Juniors treated badly by club?

Pulsar Eagle

The weekend just gone was the clubs second montly medal of the year which happened to be a one two for two of the juniors of the club. The next day when the results where poeted up neither of the names where to be seen. When an explanation was asked for one of the senior committe members says "new rule the juniors where not allowed to place in the prizes". Can they do this mid-way through a competition?? Also a junior had come second or third to the best of my knowledge in the first medal of the year and still recieved their prize.

Just wondering what you all think of this situation???

seven-iron

im a junior still. i think its fair.

most members have paid thousands and thousands for their right to compete in the big club comps. its fair that juniors who play all summer and have all that time troughout the year are not allowed win the majors (medals, capt's prize etc.). look at it from a full members point of view.

as for them changing their minds mid comp.... ha fair play 2 them i say

whatawaster

seven-iron wrote: »

fcuk ya's is I what say
im a junior still. i think its fair.

most members have paid thousands and thousands for their right to compete in the big club comps. its fair that juniors who play all summer and have all that time troughout the year are not allowed win the majors (medals, capt's prize etc.). look at it from a full members point of view.

as for them changing their minds mid comp.... ha fair play 2 them i say

to be honest i find that attitude appalling. Juniors are the future of the club and if they are good enough to win prizes then it's good for the future of the club.
Pure begrudgery is all it is. Nobody joins a golf club to win prizes. If you do there is something wrong with you.

seven-iron

ooohh, sorry you find it appalling.

DonkeyPokerTour

whatawaster wrote: »

to be honest i find that attitude appalling. Juniors are the future of the club and if they are good enough to win prizes then it's good for the future of the club.
Pure begrudgery is all it is. Nobody joins a golf club to win prizes. If you do there is something wrong with you.

I agree with you within reason. I think there should be some sort of handicap limit before you can play in adult competitions. When I was a junior we were all given 36 starting out. It was not uncommon to see a score of 50points in junior golf in my club. Hence they have "student" member ship which is available to those over 18 and some under 18 who have a low handicap. You were only allowed play in adult comps if you were a student or adult member.

If the people who finished 1-2 were off a reasonable handicap (less than 24) then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Pulsar Eagle

The juniors in question play off 17 and 12.

OilBeefHooked2

If the "Juniors" in question have a full handicap then there is absolutely no reason (except small minded begrudery) why they should not be allowed play all club competitions, not only should they be allowed but they should be actively encouraged to do so.

PhilipMarlowe

I'd agree that once they have a full handicap they should be allowed play (and win) most of the competitions. Maybe not the Captains as they should have their own Junior version of that.
seven-iron warned and is taking a break for a little while from here to grow up.

jampotjim

When I was a junior our club use to do things like this and still to this day I think it is wrong and is so short sighted..

The club I was with as a kid lost 8 players of a handicap 6 and lower to bigger clubs or they gave up after stupid decisions like getting suspended for 2 weeks for teeing off at 4.15pm in the summer as the rule was 4pm for latest tee time..

soundsham

tough break imo......if you paid in your eligable to win i'd say

think juniors are encouraged to play at my place once they are in secondary school and lower than 12(maybe 14),they can win any prize bar 1st in captains & pres

ShriekingSheet

I actually disagree with most here. I'll explain my reasons below but to the Opening Poster I would say that yes, this is extremely poor treatment of juniors by the club - not because they weren't allowed to win, but because the comittee clearly changed (or made up) a rule after the scores came in to deny them a prize.

If the rule had have been in place before-hand, I would not call it poor treatment. Despite the fact that I'm beginning just my second year of full membership, and the vast majority of my golf has been as a junior, and I have also been denied many prizes over the years, I fully agree that such a rule should be in place. Obviously, it was less frustrating for me as I knew teeing it up on the first hole that I could not win.


Anyway, leaving the money argument aside (full fee versus junior fee) consider this. Allow me some generalisation here but Juniors, by definition, have extensive holiday breaks from school/college. When I was a kid, even off low single figures I knew there was little chance the working men golfers with families could keep up with me given the time and effort I could spend on my game. From handicaps 20 down to about 8 I always felt extremely comfortable and in truth, frustrated that my handicap was not lower. And it did get lower, with some silly points tallies involved. In short, I think it's fair to say that many junior golfers who become competitive develop quickly and sail down the handicaps.

As you can see, none of the above is available to the common ordinary memeber. It's fair to say that it takes time for a handicap to balance out and I thought a good example was the junior winner of the (men's) Junior Scratch Cup in Headfort last year. "I shot 73 in round 2- could have shot 71 but I didn't want to get cut more".

Another relevent example is the PGA Assistants tournaments. To qualify, you have to have confirmed to be working a minimum of 30 hours per week. They specifically legislate so that guys who have limitless time to dedicate to golf cannot be let loose on guys who have working responsibilty.

I won a Medal last year, in my first year as a full memeber. A Junior beat me by a shot. Despite my above views, it didnt stop me being absolutely mortified to be honest. I met him on the off chance the following week. I was caught off gaurd and didn't know what to say but ended up just smiling and blurted out "yeah it's a sh*t one, I won a stack of them I couldn't claim too". Felt very awkward after but I guess what more could I say...

Anyway, though there's no real hard points above, I think there's enough to show why I think what I do. I have to admit, I never found it hard to understand as a teenager. We let Juniors win Class 1 or the Gross so it's not like they get nothing.

Of course, having the rule firmly in place rather than what happened in the OP's scenario is crucial. But I'd be interested to see if people (of all ages) agree or disagree with me.

