Could we be DCM Pacers?

--amadeus--

Offshoot of the mentoring thread and my last new one of the day, I promise!

DCM doesn't have official pacers, which is a shame. I reckon the 30th anniversary would be a great time to introduce them and I'm sure that we have both the talent and the numbers here to act as pacers.

I would imagine you would need to split the times up like this:

4:30 (pacer must be sub 4 standard)
4:15 (3:45 standard)
4:00 (3:30 standard)
3:45 (3:30 - 3:15 standard)
3:30 (3:15 - 3:00 standard)
3:15 (3:00 or better)

We'd be well covered, particularly at 3:30 and down. However being a pacer means training for a race you will run a lot slower than you can. It also means possibly having to pay race entry and hotel fees for a race you will cruise rather than put any effort into. And it's a big responsibility - the pacer will have to be very smooth in thier running and splits and ideally be a motivational type, certainly someone who is outgoing and positive.

If we get a bit of interest in this then I can get on to the race director and see if we can get some support from them for this. But I don't want to go to him and do a whole big "we can do this!" spiel if no one here is interested!

So, any thoughts? Anyone interested? Anyone interested if certain conditions are met?

Woddle

I would consider pacing the 4 hours or the 4:15 if you'll still have me after the Paris episode
Ive already signed up for Dublin but was going to pull out so this would give me a reason to run it and I won't need to do alot as its only a few weeks after Berlin so I'm sure I can stay in shape.
Preference for 4 hours
current pb 3:37

Peckham

Would love to do this, but am away that weekend at a friend's wedding. As with Woddle, I'm doing Berlin a few weeks earlier so would have been able to bring the 3:30, or even the 3:15 group around.

Is a great way for us to get the Boards name out there in the running community, and be seen to be giving something back straight away.

--amadeus--

Peckham wrote: »

Would love to do this, but am away that weekend at a friend's wedding. As with Woddle, I'm doing Berlin a few weeks earlier so would have been able to bring the 3:30, or even the 3:15 group around.

Is a great way for us to get the Boards name out there in the running community, and be seen to be giving something back straight away.

Pffft, lightweight, letting a friends wedding get in the way of a race!

KC has also thrown in a bid for sub 4 so that's 2 confirmed. If I do Amsterdam rather than Dublin as my main race then I could probably manage the 3:45 group - there is only a week between them though so 4:30 might be a safer bet. My big issue is around family commitments - two consecutive marathon weekends might strain finances and marital relations a wee bit too far...

Agreed that it would be a great way to push the club onto the national stage.

Krusty_Clown

I volunteered in the other thread (also for the 4 hour marker) having also hopefully successfully competed in Berlin 4.5 weeks earlier. So perhaps we could have two four hour pacers, one at the front of the sub-4 hour pack, and one to the rear. I can also sing the rocky tune on demand, and look good with helium balloons attached to my waist. :cool:

Alternatively, if there's a pacer there for 4 hours already, would happily take on 3:20 or 3:30 (qualifying race results pending over the next few months).

shels4ever

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Offshoot of the mentoring thread and my last new one of the day, I promise!

DCM doesn't have official pacers, which is a shame. I reckon the 30th anniversary would be a great time to introduce them and I'm sure that we have both the talent and the numbers here to act as pacers.

I would imagine you would need to split the times up like this:

4:30 (pacer must be sub 4 standard)
4:15 (3:45 standard)
4:00 (3:30 standard)
3:45 (3:30 - 3:15 standard)
3:30 (3:15 - 3:00 standard)
3:15 (3:00 or better)

We'd be well covered, particularly at 3:30 and down. However being a pacer means training for a race you will run a lot slower than you can. It also means possibly having to pay race entry and hotel fees for a race you will cruise rather than put any effort into. And it's a big responsibility - the pacer will have to be very smooth in thier running and splits and ideally be a motivational type, certainly someone who is outgoing and positive.

If we get a bit of interest in this then I can get on to the race director and see if we can get some support from them for this. But I don't want to go to him and do a whole big "we can do this!" spiel if no one here is interested!

So, any thoughts? Anyone interested? Anyone interested if certain conditions are met?

