite receiver that could only receive their channels. It was withdrawn as it was illegal.

If you can't see that such a receiver is evil please do some research on Media & Human Rights.

bugfreebob

watty wrote: »

It hasn't and it would contrary to EU law and international practice.

The BBC also would oppose it. It might be the future in North Korea. But not even the UK under Nu Labour would sink so low. It would most of all be the UK, not Ireland that would have to implement it.

It's fantasy.

Interesting discussion on the option of blocking channels in receiver. The consensus seems to be that this won't work - so back to my original suggestion that a spot-beam focused on Ireland would be the best way to minimise spillover outside of ROI market - similar approach to Astra Freesat within UK.

What I am not sure about is whether this would require some remote adjustment on an existing satellite, or launch of a new customised satellite? Perhaps someone knows for definite? No guesswork, please!

I appreciate that this solution will not suit houses that have no line of sight - but no solution is perfect, and the number of houses with no line of sight must be tiny. In my experience, most dish installers are just lazy (or paid too badly by Sky) and don't want to do difficult installs if the obvious locations are blocked.

bugfreebob

bugfreebob wrote: »

What I am not sure about is whether this would require some remote adjustment on an existing satellite, or launch of a new customised satellite? Perhaps someone knows for definite? No guesswork, please!

It would require a new satellite. Spot beams can be steered but I don't think it would be possible to get a Ku band spot beam down to such a small size. You'd really need Ka band but as watty said earlier, in the UK you could just use a bigger dish to get round it.

The only way I could see this working would be as an FTV solution, maybe encrypt the channels and provide a service similar to the former Solus cards where you would phone them and quote your TV licence number to be posted a card. There would of course be abuse of the system but in the main it would keep rights holders happy.

Capt'n Midnight

wasn't there something about reusing channels on another transponder so that France could not get the Astra 2D signal because of interference rather than then because there was no signal ?
If so then would be very difficult to get a spot beam just for us and what would we have as plan-B

The current beam spillover covers Iceland as well
http://www.lyngsat-maps.com/maps/astra2d.html

And you'd need a frequency not already in use. Using a different orbital position would just make things messy.
http://www.lyngsat.com/28east.html

watty

A FTV card (Solus) system is the only solution. But with installed base of Skyboxes it needs to use Sky card. With lack of EU regulation and difficulting in regulation of a Sat provider at all, Sky charges whatever they like. It should cost about €25 a year to customer. The £21 UK price was subsidized as BBC, C4, Five etc paid Sky Millions per year. It actually costs Sky only really the price of running a support call centre. But they want too much and won't reduce the cost.

With the present arrangement, RTE et al get the encryption for free, though Sky ought to be paying them as the content is part of Sky's PayTV packs. However it means that for RTE they get on Satellite for very little cost. Paying for carriage, paying for SkyEPG and paying for Encryption would be 2M + 20M + 45M pa PER CHANNEL. At the minute they don't pay any of that, just uplink costs.

musa

watty wrote: »

A FTV card (Solus) system is the only solution. But with installed base of Skyboxes it needs to use Sky card. With lack of EU regulation and difficulting in regulation of a Sat provider at all, Sky charges whatever they like. It should cost about €25 a year to customer. The £21 UK price was subsidized as BBC, C4, Five etc paid Sky Millions per year. It actually costs Sky only really the price of running a support call centre. But they want too much and won't reduce the cost.

With the present arrangement, RTE et al get the encryption for free, though Sky ought to be paying them as the content is part of Sky's PayTV packs. However it means that for RTE they get on Satellite for very little cost. Paying for carriage, paying for SkyEPG and paying for Encryption would be 2M + 20M + 45M pa PER CHANNEL. At the minute they don't pay any of that, just uplink costs.

Hope I am not upsetting folk by crossing threads,but it was mentioned that Sky are oblidged to allow 50 other channels to be received on their boxs,
I had the Sky HD box installed yesterday and new download.
When I attempted to look for ITV HD,(11427 H,2/3 25.5) the box would not permit me to access the symbol rate of 25.5,(only 22 and 27.5),so no ITV HD.

mrdtv

musa wrote: »

Hope I am not upsetting folk by crossing threads,but it was mentioned that Sky are oblidged to allow 50 other channels to be received on their boxs,
I had the Sky HD box installed yesterday and new download.
When I attempted to look for ITV HD,(11427 H,2/3 25.5) the box would not permit me to access the symbol rate of 25.5,(only 22 and 27.5),so no ITV HD.

CLAPTRAP. I had the new Sky HD box S/W download overnight. The correct parameters are: 11.427H, SR:27.5, FEC: 2/3, save channellnumber 10510 in the guide. Displays ITV HD card perfectly by Thomson HD box using other channels. You don't know what you are talking about and should do your homework before posting! First ITVHD broadcast: 2100 tomorrow night, Boy and Girl. Sigh.

BigMoose

mrdtv wrote:

First ITVHD broadcast: 2100 tomorrow night,

Eh? ITV HD has been broadcasting for months! Homework, facts, posting? What?

mrdtv

BigMoose wrote: »

Eh? ITV HD has been broadcasting for months! Homework, facts, posting? What?

Exactly. First ITV broadcast in the NEXT 24 hours!. There's no blocking despite the cnspiracy theory advocated earlier: it was not tunable in the earlier Sky HD EPG but not now. FTA HD DVB-S1/S2 boxes with the right s/w had it for months. Now Sky have introduced the perfect Trojan Horse to undermine Freesat!

Sonic_exyouth

mjsmyth wrote: »

Under EU law, a satellite receiver must be able to receive all FTA channels....