Kevinmarkham

If a Junior is allowed to play in a competition then he/she should be entitled to win and claim the prize. As people have pointed out, it seems to happen alot and I think it's wrong and stupid to say 'yes, you won, but that doesn't count. Now go away and leave me alone you silly boy'. Or at least that's what the Junior is going to hear. They play well and get booted out of the prizes. I know that would put me off playing golf when there are so many other sports vying for my attention.

There are Councils and Committees who seem to manage the entire day-to-day operation of most clubs - if they can't foresee that a Junior might win a 'major' competition and prepare for such an eventuality then they clearly don't appreciate the value of Juniors to the club.

K
http://golfcoursesireland.blogspot.com/

gorfield

As a golfer that has played in mens comps fully since i was 9yrs old ive seen some extreme cases of abuse of power in clubs.

One club i know had a rule where only a son or daughter of an existing member was allowed join. At this time there was a young lad i knew well trying to join a club, i thought he might be one for the future at the time, i approached the club looking for a special case as his parents were non golfers, obviously it was laughed at! This young man is now an irish international and heading for big things,how a club have cost themselves the chance of being part of a great players career because of a disgusting bunch of committee members. Most of the sons and daughters that got in will never play golf...........I see it in my home club at the moment....Im managing a team this year and having looked through the archives it seems that a junior has NEVER represented the club at senior level!!!!! A silent discrimination if i ever seen it. I guarantee that my bruen team will have at least 3 juniors on it, one is just 13 but playing off 9........I will probably be hung but for a club that has never been to the bruen finals i think the kids are worth a shot.

My rant for the day.

Oh also---Maybe Rory Mcilroy should be stripped of all his amateur championship wins as he was only 15 16 or 17 when he won them??? I think not, as we all basque in his success think of the little guy trying to be the next rory...he might surprize you!

Kevinmarkham

[quote=gorfield;[URL="javascript:void(0)"]59933395[/URL]]As a golfer that has played in mens comps fully since i was 9yrs old ive seen some extreme cases of abuse of power in clubs.

One club i know had a rule where only a son or daughter of an existing member was allowed join. At this time there was a young lad i knew well trying to join a club, i thought he might be one for the future at the time, i approached the club looking for a special case as his parents were non golfers, obviously it was laughed at! This young man is now an irish international and heading for big things,how a club have cost themselves the chance of being part of a great players career because of a disgusting bunch of committee members. Most of the sons and daughters that got in will never play golf...........I see it in my home club at the moment....Im managing a team this year and having looked through the archives it seems that a junior has NEVER represented the club at senior level!!!!! A silent discrimination if i ever seen it. I guarantee that my bruen team will have at least 3 juniors on it, one is just 13 but playing off 9........I will probably be hung but for a club that has never been to the bruen finals i think the kids are worth a shot.

My rant for the day.

Oh also---Maybe Rory Mcilroy should be stripped of all his amateur championship wins as he was only 15 16 or 17 when he won them??? I think not, as we all basque in his success think of the little guy trying to be the next rory...he might surprize you![/quote]


As rants go - that's a damn good one.

thegen

gorfield wrote: »

As a golfer that has played in mens comps fully since i was 9yrs old ive seen some extreme cases of abuse of power in clubs.

One club i know had a rule where only a son or daughter of an existing member was allowed join. At this time there was a young lad i knew well trying to join a club, i thought he might be one for the future at the time, i approached the club looking for a special case as his parents were non golfers, obviously it was laughed at! This young man is now an irish international and heading for big things,how a club have cost themselves the chance of being part of a great players career because of a disgusting bunch of committee members. Most of the sons and daughters that got in will never play golf...........I see it in my home club at the moment....Im managing a team this year and having looked through the archives it seems that a junior has NEVER represented the club at senior level!!!!! A silent discrimination if i ever seen it. I guarantee that my bruen team will have at least 3 juniors on it, one is just 13 but playing off 9........I will probably be hung but for a club that has never been to the bruen finals i think the kids are worth a shot.

My rant for the day.

Oh also---Maybe Rory Mcilroy should be stripped of all his amateur championship wins as he was only 15 16 or 17 when he won them??? I think not, as we all basque in his success think of the little guy trying to be the next rory...he might surprize you!

Gorfield,I have to agree with you.

I managed our Barton Cup team last year and put out 4 juniors in it. They all performed very well for the club. I did have a few people express their thoughts on juniors playing in inter clubs but most were second hand as none of them approached me.

My advice is put the team you want out,after all you are the manager.

I am a delighted to hear you will be blooding some young lads, it will stand to them and the club going forward.

Hobart

I agree with both the OP's premise and the majority of views expressed here. I think the "Juniors have more time to practice" argument is a weak one, as some golfers will always have an advantage over another, be that in equipment, time to practice, availability of pro coaching etc...

Where would the line be drawn? I also think that there is a certain element of "snobbery" in some clubs that come up with these rulings. I'm actually not sure of the position in my own place in this regard, but I know, for example, that 2 Juniors cannot play in a comp without a senior player being on the same slot with them (could be an insurance requirement, I dunno?).

I was never a Junior player, so I have never experienced these issues, but I can understand your uncomfortableness SS with the medal win, as in truth, the best golfer on that day did not get the prize, that's just unfair on everybody, you included.

ShriekingSheet

Hobart wrote: »

...the best golfer on that day did not get the prize...