It's a good idea, I'm sure this thread will be noticed by people involved with the DCM as there are one or 2 on the board.

I wouldnt be able to offer any services in regards pacing but like the idea so coudl help out in other ways if needed.

Daithi BC

I'll be touring Berlin with Krusty Clown on the 20th of September, but depending on how well I recover from that, I might be available for the 3:30 group, which would be slightly slower than my long run pace. I always fancied the idea of pacing a group around - it fits in nicely with my numbers obsessed/even pacing way of running!

HardyEustace

Satisfactory rear views would be of tremendous help to those of us that would be trailing in the wake of the pacers

Hard Worker

I know the Race Director well.:)
I can put your idea to him and try to secure 10 free entries. The problem with pacing is that it was abused the last time and people didn't do "what it says on the tin". However, if we could get pacemakers like Paris that would be great.
Leave it with me.

jlang

Wasn't planning an autumn marathon and I don't think I have the experience to commit to an even pace yet but I'd like to say this is an excellent idea whether organised informally here or in association with the race organisers (better).

Spotting the 3:30 pacemaker in Vienna was reassuring for me setting my own pace in the early stages. 3 balloons above and a clear "3:30 to finish" on his shirt made him stand out from a distance. He looked like the kind of guy who'd whistle his way around and appeared open to conversation/encouragement with/for the people around him. Curiously, the 4:00 pacer was some distance ahead of the 3:30 guy at quarter distance so I can only think he was either running irregular splits or had started in the wrong section or maybe just being contrary, but what's the use in that?

mrak

A mate of mine is a brilliant pace judge and did the 3 hr pacing for dcm in 08. He crossed the line in 2:59-something which was great work by him, but unfortunately he was almost alone having lost the large group that tagged long from the start. I wonder about the value of pacers? I thiink running at someone elses pace (even if it's an even one) could be very distracting or demotivating.. and even tiring.

If I were racing over a long distance there might be patches in which I need to slow down and marshal my resources.. if I saw the pace group vanish into the distance it could demotivate me a bit. Similarly there are times when you feel great and need to capitalise on it by putting in some strong miles - you might be put off getting the minutes in the bank by having to tag with the pace group.

The other downside I see is for the pacer themselves. A marathon is a big commitment for anyone - even a pacer. One the day you could find yourself in exceptionally good shape (this was the case with my mate) or just on a very off day. These could be frustrating for opposing reasons in that you could miss the opportunity of scoring a great time for yourself or you could really struggle and even injure yourself in setting the pace.

If someone wanted to break a certain time for a marathon or any race I think I'd advise them to train appropriately and run their own race and ignore all other runners - including pacers.

911sc

Hard Worker wrote: »

The problem with pacing is that it was abused the last time and people didn't do "what it says on the tin".

Would you mind explaining? i am curious about it..

Hard Worker wrote: »

However, if we could get pacemakers like Paris that would be great.

That was the business...up to the point at which you have to accept that you can't follow your "selected" pacers:(. Also, i thought starting pens worked wonders.

Hard Worker

911sc wrote: »

Would you mind explaining? i am curious about it..



That was the business...up to the point at which you have to accept that you can't follow your "selected" pacers:(. Also, i thought starting pens worked wonders.

Sorry 911sc, what I meant was that the pacers didn't do as they promised in a number of cases. It can be very upsetting for people who are trying to achieve certain times if the pace maker isn't doing his job properly. Pace makers have to be very unselfish. In my opinion, they have to run an even pace all the way and must think of the people around them.

Daithi BC

mrak wrote: »

A mate of mine is a brilliant pace judge and did the 3 hr pacing for dcm in 08. He crossed the line in 2:59-something which was great work by him, but unfortunately he was almost alone having lost the large group that tagged long from the start. I wonder about the value of pacers? I thiink running at someone elses pace (even if it's an even one) could be very distracting or demotivating.. and even tiring.

