lead vocal recording

i57dwun4yb1pt8

recording vocals tips

ok , its time to start putting proper vocals down on my home studio tracks
and im wondering if you could advise where to avoid pit falls .

the set up is

room , = totally dead

mics - oktava 319 LDC , sm58 , sm57 as choices ( with pop blocker on stand . )

pre amp - adesigns pacifica

I have an external really nice compressor , but the interface card ( tc studio konnekt 48 )
has very good insert plugin compressor i can use on the signal path if need be - and which can be tracked
it also has a reverb send that dosent get tracked on the way in


so, i can sing , but im not great technically , I have a loud voice and have probelms overloading the mic
( i sing into the pop which is 6 inches from the mic - and the mic is slighlty above my mouth line )

i really need to figure out how to get an even sound without months of vocal training .

is this possible ?

its mainly rock , so no huge ranges of dynamics apart from lifting in the chorus .

Seziertisch

Try using both compressors, both with just a couple of DBs of compression in series. Although some sort of outboard eq/filtering (used either before, after or in a sidechain) might be required to get the compressors to behave the way you want them to.

Also, I have never used a RNC or the TC software comp you are talking about so I don't know how well they might work either individually or in tandem for what you are trying to do.

teamdresch

DaDumTish wrote: »

I have a loud voice and have probelms overloading the mic

I take it this is the techy question you want answered or discussed..

When you say "overloading the mic" do you mean the preamp, converter, what?
I'd be hesitant to use a compressor while tracking, as your focus should be on performing the vocal and not engineering it.

Seziertisch

teamdresch wrote: »

I take it this is the techy question you want answered or discussed..

When you say "overloading the mic" do you mean the preamp, converter, what?
I'd be hesitant to use a compressor while tracking, as your focus should be on performing the vocal and not engineering it.

It might be an idea to get someone in to engineer it.

DamagedTrax

if you're overloading the octava then use the 57. i had the same problem last week with a male vocalist, the condensor was overloading and the signal was getting limited so i swapped to a 57 and everything was gravy.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

ok, thanks for the tips .

maybe i should ask the question another way,
if you are stuck with someone who can sing , but is not an expert in working the mic , how do you compensate for possible voulme increases or decreses .?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

im also not overloading the oktava per se , im just not even in my approach to the vocal , i may get to loud or too soft , and dont have time to go through months of vocal training .

fitz

Not something there's much way of working around without loads of compression.
If you don't have control over your voice, even with compression to compensate, it's still not gonna sound even. Make do now, but it's a good idea to get some vocal lessons anyway.

ZV Yoda

I have the same problem when tracking my own vox & I don’t have a particularly strong/powerful voice. Ideal scenario is that you control the source volume (i.e. your voice itself). It's like playing drums - if your playing volume is all over the place, or you too loud in certain parts, then getting the recorded volume consistent will be a problem.

I use a very non-technical solution to get around the volume thing. I track in such a way that I can see the input level indicator on my DAW while I'm singing. It becomes obvious very quickly where I need to control my vox/back away from the mic. It’s trial & error. After a few takes, I rely less on the screen, cos I already know where to back off. I can then focus a bit more on the performance & less on the volume.

It’s no substitute for training my voice, but sure that’s life!

On mics, the SM57 is the Swiss Army knife of microphones… I take one of my 57s off my snare, then use it for vox, then stick on the guitar amp/acoustic too. You already have a good selection there, so try them all (or a mixed combination) & see what works best for your voice.

Neurojazz

If your takes are all over the place volume-wise, then send them here and i'll process them to balance them out

I use a fair few tools to work around those issues - both upward and downward compression... Wave L3-16 is another great tool for lifting the quieter passages up in the mix - then it can also compress downwards etc...

teamdresch

Assuming we are literally only concerned with volume (to try and keep this somewhat short) you have a few options.

1. Set the mic preamp level so that the loudest passage does not clip the AD converter.
Compensate for (normal, human) differences in level through a combination of automation and dynamic processing.

2. Learn to move closer to the mic on quiet 'intimate' parts and back a few inches further away when you're belting it out. Trust me, it won't take long to get the hang of.

ogy

yeh +1 for automation and compression. especially if the texture of the song changes from section to section

Max Cohen

if your recording with a daw a virtual(?) compresser would do just fine.
just wack up the input and the threshold

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

ok, thanks for the tips .

maybe i should ask the question another way,
if you are stuck with someone who can sing , but is not an expert in working the mic , how do you compensate for possible voulme increases or decreses .?

'Working the mic' me hole ..... who comes up with this shyt? Old Engineering Wives Tales if you ask me.

The biggest issue I ever see is micing the singer too closely.

If the singer is 2 inches away from the mic and moves 2 inches away they've doubled the distance they are from the mic = big volume and tone differences.