Lads, the best golfer on the day hardly ever gets the prize. Golf has handicaps. Junior golfers, as has been said here already, are inclined to shoot all sorts of scores in stableford competition. I'm sure anyone here who got into golf competitively as a junior has shot 45 points + a few times on the way down. We've all seen 49 and 50 points turned in. I'd like to see some of you stick to your opinion of "let the he with most points win" if you played out of your skin to shoot 42 points (a score that would win nearly every week in most clubs), only to be beaten by someone with 49 points.

Pushing for this idea of allowing juniors to win top prizes is short-sighted IMO. I can see how those of you in clubs with very few competitive juniors can accept the odd prize being picked off by a talented young gun, but I'll put this to you...

In my old club, we had a gang of roughly 15 kids playing very regularly. We used to tear lumps out of each other (in a fun, sporting way ) to beat each other, get lower etc. We all started at around 18-20 and were between 3 and 12 still while we were teen-agers. The club policy at the time was to have a seperate Junior Prize along side each men's competition. If instead, we were allowed to win the men's prize, there would have been about 4 full-member winners over the course of a 2 year period. You literally needed 41/42 to win the men's prize and 44/45 to win the boys'.

But alongside the above, we young 'uns played Barton Cup, Junior Cup, Metro Cup - you name it. We played Intermediate, Junior and Senior Scratch Cups. We travelled to Boys' and Youths' Championships, at all of which you'll notice, the best golfer does actually win.

So while not every club has the luxury of enough juniors to form a seperate little competiton, I think offering Class 1 or the Gross prize to be a sufficient compromise. I was happy with that as a 16 year old, and I'm happy with that as a 26 year old.

Mr check raise

I agree with the OP on this one. i also have experience of this. I m a student member and won a competition a couple of weeks ago. The members paid 8 euro to play whlie i paid 4. the guy who came 2nd got a lovely ping bag i got a 30 quid voucher for the "students prize". this was pretty annoying.

It wsasnt like i had a rediculous handicap either. playin off 13 but playin a lot recently.

Hobart

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Lads, the best golfer on the day hardly ever gets the prize. Golf has handicaps. Junior golfers, as has been said here already, are inclined to shoot all sorts of scores in stableford competition. I'm sure anyone here who got into golf competitively as a junior has shot 45 points + a few times on the way down. We've all seen 49 and 50 points turned in. I'd like to see some of you stick to your opinion of "let the he with most points win" if you played out of your skin to shoot 42 points (a score that would win nearly every week in most clubs), only to be beaten by someone with 49 points.

But surely that's the fault of the handicapping committee as opposed to anything to do with one's status in the club? If it is not, what is it? In my own experience the ability to score 42+ points was never the sole preserve of the junior golfer.

Pushing for this idea of allowing juniors to win top prizes is short-sighted IMO. I can see how those of you in clubs with very few competitive juniors can accept the odd prize being picked off by a talented young gun, but I'll put this to you...

In my old club, we had a gang of roughly 15 kids playing very regularly. We used to tear lumps out of each other (in a fun, sporting way ) to beat each other, get lower etc. We all started at around 18-20 and were between 3 and 12 still while we were teen-agers. The club policy at the time was to have a seperate Junior Prize along side each men's competition. If instead, we were allowed to win the men's prize, there would have been about 4 full-member winners over the course of a 2 year period. You literally needed 41/42 to win the men's prize and 44/45 to win the boys'.

Again if a junior is good enough to score 44/45 or a senior member is good enough to be putting in scores like that, the handicapper will catch them up quite quickly. I fail to see how juniors have more of an edge in this regard, than any other competitive golfer. Maybe I'm missing your point?

OilBeefHooked2

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Lads, the best golfer on the day hardly ever gets the prize. Golf has handicaps. Junior golfers, as has been said here already, are inclined to shoot all sorts of scores in stableford competition. I'm sure anyone here who got into golf competitively as a junior has shot 45 points + a few times on the way down. We've all seen 49 and 50 points turned in. I'd like to see some of you stick to your opinion of "let the he with most points win" if you played out of your skin to shoot 42 points (a score that would win nearly every week in most clubs), only to be beaten by someone with 49 points.

Pushing for this idea of allowing juniors to win top prizes is short-sighted IMO. I can see how those of you in clubs with very few competitive juniors can accept the odd prize being picked off by a talented young gun, but I'll put this to you...

In my old club, we had a gang of roughly 15 kids playing very regularly. We used to tear lumps out of each other (in a fun, sporting way ) to beat each other, get lower etc. We all started at around 18-20 and were between 3 and 12 still while we were teen-agers. The club policy at the time was to have a seperate Junior Prize along side each men's competition. If instead, we were allowed to win the men's prize, there would have been about 4 full-member winners over the course of a 2 year period. You literally needed 41/42 to win the men's prize and 44/45 to win the boys'.

But alongside the above, we young 'uns played Barton Cup, Junior Cup, Metro Cup - you name it. We played Intermediate, Junior and Senior Scratch Cups. We travelled to Boys' and Youths' Championships, at all of which you'll notice, the best golfer does actually win.

So while not every club has the luxury of enough juniors to form a seperate little competiton, I think offering Class 1 or the Gross prize to be a sufficient compromise. I was happy with that as a 16 year old, and I'm happy with that as a 26 year old.