I'm sure it depends on each individual, but the only time I followed a pacer (the great Mick Rice in Connemara in 2003), I found it a great help. There's no way I would have got up the final hill in one piece without it. Personally, it suits me to run an even pace, so I find it much easier mentally to follow a pacer than trying to run it on my own.

aburke

mrak wrote: »

A mate of mine is a brilliant pace judge and did the 3 hr pacing for dcm in 08. He crossed the line in 2:59-something which was great work by him, but unfortunately he was almost alone having lost the large group that tagged long from the start.

I think I know the man, he lurks here occassionally.
A few people in that group were being ambitious with their 3 hour plans. Not unrealistic, just very ambitious.

I wonder about the value of pacers? I thiink running at someone elses pace (even if it's an even one) could be very distracting or demotivating.. and even tiring.

Pacers might not be for everybody, but they can really help, especially in a marathon. Generally you run 20 miles 'below' max, and then hang on for 6. A good pacer 'holds you back' for 20 miles, and gives you something to hang onto for the last 6.2

Anyway Mark, you'd need Haile himself to pace you :-)


I'm even considering pacers for the next magic mile meet. Someone to lead people out at 5:00 pace, 5:30 pace etc for people targeting those times.

The other downside I see is for the pacer themselves. A marathon is a big commitment for anyone - even a pacer.

Agreed on this.
It takes a LOT to be a good pacer.
Absolute commitment to the day - other people are relying on you.
Doing the training.
Very disciplined pacing.
The personality to keep a group together.
The ability to stay injury free...

I possess NONE of these traits :-(

Racing Flat

I reckon to do this properly the pacer wold want to be running well within themselves, e.g. the 4 hour pacer should either be able to run sub 3, or have many sub 3.30s to his name, and recently enough too. Or the sub 3 pacer should be able to go under 2.30. Just in case they have an off day. I suppose another option is allow 'slower' pacers but you'd need a few of them in case one or two did have a bad day.

HardyEustace

It's certainly a huge responsibility. It would be very rewarding, I'd love, love, love to think I'd be able to pace a marathon for someone one day. However, the weight of responsibility would weigh very heavily.

Which is why I'd be more than happy to contribute towards some kind of gratuity towards a pacer, be it pints at the bar or a bit towards the entry.

lecheile

Have a look here at the calibre of people who are pacing for runners world in London next weekend.

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=3981

Krusty_Clown

aburke wrote: »

It takes a LOT to be a good pacer.
Absolute commitment to the day - other people are relying on you.
Doing the training.
Very disciplined pacing.
The personality to keep a group together.
The ability to stay injury free...
(

I tick a lot of these boxes, but on the injury front, it's in the hands of the gods. I think you forgot one additional criteria: They need to know the course. When I paced my buddy in Connemara (target 3:40 - actual 3:38), we did an intentional positive split, knowing that the HOTW would consume an extra minute or two to climb, over the first half of the race (splits: 1:48 / 1:50).

At the end of the day, the pacer is a guide. He or she is not running the race for you. You cannot expect to just do the training, and turn up on the day and have the pacer run the race for you. You have to take responsibility for your own race, and your own motivation (though admittedly, the pacer can certainly help out in these regards). There is a good chance someone targeting a sub-4 will feel better on the day, and push on past the pacer, or feel worse, and drop behind.

Running Flat wrote:

e.g. the 4 hour pacer should either be able to run sub 3

Try to find a sub 3 runner to volunteer to run a 4 hour marathon (*Edit* In Dublin! London is one of the 5 majors! Just saw Lecheille's post), and you will be doing well. I think people would be keener to volunteer if it's at least within a half an hour band of their ability. Or were you volunteering?

HardyEustace

One thing that does make sense (numbers permitting) is to have two pacers per time.

damoz

Just wondering, why not send outriders out on a bike/even motorbike! etc. I know its not running, but it would work perfectly fine as a pacer and no risk of the pace not been correct, or the pacer breaking down.

Or is that a dumb idea..?

Running Bing

damoz wrote: »

Just wondering, why not send outriders out on a bike/even motorbike! etc. I know its not running, but it would work perfectly fine as a pacer and no risk of the pace not been correct, or the pacer breaking down.

Or is that a dumb idea..?

I imagine navigating around 6000 runners would be quite tricky for the bikes.


