Irish Times article

Caroline_ie

Full Article

Not sure this helping

Crapjob Sean

Putting one hand out to indicate is all very well, but I have to steer as well.

160,000 Fiona McCanns on the road.

Lord help us.

Caroline_ie

Basically, if I understand properly, she moaned all the way into work, because:

1 - Not enjoying it
2 - Not Trying to Enjoying
3 - Not assertive enough to enjoy it

This deserves a whole big MEH' ...

fenris

Has some of the the hallmarks of being done under orders by the editor alright!

But she is probably describing a fairly accurate picture of a driver cycling their normal route for the first time, not really knowing what to do at certain junctions, best road position for a given situation, where to push out and claim your space, that WTF feeling when you encounter a group of busses with their brownian motion autopilots on high and realise that you have to pass through the middle of them!

So I would cut her a little slack, if she were to do the same spin again she would probably have a better idea of how to flow through her route smoothly, which to me is what it is all about.

Caroline_ie

fenris wrote: »

she is probably describing a fairly accurate picture of a driver cycling their normal route for the first time, not really knowing what to do at certain junctions, best road position for a given situation, where to push out and claim your space, that WTF feeling when you encounter a group of busses with their brownian motion autopilots on high and realise that you have to pass through the middle of them!

When I have to drive to commute I scream of horror, I hate it so much. What I fear is that the unhappy car commuters will become the new unhappy bike commuter, all frustrated and pissed off ... as they are when driving in to work.

Lumen

fenris wrote: »

But she is probably describing a fairly accurate picture of a driver cycling their normal route for the first time, not really knowing what to do at certain junctions, best road position for a given situation, where to push out and claim your space, that WTF feeling when you encounter a group of busses with their brownian motion autopilots on high and realise that you have to pass through the middle of them!

So I would cut her a little slack

This is what I would expect if my Mum called me to tell me about it. This person is an Irish Times journalist FFS - she could at least attempt to learn to do it properly.

€1.80 is a lot of money for poor-quality toilet paper.

thebouldwhacker

Justin Rea says:
Today, 10:06:45


“Two rules for cycling in Ireland:

1. You are invisible
2. All other road users are trying to kill you




+1

MadHatter

fenris wrote: »

So I would cut her a little slack, if she were to do the same spin again she would probably have a better idea of how to flow through her route smoothly, which to me is what it is all about.

Agree with that. After a week of the doing the commute she'd be much more comfortable, and probably much more assertive on the bike too.

To be honest, the main body of the article seemed reasonable enough. Acknowledgement that there are issues with cycling in the city, but there are steps being taken to resolve these issues. Particulary on the area of education, for both motorists and cyclists. The only thing that bugged me was the tag-line on the photo - " Fiona McCann on Custom House Quay* as she battles traffic on route to work." - I cycle down Custom House Quay every morning and the only battling I do is to get round some of the slower cyclists (but then I guess they are traffic too!).

The story of her trip is a certainly melodramatic. It does appear that she researched and wrote the piece in advance, and was then told she'd have to cycle in to try to experience it all herself! She clearly wasn't doing it off her own bat. It was her first trip, she was nervous, probably inexperienced on bikes in general - it's always going to be easier to pick up on any bad aspects of the trip and report them. No indication of the time she saved (if any), no indication of her state of mind & body when she arrived (most cyclists feel refreshed), no longer term monitoring to report on the health and fitness benefits. The editor should really make her do it for a couple of months and have her report back after that.

* the tag-line on the photo mentions Custom House Quay, but the article says she turned right over O'Connell Bridge. Someone's geography is not up to scratch.

Gavin

Yo Ciaran Fallon, you should join in on these threads. It would be great to talk directly to someone trying to change things in DCC. If you've read the forum much, you know that the majority are reasonable people and won't try to lambast you !

kenmc

Putting one hand out to indicate is all very well, but I have to steer as well.

Crapjob Sean wrote: »

160,000 Fiona McCanns on the road.

Lord help us.

Give her a break - maybe she only has the one hand - that *is* a dilemma.

Vélo

Gavin wrote: »

Yo Ciaran Fallon, you should join in on these threads. It would be great to talk directly to someone trying to change things in DCC. If you've read the forum much, you know that the majority are reasonable people and won't try to lambast you !

I'm sure Tiny will even give you one of his fine recipes

Gavin

Another article about the policy document
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0422/1224245135566.html

Danbo!