Another classic foot and mouth moment from the great sheet.
As for the other waffle like zomg where to begin.

neckedit

This issue, is not a new problem as you are all aware, but its a problem that is going on in the majority of clubs up and down the country, and in my experience it boils down to jealousy and small minded people on comittees, who say they have the interest of the club in mind while really they have there own vested intrest in winning a piece of crystal or making it easier for one of thier cronnies winning it! I've been on the recieving end of some bad calls through out my time playing, even to the point where my club tried to stop me playing for the county( when the county series used to be on......kinda showing my age now!!!) all because I was a young member who had ample time to play and practice, as I said to them, and I'm sure some of the young lads and ladies on this forum will agree with me, I choose to play this game, I choose to practice hard, I choose to play 36 holes a day in my free time, to try and better myself at this game, I could of been out with my non ngolfing buddies hanging round the streets and getting up to some serious badness! but I made the choice to play and try and better myself! This is the chance, that golf affords young people today! And small minded idiots in clubs can't see this, they can't see that golf is a sport that developes young people in so many positive ways, and all they really give a damn about is themselves or thier buddy getting denied a lump of useless cyrstal or a voucher worth €30!! they can't see the long term damage actions like this have on the game we all love and hate in one breath!! The amount of young people who leave the game down to actions like this is very harmfull and we don't know how many Harington's or Rory's we have let slip through our hands because of these actions!
Sorry to go off on one,,,,,but in short, if ya tee it up you should be allowed take it home.:p

Berti Vogts

neckedit wrote: »

This issue, is not a new problem as you are all aware, but its a problem that is going on in the majority of clubs up and down the country, and in my experience it boils down to jealousy and small minded people on comittees, who say they have the interest of the club in mind while really they have there own vested intrest in winning a piece of crystal or making it easier for one of thier cronnies winning it! I've been on the recieving end of some bad calls through out my time playing, even to the point where my club tried to stop me playing for the county( when the county series used to be on......kinda showing my age now!!!) all because I was a young member who had ample time to play and practice, as I said to them, and I'm sure some of the young lads and ladies on this forum will agree with me, I choose to play this game, I choose to practice hard, I choose to play 36 holes a day in my free time, to try and better myself at this game, I could of been out with my non ngolfing buddies hanging round the streets and getting up to some serious badness! but I made the choice to play and try and better myself! This is the chance, that golf affords young people today! And small minded idiots in clubs can't see this, they can't see that golf is a sport that developes young people in so many positive ways, and all they really give a damn about is themselves or thier buddy getting denied a lump of useless cyrstal or a voucher worth €30!! they can't see the long term damage actions like this have on the game we all love and hate in one breath!! The amount of young people who leave the game down to actions like this is very harmfull and we don't know how many Harington's or Rory's we have let slip through our hands because of these actions!
Sorry to go off on one,,,,,but in short, if ya tee it up you should be allowed take it home.:p

Long term damage? Bit of an exaggeration if you don't mind me saying so. The reality up and down the country is that it is often the kids of the committee members who are being denied first prize so I don't think it's down to cronyism.

How many Harringtons have we lost because of this type of decision? Almost certainly zero.

Where there is a strong junior contingent in a golf club who have the entire summer off to play golf, it is hardly surprising that a committee will ensure that the adult members are not alienated due to juniors winning every week! He who pays the piper calls the tune.

neckedit

Possibilities wrote: »

Long term damage? Bit of an exaggeration if you don't mind me saying so. The reality up and down the country is that it is often the kids of the committee members who are being denied first prize so I don't think it's down to cronyism.

I do mind, I have been around golf all my life, starting at a very young age, and I've known many young players quit the game due to on going examples of cronyism! As for the kids of Committee (thanks for showng me how to spell that correctly as a side) being denied prizes! I don't think your dealing with reality, if you don't mind me saying so.

How many Harringtons have we lost because of this type of decision? Almost certainly zero.

how can you say this?? you don't know how many have been turned of this game because of out right snobbery and cronyism!

Where there is a strong junior contingent in a golf club who have the entire summer off to play golf, it is hardly surprising that a committee will ensure that the adult members are not alienated due to juniors winning every week! He who pays the piper calls the tune.

And in this case, if a junior pays his compition fees as the adult member did, and then is told after the fact he was not eligible to win the prize!! I believe the junior paid the piper, but he changed his tune!

Butterz

My club had an emergency vote on this because some old people were complaining so much.
They were voting to not allow ANY juveniles play in ANY events other than juvenile events.
Luckily it didnt pass.
And not long after a 12 year old won the club championship and a 17 year old won the gold medal.:p karma?
Dont worry they were playing off 5 and 8 respectively.

Not allowed play win top 3 prizes in capt/ladycapt/pres prize or in hamper events:(

PhilipMarlowe

david-k wrote: »

Another classic foot and mouth moment from the great sheet.
As for the other waffle like zomg where to begin.

Relax with the attitude.
What he meant when he said that best golfer rarely wins is obvious. The best golfer on the day has the lowest gross score (certainly my opinion too).

ShriekingSheet

Hobart wrote: »

In my own experience the ability to score 42+ points was never the sole preserve of the junior golfer
Again if a junior is good enough to score 44/45 or a senior member is good enough to be putting in scores like that, the handicapper will catch them up quite quickly. I fail to see how juniors have more of an edge in this regard, than any other competitive golfer. Maybe I'm missing your point?

