N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [open to traffic]

Leatra

My impression was that Lane 3 in your image (which is now hatch-marked and very poorly blocked off, with the signage appearing abruptly in front of you when you crest a hill) was originally put in to give volume priority to N25W traffic over traffic leaving Little Island, by ensuring that a full lane from the N25 was able to continue beyond the merge with local traffic. With two zipper merges working properly, one after another, you'd ideally get a two to one ratio of N25W to LI and so minimise overflow back onto the mainline by ensuring as many cars as possible got onto the slip.

The fact that the hatching was only added a good bit after the full opening suggests to me that they saw the typical inability of Irish drivers to use two lanes efficiently (every time I take it, I see multiple cars on N25W crossing the gore between exit lane 1 and exit lane 2), felt it was causing trouble and ultimately just took away our crayons. I think we'd be better off if it had been kept fully open, especially when it comes time to push Little Island traffic toward alternative modes, as intra-urban traffic is now being given nearly even priority with (theoretically) inter-urban traffic.

Kermit.de.frog

The tunnel should be widened (and it should have been built properly in the first place but this is Ireland). What will also be needed is new flyovers at the Dunkettle interchange from the widened tunnel on to the N25 in both directions and a rebuild of the shambolic N8 mainline through the junction.

We shouldn't accept "it'll do" because this is exactly the outcome that happens. The "new" Dunkettle interchange is redundant already because of small peripheral thinking.

veryangryman

Oh good. Kermit has a new and realistic slant on things

Dude you have yet another poster hiding you now. Enjoy

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122393949#Comment_122393949

Yes but first we need an underground rail system with at least 50 lines, connecting all the suburbs. Then we need cycleways connecting every individual house in the city. We'll get around to widening the tunnel out to 16 lanes then.

chalkitdown1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122372279#Comment_122372279

It's quite clear that about 50% of the traffic issues in the city are due to 'school runs'. It's absolutely mad that there isn't a proper universal school bus scheme in the city. The amount of private traffic they would take off the roads would be quite substantial.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122394767#Comment_122394767

Most school runs are a diversion of an existing parental commute, and most are at the "home" end of that commute. The ones you notice, parents dropping children at urban secondary schools, should be better handled, but they have no real impact on pinch-points further back on the journey: that person would be driving that car through there anyway.

The big drop in traffic at this time of year is due to people taking summer holidays, something that a large share of commuters cannot do while their children are in school. And as this isn't the 1950s, one family holiday often takes two cars off the road...

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395009#Comment_122395009

Yep drop in multi-tripping and people taking time off are the big differences.

niloc1951

I've just returned after four months driving in Spain, Portugal and France. As I headed eastbound on the N40 having come from Ringaskiddy Ferry Port the advance overhead signs for the M8 certainly looked unique and unlike what I had got used to on my travels. Had I not know better from local knowledge I would certainly have been tempted to think I could access the M8 from either lane of the N40.

I did notice some lane information painted on the road before the JLT but the speed and proximity of other vehicles prevented me from actually reading the information before I passed over it.

The first indication that the only lane from which to safely access the M8 is lane 2 of the N40 was the signs at the M8 slip itself.

lawrencesummers

I use the tunnel most days albeit not at peak time for the most part but i completely fail to see the benefit that has been brought about by such a massive investment of money, its a huge amount of spend to have not resolved all the traffic issues in the area. There are still long delays approaching the tunnell at both sides, the areas around the Dunkettle interchange like little island are still gridlocked at peak times and thats looking at current times with no schools and quieter traffic during summer holiday periods and no incidents.

If this is as good as it gets and the population of road users continues as it is then its not a great level to be starting from.

Are there any official figures on journey times and car numbers that contradict what im observing where pre construction and post construction levels are compared?

KrisW1001

The new interchange was never going to address capacity of the tunnel. It can’t. The capacity of each tunnel bore is fixed, and is not going to be increased.

What the interchange was meant to do, and what it actually does very well, is isolate the effects of congestion. So, if you’re backed up going north through the tunnel, other people can now still freely access the southbound bore. When the old roundabout was in place, congestion on any arm of the roundabout basically blocked access for all routes approaching it.

Yes, this is as good as it gets - but it’s also as bad as it gets too. The problem isn’t “not enough lanes”, it’s “too many private cars”. Our next move is to move current drivers onto alternative transport options. That means train or bus (you can’t cycle through the tunnel). To be clear, I did not just say “make everyone take the bus/train” - there will always be drivers who have no other option; right now, that’s almost all drivers, so we need to start providing those options. Reducing the number of drivers who have no choice but to drive through the tunnel every morning and evening is the best bang for the buck we can do here: there will not be another tunnel bore.

cork_south

I never envisaged, after spending close to 200 million euro, that my daily commute via the tunnel would be worse than it was previously but here we are.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122506918#Comment_122506918

I dont see how anything in the public transport arena can reduce numbers significantly enough, unless your talking about a widespread urban rail system linked to the trainstation taking in places like blarney, ballincollig, airport, douglas, ringaskiddy, carrigaline, mahon etc and thats never going to happen.