In fairness down the quays and a right turn across O'Connell Bridge isn't easy or very safe for any cyclist, and would be quite daunting the first few times. I agree with the above posters that it would become more enjoyable with experience.

Having said that, it's not the article isn't the greatest advertisement for someone considering getting out of the car and onto a bike. Would have been a much better idea to interview somebody who cycles and drives their commute on different days, comparing pros and cons.

petethedrummer

I thought it was a perfectly reasonable article. She just needs more practice.

With all these proposals on cycling and things in general, why don't the people in charge just take a trip to a city/country where its done properly and copy what is done there. Plagarism has got me to where I am in life today.

niceonetom

I'm sure her first attempt at rush hour traffic driving a car wasn't much fun either, but her opinions after one journey behind the wheel would be dismissed as teething trouble by almost all readers. In this case though her first impressions will be taken by most readers as a good appraisal of what cycling in Dublin is like. Shame really.

Is there some sort of 1984 ministry-for-cycling-journalism where they have machines that just chop up random bits from old "my day as a cyclist" articles, interspersed with the latest government cycling initiative paper, and automatically produce these articles? Sure seems that way.

Crapjob Sean

Dublin bike safety video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxnOaz0QRVA

blorg

On the one hand she describes a scary journey into work that might put people off cycling. On the other hand she does list real problems encountered, that need to be dealt with: too close overtaking, bus overtaking just to pull in, bicycle lane starting only to end 500m later, lack of room on the left to progress, bus driver not checking his mirror before he pulls out.

Yes assertive cycling will help but these are all problems that need addressing, mainly from a driver behaviour point of view. I know I've experienced all of them. Some jurisdictions specify leaving cyclists a minimum 1.5m/3ft when overtaking as a legal requirement, that would be a good start. If you overtake closer you are breaking the law.

Chips Lovell

Her piece reminded me of the first few times I cycled on the streets. I was very nervous and saw danger everywhere.

Back when I wsa 17 I got a few driving lessons. To be honest the feeling was pretty much the same. In short, whether its a car or a bike, you get used to it.

Having said that, I was on the receiving end of a nasty bit of road rage last night.

lukester

My Name is Mario wrote: »

I was on the receiving end of a nasty bit of road rage last night.

Do tell.

boxty

Lads,

I don't think it was her first time cycling into work because a while back I was in cycleogical inquiring about the cycle to work schme (and about to ask for pump:D). The owner asked me if I was from the Irish Times as they had already sold a load of bikes to Times' employees. In fact, on of the journalists, Frank McNally came in to collect his Trek 7.1FX while I was there. So I reckon, Ms McCann probably availed of the scheme too.

Anyway, I though it was an alright article and the proposed City Council website where cyclists can suggest sites for parking etc defo sounds like a good idea. However, the discrepancy between her alleged route and the photo of her on Custom House Quay was a bit of an oversight to let slip. Good to see the paper is promoting cycling though.

Vélo

boxty wrote: »

Lads,

I don't think it was her first time cycling into work because a while back I was in cycleogical inquiring about the cycle to work schme (and about to ask for pump:D). The owner asked me if I was from the Irish Times as they had already sold a load of bikes to Times' employees. In fact, on of the journalists, Frank McNally came in to collect his Trek 7.1FX while I was there. So I reckon, Ms McCann probably availed of the scheme too.

Anyway, I though it was an alright article and the proposed City Council website where cyclists can suggest sites for parking etc defo sounds like a good idea. However, the discrepancy between her alleged route and the photo of her on Custom House Quay was a bit of an oversight to let slip. Good to see the paper is promoting cycling though.

I think it's a Kona she's cycling also. I'd imagine though it was her 1st time as she seems to imply it in the article.

Chips Lovell

lukester wrote: »

Do tell.

Was changing lanes to take the turn for my street. Some guy in a Mercedes pulled up alongside me, forcing me back to the left, honking his horn and shouting "get off the road, ya p***k". I chased him all the way up the street, but didn't catch him, which was probably just as well.

Vélo

My Name is Mario wrote: »

Was changing lanes to take the turn for my street. Some guy in a Mercedes pulled up alongside me, forcing me back to the left, honking his horn and shouting "get off the road, ya p***k". I chased him all the way up the street, but didn't catch him, which was probably just as well.

