Dublin City car ban

DWCommuter

From rte.ie

Dublin city car ban may be scaled back

Tuesday, 21 April 2009 09:07

Dublin city officials are offering to scale back plans for a city centre car ban following complaints from businesses.
78% of submissions received during public consultation were opposed to the planned bus gate at College Green.
The issue is to be considered during a special meeting of the council's transport committee today.


The opposition came mainly from retailers and car park owners who fear loss of business if cars are stopped from travelling to or from Dame Street at College Green.
A study carried out for the city council revealed that car users spend more - €118 on average compared to just €49 for non-car users.
The council argued for the bus gate pointing out that College Green is a major pinch-point for Dublin bus services and 40% of all routes travel using this area.
However, city centre businesses pointed out that shoppers who use cars travel mainly off-peak.
Council officials are now proposing three options - a 24-hour bus gate, a 12-hour ban from 7am to 7pm or restrictions just during the morning and evening rush hours.

paulm17781

I saw this, note it's all about a car ban. If I'm not mistaken it was a route change. A route change that probably would have made the city more pleasant but scare tactics and calling it a car ban have stopped it. :mad:

dmeehan

the business that objected should ask traders on grafton and henry streets if the absense of cars has adversely affected their bottom line

i would think not!


who is running the city anyway, the city council or the cranky traders?

bazzer

Typical of this country. Any good ideas nearly always end in some sort of fudge because of moaners.

Samson

dmeehan wrote: »

who is running the city anyway, the city council or the cranky traders?

Don't the cranky traders fund the city council to a large degree?

Jip

bazzer wrote: »

Typical of this country. Any good ideas nearly always end in some sort of fudge because of moaners.

Now that's funny, a good idea ? There's threads all over boards.ie raising valid points and why exactly this is not a good idea.

RATM

Why is it in this country that when a good idea comes along we can never implement it without it being watered down so much that its no longer a good idea?

Does anyone know the name of the FG councilor who has come out against this plan ?

markpb

RTE wrote: »

A study carried out for the city council revealed that car users spend more - €118 on average compared to just €49 for non-car users.
The council argued for the bus gate pointing out that College Green is a major pinch-point for Dublin bus services and 40% of all routes travel using this area.

I'd love to know how this survey was carried out. Do shopkeepers ask anyone else how they travelled to their shop that day? I've certainly not been asked.

I've just about given up on this country, we'll never make any progress. The Dart in 1984 was the last time anyone made a serious decision about public transport and I'm sure it was an accident.

paulm17781

There were groups set up on Facebook (by a friend) against the bus gateway. It was pretty much reported as an all out ban when really it was a new set of diversions. Living in the city centre, I can tell you it would have made it much more pleasant and probably brought more people in. We have an ability not to see the big picture in this country. AFIAK, they objected to Grafton st. being pedestrianised too.

bazzer

Jip wrote: »

Now that's funny, a good idea ? There's threads all over boards.ie raising valid points and why exactly this is not a good idea.

Well, I think it IS a good idea, no matter how many threads there are to the contrary.

doolox

It is really a question of convenience. If people go to town on foot they will be very concious of their ability to carry weight and will not buy as much as a car user might buy.
For most items this is not a problem but for heavy items such as furniture and the like it is a problem.
Anything that gets in the way of that vital purchasing decision should be avoided.
You will see more people going to out-of-town shopping centres for their heavy purchases and using Dublin city centre only for entertainment and highly specialised purchases (Educational books etc...).

paulm17781

doolox wrote: »

If people go to town on foot

This is my point. There was never a car ban. It was about redirecting traffic from other parts of the city.

markpb

doolox wrote: »

It is really a question of convenience. If people go to town on foot they will be very concious of their ability to carry weight and will not buy as much as a car user might buy.
For most items this is not a problem but for heavy items such as furniture and the like it is a problem.
Anything that gets in the way of that vital purchasing decision should be avoided.
You will see more people going to out-of-town shopping centres for their heavy purchases and using Dublin city centre only for entertainment and highly specialised purchases (Educational books etc...).

That's exactly the type of stupid misunderstanding that's going to bring this plan to a crashing halt.

- It's not a city centre car ban. It removes cars from certain streets. They will still have full access to the car parks, just via a different route.

