Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Sparks

It's not out yet, this is just in anticipation of the Bill being published. I wanted to create the thread so everyone saw one place to comment on it. As soon as it's published, I'll come back and edit the original post with links or an attachment with the bill itself. I'll merge any other threads that get started on it into this one as well, just to keep it all in the one neat-ish place, and we're temporarily stickying it. Enjoy...

Okay, links time:
The main legislation page for the CJ(MP)B 2009, which has all the versions of the Bill on it.

The first debate on the bill in the Dail, part one.

The first debate on the bill in the Dail, part two.

The first debate on the bill in the Dail, part three.

The first debate on the bill in the Dail, part four (final part).

The Bill is now scheduled to go to the Dail Select Committee on Justice.

daveob007

Sparks wrote: »

It's not out yet, this is just in anticipation of the Bill being published. I wanted to create the thread so everyone saw one place to comment on it. As soon as it's published, I'll come back and edit the original post with links or an attachment with the bill itself. I'll merge any other threads that get started on it into this one as well, just to keep it all in the one neat-ish place, and we're temporarily stickying it. Enjoy...

Thanks for that, its better to place a single thread dedicated to that issue.
there are comments all over the place in other threads and this can be a bit confusing trying to find all the comments.
whats the delay,we are all waiting to hear if we are to be penalised for owning certain types of guns or not????

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

whats the delay

Don't know dave - the scheduled date was today, but there's been nothing all day on it. There have been new publications from the DoJ allright, but nothing to do with the Misc Bill or firearms legislation in general. We're all just waiting about...

bunny shooter

Checked ssai site etc no news

foxhunter

bunny shooter wrote: »

Checked ssai site etc no news

There going to sneak it out when everyone is asleep tonight and then shut the doors and wait for the emails and phones to start.:D

chem

Phoned DoJ today, and was told, that they dont know when its to be released

Some time this week, was what I was told:rolleyes:

Sparks

Well, there's only two sitting days for the Dail this week, today and tomorrow...

rrpc

Been out most of the day, rang the DoJ and was told to watch their website; not easy to do from a moving vehicle. :mad:

But when I got back to base, discover that there's nothing to watch anyway.

This bill seems destined to be overshadowed by something bigger and of much more interest to the media. Last time it was the budget and now it's the junior ministerial reshuffle.

So now we're guessing again as to when we'll see the damn thing

Sparks

Just heard in from the FCP, the bill was approved, but publication of the bill is delayed until next week so some details can be sorted out with the AGs office.

From the SSAI's website:

Please see below from the Department of Justice issued today (22nd April)

Dear members of the FCP,

The Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009 was approved by Government today

There are still some details to be ironed out between ourselves and the AG so the Bill will not be published until next week.

G17

rrpc wrote: »

rang the DoJ and was told to watch their website;

My F5 button needs replacing...................:D

chem

Sparks wrote: »

Just heard in from the FCP, the bill was approved, but publication of the bill is delayed until next week so some details can be sorted out with the AGs office.

From the SSAI's website:

Anyone know anyone who can leek it to us? Seems all the rage these days with government bodies:D

ancienthunter

mmmm....does'nt sound like democracy to me. I thought everything is suppose to be transparent and clear and held in an open forum with the citizens of Ireland and their representives.

Sparks

Do you see any other laws offically published before they're laid before the Dail for open debate?

ancienthunter

Again I'd like to thank you sparks, yes you are correct. Fundamentaly the system is flawed. Thank you

Sparks

Actually AH, what I was trying to say is that the openness happens in the Dail, not in the Department. None of the other TDs have to conduct their business openly with private members bills before laying them before the Dail and neither do Ministers. It's not what I'd like, but at least it's symmetrical - and it's following the constitution.

ancienthunter

How are our representives suppose to represent if we have no knowledge of whats impeding. Iam not correct in saying nobody has a clue other than a small elite group

Sparks

Our representatives (as in TDs) represent once the bill is announced (look up how a bill becomes an act).
Our representatives (as in the FCP) do not have primacy over Dail Eireann (look up the constitution).

Rovi

There's a rather excellent summary of the process by which a Bill makes its way though the system to eventually become law in the Downloads section of the SSAI website. It should be attached here.

ancienthunter

ok, I see. But the bill has already being passed? But we don't know what it is.....??? Iam confused.

Rovi

ancienthunter wrote: »

ok, I see. But the bill has already being passed? But we don't know what it is.....??? Iam confused.

No, the Bill was "approved by Government" yesterday (Wednesday 22nd April 2009). This means that the Government (Fianna Fail + sundry others) have given their approval for the Bill to be published and presented to the entire Dáil; this publication and presentation to the Dáil is what constitutes 'First Stage' in the above attached guide.