Can you imagine the carnage!:P

Peckham

damoz wrote: »

Just wondering, why not send outriders out on a bike/even motorbike! etc. I know its not running, but it would work perfectly fine as a pacer and no risk of the pace not been correct, or the pacer breaking down.

Or is that a dumb idea..?

Dangerous...and against the rules!

mrak

Hey Alan!

aburke wrote: »

Pacers might not be for everybody, but they can really help, especially in a marathon.

True - sure we can only speak for ourselves I guess. There must be something in it or they wouldn't be so popular!

aburke wrote: »

I'm even considering pacers for the next magic mile meet. Someone to lead people out at 5:00 pace, 5:30 pace etc for people targeting those times.

You're cracked. Sounds fun though! Pacing would actually be easier than it sounds for this I think as it's on a track. I'd be just printing out a list of target lap times and calling out the splits I think.

aburke wrote: »

...
I possess NONE of these traits :-(

Me neither!

robinph

Everybody should just get themselves a Garmin and set the virtual partner up for the right pace.

Worked for me on my targeting of a sub 40min 10k time.

shels4ever

robinph wrote: »

Everybody should just get themselves a Garmin and set the virtual partner up for the right pace.

Worked for me on my targeting of a sub 40min 10k time.

I dont think my OH would lke that
H

rainbow kirby

robinph wrote: »

Everybody should just get themselves a Garmin and set the virtual partner up for the right pace.

Worked for me on my targeting of a sub 40min 10k time.

Can't afford one

*continues working out pacing from MapMyRun and a cheap Casio watch from Argos*

aburke

mrak wrote: »

You're cracked. Sounds fun though! Pacing would actually be easier than it sounds for this I think as it's on a track.

Not that easy at all. A good pacer would need to know their splits every 200m, and stick to them, then leave the rest off with 500m to go.
I want to make the Magic mile meet into a proper track meet, but that it caters for all speeds, not just 4:30 milers.
We'll have a clock, proper starter and hopefully pacers next time.
Will I put you down to pace the 5:30 mile? Or even 6:00 mile, that would be easy enough for you to use as a warm up - you could then race the A mile?

Alan

Running Bing

aburke wrote: »

Not that easy at all. A good pacer would need to know their splits every 200m, and stick to them, then leave the rest off with 500m to go.
I want to make the Magic mile meet into a proper track meet, but that it caters for all speeds, not just 4:30 milers.
We'll have a clock, proper starter and hopefully pacers next time.
Will I put you down to pace the 5:30 mile? Or even 6:00 mile, that would be easy enough for you to use as a warm up - you could then race the A mile?

Alan

I take it this will be in Athenry Aburke?


Sounds great.

mrak

aburke wrote: »

Not that easy at all. A good pacer would need to know their splits every 200m, and stick to them, then leave the rest off with 500m to go.
I want to make the Magic mile meet into a proper track meet, but that it caters for all speeds, not just 4:30 milers.
We'll have a clock, proper starter and hopefully pacers next time.
Will I put you down to pace the 5:30 mile? Or even 6:00 mile, that would be easy enough for you to use as a warm up - you could then race the A mile?

Alan

PM'd you on this!

aburke

Babybing wrote: »

I take it this will be in Athenry Aburke?


Sounds great.

We had the first one last week.
Details here
http://www.athenryac.com/magic-night-dangan
http://www.athenryac.com/magic-mile-meet-dangan-galway
[if my server is behaving itself - a fun weekend of debugging awaits :-) ]

The next one will be in July, all going well.
Venue is Dangan Track, Regional Sports Centre , Galway
No track in Athenry... yet :-)

Alan

hunnymonster

I would potentially be interested in this. I've seen pacers in several marathons working well and things that help are

1. experience - I think people can pace with 15 mins of what they are comfy running so long as they have proven this a couple of times. For example, if I run a marathon as a training run, low HR etc I would expect to finish abour 3:30 so could very comfortably pace a 3:45 group

2. 2 pacers per time even if that means offering less times 3, 3:30, 4:00 rather than 3:00, 3:15,....

3. pacers need personality, they are there to hold the pace but also to bring people along with them. The best pacers I've seen have had sing alongs, interacted with the crowd, been able to pick out when their pacee's are struggling and help them through it. This is probably less relevant at the sharper end of the times but a real bonus for the penguins (google him) amongst us.