Yet another jerk in a merc:D

lukester

My Name is Mario wrote: »

Was changing lanes to take the turn for my street. Some guy in a Mercedes pulled up alongside me, forcing me back to the left, honking his horn and shouting "get off the road, ya p***k". I chased him all the way up the street, but didn't catch him, which was probably just as well.

That makes my blood boil just to read.

Did you get a reg?

After moments like those I have Travis Bickle like revenge fantasies.

Some day a real rain will come...

unionman

Very cycling Irish Times today, in addition to her article there is an editorial piece (they must have been ages coming up with that headline) and a humorous piece by Frank McNally who is a cyclist.

Agree with niceonetom, on the one hand a reasonable article about first time out but does little to encourage the would-be cyclist.

This article (pages 10 & 11) is much better. Even the headline is excellent. And it predicts the introduction of a cycle to work scheme in the last budget. This guy is clearly very clever/intuitive/pushing his luck (delete as appropriate ;-))

DirkVoodoo

+1 to tom as well, I'm sure her experience mirrors most people's first time, the difference is they may discourage one or two people while she may discourage thousands.

I hope there will at least be a "2 months later" follow up where we can see her conversion somewhere between Dublin and Damascus.

Also, I found town a bit tricky at times yesterday with all the one way traffic it can be hard to negotiate. Removing myself from the kerb and putting myself in plain view was a handy solution. I find the biggest problem si traffic speeding down leeson street makes it hard to get into the right hand turning lane on stephen's green, after which you have to merge with more speeding traffic coming down from the Camden street direction.

DirkVoodoo

Also, about Mario's (shudder) incident, I think if the plans for Ireland to become a cycling haven are to ever be realised, incidents such as these should be treated extremely seriously when reported, no more "its your word against theirs", let's have a bit of protection for cyclists. If motorists thought they could get points (worse would be preferable, but I'll just say points for now) for hurling abuse at someone after trying to run them off the road, they wouldn't even bother.

Oh, and I would like to see all those boy racer cars junked too, but that ain't gonna happen. If people are so passionate about sticking massive spoilers and exhausts onto crappy japanese imports that's fair enough, you have a hobby. But can you not race them on a track at the weekend instead of public roads?

Chips Lovell

lukester wrote: »

Did you get a reg?

No. It was dark and I couldn't get close enough to read it.

Gavin

unionman wrote: »

This article (pages 10 & 11) is much better. Even the headline is excellent. And it predicts the introduction of a cycle to work scheme in the last budget. This guy is clearly very clever/intuitive/pushing his luck (delete as appropriate ;-))

I dunno, maybe some sort of race between a cyclist and car driver should be done, just to prove the authors point.

unionman

Gavin wrote: »

I dunno, maybe some sort of race between a cyclist and car driver should be done, just to prove the authors point.

You wouldn't let it lie would you?

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Oh, and I would like to see all those boy racer cars junked too, but that ain't gonna happen. If people are so passionate about sticking massive spoilers and exhausts onto crappy japanese imports that's fair enough, you have a hobby. But can you not race them on a track at the weekend instead of public roads?

The spoilers and exhausts are to impress the girls, not make the cars faster. Neither works.

However, I fully support your initiative to build more motor racing circuits in Ireland. If there's one thing that Ireland needs, it's more motor racing circuits.

alfalad

Lumen wrote: »

However, I fully support your initiative to build more motor racing circuits in Ireland. If there's one thing that Ireland needs, it's more motor racing circuits.

Imagine the fun we could have if the circuits were closed to cars every now and again and open to bikes! Perfect tarmac surface, some nice bends to test your cornering ability!! Reckon it could be fun!!

DirkVoodoo

Maybe we should campaign for mondello to include a bike lane for track bikes?

Crapjob Sean

I like that feeling where a motorist does something ****ty, yells at you and then motors off, but quickly realises that he's racing to a red light while you pedal furiously behind powered by righteous anger, your steely determined visage all too visible in his rear-view mirror.
Generally a car will not outrun you in the city centre, but they think they can.

DARKIZE

In fairness Dublin city centre at rush hour (which seems be to be 8am to 7pm now) is a pretty scary place for anyone not terribly confident on 2 wheels. The theory about getting more people on bikes is great, but in practise I'd be kind of concerned if my inexperienced cyclist girlfriend told me she was going to ride into her job in town.