- They did not have access to park (or stop) on those streets so access to shops on those streets won't change. People can't pull up outside a shop on Dame st to load their heavy purchases so not being allowed drive on the street won't make any difference.

- What retailers on College Green or Dame St currently sell such heavy items that people on foot can't carry them?

- How do the traders on Henry St, Grafton St or Oxford St in London get by without private car access? They must be dying...

paulm17781

How do we submit to DCC? I couldn't see anything on the site.

It strikes me that we need to do this and make it clear to DCC that all the objections think (because of good / bad marketing) that this is a ban and don't realise it is simply a new traffic lay out, that makes the city more pedestrian friendly and more pleasant.

markpb

The list of people on the Transport committee is here. Once you have their names, put them into Hoogle and you should get email addresses for most of them.

I think the open consultation email address is qbnoffice@dublincity.ie although it may be too late if the committee are discussing it today.

paulm17781

markpb wrote: »

although it may be too late if the committee are discussing it today.

I didn't realise they were discussing it today. I'd like to think their common sense will prevail and they'll realise that most objectors didn't fully understand it, I'd say this is unlikely though.

godtabh

markpb wrote: »

- It's not a city centre car ban. It removes cars from certain streets. They will still have full access to the car parks, just via a different route.

The alterantive routes will severly impact the ability to access some car parks. The new acess routes are not suitbale for the the type and volume of usage.

That side of it does not appear to have been well thought out

godtabh

paulm17781 wrote: »

How do we submit to DCC? I couldn't see anything on the site.

It strikes me that we need to do this and make it clear to DCC that all the objections think (because of good / bad marketing) that this is a ban and don't realise it is simply a new traffic lay out, that makes the city more pedestrian friendly and more pleasant.

The deadline for submissions was the 27th of March

antoinolachtnai

Pulling it a bit to one side, I always thought that if they stopped taxis from taking the left turn at the bottom of Nassau St, it would make a big difference to journey times for Northbound traffic without too much disruption.

paulm17781

kearnsr wrote: »

The deadline for submissions was the 27th of March

I knew it was originally but I had thought the "reviewing this" option had delayed it. Misunderstanding on my part.

markpb

It just occurred to me yesterday that DB made no effort at all to sell this to the general public. DCBA put a lot of time and effort into the media campaign against it and yet the people who would benefit most from this, didn't say a word. Doesn't inspire much confidence in them, does it?

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Pulling it a bit to one side, I always thought that if they stopped taxis from taking the left turn at the bottom of Nassau St, it would make a big difference to journey times for Northbound traffic without too much disruption.

Where do you mean? Nassau onto what street?

bazzer

markpb wrote: »

It just occurred to me yesterday that DB made no effort at all to sell this to the general public. DCBA put a lot of time and effort into the media campaign against it and yet the people who would benefit most from this, didn't say a word. Doesn't inspire much confidence in them, does it?

I would say that's down to the fact that over the years, DCC and DB have never been the best of friends. Sounds ridiculous, but it's true.

DB have had to fight very hard to get simple things like bus lanes considered in many city centre areas, so it wouldn't surprise me if they had just lost heart in trying to lobby DCC any more. How long did it take for the complete North Quays QBC to come into existence? About twenty years? In DCC terms, that's fast-tracking.

lostexpectation

would there really not be enough cars to fill the city centre cars parks if the original proposed restrictions was put in palce

Victor

doolox wrote: »

It is really a question of convenience. If people go to town on foot they will be very concious of their ability to carry weight and will not buy as much as a car user might buy.
For most items this is not a problem but for heavy items such as furniture and the like it is a problem.
Anything that gets in the way of that vital purchasing decision should be avoided.
You will see more people going to out-of-town shopping centres for their heavy purchases and using Dublin city centre only for entertainment and highly specialised purchases (Educational books etc...).

How often do you buy furniture? How often do you buy furniture in the city centre?

markpb wrote: »

The list of people on the Transport committee is here. Once you have their names, put them into Hoogle and you should get email addresses for most of them.

I think the open consultation email address is qbnoffice@dublincity.ie although it may be too late if the committee are discussing it today.

You can contact the councillors here: http://www.dublincity.ie/YourCouncil/Councillors/YourLocalCouncillors/Pages/FindYourLocalCouncillorsHome.aspx - no harm in dropping thema line. I imagine it still has to go in front of the full council.

A study carried out for the city council revealed that car users spend more - €118 on average compared to just €49 for non-car users.