Okay, well I was looking for a little bit of leeway from you here because it isn't a fact. It's just my experience that ridiculous scores of close to 50 points are the sole preserve of junior golfers. I have never seen a full member shoot better than 45. The all-time nett record in my current club is 64 which is 8 better than h'cap and would be 44 points. We don't have lots of juniors but we're building our contingent through encouraging new members, free lessons and increased playing rights. I played with one lad over the winter who equalled the above score, off a h'cap of 8 who had 2 bogeys and 2 birdies, shooting level par. So this record won't last long. Anyway, my point being I think these scores are almost unique to fast-developing juniors. It's purely my own perception so if you disagree, that's fine, but we can't debate it further.

Hobart wrote: »

But surely that's the fault of the handicapping committee as opposed to anything to do with one's status in the club? If it is not, what is it?

See, this is a key point. Personally, I don't think the h'cap comittee can be blamed. I just don't think the system in place is equipped to deal with a kid who takes up the game with enthusiasm and talent and improves very quickly. You can't butcher a kid on General Play as soon as he looks set to shoot a score. You can't give him/her a starting handicap of 12 because you'll put them off. IMO starting off at 20 or higher and shooting a mad couple of scores to begin with (beating your dad and all the men!) is a great starting experience for any young golfer getting into the game. But I just don't agree with handing them first prize in a Medal for it. Handicaps are designed for someone of static or slowly changing ability. Sure, it's a flaw, but I don't see a huge problem with letting juniors play in all men's competitions, give them a good prize (Class 1 or Gross) and let their handicaps become regulated over time.

I really don't like the mention of "status in the club". We all know (too well) how some people join golf clubs solely for the whole status/politics of it, and these guys frequently resent juniors in general. I've been on the receiving end of it myself. But I'm purely debating on the basis of golf and golf scores here.

neckedit wrote: »

This issue, is not a new problem as you are all aware, but its a problem that is going on in the majority of clubs up and down the country, and in my experience it boils down to jealousy and small minded people on comittees, who say they have the interest of the club in mind while really they have there own vested intrest in winning a piece of crystal or making it easier for one of thier cronnies winning it! I've been on the recieving end of some bad calls through out my time playing, even to the point where my club tried to stop me playing for the county( when the county series used to be on......kinda showing my age now!!!) all because I was a young member who had ample time to play and practice, as I said to them, and I'm sure some of the young lads and ladies on this forum will agree with me, I choose to play this game, I choose to practice hard, I choose to play 36 holes a day in my free time, to try and better myself at this game, I could of been out with my non ngolfing buddies hanging round the streets and getting up to some serious badness! but I made the choice to play and try and better myself! This is the chance, that golf affords young people today! And small minded idiots in clubs can't see this, they can't see that golf is a sport that developes young people in so many positive ways, and all they really give a damn about is themselves or thier buddy getting denied a lump of useless cyrstal or a voucher worth €30!! they can't see the long term damage actions like this have on the game we all love and hate in one breath!! The amount of young people who leave the game down to actions like this is very harmfull and we don't know how many Harington's or Rory's we have let slip through our hands because of these actions!
Sorry to go off on one,,,,,but in short, if ya tee it up you should be allowed take it home.:p

Neckedit, I want to just seperate out some of the above. As juniors, many of us have been the victim of small minded people on committees, anti-junior feelings among older members, begrudgery, unecessarily prohibitive rules etc. I myself was suspended on two different occasions for doing things that a number of full-members do on a regular basis. I've been kept out of teams and seen out of form full members get in ahead of me. I could go on but I can see from your own experience, I probably don't need to.

But I want to clarify that the only thing I'm debating is giving first prize in men's competitions to juniors. I get the feeling I'm being tarred with arguing the case of not picking juniors on teams, restricting playing rights etc when in fact, the complete opposite is true.

I'll reiterate that, in the main, I had a very enjoyable 7ish years as a junior golfer, played in pretty much every cup & sheild I could have, played men's Medals, matchplays, Scratch Cups, Boys & Youths C'ships, corporate days, societies... These days, as a full member I have begun working in a few small ways with the comittee to promote and develop junior golf at our club. Like Gorfield, I'm managing a men's interclub team and I also have 2 or 3 juniors involved - and would have more if their golf merited it.
Basically, I think the Prize debate is a good one to have. I just don't want my side of the argument being lumped with all things anti-junior.

ShriekingSheet

david-k wrote: »

Another classic foot and mouth moment from the great sheet.
As for the other waffle like zomg where to begin.

I take it you mean foot-in-mouth? And no, it wasn't a foot-in-mouth moment. Read it again.

Evertonia

At our club there is a student prize put up in all competitions. Student members compete for this prize. If student members want to compete for full prizes, they have the option of paying the full membership fee. Seems only fair in my opinion. Didn't Justin Rose finish 4th one year in the British Open and didn't get a penny of prize money as he was an amateur. This is along the same lines.

thegen

Evertonia wrote: »

At our club there is a student prize put up in all competitions. Student members compete for this prize. If student members want to compete for full prizes, they have the option of paying the full membership fee. Seems only fair in my opinion. Didn't Justin Rose finish 4th one year in the British Open and didn't get a penny of prize money as he was an amateur. This is along the same lines.

No the Justin Rose thing is completely different. He entered as an amateur and competed for the silver medal. At no point was he ever going to win the prize money.

If you read sheets posts the are what the majority of clubs have in place for juniors. ie winning your normal weekend com is no problem. But to win a major your must be a full member.

There are other ways of encouraging juniors within a club ie coaching, inter club teams and senior members putting their name on a time sheet with them.
This both encourages and gives them confidence going forwar. This is both benefical for both the junior and the club as they progress on to being senior members themselves.

