African-American

Davidth88

I personally hate the term

' African American ' to descibe people who are black in colour in the US.

I also work with , and have family connections to people who are white in colour who live in South Africa. They quite reasonably to me describe themselves as African ( they have lived there for a number of generations ).

What to other people feel about this , is it ' PC ' or something ?

I see no harm in describing someone as Black if that differentiates them from other people , rather like I would describe someone as tall , short, red headed or whatever.

Am I wrong ?

tallus

Well the African Americans don't seem to mind, same as the Irish Americans, and Italian Americans.
Personally, I wouldn't lump skin colour in with "tall short and Red Headed" I mean, what has skin colour got to do with it ?

Davidth88

Personally, I wouldn't lump skin colour in with "tall short and Red Headed" I mean, what has skin colour got to do with it ?

As a way of describing someone.

You have a room full of people , you want to point out someone to your friend standing next to you , that person happens to be black ( and perhaps the only black person there ) , is it wrong to say ..... look at that that black person.

As long as you treat people equally ( which I strive to do ) , and don't discriminate against a person who happens to be black then I honestly don't see the issue .

As for the African American thing , certainly they don't mind but Africans who are white in colour could find this offensive .

Sorry , I should have split this into two threads

tallus

So you think describing someone by their skin colour is normal ?
I would see that as racist.

Lockstep

I don't see anything wrong with referring to someone as black/white etc.
It's a descriptive term, same way someone is blonde/tanned/a guy/short/fat etc etc

I heard about some guy who was applying to college in the states and from South Africa, checked in African American on the form and the college got shirty when they saw him.
I can see it happening although it sounds like "one of those stories"

Davidth88

Why is that racist ?

Racist means that you feel certain races are intrinsically superior , or being abusive towards someone from another race.

How by describing someone as black am I denoting / doing that ?

All men ( and women ) are equal ! However certainly people do look different and isn't that a wonderful and great thing ?

oscarBravo

Moved from Politics.

Davidth88

Thanks for moving , better forum should have spotted it.

WindSock

tallus wrote: »

So you think describing someone by their skin colour is normal ?
I would see that as racist.

Definition of Racism:

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race

http://www.answers.com/topic/racism

Using a skin colour to describe a person has nothing to do with treating them differently, it is an identitiy, same as hair colour or nationality. However if you treat them differently and feel they are inferior or superior because of their colour/nationality then that is racism.

As far as the term African American, if it's used by the person or group of people to describe themselves, then it is how they wish others to describe them.
While some from that group will call each other ******, it has to be understood that the majority will not use this word and don't like it to describe them because of the negative connotations that were ascribed to it in the past. It seems to be more of a youth cultural thing thats used with a sense of irony. A white person has never had to suffer that word been used at them, it has been the other way around. That is why it is unnacceptable for a white person to use it today.

Dades

tallus wrote: »

So you think describing someone by their skin colour is normal ?
I would see that as racist.

I would see that as hysterical. And not in the funny way.

jonsnow

Davidth88 wrote: »

As for the African American thing , certainly they don't mind but Africans who are white in colour could find this offensive .

why would they.In the US 99.9% of people of african descent are black and most probably don,t know what part of that continent their ancestors came from so they call themselves african-american.They cant call themselves ugandan-american are whatever because they dont know that they are.
If white africans emigrate to american they tend to know where they came from and call themselves south african or zimbabwen or whatever.They could legitimately call themselves african-american if they got US citizenship if it bothered them so much.
Anyway african americans used to call themselves black or coloured but these phrases became terms of abuse so they changed it to african american in the 70s and 80s.As apartheid was still going strong at that time and the vast majority of white africans were afrikaner I,m sure the african americans weren,t too concerned about hurting their feelings.

jonsnow

I hate the way some people use PC as a catchall form of abuse.As long as it is not carried to ridiculous lengths(as it sometimes obviously is) all it means is minimsing offense to gender, racial, cultural, disabled, aged or other identity groups and what could be wrong with that.

Davidth88

One thing I have never understood about the Americans....

No one there seems to describe themselves as American, as other posters have pointed out they are Irish American or whatever.

I know you could argue there are no Americans except the Native Americans (Indians as we used to call them ) but you don't hear Australians speak like that , or not that I hear anyway .

Is this a collective lack of National Identity or something.