Two things come into play -

the proximity effect (taking it we're using a cardioid) i.e. the singer moving in and out will act like a bass boost and cut thereby increasing the sonic change.

The 6 db rule - 6dB rule says that double increment in distance causes increase of signal attenuation by 6dB. Obviously that only applies directly to an anechoic chamber but is important in the solution of the problem.


Solution -

Move the singer 8 to 12 inches away from the mic ( or maybe more). This will work in 90% of the time. (The Barry White Love Growl will, however, involve the proximity effect)

So a 2 or 3 inch head movement will reduce the volume difference as it's now 1/6th (or 1/4) the total distance and the proximity effect is taken out of the equation quite significantly.

Another upside is the likelihood of the preamp in the mic being overloaded is reduced so it's a win win win situation.

Lastly if the singer inclined to be a mic chewer you have 2 options - give them a dummy mic to sing into or two , my favourite, turn the phucker up in his/her cans so they stay away from the mic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_effect_(audio)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_square_law
(the acoustics bit is down a bit)

p.s. I don't think I read so much bollox in a thread for a long while.

studiorat

+1 for the Brewer pov.

Start at about a cocks length from the mic and take it from there. If the room is as dead as you say 12" from the mic shouldn't be a problem.

dav nagle

studiorat wrote: »

+1 for the Brewer pov.

Start at about a cocks length from the mic and take it from there. If the room is as dead as you say 12" from the mic shouldn't be a problem.

A hard cock or a soft cock??

i57dwun4yb1pt8

ok

14 inches it is then

Aridstarling

I call bull****!:P

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

A hard cock or a soft cock??

Soft .... 14 so ...

dav nagle

Aridstarling wrote: »

I call bull****!:P

Are you saying a bulls cock? But don't they have much bigger cocks than humans? The microphone would never pick your voice up at that length.

madtheory

I think there's too much talk about compression. So, you're recording solo. Do this:
Don't compress while tracking. Set the peak level at -18dBFS. That way you'll never hit clipping. That way you can just track the damn vocal and not worry about levels. Ride the vocal level in the mix later, add compression to taste. The combination of the two is the key to a great mix. If you had an engineer, they would ride the fader while tracking. It's a skill. They'd probably also use a compressor for a few dB, because that's historically the sound we like for a rock vocal.

P.S. doubling your distance from the mic gives 10dB of attenuation of loudness, which equates to a voltage decrease of 6dB. Not that this helps at all

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

I
P.S. doubling your distance from the mic gives 10dB of attenuation of loudness, which equates to a voltage decrease of 6dB. Not that this helps at all

Is it 10 dB? Worse again.

henessjon

theres also comping a vocal take

use the technolgy to your advantage get stuck in practice makes perfect

i57dwun4yb1pt8

thanks , im making progress with it , trying to sing better ( i e get it right at source , as is always best )
sounds pretty good so far .

ive tried the audix 15 - nice , pretty bright
sm58 - like the 15 , a bit less focussed , a tad cloudy
oktava - touch darker but more natural and detailed then the others.- fuller.


no compression going in , just raw


what does comping mean by the way ?

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

thanks , im making progress with it , trying to sing better ( i e get it right at source , as is always best )
sounds pretty good so far .

ive tried the audix 15 - nice , pretty bright
sm58 - like the 15 , a bit less focussed , a tad cloudy
oktava - touch darker but more natural and detailed then the others.- fuller.


no compression going in , just raw


what does comping mean by the way ?

Compiling .... putting bits from different takes together.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

ah ok, thanks , I should have googled !

paul , check PM

fitz

PaulBrewer wrote: »

'Working the mic' me hole ..... who comes up with this shyt? Old Engineering Wives Tales if you ask me.

Sean Beavan would seem to disagree with you Paul:

Both Trent and Manson do a lot of whispering as part of their vocal styles. It must be really hard to make the cut.
Yeah. Normally with Trent it¹s not as premeditated as Manson. Manson¹s like an actor, he¹ll think of term of what voice he should use for different parts of the songs. He¹ll experiment with the or four voices for each part. So he¹ll say "On this part I ¹m going to be really breathy and quiet," and I ¹ll just adjust the EQ or the compression. Mainly the compression. It¹s either going to be an 1176 or an LA2A. For me, the LA2A is really great for the breathy vocals. It gets all the cool nuances in of his throat. And, for Trent, the chain is always Neve 1073[mic pre] and almost always a LA2A. "Hurt" was all done like that, in single takes. He¹s just really good at working the mic - especially a¹58. He sang all of "Piggy" curled up underneath the consol with a ¹58 into a 1073 through a LA2A. When he screamed, he pulled back; and when he was whispering he got exactly in the right kind of proximity because he listens for the tones as he¹s doing it. Manson¹s that way, too. So you have to have a headphone mix where they can hear. That¹s a big deal. It has to happen instantly or else they¹re mad.

from here: http://www.nineinchnails.net/news/articles/sean_beavan.html

After getting a non-clipped track, the most important thing when tracking vocals, imo, is what the vocalist is hearing as they're tracking, and how that effects how they perform. I don't think you can rule out "working the mic" - ie. pulling back, pushing forward momentarily as a valid technique for capturing a vocal which is dynamic in it's level.