G17

Don't see it on order of business today either?

Rovi

G17 wrote: »

Don't see it on order of business today either?

I wouldn't be expecting it today (or tomorrow).

As the DOJ&LR statement said:

There are still some details to be ironed out between ourselves and the AG so the Bill will not be published until next week.

It'll (allegedly) appear on the Order of Business 'next week'.

Exactly when 'next week', no-one knows yet; at least, no-one outside the DOJ&LR.

daveob007

Maybe if someone sends a big fat brown envolope to the ff party we might get a leak.
maybe one of the sacked junior ministers could do with the money.
it might be the criminal justice misc bill 2010 who knows

Breachloader

Its been a week now and still no sign, we can only hope the corrections they are making are for our benefit...

Any ideas what to expact folks? Reloading/Pistols/Full bore Rifles etc. ???

chem

Rang DoJ press office today. Was told it will be out in May! No date givin. This Friday would be nice:D

packas

chem wrote: »

Rang DoJ press office today. Was told it will be out in May! No date givin. This Friday would be nice:D

May 2009, 2010 or 2011???

Ned Muldhoon

This taken from speech by Mr. Ahern published on the DOJELR website:

"These measures are in addition to work already underway in further tightening the legislative provisions relating to guns and knives and similar weapons. A de facto handgun ban is already in force"

milkerman

The wait for the much vaunted legislation goes on. In the vacuum created by press releases, rumours and 4 tonnes of horse-****e my local Superintendant has stopped issuing licences for handguns and is now sitting on the applications. All the Dept do is say the Bill will be published on a given day - and then nothing happens.
What in the name of Jaysus is going on?

It wasn't me!

Nobody knows. It was due out in February and it wasn't bloody well ready then either. Just remember, after three months wait, you're deemed refused and properly notified, so request a reason for your refusal in writing. That way you have it should you decide to pursue it in any way.

Ned Muldhoon

nothing scheduled in the dail for this week either. Looks like it's a waiting game. powers that be are probably hoping we all get disillusioned and pack in pistol shooting of our own accord!

Sparks

I keep hearing "almost there", "nearly there", "very soon" and so on - I get the feeling that whatever's holding it up isn't in the DoJ but in the general Oireachtas red tape. And I agree, it's bloody fustrating.

Sparks

Ned Muldhoon wrote: »

nothing scheduled in the dail for this week either. Looks like it's a waiting game. powers that be are probably hoping we all get disillusioned and pack in pistol shooting of our own accord!

Ned, the Order Papers for the Dail aren't published yet (they're generally not published until late the night before).


Also folks, don't forget that once this gets published, that's only the first step in a long line. There's the first stage in the Dail (that's what we're waiting on here), where it's just read out. Then there's the committee stage, then the second stage in the Dail, then it goes to the Seanad where it's read, then goes to the Seanad Committee, then back to the Seanad, then back to the Dail and finally voted on to become law; at any point along the way, it can be massively altered (remember the Criminal Justice Bill 2004? It had more amendments in Committee stage than it had original text, by a factor of two or three!).

bigred

So Sparks, give us a rough guess.. From the day the bill is published, how long before it's enacted/ before we stop getting the run-around from all and sundry.
Obviously, I'd like to be able to rock into the station the day the bill is announced and apply, but are we looking at another few months for it all to become legal? I wouldn't have thought there was legal jurisdiction to stop this based on a statement by a minister (but clearly they think there is).

Grizzly 45

Or...Is there a possibility that they will just shovel it thru with this proposed new legislation that is supposed to be discussed tomrrow in the Dail,Re the "gang culture?" Whats the betting there will be a "full house" in the Dail tomrrow??:rolleyes:

Sparks

@bigred Rough guess? If they rushed it, pushed all-out, cut every corner and guillotined it? 2, maybe 3 months. More likely, they'll try to get it done before August 1 and will fail. Hell, maybe there'll even be an election before then. That might not stop the Bill, but it might stop it ever being commenced (there are more than a few bills that were passed into Acts but never commenced like that).

@Grizzly - that'd be illegal. The Dail can't just shovel stuff about like that.

Grizzly 45

Thats at least somthing then I suppose,that it cant ride in on another bills coat tail.:cool:

chem

So whats the story, with the de facto ban in force? Is that legal? The minister is telling every super not to issue pistol licence, without any law in place:eek:

Somthing smells, said the blindman, to the fishmunger.

bigred

chem wrote: »

So whats the story, with the de facto ban in force? Is that legal? The minister is telling every super not to issue pistol licence, without any law in place:eek:

Somthing smells, said the blindman, to the fishmunger.