Of course, how many people driving down College Green are actually going shopping? And how many are just avoiding the north quays?

RATM wrote: »

Does anyone know the name of the FG councilor who has come out against this plan ?

Gerry Breen

markpb wrote: »

Where do you mean? Nassau onto what street?

I think he means from Dawson Street to Nassua Street / Suffolk Street.

godtabh

Victor wrote: »

You can contact the councillors here: http://www.dublincity.ie/YourCouncil/Councillors/YourLocalCouncillors/Pages/FindYourLocalCouncillorsHome.aspx - no harm in dropping thema line. I imagine it still has to go in front of the full council.

This is done under the roads act (cant remember which one) as opposed to Part 8 Planning so the councillors can comment on it but the final decision goes to the city manager

paulm17781

It's being implemented for rush hour. Disappointing but something.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0511/bus.html

godtabh

paulm17781 wrote: »

It's being implemented for rush hour. Disappointing but something.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0511/bus.html

Disappointing in what sense?

Ste.phen

that it wasn't more far reaching

cormie

paulm17781 wrote: »

It's being implemented for rush hour. Disappointing but something.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0511/bus.html

This only mentions private cars, does this mean commercial vans wont be affected?

markpb

cormie wrote: »

This only mentions private cars, does this mean commercial vans wont be affected?

As far as I know, anyone who needs access will be allowed entry so commercial vans making deliveries to the restricted area should be fine. Of course, whether it will be enforced or not is a different matter.

dereko1969

The minutes aren't up on the council's website yet, but does anyone know who the dirty dozen were that voted against the public transportation gate?

Jip

One mans dirty dozen is another mans set of heroes. I see they're going to implement it in Augsut so by the time September comes around when traffic is dire because of it they can turn around and blame the kids being back to school.

paulm17781

kearnsr wrote: »

Disappointing in what sense?

Disappointing that it's not 24/7. The city would be much nicer (and busier) if it were more pedestrian friendly or less traffic filled.

godtabh

paulm17781 wrote: »

Disappointing that it's not 24/7. The city would be much nicer (and busier) if it were more pedestrian friendly or less traffic filled.

Having made a submission to DCC their plans weren’t thought out fully and as a result had many flaws. It should be 24/7 but more work needs to done on to suit the business it will affect

markpb

kearnsr wrote: »

Having made a submission to DCC their plans weren’t thought out fully and as a result had many flaws. It should be 24/7 but more work needs to done on to suit the business it will affect

You mentioned before that the new routes weren't sufficient to match the level of demand for car parks. I assume that's what was in your submission? What routes are they?

dowlingm

I'm interested in the study mentioned above, assuming it was done for the city council and not merely supplied to them by the retailers. I think there is an assumption by pro-transit / anti-discretional private car folks that retail spend is largely interchangeable between modes but that depends on what type of retail it is and how widely spaced the intended outlets to be visited are and so on.

It would be interesting to see a concept like home delivery operated on behalf of a group of stores attempted (outside of a shopping centre arrangement), so you would have your purchase boxed and picked up from multiple stores and delivered to your house together that night.

markpb

dowlingm wrote: »

I'm interested in the study mentioned above, assuming it was done for the city council and not merely supplied to them by the retailers.

If memory serves, the papers reported that the study was undertaken by the city centre traders. I can't see any way such a study could be reliable, has anyone every been asked how they got to the city centre when purchasing something

ODS

Looks as if residents in the area are going ape about this - Norris was just on the radio while the Mountjoy square society have been circulating this:


Mountjoy Square Society Urges Dublin City Councillors to Drop “Bus Gate” and Instead Connect Luas

11-05-2009

The Mountjoy Square Society strongly urges Dublin City Councillors to cancel the bus gate at tonight’s monthly meeting as we fear it will cause far more buses and coaches to be dumped in Mountjoy Square. This position was adopted unanimously by the society's members at its monthly meeting, held last night.

Despite Dublin Bus network reform announcements, first by the late Seamas Brennan, then by Cullen, and most recently by Noel Dempsey, no reform has occurred – with most buses following tramlines 70 years gone to a pillar also disappeared. It would be a rotten irony if more Dublin Buses blocking up College Green was to result in the Luas lines prevented from ever being connected. The Mountjoy Square Society urges connection of the Luas as a priority over facilitating an unreformed Dublin Bus.