Regardless, I still believe it's a vocal control issue, not an engineering one.
Singing lessons ftw.


ps. doesn't "comp" come from "composite", or have I been wrong all this time?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

thanks again lads .

by the way , comping is a term in jazz for "complimenting "

ie , drummers "comp" the paino player brass player ,etc on snare drum ,
following the accents and notes and subtly back them up .


i assumed you meant comping a vocal was the enginneer wroking the fader
as it cut,

now i get it !

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

Sean Beavan would seem to disagree with you Paul:





ps. doesn't "comp" come from "composite", or have I been wrong all this time?

I'm sure there are many who disagree - my experience is different.

fitz

As is mine, and imo "working the mic" is a perfectly valid technique for a vocalist to use when recording, not an old engineers wives tale.

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

thanks again lads .

by the way , comping is a term in jazz for "complimenting "

!

Different Comping!

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

As is mine, and imo "working the mic" is a perfectly valid technique for a vocalist to use when recording, not an old engineers wives tale.

My point was that looking at 'working the mic' was worrying about the deckchairs on the deck of the Titanic.

Let's keep the ship afloat first !

fitz

Not really Paul, you pretty much wrote off working the mic as a technique.
I'm not saying you're wrong about moving back an extra couple of inches helping with the results by lessening the impact of proximity effect etc...but at that doesn't mean that someone's talking "bollox" for referring to working the mic.

madtheory

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Is it 10 dB? Worse again.

It's 10dB Volts, but 6dBSPL. In both cases, it represents a factor of 2.

The thing with working the mic is, lots of singers think they can do it, but they're deluded. They have all the moves, but they're not listening. So I would share Paul's cynicism on the issue... red rag to a bull like.

But it's super to work with someone who uses proximity effect and attenuation musically. It's rare!! Most of the time, just stick a compressor/ limiter on and tell them to relax, stop bobbing about, or record with a handheld mic

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

Not really Paul, you pretty much wrote off working the mic as a technique.
I'm not saying you're wrong about moving back an extra couple of inches helping with the results by lessening the impact of proximity effect etc...but at that doesn't mean that someone's talking "bollox" for referring to working the mic.

The 'bollox' I refer to in this thread is the recording the problems then fixing them approach.

My suggestion was to avoid the problem in the first place, I feel a much more sensible solution .

With regard to the 'working the mic' fallacy in all my years working with singers of all styles and standards from, brutal to brilliant, this idea has never come up or been demonstrated to me.

As always I'm prepared to back up my statements with a demonstration.

You're a singer Fitz aren't you? Where are you based?

Care to hook up in Clara or the new place in Nenagh at some stage and I'll demonstrate what I'm on about and you can show me 'working the mic' ?

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

It's 10dB Volts, but 6dBSPL. In both cases, it represents a factor of 2.

The thing with working the mic is, lots of singers think they can do it, but they're deluded. They have all the moves, but they're not listening. So I would share Paul's cynicism on the issue...

Ah, hence it's '6dB Rule' name which I first heard as a boy.... not long after the first 6dBs were invented ...

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i want to clarify , that when i said " work the mic " i meant as in

1/ move back or to the side when going louder
2/ move in when going quieter

singers do it all the time live , cant see why studio would be different.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

and i want to add one more thing ,

is it just me or is recording your own vocal a strange experience ?

its feels so much different than recording an instrument part.

its , like , you the mic , and some weird feeling of being outside yourself .
( and i dont mean cos of the cans )

dav nagle

Hey DaDumtish Since you posted this thread I am confused..

DaDumTish wrote: »

I have a loud voice and have probelms overloading the mic

Surely you have the Mic gain way too loud? Why do this? Why can't you bring everything way down?

DaDumTish wrote: »

i really need to figure out how to get an even sound without months of vocal training is this possible ?
its mainly rock , so no huge ranges of dynamics apart from lifting in the chorus.

Why not record the verse with one level and the chorus with another?

Then comp?

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

i want to clarify , that when i said " work the mic " i meant as in

1/ move back or to the side when going louder
2/ move in when going quieter

That's what I mean too ...

fitz

PaulBrewer wrote: »

The 'bollox' I refer to in this thread is the recording the problems then fixing them approach.

If that's what you're saying, then say that in the first place.

My suggestion was to avoid the problem in the first place, I feel a much more sensible solution .

Agreed. That's why I suggested biting the bullet with singing lessons...