Indeed Chem. I'm not sure "cos Dermo told me not to" counts as a refusal reason. I've already missed a heap of the smallbore pistol matches this year and it looks like this season's a write-off at this stage given the lack of progress :mad:

chem

bigred wrote: »

Indeed Chem. I'm not sure "cos Dermo told me not to" counts as a refusal reason. I've already missed a heap of the smallbore pistol matches this year and it looks like this season's a write-off at this stage given the lack of progress :mad:

Same as bigred. Whats the point in putting a law in writing if its already in place:mad: Where are the shooting bodies on this one? And how do you spell BANNANA REPUBLIC

It wasn't me!

chem wrote: »

Same as bigred. Whats the point in putting a law in writing if its already in place:mad: Where are the shooting bodies on this one? And how do you spell BANNANA REPUBLIC

Shooting bodies can't do diddly squat until we see the legislation, and rest assured, we want to see it and are asking when we're going to see it, but we're getting fobbed off the same as everyone else. There is no special treatment for us and you'll see it as soon as we do.

Sparks

chem wrote: »

So whats the story, with the de facto ban in force? Is that legal? The minister is telling every super not to issue pistol licence, without any law in place:eek:

No, he's not.

1. The Minister cannot legally tell a Super to not issue a licence. Neither can anyone else. That's what persona designata means.
2. The letters we keep hearing of are not from the Minister to the Supers ordering them not to issue; they're from the Commissioner to the Supers telling them to advise new applicants of the Minister's speechifying in November, nothing more.
3. The "de facto" ban is the Minister's way of saying that if you get a licence between November and the commencement of the ban in the Misc.Bill, then that licence can be taken away from you. How exactly he plans to do that I don't know. There are ways to do it alright, under existing legislation.

Sparks

Order of business for tomorrow is out, no mention of the Misc.Bill.

chem

Sparks wrote: »

No, he's not.

1. The Minister cannot legally tell a Super to not issue a licence. Neither can anyone else. That's what persona designata means.
2. The letters we keep hearing of are not from the Minister to the Supers ordering them not to issue; they're from the Commissioner to the Supers telling them to advise new applicants of the Minister's speechifying in November, nothing more.
3. The "de facto" ban is the Minister's way of saying that if you get a licence between November and the commencement of the ban in the Misc.Bill, then that licence can be taken away from you. How exactly he plans to do that I don't know. There are ways to do it alright, under existing legislation.

Sparks my super told me he was not allowed process any more pistol licences. And has resieved several "reminding emails" about this.

Anyone else here come up against this? A Poll maybe?

Sparks

chem wrote: »

Sparks my super told me he was not allowed process any more pistol licences. And has resieved several "reminding emails" about this.

I'm not saying he hasn't said that to you Chem. What I'm saying is that the Minister's staff are flat-out saying that no such letters have been sent or would be sent (the Minister doesn't get to direct the operations of the Gardai in that manner on any topic) and that the Supreme Court have stated flat out that noone can give such directions to the Superintendents. It's just plain illegal to do either.

If your Super is telling you otherwise, then he's sorely mistaken and a call to the Firearms Policy Unit by your NGB is called for.

chem

Can you put up a poll please sparks? Just to see if anyone else here has had this problem.

I just like to take things with a pinch of salt, when it comes to how this government govern.

Sparks

chem wrote: »

Can you put up a poll please sparks? Just to see if anyone else here has had this problem.

Done.

Half-cocked

chem wrote: »

And how do you spell BANNANA REPUBLIC

With only 2 'N's. I can never resist the chance to be pedantic.........

dresden8

Sparks wrote: »

@Grizzly - that'd be illegal. The Dail can't just shovel stuff about like that.

Yes they very much can. Anybody remember the ban on magic mushrooms? Blink and you'd have missed it.

chem

Half-cocked wrote: »

With only 2 'N's. I can never resist the chance to be pedantic.........

Sorry private joke BAN nana republic :D

Sparks

dresden8 wrote: »

Yes they very much can. Anybody remember the ban on magic mushrooms? Blink and you'd have missed it.

No, they can't - they can rush stuff through with emergency sittings yes, but they can't just take the contents of one bill and drop it into another bill bypassing parliamentary procedure. If they did, the Act could be challenged on constitutional grounds successfully by anyone.

bunny shooter

Don't think my current one has granted ANY at all even before latest fiasco.

BUT he has made it very difficult to get an amendment sorted

Can't vote in current poll as I can't honestly answer either option