I think tthe op's point was that the rules were changed mid competition to stop a junior winning the competition which is dispicable.

ShriekingSheet

thegen wrote: »

No the Justin Rose thing is completely different. He entered as an amateur and competed for the silver medal. At no point was he ever going to win the prize money.

Well it's a bit the same. In our club, Juniors tee it up in a Medal knowing they're competing for a Class 1 prize.

Mister Sifter

I take it most clubs have a handicap limit on which juniors can play? In my own childhood club it was 12, then later lowered to 9 due to the large number of juniors playing.

We were only allowed to play for handicaps and 'magic twos' in the men's medals and stuff. But that was set out before the competition started.

As long as clubs have a policy set in stone and stick to it, i don't see the problem.

Evertonia

I agree unfair to change rules mid competition. But the rules that they now have are in line with most clubs.

ShriekingSheet

Graeme1982 wrote: »

I take it most clubs have a handicap limit on which juniors can play? In my own childhood club it was 12, then later lowered to 9 due to the large number of juniors playing.

We were only allowed to play for handicaps and 'magic twos' in the men's medals and stuff. But that was set out before the competition started.

As long as clubs have a policy set in stone and stick to it, i don't see the problem.

In our place, it's more about booking rights.

Any junior off single figures can take a slot on the timesheet as soon as it goes live. However, a junior off any handicap is welcome to play but can only book their slot from the Thursday before the weekend. In practice, other than maybe the depths of winter, there's never any problem getting a reasonable time. 7.30-10.30 might be chokka but after that there's plenty of slots and invaribaly cancellations in the early times anyway.

As I've said, from there Juniors are competing for a Class prize or the Gross.

Hobart

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

See, this is a key point. Personally, I don't think the h'cap comittee can be blamed. I just don't think the system in place is equipped to deal with a kid who takes up the game with enthusiasm and talent and improves very quickly. You can't butcher a kid on General Play as soon as he looks set to shoot a score. You can't give him/her a starting handicap of 12 because you'll put them off. IMO starting off at 20 or higher and shooting a mad couple of scores to begin with (beating your dad and all the men!) is a great starting experience for any young golfer getting into the game. But I just don't agree with handing them first prize in a Medal for it. Handicaps are designed for someone of static or slowly changing ability. Sure, it's a flaw, but I don't see a huge problem with letting juniors play in all men's competitions, give them a good prize (Class 1 or Gross) and let their handicaps become regulated over time.

I've been playing golf on and off for the last 15 years. I had a 6 year break, due to working away. When I took my break I was playing to a h'cap of 5. No golf for 5 years, and I come back, get a h'cap of 16 and it takes me 6 years to get down to where I am at the moment (9). A number of factors contributed to this, but the most positive one was deciding on a few key things:
1) I was no longer 25 and did not have the body of a 25yo
2) Golf technology, courses etc.. had changed since my "glory" days
3) Lessons were essential.

So I decided to take my first lessons in my life 18 Mnths ago (off 13). Withing 18 mnths I was down to where I am, and more importantly, playing to it. So he handicapper really had his skates on when it came to looking at my scores, and proper order tbh. That's just my experience.

Your argument seemed to be that juniors had an added advantage because they had so much time to practice, and that they had an added incentive, because of the keenness of youth. My point is that we cannot let these factors influence our thoughts when looking at the best players on the day.

Should we be discriminating against teachers in golf clubs, as they would have as much free time off as the students they teach (well the younger ones would). should we discriminate against those who can afford the latest and greatest equipment, as it also gives them an advantage? I know your answer will be no, but why should we discriminate against those who are younger members?

I really don't like the mention of "status in the club". We all know (too well) how some people join golf clubs solely for the whole status/politics of it, and these guys frequently resent juniors in general. I've been on the receiving end of it myself. But I'm purely debating on the basis of golf and golf scores here.

I used the term "status" in it's literal form, i.e. position or rank in relation to other members, and not in relation to how one is viewed within society.

ShriekingSheet

Hobart wrote: »

Your argument seemed to be that juniors had an added advantage because they had so much time to practice, and that they had an added incentive, because of the keenness of youth. My point is that we cannot let these factors influence our thoughts when looking at the best players on the day..

Yes I did raise this as a point and I agree with what you said, it is a weak argument. I'm not quite sure how to cleary put the basis of my POV accorss so I have been just giving scenarios and anicdotes as opposed to firm points. I'm sure of my stance on this but can't do any better in terms of iterating it.

I just think the standard of junior golf, taking handicap into account, is different to that of older golfers. A couple of years ago my little brother won the men's winter league with a blitz of scores, being cut on GP from about 24 to around 14. A short time later, he now plays off 3 and falling. He was and still is embarassed about it. Obviously, we're hugely proud of his golf. But not because of any piece of crystal, but because of the standard of he plays. He wasn't and isn't interested in the piece of crystal either. He wants to get as good as he can get and take his game to the Cups, Sheilds and Boys Championships.
Obviously, my point is not that we should legislate on the basis of one type of scenario, but it's just a relevent (and possibly common) example I wanted to offer.

golf_caddy

we were all juveniles once (those of us lucky to start the game at a young age) and will all be grumpy old men in time ...

but my question (could be considered a grumpy one by some ) would be why do juveniles want to play in adult comps in the first place when they have their own comps to play in... would it because they can win a voucher for say €100 in one comp versus a mars bar and a can of pepsi in another ?