The north inner city is abused by Dublin Bus; no service connects one end of Dorset Street to the other, no bus goes down Capel, North King, or Dominick Streets; instead Dublin Bus uses Mountjoy Square as a runway depot with many out-of-service buses parking up outside a crèche and childrens areas, blocking motorist’s sightlines and emitting cancerous fumes.

Dublin Bus refuses to provide passenger services after 6pm to Mountjoy Square, thus further stigmatizing business and residential interests. Despite the Mountjoy/ Summerhill depot due to be going, as scheduled in a 2001 council plan, even a reasonable suggestion by city officials urging a new ramp from the depot onto Summer hill – delivering speedier access onto O’Connell Street via Parnell Street – has been ignored.

Dublin Bus do NOT “serve the entire community”; they bully their way against the community and are a blight on the parts on the inner city they already dominate, such as Marlborough Street and Parnell Square. What hope for College Green if these custodians were to take primary charge – please see attached photograph of Broadstone Station in disgraceful condition.

Bus Gate is highly unlikely to deliver a better bus services in the absence of route reform; instead it facilitates worst practice. Little benefit is gained in the way of deterring private through traffic as O’Connell Street College - Green is already a large traffic cell area – since considered restrictions were introduced at Suffolk, South Great Georges, Pearse, North Frederick, Abbey, and Upper O’Connell Streets, as part of the Integrated Area Plan. The few cars currently using O’Connell Street – College Green already have to drive out of their way and are mostly not through traffic. Taxis and buses will simply make up for the private cars removed, not delivering for either cyclists or pedestrians.

Dublin Bus is part of the greater CIE created transport problem in the north inner city: in Mountjoy Square walls of coaches dangerously park up, yet many of these are on contract to CIE – who already have Broadstone, 90 acres at Connolly, etc. Beside Mountjoy Square is Croke Park, Europe’s 5th largest stadium, and sandwiched between two railway lines – yet CIE refuses to either install a station. This existing line would connect Connolly and Heuston Stations, and serve the communities in the North Circular Road, Phibsborough, Cabra, Russell Street, and Ballybough areas.

Facts provided by agencies have been few, yet Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) have stated at Metro North hearings, the time benefit to Dublin Bus journeys is only 1% if bus gate is inserted.

The Mountjoy Square Society notes and supports the Dublin City Business Association’s concerns; in the absence of leadership being given by central government prioritizing Luas lines being connected over bus gate, we call on Dublin City Council to give leadership in rejecting this scheme outright.

Issued on instructions by the members of the Mountjoy Square Society,

Ruadhán MacEoin

Chairman.

Heart

Dublin Bus refuses to provide passenger services after 6pm to Mountjoy Square, thus further stigmatizing business and residential interests.

Isn't this as a result of driver attacks? Where's the Mountjoy Sq. society press release about a safer Mountjoy Sq.?

Also, do they or don't they want the bus service?

What hope for College Green if these custodians were to take primary charge – please see attached photograph of Broadstone Station in disgraceful condition.

While I can't see a picture I'm presuming this is the Bus Eireann building in which Dublin Bus have no involvement with. Also, regarding the area outside Broadstone, the City Council have questions to answer about the state of the council controlled section.

ODS

Heart wrote: »

Isn't this as a result of driver attacks? Where's the Mountjoy Sq. society press release about a safer Mountjoy Sq.?

Also, do they or don't they want the bus service?

I understand there was one attack only, and that despite perception regarding security Mountjoy Sq. has actually the lowest level of burglary in the country.

Regarding whether they want a bus service, an irregular bus service that doesn't run after 6pm is worthless, and creates a very negative impression regarding their area. If Dublin Bus had any interest, I am sure they could have had an extra light or camera installed at the stop - funny though how DB are happy to use the square for their own operational requirements, yet won't provide a proper service. From what I'm hearing, there's about to be a massive row regarding all of this...

ODS

Heart wrote: »

While I can't see a picture I'm presuming this is the Bus Eireann building in which Dublin Bus have no involvement with. Also, regarding the area outside Broadstone, the City Council have questions to answer about the state of the council controlled section.

CIE owned property at Broadstone as illustrated in the third photograph in this post - http://www.archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=73702&postcount=10

Disgraceful stuff altogether!

bazzer

ODS wrote: »

The few cars currently using O’Connell Street – College Green already have to drive out of their way and are mostly not through traffic.