A huge portion of the traffic through the tunnel is commercial and wont ever change.

If someone is coming from east cork already and using the car then the trainline into town just dont suit their destination, an extension to youghal might help some people but of those from further afield than midleton that would use the train how many are not already driving to east cork stations parking and getting the train already?

hans aus dtschl

Well the upshot of it all is that many people who might have traditionally seen the likes of myself as some kind of green-obsessed sustainable transport weirdos are now fully persuaded that we need to invest in other modes. Cars will always be part of the picture but in and around the city, the car can't be king in the urban area.

We now have councillors of traditional parties speaking out saying "Dunkettle is done and the car commute is still bad, can we please invest in other modes". So every cloud has a silver lining I suppose.

Edit: it still boils my pi$$ that they didn't put in a proper East-West cycle/pedestrian route through the scheme. They absolutely knew the issues and specifically chose not to design for them.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507002#Comment_122507002

Commercial traffic flows fine, as most of it avoids the morning and evening commuter peaks anyway. I use this road a lot: it’s only bad from 07:45 to 09:00 and then 16:30 to 17:30, Southbound is worse in the mornings than northbound; it reverses in the evening, Friday’s evening peak is about half an hour earlier than usual. But outside of those times, traffic flows freely.

But commercial traffic is only a small minority of what’s on this road. There’s only one cause here, and it’s an enormous rise in private car commuters. Nobody is choosing to do this crappy commute; they’re forced to. There are lots of reasons for this, but the biggest is that our dysfunctional housing market is forcing people to live further and further from their place of work, so people who would normally have lived within the city boundaries are now commuting from as far away as Youghal.

The point I was making is that there will be no more spent on this road: the only way to accommodate more cars is to build another tunnel bore, and that will cost the better part of a billion euro, and based on every similar intervention everywhere else on earth, within five years, the traffic jams will be back. It’s just not happening. If we’re going to spend over €500 million in Cork to reduce traffic congestion in the tunnel, there’s cleverer and more effective ways to do it than expensively kicking the can down the road for a few years.

“Better options” means better public transport in general, but it doesn’t just mean public transport. It also means providing more homes in the places where they’re needed, and where there’s better access to public transport. It’s not like all of the the people living miles away are in their dream home on a huge site: most are living in the same kind of new-build semi-D packed in a private housing estate that they couldn’t afford anywhere nearer to Cork.

Chris_5339762

…and another tunnel bore won't work. What would be needed is another tunnel bore, 3 lanes through to the M28 junction and across the Douglas Viaduct to the Kinsale Road junction.

And even then all of the offramps will be jammed up solid.

But there is no political will to do much really. You can add all the trains you like to the eastern corridor, it won't change the fact that the onward connections from Kent station are very poor still.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508084#Comment_122508084

Yes. Getting off topic, but the Cork Light Rail is going to be a big part of the answer here, as there's zero chance of a direct heavy-rail service into the trip magnets of Mahon, Bishopstown.

Agreed with the extra costs of another tunnel bore, but most damningly it would also require building Dunkettle interchange for a third time, and even the normally car-blind crusaders against "government waste" would object to that.

The knock on works needed to facilitate another tunnel bore would pay for a bus corridors and couple of light rail lines in the city. That's where the transport budget has to go now.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507206#Comment_122507206

Another piece of the pie is a north ring road connecting to the south ring somewhere on the western side of the city and the M8 ideally around watergrasshill.

The tunnel is the essentially funnelling the majority of traffic into two lanes to cross the river as its the only way to cross the river outside of the city bridges (discounting the Bridge at the anglers as its local road). So essentially the tunnel is taking all the southbound traffic from East of the current M8, a lot from west of M8 inside the urban area, and almost all beyond that from watergrasshill up. Traffic from Limerick to the airport or ringaskiddy is forced off dual carriageway into urban areas and onto DC again

The same is true of the northbound traffic and its taking in a greater area as west cork and many areas of Kerry are forced to use the tunnel travelling almost anywhere north.

Sure public transport needs improving, the Mallow and Midleton train lines need expanding in service and maybe some stations need work, but Cork needs a ring road. North cork needs to and can grow and a ring road will help that and alleviate a lot of the pressure on the Tunnel.