Why don't people just say they are American , and if they are black and want to describe them selves as such say so.
It's them that are bringing their colour or race ( color ?? ) into it by mentioning they are African American.

Acacia

Davidth88 wrote: »

Why don't people just say they are American , and if they are black and want to describe them selves as such say so.
It's them that are bringing their colour or race ( color ?? ) into it by mentioning they are African American.

I'm sure some black Americans do just refer to themselves as 'Americans'. Others , perhaps, like to make a link between their heritage and themselves so maybe that's why they use the term 'African-American'. It could be a matter of pride- they were told for so long that they should be ashamed of their heritage, and this could be a way of showing that they are proud that they are of African descent.

I don't see how it could possibly offend white Africans though- the vast majority of African-Americans are black and , as another poster demonstrated, they use the term 'African' because their descendants were from Africa, but they might not know what country exactly.

A white African person could describe themselves as 'African-American' if they so wish, I would imagine, were they to move to the US.

Davidth88

I hate the way some people use PC as a catchall form of abuse

I have been careful not to abuse anyone, or any group of people here . If I have caused offence I apologise.

However I do know some people who find the term ' African American ' offensive , it came up a lot back in November for obvious reasons .

By the way I also ' hate ' the term ' Chair ' to denote a Chairman , or ' Inspection Cover ' to denote manhole.

Davidth88

I'm sure some black Americans do just refer to themselves as 'Americans'. Others , perhaps, like to make a link between their heritage and themselves so maybe that's why they use the term 'African-American'. It could be a matter of pride- they were told for so long that they should be ashamed of their heritage, and this could be a way of showing that they are proud that they are of African descent.

Good point , taken on board , thanks

Dudess

I can't stand the term "African-American" - it serves to further marginalise. How comes whites aren't referred to as "European-American"?

tallus wrote: »

So you think describing someone by their skin colour is normal ?
I would see that as racist.

I was watching something the other night and commented to my mate "the black guy is pretty darn hot" simply because the rest of the guys in the scene were white. If it was the reverse I would have said "the white guy is pretty darn hot". There's no agenda there.

jonsnow wrote: »

I hate the way some people use PC as a catchall form of abuse.

You and me both - it boggles my mind how ignorant it is. That said, I do find it rather dismaying that people are almost "afraid" to use the word "black" even if they'd have no problem using the word "white" in an equivalent situation.

Rev Hellfire

Calling the majority of black Americans 'African American' is a complete nonsense, what ever link they have with that continent is tenuous at best.
I'd be amazed if the majority of them could even point it out on a map.

I'd agree with dudess that removal of words from the dictionary is worrying, its the very definition of newsspeak.

WindSock

Dudess wrote: »

I can't stand the term "African-American" - it serves to further marginalise. How comes whites aren't referred to as "European-American"?

They do. Irish American, Italian American, etc. It was said earlier in the thread that it isn't Ugandan American because many African peoples roots are innaccessable for obvious reasons.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Calling the majority of black Americans 'African American' is a complete nonsense, what ever link they have with that continent is tenuous at best.
I'd be amazed if the majority of them could even point it out on a map.

Theres a fine example of a racist remark right there.

ynotdu

I use the word black to describe black skinned people all the time,just recently i was showing my 9 year old niece a video from youtube and she pulled me up saying "why say black?" she made me laugh for her bravery thinking I might be being racist,I said"well martin luther king was black in his skin color,you dont mind being called white do you?" she and her brother saw the logic of my argument and laughed!

one thing to remember is that white skinned people are in the great scheme of things by far the minority group on planet Earth!

until 1776 there was no Americans it is a new nation by some standards,only the native Americans(red injuns:) who believe they dont own the land,rather the land owns them!)long before global warming native Americans had a saying"walk gently on the land"beautiful i think.

If there never had been slavery their would be virtually no descendents of Africans in the us,nearly all black Americans are descended from slave traders who went to Africa and literally stole the good looking daughters and the strong looking sons from their broken hearted parents to sell to the ready white buyers to pick their cotton(not to mention what they done to the women:eek:

to add insult to injury the kidnapped slaves were forced to take the surname of their(owners)which is the reason the boxer Clay changed to Ali.
some famous black people have the same surname as me which to my deep shame means some ancestor of mine was a slaveowner:eek:

Barack describes himself as an American African,since his family background led him to the states via a route other than slavery.