"... few cars ..." ??? BULL.

This is why it takes buses 20 minutes or more during peak times to travel down O'Connell Street.

And after eventually clearing O'Connell Bridge, traffic either must turn left onto Townsend Street or keep going around onto College Green. Most do the latter.

godtabh

markpb wrote: »

You mentioned before that the new routes weren't sufficient to match the level of demand for car parks. I assume that's what was in your submission? What routes are they?

I cant say on a public forum cause of work and stuff but if you look at the bus gate proposals its easy to see which ones would cause problems. One of the cities main car parks is in temple bar. Look at that for a start

lostexpectation

is the car business submission on line

antoinolachtnai

It is quite easy to slam down on people for being anti public transport here.

Many people are highly dependent on cars (both directly where they need the car themselves, and indirectly where they depend on their customers having cars).

The reality is that there are deep, fundamental problems with public transport in dublin and there is no sign of these problems being resolved any time soon.

Not much is being done to resolve this.

paulm17781

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is quite easy to slam down on people for being anti public transport here.

Many people are highly dependent on cars (both directly where they need the car themselves, and indirectly where they depend on their customers having cars).

The reality is that there are deep, fundamental problems with public transport in dublin and there is no sign of these problems being resolved any time soon.

Not much is being done to resolve this.

Opposing every change to facilitate public transport doesn't help though.

bazzer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The reality is that there are deep, fundamental problems with public transport in dublin and there is no sign of these problems being resolved any time soon.

Not much is being done to resolve this.

On the flip side, although probably not deep and fundamental, I would say that this Bus Gate is one of the things being done to resolve it.

markpb

bazzer wrote: »

On the flip side, although probably not deep and fundamental, I would say that this Bus Gate is one of the things being done to resolve it.

The bus gate combined with new loading arrangements for bus stops in the city centre would have a huge impact on bus speeds across the city centre. There's no problem with lots of buses using the same streets, the problem starts when they all share bus stops. O'Connell St, Westmoreland St, D'Olier St and Grafton St are like DB turning a large gun on itself and shooting itself squarely in the foot.

If this is brought in, there's a huge scope for improvement but it has to be driven by someone who can force DB and DCC to make those changes. I don't think any person exists.

antoinolachtnai

Be fair. They aren't opposing all changes to public transport. They are just opposing this one.

If they thought they were going to get a great public transport system as a result, their attitude might be different. But they have no reason to believe they will. This change is not being made as part of an overall plan.

Jip

bazzer wrote: »

"... few cars ..." ??? BULL.

This is why it takes buses 20 minutes or more during peak times to travel down O'Connell Street.

Alot of that congestion is due to taxis doubling up on the rank paritially blocking one lane either side plus the sheer amount of buses, private and public. Very few private cars in comparison to buses and taxis uses O'Connell Street at evening peak times, a little more in the mornings.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Be fair. They aren't opposing all changes to public transport. They are just opposing this one.

If they thought they were going to get a great public transport system as a result, their attitude might be different. But they have no reason to believe they will. This change is not being made as part of an overall plan.

Completely agree. At the moment for a huge amount of people travelling from the north west of the city to the south side of the city there are no better options than by car. In my case a car will get me from my house, through the city centre and onto the southside alot quicker than public transport. If I was to get a bus I would have to get off at Parnell Square and either get another bus or walk, I always walk, to the office from there but either way it's alot slower. Where's the benefit of the bus gate to me or several thousand other people living out my direction ?

If there was a route that was direct and fast that went from one side of the city to the other I would contemplate it. Until then I'm not giving up my car.

paulm17781

Jip wrote: »

Completely agree. At the moment for a huge amount of people travelling from the north west of the city to the south side of the city there are no better options than by car. In my case a car will get me from my house, through the city centre and onto the southside alot quicker than public transport. If I was to get a bus I would have to get off at Parnell Square and either get another bus or walk, I always walk, to the office from there but either way it's alot slower. Where's the benefit of the bus gate to me or several thousand other people living out my direction ?

You're implying it's bad because it doesn't suit you. If they want to make a bus gate that suits you should I be against it as it does nothing for me?

Dublin is a badly laid out city with far too much traffic in it. Less traffic would make it far more pleasant and more efficient public transport would also aid this.