How do you propose to block out BBC, ITV and so on, if by EU law, the satellite receiver must have the ability to receive these channels as they are FTA??

With regards to the freesat box being able to able to prevent the viewing of any channel, would you care to expand on this and how freesat could blatantly flout EU law? I am interested as no one else in the UK satellite forums has ever said as much.

As I've previously stated, its the EU.. well the European Parliament who have put forward the suggestion. And it is extraordinarily simple.

It's not complicated, it's very very easy.

Sonic_exyouth

watty wrote: »

It hasn't and it would contrary to EU law and international practice.

The BBC also would oppose it. It might be the future in North Korea. But not even the UK under Nu Labour would sink so low. It would most of all be the UK, not Ireland that would have to implement it.

It's fantasy.

It's only happened Twice I know of. The Nazi regime didn't want people listening to BBC, so they produced a radio with no tuning. It could only be used to listen to one station. Premiere a German PayTV channel produced a satellite receiver that could only receive their channels. It was withdrawn as it was illegal.

If you can't see that such a receiver is evil please do some research on Media & Human Rights.

Elaborate on what "international" law it is against?

In iraq, they simply banned Satellite Dishes. Why wouldn't other despotic regimes do likewise if they so wished?

Why would the BBC object to non-license payers being prevented from viewing content that license payers paid for?

There is nothing Evil about this, and it's probably going to happen.

watty

There are no despotic regimes in EU and I don't understand why you want the UK to be like Iraq.

The licence fee in Ireland is a Tax on *ANY* TV viewing from anywhere, received / viewed in Ireland only.

The licence fee in UK is a Tax on TV viewing applicable if you watch ANY UK transmission, ever, in the UK only The BBC refuses to accept licence fee contributions from UK citizens in Spain or Gibraltar watching BBC and/or ITV via Satellite.

In neither case has the reception of any transmission from outside of the state any relevance, nor if the UK or Irish transmission is received outside the originating state.

The EU supports "television without frontiers" / "Television Sans Frontiers"

.. but about a lex specialis exclusively applicable to those services which are of particular importance for democracy and for freedom of information and opinion ..

Which parts of "Evil", "Democracy", "Freedom" don't you understand.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=g8HJHW2AuFIC&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=freedom+of+reception+international&source=bl&ots=vvuP10J-qv&sig=tDeboBqErbLQe-qu8KRdp7AIE5s&hl=en&ei=jdP5Sb2vD6WsjAeorOmiAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2
In 1948 the United Nations Conference on Freedom of Information adopted a Resolution on Broadcasting.
Article 1 Includes not impeding reception of Broadcasts.
also

Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) adopted in 1948 states:

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Also

Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) , which was adopted by the UN in 1966, uses the same language:

1. Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference.

2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice.

3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:

(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;

(b) For the protection of national security or of public order (ordre public), or of public health or morals.

Solving Rights-holders / Copyright issues isn't a permitted reason to interfere with "Free to Air" reception equipment. You can encrypt at source, but you can't interfere at reception.

Note under part 3 you can only censor your OWN source, not interfere with transmission from (unless that transmission is inciting to violence, war or similar acts) or reception in another country.

Also

The right of expression may not be restricted by indirect methods or means, such as the abuse of government or private controls over newsprint, radio broadcasting frequencies, or equipment used in the dissemination of information, or by any other means tending to impede the communication and circulation of ideas and opinions.

What you propose for Satellite receivers is totally incompatible with an Open Society.

Next you will propose that the Government, Church, Imman or somesuch will decide what is in the programs. That is where your plan leads.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

wasn't there something about reusing channels on another transponder so that France could not get the Astra 2D signal because of interference rather than then because there was no signal ?
If so then would be very difficult to get a spot beam just for us and what would we have as plan-B

Astra 1K (which failed to launch successfully) was planned to use a spot beam over Spain and another over central Europe. Haven't heard anything about another spot at 28.2.

watty

It would have been for 43cm dishes in Spain.
Which means a 80cm would likely have worked here.

I did get the Central Europe 28.5E beam here on my 110cm dish, but not the 4W Central Europe beam. Not all spot beams are equal.

I've worked with microwave & dish systems for many years as a Communications Engineer. You can have a spot beam that can be received in Athlone, but not UK. Then it will NOT work in Dublin well either.

Leaving out the impossibility of the N.I. border for Spot Beams, any pan- ALL of Ireland coverage with a 45cm dish will be easily received in Wales/Cornwall with 65cm and most of the rest of England on 80cm, probably 70cm north Spain and Iceland. 90cm Gibraltar and 110cmm France/Netherlands. But it depends on which orbital slot is used.

The satellite is 22,000 miles approx above equator, so a perfect spot is only round on the equator below satellite. Move East or West its more ellipse. Move northward to Ireland and it's more elliptical too.

If it was at 28.2E (otherwise a a problem as people are only allowed / only want one dish), then it's from the South East, so if all of Ireland then had "hot beam", maybe even a 70cm or 65cm dish would work in SE England. Make beam smaller so UK can't receive it (assuming larger dish at satellite) then West Cork/ Kerry gets poor signal and so does Waterford / Wexford / Dublin. Iceland probably STILL get it, unless you want France to get it instead and a weaker signal in Donegal.

If you have 100% perfect Irish coverage, then Neighbours can get it easily.

This was the planned footprint, I saved it from Astra's website before the failure, it was removed very quickly afterwards. But we all know the official 2D footprint is a bit too lenient so this probably was too.

watty

Look at how much of France gets Mini-Dish coverage!

Ireland & UK is in Fresnel zone there, so would vary between 90cm and 2m.