ShriekingSheet

golf_caddy wrote: »

we were all juveniles once (those of us lucky to start the game at a young age) and will all be grumpy old men in time ...

but my question (could be considered a grumpy one by some ) would be why do juveniles want to play in adult comps in the first place when they have their own comps to play in... would it because they can win a voucher for say €100 in one comp versus a mars bar and a can of pepsi in another ?

HA! Come off it!

For a competitive junior, you're saying the reason he may want to play a strokes medal in a full field including the clubs best golfers from the back tees is because of the prizes involved??

Junior comps are uncompetitive in nature - fun days out for kids starting out and regualr golfers alike. Hardly an appropriate stomping ground for the few kids that want to get stuck in and see how good they can be.

They're also pretty infrequent in most clubs and in alot of clubs, there are no junior comps due to lack of uptake - hence the thinking behind involving them in the men's competition.

golf_caddy

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

HA! Come off it!

For a competitive junior, you're saying the reason he may want to play a strokes medal in a full field including the clubs best golfers from the back tees is because of the prizes involved?? Yes

Junior comps are uncompetitive in nature - fun days out for kids starting out and regualr golfers alike. Hardly an appropriate stomping ground for the few kids that want to get stuck in and see how good they can be.

Let the more competitve juniors play of the back stakes in their own comps as they want to test themselves against the course. The younger juniors / those of less ability can play from other stakes.

They're also pretty infrequent in most clubs and in alot of clubs, there are no junior comps due to lack of uptake - hence the thinking behind involving them in the men's competition.

most clubs run at least 2 junior comps in the summer. There is nothing to stop the junior convenor getting some allotted tee time in the winter.

ShriekingSheet

golf_caddy wrote: »

most clubs run at least 2 junior comps in the summer. There is nothing to stop the junior convenor getting some allotted tee time in the winter.

2 competitions? All summer? So your point is "why would a junior want to play in the weekly men's competitions when there's 2 junior comps all summer?"

And eh, short days stop juniors getting time at the weekend during the winter. Sure full members can find it hard to get slots in some months!

golf_caddy

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

2 competitions? All summer? So your point is "why would a junior want to play in the weekly men's competitions when there's 2 junior comps all summer?"

And eh, short days stop juniors getting time at the weekend during the winter. Sure full members can find it hard to get slots in some months!

Ooops ....meant to type 2 per week in summer (Fri/Sun)

thegen

golf_caddy wrote: »

we were all juveniles once (those of us lucky to start the game at a young age) and will all be grumpy old men in time ...

but my question (could be considered a grumpy one by some ) would be why do juveniles want to play in adult comps in the first place when they have their own comps to play in... would it because they can win a voucher for say €100 in one comp versus a mars bar and a can of pepsi in another ?

Dont think so. If anything it is to pit their skills against the best players in the club and lower their handicap and to be able to say to their mates I had a better score than ??????????? not for prizes.

Any junior I know just loves teeing it up.

golf_caddy

thegen wrote: »

Dont think so. If anything it is to pit their skills against the best players in the club and lower their handicap and to be able to say to their mates I had a better score than ??????????? not for prizes.

Any junior I know just loves teeing it up.

If these juniors want to pit their skills against the best players why dont they just ask the best players in the club for a match .... if they dont want to do that they should be happy to play against the toughest competitor in any club ( PAR ... he usually wins everytime )

thegen

golf_caddy wrote: »

If these juniors want to pit their skills against the best players why dont they just ask the best players in the club for a match .... if they dont want to do that they should be happy to play against the toughest competitor in any club ( PAR ... he usually wins everytime )

Maybe because they realise that would be percieved as being cocky little git's and they want to enhance their reputation in the club not alienate themselves.

Yes par is great, but not much craic:rolleyes:

ShriekingSheet

golf_caddy wrote: »

If these juniors want to pit their skills against the best players why dont they just ask the best players in the club for a match .... if they dont want to do that they should be happy to play against the toughest competitor in any club ( PAR ... he usually wins everytime )

Utter rubbish. Can you imagine how that would come accross - anyone (the junior part is irrelevent) walking up to a scratch golfer and saying "i wanna play a match against you...".

You've no idea about teenagers. You've no idea about golf.

golf_caddy

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Utter rubbish. Can you imagine how that would come accross - anyone (the junior part is irrelevent) walking up to a scratch golfer and saying "i wanna play a match against you...".

You've no idea about teenagers. You've no idea about golf.

Have you heard of a matchplay ladder .... works like this... you put your name on the ladder at the bottom and work your way up by playing and beating the person above you ... if you're good enough you will eventually get to the top of the ladder.

Look at my original post for answers to your second/third points.

ShriekingSheet

golf_caddy wrote: »

Have you heard of a matchplay ladder .... works like this... you put your name on the ladder at the bottom and work your way up by playing and beating the person above you ... if you're good enough you will eventually get to the top of the ladder.

Look at my original post for answers to your second/third points.

You mean the original posts where you questioned juniors entering into men's competitions...? ...should stick to junior comps? ...should play against good ol' Par?

But now you're saying they should enter the men's matchplay.... so they can play against the best players...?

Matt Santos

Look, Its a scandal that a committee can get away with this in any Club. The Captain should be ashamed of himself to allow a Competitions Chairman to implement such an outrageous decision.
The juniors paid the appropriate fee to enter the competition proper. When that was accepted they were then entitled to play for all the prizes available. Gross, 1st etc..
I have heard in the past that a Junior could not win the Captains Prize etc and the reason given was that they only paid a fraction of the yearly subscription which in fairness makes some sense but the example given is outrageous. There are Monthly Medals that are the only stroke events in the year in some clubs. If a Junior cant win one of these what exactly can they win?
Club should be reported to its specific Branch of the GUI and made explain its decision.