With regard to the 'working the mic' fallacy in all my years working with singers of all styles and standards from, brutal to brilliant, this idea has never come up or been demonstrated to me.

You've never once seen a singer pull back an inch or two on a certain word cause they know they're gonna get a shade louder on that word, or come right in close cause they specifically want the proximity effect on part of a line? I find that surprising tbh.

As always I'm prepared to back up my statements with a demonstration.

You're a singer Fitz aren't you? Where are you based?

Care to hook up in Clara or the new place in Nenagh at some stage and I'll demonstrate what I'm on about and you can show me 'working the mic' ?

I understand what you're on about, and as I said, I didn't disagree with it as a valid approach. I just disagree with what you're saying about working the mic. Neither am I trying to overstate the importance of working the mic if you're standing the right distance away. But to say that it's not a valid technique is just daft. What about singers who like to perform with mic in hand, such as the examples in the article I linked to?

I'm based in North Kildare Paul, and my time outside work is precious and limited enough as it is. I'm not gonna waste a day going to and from a studio to show you that on a given vocal line, momentarily pulling back or moving in is a perfectly valid technique for achieving an even vocal take, nor should I have to in order for my opinion and experience to somehow be validated.

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

If that's what you're saying, then say that in the first place.



Agreed. That's why I suggested biting the bullet with singing lessons...



You've never once seen a singer pull back an inch or two on a certain word cause they know they're gonna get a shade louder on that word, or come right in close cause they specifically want the proximity effect on part of a line? I find that surprising tbh.



I understand what you're on about, and as I said, I didn't disagree with it as a valid approach. I just disagree with what you're saying about working the mic. Neither am I trying to overstate the importance of working the mic if you're standing the right distance away. But to say that it's not a valid technique is just daft. What about singers who like to perform with mic in hand, such as the examples in the article I linked to?

I'm based in North Kildare Paul, and my time outside work is precious and limited enough as it is. I'm not gonna waste a day going to and from a studio to show you that on a given vocal line, momentarily pulling back or moving in is a perfectly valid technique for achieving an even vocal take, nor should I have to in order for my opinion and experience to somehow be validated.

Fair enough - the offer is there at any stage.

madtheory

DaDumTish wrote: »

and i want to add one more thing ,

is it just me or is recording your own vocal a strange experience ?
)

It takes a bit of getting used to

Re- "worknig the mic" I've seen plenty of singers moving the mic around, but getting it wrong. Lots of singers tend to pull away from the mic at the end of the line, and this combined with poor phrasing (running out of breath) just means you don't hear the last syllable or word. Maybe twice I've worked with a singer who actually knew what he was doing.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

it may be the cause of world war three , but il learning alot here :pac::D


DAV - im not overloading the mic or pre , per se , I guess im just being an idiot and assuming there is some magical combo of compression and engineering technique needed to compensate for , or even always required to record singers.

but the conscensus seems to be , just get it right at source , and use some awareness of the mic to get a good take .

and yes I may do chorus and verse seperate , but i am a big fan linear takes. ( drummer mentality )

i am also having problems setting up cubase to drop me in in certain spots.

dav nagle

DaDumTish wrote: »

it may be the cause of world war three , but il learning alot here :pac::D


DAV - im not overloading the mic or pre , per se , I guess im just being an idiot and assuming there is some magical combo of compression and engineering technique needed to compensate for , or even always required to record singers.

but the conscensus seems to be , just get it right at source , and use some awareness of the mic to get a good take .

and yes I may do chorus and verse seperate , but i am a big fan linear takes. ( drummer mentality )

i am also having problems setting up cubase to drop me in in certain spots.

Cool, well when I was recording on my Focusrite Octopre I would get overloaded signal when I pushed it too hard. I went out and got a high quality Mic pre and that was the end of that issue.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

* SIGH *

anyone know any good singing teachers in dublin city only

( not michelle in temple bar , need someone more advanced )

redskyband2008

Hey there.

Have you though about recording your vocals in a studio?

Check out Scream Studios, located in Terenure, Dublin 6W
My rates are very low..

www.myspace.com/screamstudiosdublin

Thanks for your time,

Scott Halliday

PaulBrewer

redskyband2008 wrote: »

Hey there.

Have you though about recording your vocals in a studio?

Check out Scream Studios, located in Terenure, Dublin 6W
My rates are very low..

www.myspace.com/screamstudiosdublin

Thanks for your time,

Scott Halliday

Good Work Scott!

i57dwun4yb1pt8

no, ive spent a fortune building my own - and want to do it myself .

i also have a contact in a " go to " studio already if I want a pro job done .

but thanks for the thought .- you seem to have done a good job on yours.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i also note frobie locked and banned this poster on another thread, but hes escaped it here under brewies scrutiny - which is it lads ? need some mod consistency - or boards mod rep isnt going to get any better.

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

i also note frobie locked and banned

Banned?