Chris_5339762

Another way I think about it is for both commuting, short or long distance traffic, just try getting from anywhere in the Cork area to anywhere else in the Cork area without going on the N40. Its next to impossible.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508718#Comment_122508718

Would agree totally with this. The North Ring is massively needed - in fact doing the Limerick Road without it seems like yet another recipe for disaster.

The second thing that could be done - and surely done pretty cheaply and quickly if there was a will to do it - are the Park & Rides that were promised years ago. Put them on the artery routes and charge a euro for a car - it surely can't make things worse than what they are.

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509482#Comment_122509482

Yes, doing the M20 without doing the M20 - M8 link is one of the dumbest decisions currently being drawn up. And for Mr Ryan to not fund the entire north ring is an absolute joke, especially given this. You can't with any logic have freight etc from Ringaskiddy any up the west coast being routed M28 - N40 - Blackpool - M20. Its absolutely daft, and for the sake of only a few kilometers of a connection.

And no, the Northern Distributor is not an acceptable alternative.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509482#Comment_122509482

There was talk of a park and ride in glounthane, but its hard to see irish rail happy about having that competition directly on its rail line.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509529#Comment_122509529

No the P&R is planned for North Esk. I don't see the value in it, I'd prefer them to pump money into Little Island instead. By all means put in a new stop and develop in North Esk but P&R there seems wasteful.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508718#Comment_122508718

I'm in favour of the North Ring, but not at the expense of the massive investment in urban transport. The N40 North must have few junctions. It's currently being talked about as connecting at the existing Killylough junction (Sarsfields Court), rather than Watergrasshill.

Unfortunately even if we do the North Bypass, most East Cork traffic is still going through Dunkettle, so the urban transport system is the top priority for me. The council are trying to progress the Northern Distributor project at least, so that's a start.

I want a North Bypass, a Northern Distributor and massive Cork Urban Sustainable Transport investment, but if I must pick priorities then then it's the urban transport network, then the distributor (because of the lack of housing) and then the North Bypass, in that order.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509516#Comment_122509516

I think you can blame Ryan for a lot, but not this. The N40 North was deliberately not coupled with the NM20 purely because it's been so difficult to get the NM20 moved. This was before Ryan's time. It may suit him perfectly, it may be his preference, but it wasn't his doing. The not moving the N40 project itself north separately is likely him alright.

Agreed the Distributor is not an acceptable alternative. It's not an alternative full stop. But it's probably a priority above the N40 North in fairness, due to the lack of housing.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509529#Comment_122509529

Surely there could be a P&R that uses the railway??

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509836#Comment_122509836

As in the train station having a carpark?

pauly58

Surely an answer to the rush hour jams would be if you can work from home you should be allowed to do so. I'm not saying make it compulsory or obviously if your work makes it impossible, but if you can & want to do it, then it should be possible. Both of my sons work from home & wouldn't have it any other way.

I think a lot of managers were worried that with people working from home & things going fine then they weren't needed.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509946#Comment_122509946

Why not have a dedicated train stop at the freight area with a multistorey car park. It's not unusual at all in an international context. Granted the bus connections from Kent needs to be massively improved. But that's all possible with a reasonable investment.

hans aus dtschl

I'm not sure what you're both discussing, but the current P&R proposal is a surface car park at North Esk, feeding a train station there. I'm saying put the parking at Little Island and develop North Esk as an office-type employment area like Eastgate. It'd be connected by "greenway" (let's not discuss the shambolic design).

KrisW1001

Most of the North Esk industrial area is privately operated. The stacks of containers you see by the railway are not CIÉ’s business, but in an inland container terminal operated by Cosgrave Transport. P+R is all that’s possible in the space available at North Esk. I also think that a diversion to a P+R site at Little Island would be too far for traffic arriving from M8.

Tenants of any office development so far outside of the city would insist on having car-parking spaces (see EastGate), and that would eat up the available land. I think it’s better to put office developments at Kent Station, and use these outer areas as P+R locations.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122510780#Comment_122510780

I think the P&R at North Esk is already far too far from the M8 to be of any real value. It'll only really be useful for people coming from the East. Almost nobody is coming down the M8 and going in to Tivoli now, they're all exiting at Killalough and Watergrasshill and rat running through the Northside. I see almost no value in another car park 1km away from Little Island station car park.

I'd agree that tenants of office developments outside the city want parking spaces, but they're already being refused them: see the unfortunately-named Parkplace in Eastgate! I definitely agree that it's better to encourage offices at Kent in fairness, I just don't see the value in a P&R so close to Little Island and so far from the M8. I'd sooner see one at the other side of the Interchange at the Tivoli Crosbie Transcar holding lot: it could double up as a station for the future development of the lands there. With loads of spaces free in Little Island every day I'd say of all the proposed stations in the Cork area, the North Esk one looks like one of the least useful