For the strategy to work, you need;

segregated cycle lanes
bike parks/stands
bike-friendly public transport and stations

Anyone who's ever been in Copenhagen knows what I'm talking about.

eightyfish

My Name is Mario wrote: »

Was changing lanes to take the turn for my street. Some guy in a Mercedes pulled up alongside me, forcing me back to the left, honking his horn and shouting "get off the road, ya p***k". I chased him all the way up the street, but didn't catch him, which was probably just as well.

Agh! This happens to me every other day. I cycle home via the coombe, and have to turn right just before Centra. This means indicating and moving accross two lanes of traffic, and inevitably when I reach the inside lane some fukwit starts honking. How the hell else are you meant to turn?

blorg

eightyfish wrote: »

Agh! This happens to me every other day. I cycle home via the coombe, and have to turn right just before Centra. This means indicating and moving accross two lanes of traffic, and inevitably when I reach the inside lane some fukwit starts honking. How the hell else are you meant to turn?

I imagine they expect you are meant to stay on the left, dismount, wait for traffic to clear, and cross as a pedestrian. At least that is what the tool said who overtook me JUST AS I WAS TURNING right, middle of the road with my right arm outstretched... Along with stuff about how roads are for cars, if she hit me I'd be the one dead, etc.

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

I imagine they expect you are meant to stay on the left, dismount, wait for traffic to clear, and cross as a pedestrian. At least that is what the tool said who overtook me JUST AS I WAS TURNING right, middle of the road with my right arm outstretched... Along with stuff about how roads are for cars, if she hit me I'd be the one dead, etc.

Sometimes I feel like printing the relevant sections of road traffic law onto small cards and simply handing them to motorists who start making these kinds of weird assertions. I love how some people can be so confident in lecturing you on what they think is the law.

MadHatter

eightyfish wrote: »

Agh! This happens to me every other day. I cycle home via the coombe, and have to turn right just before Centra. This means indicating and moving accross two lanes of traffic, and inevitably when I reach the inside lane some fukwit starts honking. How the hell else are you meant to turn?

Right hand out, arm slightly bent and relaxed, glance over shoulder and look driver in the eye, move across slowly, second glance over shoulder looking directly at driver before you enter the right hand lane.

If it looks like a driver is not going to yield, stick you arm out poker straight, or stick your finger out and use a pointing/prodding motion. Glance over shoulder, engage eye contact with driver (the arm action should have alerted them at this stage). Continue to move across. Do not veer back to the left at any point as they the driver will interpret this as you conceeding defeat.

If the driver continues up alongside you, rap your knuckle off the bonnet of the car. That'll get their attention! Have to say I've never reached the stage of actually having to do this, but I wouldn't hesitate to do if it came to it.

You have to remember that while a few motorists will happily try to intimidate you, the chance that one will deliberately make contact with you are very slim. They will back off once you show you know what you are doing.

petethedrummer

MadHatter wrote: »

stick you arm out poker straight, or stick your finger out and use a pointing/prodding motion.

Works for me too.

Civilian_Target

Frankly, that article sums up pretty well what cycling for the first time in Dublin was like for me too.... and it lasted a few weeks.

blorg

@MadHatter, I can't agree with what you post there. Indicating does not give you right of way.

If you are changing lane you need to wait until either the lane you want to move into is clear or the driver in that lane is clearly letting you into it, you can't just stick your arm out and away you go. If it looks like a driver is not going to yield, do not move in front of them, wait until it is clear.

Of course my understanding of what you are saying may be all in the subtleties, if the next car in the lane you want to move into is a fair way back you can of course move into it. Make sure you are in the centre of the lane you are in with arm outstretched before you try to move into the next one; you should be the centre of the right turning lane when making your right turn.

monument

The Herald was also cycling today...

How I was driven off my bike by this city's 'psycho-paths'
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/comment/how-i-was-driven-off-my-bike-by-this-citys-psychopaths-1715539.html

My Name is Mario wrote: »

Sometimes I feel like printing the relevant sections of road traffic law onto small cards and simply handing them to motorists who start making these kinds of weird assertions. I love how some people can be so confident in lecturing you on what they think is the law.

I have thought nearly the same thing, but my idea was to keep a few copies of the rules of the road in my bag (have not done this yet!).

monument

Oh, and forgot to post this from two weeks ago, also in the Times...

On your bike for electric pedal power
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2009/0408/1224244206204.html

(hmm... an editorial and a feature within two weeks using 'on your bike')

Gavin

I hate the 'on your bike' phrase.

buffalo

Gavin wrote: »

I dunno, maybe some sort of race between a cyclist and car driver should be done, just to prove the authors point.