Rev Hellfire

WindSock wrote: »

Theres a fine example of a racist remark right there.

If by racist you mean accurate, then I'm guilty as charged. Its well documented the poor level of geographical knowledge possessed by the average American.
Nor is it racist to highlight the fact that few 'African Americans' have any sort of meaningful relationship with the African continent.
But I guess I should be to ashamed to highlight the blatantly obvious.

WindSock

You said majority.

Rev Hellfire

And I still stand by it.
Among Americans at large geographical knowledge is poor, and due to economic disadvantages I'd imagine its even worse for blacks.

Davidth88

Among Americans at large geographical knowledge is poor, and due to economic disadvantages I'd imagine its even worse for blacks.

Actually in the true sense of the word you are being racist against Americans as a whole there .

You could have said that ' The American education system seems to be poor at teaching World Geography ' which I think is true.

Rev Hellfire

Davidth88 wrote: »

Actually in the true sense of the word you are being racist against Americans as a whole there .

You could have said that ' The American education system seems to be poor at teaching World Geography ' which I think is true.

I could have said that, but the end result of an american education system that is poor at geography is that Americans are poor at geography. The statement remains valid.

turgon

Davidth88 wrote: »

Actually in the true sense of the word you are being racist against Americans as a whole there.

Well if he had sources then it most certainly would not be racist. However it is generally held (rightly or wrongly) that a lot of Americans are pretty ignorant of what goes on outside the US.

As for the terming, well if the African Americans call themselves African American then I dont see what the problem is. A balance must be found between neo-strict political correctness and downright racism.

Davidth88

I could have said that, but the end result of an american education system that is poor at geography is that Americans are poor at geography. The statement remains valid.

At the end of the day , I didn't disagree with you . Just showing how stereotyping in this way could be made out to be racist.

Well if he had sources then it most certainly would not be racist. However it is generally held (rightly or wrongly) that a lot of Americans are pretty ignorant of what goes on outside the US.

True , I suppose if you could show a survey or something that shows this is true . However if it was just an off-the-cuff remark....

Anyway , this playing with words is getting off topic , my apologies

ynotdu

testing how to add attachments herehttps://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/218723/78035.jpg

Rev Hellfire

Davidth88 wrote: »

True , I suppose if you could show a survey or something that shows this is true . However if it was just an off-the-cuff remark....

There have been various reports on this, a simple neutral query of 'american geographic knowledge' reveals a motherlode on the topic.

I remember reading statistics ages ago in the national geographic on the subject, which illustrated just how poor the average Americans knowledge was. If I can locate it I'll gladly post them up.

I agree with turgon that it could be rephrased so as to not be offensive to those which it references, and by offensive I mean in anyway negative.

nitrogen

tallus wrote: »

So you think describing someone by their skin colour is normal ?
I would see that as racist.

You sound like you're just trolling.

If a store was robbed by a man in a suburb in LA, the cops will ask about his height and race.

ynotdu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge32xtm23rQ

wish i could post the video or a picture instead of just links,will work on it:)

listening to Barack o,bama,s inauguration speech,the thing i found saddest was nobody mentioned Rosa Parkes(Barrack could not as it was not a day for him to single out a Race or a creed)

She was the woman who refused to give up her seat on a bus for a white person(as was the segregation law at the time)she was so tired from working two jobs as well as rearing a family she basicly told them so shoot me! it led to a boycott of the bus service until the company backed down.
to me she is an unsung hero of the battle for equality in the us.

another version of the same lyrics but set to a diffrient song but with much more powerful images,
some may find short sections a bit soppy.is idealism dead? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uqNLnEzDLA&feature=related

WindSock

ynotdu wrote: »

listening to Barack o,bama,s inauguration speech,the thing i found saddest was nobody mentioned Rosa Parkes

OutKast did, and she was none too happy

turgon

ynotdu wrote: »

to me she is an unsung hero of the battle for equality in the us.