GreeBo

Personally I dont see any issue with it, other than changing their minds mid competition. Rules like this should be put to a vote in the club, whatever the majority wants is what goes.

In our club the juniors/juveniles cannot win the Captains prize, but Im pretty sure they can win anything else. A good few times a young fella has had the best score only to come in second. Im fine with this as everyone knows that its the rule. However I do think its a bit rich for the guy taking the prize to not even mention the fact that he had the second best score

The reason we have this rule is that juniors and juveniles play for more recreation golf than competition golf, thus their handicap will usually be higher than their playing ability. Hence the already mentioned 50 points results.

Playing 5 or more days a week of casual golf is going to make you better then your handicap, I think thats just a fact that we can all agree on.

There is also the issue that Im sure a lot of older members think that the younger guys all have magic pencils or perhaps are not 100% up on the rules of the game, but thats an argument for another day methinks!

There are plenty of junior/juvenile competitions that can be held during the week or outside/after the main comps on the weekend, as a junior this should be plenty for you IMO.

jampotjim

GreeBo wrote: »

Personally I dont see any issue with it, other than changing their minds mid competition. Rules like this should be put to a vote in the club, whatever the majority wants is what goes.

In our club the juniors/juveniles cannot win the Captains prize, but Im pretty sure they can win anything else. A good few times a young fella has had the best score only to come in second. Im fine with this as everyone knows that its the rule. However I do think its a bit rich for the guy taking the prize to not even mention the fact that he had the second best score

The reason we have this rule is that juniors and juveniles play for more recreation golf than competition golf, thus their handicap will usually be higher than their playing ability. Hence the already mentioned 50 points results.

Playing 5 or more days a week of casual golf is going to make you better then your handicap, I think thats just a fact that we can all agree on.

There is also the issue that Im sure a lot of older members think that the younger guys all have magic pencils or perhaps are not 100% up on the rules of the game, but thats an argument for another day methinks!

There are plenty of junior/juvenile competitions that can be held during the week or outside/after the main comps on the weekend, as a junior this should be plenty for you IMO.

Playing more recreation golf doesn't have to be true as clubs should have midweek junior comps to keep track of their form and also try and get them out in interclub stuff to get them use to playing other courses in competition...

I know when we where kids apart from the boys which where the best competitions I have played for pure competition... We had events for the club every week be it smurfit cup/fred daly/other team and single events which 1st of made sure our handicaps stayed in line with the rest of the club but also got us use to competing on other courses.. We had some stupid rules like not allowed play after 4pm etc but we had some junior section with about 10 players playing of 8 and lower

Matt Santos

Guys, I have been watching this thread grow from the first post and eventually posted on it myself but I see a drift from the original point of the OP.
Juniors are of course going to be the group of players that hit the huge scores eventually. If the y are started off with a handicap of 16/18 and are able to play 5/6 times a week of course they are going to collapse down the handicap! That is obvious in my opinion..
The OP stated that AFTER the Competition was completed that a decision was made to EXCLUDE the top two scores as they were juniors. It was also stated that on a previous Monthly Medal that a junior was awarded a prize.
I am not a Junior but I have previously been involved with the Juniors at committee level. I had to deal with some unusual antics from Full Members where they had told Juniors that they were not entitled to put their names on the Club Timesheet, that they were not entitled to play through and that they were not entitled to mark each others cards!!
It is obvious from the OP that this Competitions Committee has made a gross miscarriage of justice in sport and two juniors have been conned out of their rightful prizes. If the Club is anything like my own Club the Golfer of the Year is calculated from the Monthly Medal results and therefore the juniors are excluded from winning this also.
Dont get me wrong, if this was a committee decision and was posted on the notice board that it was the case then there is no harm done but as I assume from the OP his entry money was accepted and he was of the belief that he could win any prize on offer a wrong was done..
I hope someone with a back bone has the character to take on this crowd......

callaway92

Matt Santos wrote: »

Guys, I have been watching this thread grow from the first post and eventually posted on it myself but I see a drift from the original point of the OP.
Juniors are of course going to be the group of players that hit the huge scores eventually. If the y are started off with a handicap of 16/18 and are able to play 5/6 times a week of course they are going to collapse down the handicap! That is obvious in my opinion..
The OP stated that AFTER the Competition was completed that a decision was made to EXCLUDE the top two scores as they were juniors. It was also stated that on a previous Monthly Medal that a junior was awarded a prize.
I am not a Junior but I have previously been involved with the Juniors at committee level. I had to deal with some unusual antics from Full Members where they had told Juniors that they were not entitled to put their names on the Club Timesheet, that they were not entitled to play through and that they were not entitled to mark each others cards!!
It is obvious from the OP that this Competitions Committee has made a gross miscarriage of justice in sport and two juniors have been conned out of their rightful prizes. If the Club is anything like my own Club the Golfer of the Year is calculated from the Monthly Medal results and therefore the juniors are excluded from winning this also.
Dont get me wrong, if this was a committee decision and was posted on the notice board that it was the case then there is no harm done but as I assume from the OP his entry money was accepted and he was of the belief that he could win any prize on offer a wrong was done..
I hope someone with a back bone has the character to take on this crowd......

well fécking said