The Irish Times did do this a couple of years ago, IIRC. A cyclist, a motorcyclist and a motorist. The motorcyclist took the shortest amount of time, by about five minutes. Then the cyclist, and about 40mins later the car.

monument

buffalo wrote: »

The Irish Times did do this a couple of years ago, IIRC. A cyclist, a motorcyclist and a motorist. The motorcyclist took the shortest amount of time, by about five minutes. Then the cyclist, and about 40mins later the car.

Something along those lines was done on RTE a year or two ago (I think it was on 'Capital D'). It was from Blanch / Castleknock and also included the train, and bus. Can't remember if a motorcycle was in that race, but the cyclist bet all the others.

MadHatter

blorg wrote: »

@MadHatter, I can't agree with what you post there.

It must be in the subtleties, I didn't think I was being particularly controversial...

blorg wrote: »

Indicating does not give you right of way.

Yes, I'm fully aware of that. I'm a motorist too, rules are the same. And if you read my post again you'll see I didn't imply right of way.

However, it's part of the give-and-take between cyclists and motorists that should be included in any cyclist/motorist education. If a cyclist wants to move from the inside of the road (say bus lane or cycle track), across the inner lane and then to the outer lane, the cyclist is generally not doing it for the craic, they have a specific reason i.e. to turn. If a motorist then prevents the move when they have the opportunity to let it go ahead, or if a motorist sits on the horn because you delayed them for 5 seconds, then that motorist deserves a boot up the arse.

Of course, the alternative for the cyclist is get into the outside lane from the start, and hold up all the motorists as they cycle @ 20/25km the whole way along. But cyclists don't do this because they are aware of the give-and-take approach to road use.

blorg wrote: »

If you are changing lane you need to wait until either the lane you want to move into is clear or the driver in that lane is clearly letting you into it, you can't just stick your arm out and away you go. If it looks like a driver is not going to yield, do not move in front of them, wait until it is clear.

I certainly wouldn't suggest any cyclist veers across in front of a car in another lane. I suggested you move across your own lane as you indicate. It's re-enforcing your intention to change lane, and it's an additional way to attract the drivers attention. You are moving closer to their lane, narrowing their path in effect, it's hard for them to ignore you.

Maybe I'll clarify my comment of rapping the bonnet of the car...if the driver doesn't really have the opportunity to let you in (for whatever reason) then thats fine, but if the driver has the opportunity but decides to floor it and race past you, then IMO they are fair game for abuse.

MadHatter

monument wrote: »

Something along those lines was done on RTE a year or two ago (I think it was on 'Capital D'). It was from Blanch / Castleknock and also included the train, and bus. Can't remember if a motorcycle was in that race, but the cyclist bet all the others.

T'was Capital D. A race between a cyclist, bus user and motorist. Blanchardstown Village to Central Bank.

Cyclist won by a country mile followed by bus user and then driver. Despite taking over twice as long as cyclist (30mins vs 65mins or thereabouts) and about 10 mins more than bus user, motorist was unpertubed and said she would continue to drive rather than look at alternative options. Obviously she doesn't place much value on her free time..

blorg

@Madhatter- fair enough, but when moving out (including leaving a cycle lane) I will always make sure a motorist immediately behind me in the lane I want to move into is OK with that, and wait if necessary... If the first one isn't letting me out, I'll let them go past, it never takes more than a couple before one gives an indication that they are letting me out. Generally the first one does. Doesn't slow me down in any way.

I suggested you move across your own lane as you indicate. It's re-enforcing your intention to change lane, and it's an additional way to attract the drivers attention. You are moving closer to their lane, narrowing their path in effect, it's hard for them to ignore you.

Sure, and I'll do this, but if they are clearly not letting me out, I just wait for them to pass, I don't try to force it or rap their car or anything. Same as a car, if they let you out it is a courtesy, they don't have to. Same reason I will always give a wave when I am let out.

By the way with this technique I do generally tend to start indicating early, not just before the junction. I can't honestly remember the last time I actually stopped, it is always possible to get across if you start early enough.

The person I was giving out about overtook me when I was already in the middle of the road with my arm stuck out, e.g. she came up behind me in the same lane and just overtook.

DirkVoodoo

Gavin wrote: »

I hate the 'on your bike' phrase.

Oi! Hoy, race ya!

On yer bike!

*Shudder* I hate that ad!