In fairness I would hardly describe her as "unsung"

metaoblivia

I think the term African American is fine. The US is a young nation in the scheme of things, and it's a land of immigrants for the most part. The terms Irish American, African American, Cuban American, to me aren't reflective of a national lack of identity. They're cultural terms, used to define whatever American subculture an individual feels they're part of, if any. You don't hear British-American used as much because most of the original settlers were of British descent. So that became the general American culture, and everyone else was Polish, Irish, Chinese, what have you. And these immigrants were usually segregated into neighborhoods among their own kind where they continued to practice traditions they brought with them from the Old World and passed them on to their children. They also faced discrimination based on their ethnicity and cultural heritage. It wasn't that long ago that the US elected its first president of Irish-Catholic descent, and that was scandalous for some people. Some tried to hide their ethnicity, but a lot of others just got angry and "owned" it, to put it in modern terms. And I think that's one of the reasons why you still see some Americans put so much emphasis on it today.

And as for why Americans do this and Australians don't, well... Americans aren't Australians. Sure, the US and Australia share some similarities, but ultimately they're two different countries with two very different histories. It doesn't do any good to compare them and say, "Well, the Americans do this, so why don't the Australians?" or vice versa.

And then some footnotes:
When asked for my ethnic heritage, I do usually tell people I'm European and Native American, because that's easier than saying Irish, British, German, Cherokee and Choctaw and possibly Italian and French as well.

And even though I am American and had the misfortunate to experience the American public education system, I can name and identify every country in the world, every capital city and every flag, including those pesky little island countries in Oceania and the Caribbean (I can even show you exactly where they are on a map; and I mean exactly). I don't know how I compare to the average American, but I do know that my geography skills eclipse that of most people, regardless of their nationality.

SeekUp

Davidth88 wrote: »

I personally hate the term 'African American ' to descibe people who are black in colour in the US.

. . .

What to other people feel about this , is it ' PC ' or something ?

I'm not a huge fan of it either -- not because it's PC, but because I think it's confusing race with nationality and they're separate things in my opinion.

*shrug*

Cannibal Ox

metaoblivia wrote:

The terms Irish American, African American, Cuban American, to me aren't reflective of a national lack of identity. They're cultural terms, used to define whatever American subculture an individual feels they're part of, if any.

+1

I think it's impossible to seperate "African American" from being black, in the sense that much of African American history was shaped by the very fact that African American's are black, but I don't think that African American literally means being a black American. I think its an identity, with a specific shared cultural heritage rather than just a signifier of skin colour.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Always thought Afro-American made more sense. Like Afro-Carribean.

ynotdu

turgon wrote: »

In fairness I would hardly describe her as "unsung"

turgon what happened to your quote from the grapes of wrath?I thought it was a great quote and was going to wiki the grapes of wrath.Litreture not my strong point tbh.there is no message saying you edited your post.

Did you edit it or was it removed by a mod?

HappyGirl1976

As an American, I've often questioned this so called "politically correct" way of speaking. Essentially, we are all Americans so why the need to say I'm XXX American or YYY American? It does not make sense. I mean would someone who is black and living in England say "I'm African English" or something stupid like that?? And it seems there are only certain groups that respond this way (I'm not putting them down, just making a statement). It is African American and Asian American that you hear most. Now if you truly came from Africa or Asia, then yes you are African American or Asian American. If you were born here, you are plain ole American.

It's funny how we Americans seem to distinguish ourselves based on our heritage, however that heritage usually is many generations back! Confusing right? Often someone will ask you "what nationality are you"... and at this point I'm truly a mutt. But you still feel the need to say "I'm Canadian French, Native American, English, a tad Irish..." Have I ever been to France, England, Ireland? Nope. So how can I say I "am" those things?? It just seems dumb. Think I'll start saying "I'm American" - that'll mess people up! haha :P

mateo

From personal experience the term African-American is used more commonly by white Americans than black Americans.

And I hate when people think calling someone black is racist!

rantyface

Davidth88 wrote: »

black in colour

Is a bit PC too...

But I agree. They're as African as the whites are European, and it would piss me off if they started using the term European American.

Porkpie

Caucasian people are referred to as 'white', yet generally speaking we don't have a problem with that. So what's the problem with black? Those who argue that the skin colour isn't that dark should realise that caucasians, too, are not that white. It's a practical way of differentiating between people of different colour, and is not in any way racist.

devereaux17

in america, white people are referred to as european-american, the only difference is like brazil, the black people came from the slave thread mainly from the west of africa so have no real idea where their ancestry came from. they are culturally african american.