--amadeus--

hunnymonster wrote: »

I would potentially be interested in this.

Forget about it - if I'm racing this you're acting as my personal pacer / drag'er'alonger to a sub 3...

As for the value of pacers - I've been drifting to a slower pace a couple of times at the tail end of marathons and been dragged to a faster finish, once by an official pacer and once by someone I knew (and who I thought I had left many miles down the roa) suddenly appearing on my shoulder. And I think personality has a huge part of it.

In order to put the organisers minds at rest about pacing slots being abused any pacer could leave credit card details and then be charged a double race entry fee if they finish faster than they were supposed to (as in a few minutes of chip time is ok but a 3:45 pacer crossing the line in 3:15 is taking the pee)

Magnet

I`d pay someone`s entry to pace me to a sub3
But we`ll see how my training goes over the next few months...

--amadeus--

Hi folks,

there may be some movement on this so a repeated call for those who think they are willing or able to pace a marathon, at whatever speed...

Thanks!

Woddle

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Hi folks,

there may be some movement on this so a repeated call for those who think they are willing or able to pace a marathon, at whatever speed...

Thanks!

I reckon between myself and Krusty we could sort out the sub 4.

--amadeus--

Yep, we'll need 2 per pace band so I have teh pair of you down. If I do Amsterdam I could do either 3:45 or 4:15 / 4:30. HM has expressed an interest but didn't commit on a time. Which leaves us a long (long) way short!

So any other interest?

Daithi BC

Assuming I get through Berlin (target 2:50 to 2:55) in one piece, I'd be on for pacing the 3:30 group.

--amadeus--

That's brilliant.

Sub 3


3:15


3:30
Daithi BC

3:45


4:00
Krusty
Woddle

4:15


4:30


HM floating (are you in Mrs?!) and me as a backup, so we're 11 runners short...

Daithi BC

If you're stuck for another 3:30 pacer, I could ask the guy I'm training with for Berlin (PB 2:56:xx). He's not a Boardsie, but he was talking about doing Dublin "easy", so he might well be interested.

hunnymonster

Sub 3


3:15


3:30
Daithi BC

3:45
Hunnymonster (could move to 3:30 if needed)

4:00
Krusty
Woddle

4:15


4:30

Mick Rice

Even though I can't offer to help out directly with this as I hope to race Dublin this year, I have paced marathons three times before, Connemara twice, both times for 3:30 and Dublin last year to 3:00. It really was a very rewarding experience both times and great fun. I'm still in touch with some people that I met in these groups whom I didn't know beforehand. This is something I'd highly recommend to anyone who runs marathons regularly and is interested in spreading the 'running love' around a bit - if you know what I mean.

There are a few things that I think I've learnt from these experiences. In the first instance I'd guess that if you want to be sure of having two pacers at a particular target time then you should try to recruit three or four potential pacers. The drop-out rate for this job is very high as people get injured, sick or decide that they're just too fit to pace a race and want to race it instead. The first time I paced Connemara I was one of three or four pacers who had originally been lined up and was the only one who followed through. I'm not judging anyone else but that's the way it worked out.

The second thing I'd say is that the people who do this job best do it for no reward and that would include free race entries etc. If you're doing it 'from the goodness of your heart' you're more likely to do it well and take the job seriously.

It's also a little bit tricky to judge how much or how little you should interact with the people that you're pacing. Some people prefer to be told jokes and annecdotes and others want to be left the f**k alone to do their running. A balance is possible but not always easy. I work on the basis that it's great to chat through the first half with anyone brave enough to run alongside but the work generally gets a lot more serious from halfway.

The race itself should of course be no more than a moderate effort for the pacer. My marathon PB is 2:46 and I think I'm right at my pacing limit doing sub-3:00. Basically I believe you need to be able to run well within yourself for the first 20 miles or so and then just concentrate a little on completing the final miles as smoothly as possible. If you're closer to your limit you run the risk of hitting a bad day and letting people down.

I usually carry spare gels, some salt or salt tabs, some cash and a phone with me when I pace to try to cater for hiccups amongst the following crew. I'm not sure what the IAAF rules say on this but I try not to worry too much about it. I'd advise to not ever hang back off the pace because one of your number is struggling - they can either keep up with an even pace or they're not going to hit their target time at all. If you deviate from an even pace you let everyone down.

Jaysus I didn't mean to type that much....

hunnymonster

Thanks for that Mick, It's very helpful.

--amadeus--

An excellent post Mick, thanks. Any chance you'd be willing to hang around and spread teh word, help us try and fill out the ranks a bit?

Mick Rice

Absolutely...I'll see who I might recruit...

TURFMAN

Folks

The DCM crew have been very accepting of pacemakers in previous years.

Last year I paced some athletes (to halfway) for sub 2:30 and the DCM was very accommodating with free race entry etc.


Mick Rice is correct in that you sould have 3 or 4 pacers lined up for each group. Through one thing or another alot of pacers will be forced to drop out before the day arrives...

Great idea however, and best of luck with it

Krusty_Clown

Mick Rice wrote: »

I'd advise to not ever hang back off the pace because one of your number is struggling - they can either keep up with an even pace or they're not going to hit their target time at all. If you deviate from an even pace you let everyone down.

Thanks for the very informative post Mick. I guess if you're taking a mate around, you can afford the luxury of hanging back, but if you take on the responsibility of being a pacemaker for a group or a specific time slice, you can't afford to let down the group, for the needs of an individual.

On the subject of pacing and hills, do you think it's better to bank some time beforehand to allow the 'followers' to take the hills at a slightly more relaxed pace, or keep it at an even keel the whole way around? The Dublin example, would be banking some time on the downhill coming out of Phoenix Park, in order to allow for a slow-down around Roebuck?

In other words, are you a time-marker (remaining consistent throughout), rather than a group-pacer (making slight alternations to get everyone around in the required time)?

HardyEustace

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

On the subject of pacing and hills, do you think it's better to bank some time beforehand to allow the 'followers' to take the hills at a slightly more relaxed pace, or keep it at an even keel the whole way around? The Dublin example, would be banking some time on the downhill coming out of Phoenix Park, in order to allow for a slow-down around Roebuck?

In other words, are you a time-marker (remaining consistent throughout), rather than a group-pacer (making slight alternations to get everyone around in the required time)?

Good point KC, actually in the same vein, and something that only occurred to me recently - you'll probably slow going through water stations. Thus if you wanted to run a sub 4 marathon rather than saying "oh I have to run at a steady 9.16 min mile", you'd say "ok, I'm going to take ten minutes away for time faffing at water stations and therefore I have to run at a steady 8.77 min mile".

So al your training should be towards an 8.77 min miles rather than a 9.16 min mile.

plodder

HardyEustace wrote: »

Good point KC, actually in the same vein, and something that only occurred to me recently - you'll probably slow going through water stations. Thus if you wanted to run a sub 4 marathon rather than saying "oh I have to run at a steady 9.16 min mile", you'd say "ok, I'm going to take ten minutes away for time faffing at water stations and therefore I have to run at a steady 8.77 min mile".

So al your training should be towards an 8.77 min miles rather than a 9.16 min mile.

Actually, that's one great thing about Dublin, ie. the water comes in bottles, so there is far less faffing around at the water stations.

Mick Rice

I've always tried to keep the pace as even as possible but at the same time not get freaked out over any one mile split. I've found that running your best race is more about even effort rather than perfectly even splits.

I normally wouldn't have a specific pace plan that said 'on this mile or section I can afford to loose some time' but I'd keep and eye on both cumulative time and split time (I'd wear a pace band) and if I fall behind or get ahead I ever so slowly work back to a position of being on schedule within a reasonable time. When I paced Dublin for 3:00 last year I think I was about 40 secs behind schedule at halfway and went over the line in 2:59:35. I thought that was about right as the first half of Dublin is certainly a little slower.

osnola ibax

From a user point of view what would be considered proper etiquette if u felt you had it in u to go a bit faster and leave the group/pacer with < 6 miles to go, does this throw your fellow pacees off