The Church in China

PDN

I've recently returned from what could be my last trip to the Underground Church in China. The authorities there have made it clear that they know who I am and what I'm doing - so I don't know if any more visas will be granted.

The Underground Church is still sufferiing persecution and is still growing rapidly. I was impressed by how many of them are still turning to Christ from a totally nonrelligious background. 80% of the Christians I met there told me they had never seen a Bible or heard anything of Jesus prior to their conversion.

Among those I met were a guy who was imprisoned for 24 years for preaching the Gospel. During this time he was subjected to torture and mock executions. At other times he was placed in a cell with homosexuals who raped him while guards watched and taunted him through the bars of his cell. While in prison he led many of his fellow inmates to Christ.

Another was a young lady who was arrested while only 14 years of age for smuggling food into prison for her Gospel preacher father (he was being denied food as part of his torture). Once arrested she was beaten and ordered to sign a declaration denying God's existence. Then they dragged her father before her and said they would kill him unless she renounced her faith. He begged her not to listen to them and urged her to be true to her faith, so, in front of her eyes, they hit his back with a sledge-hammer and broke his spine. She was tortured for 3 more weeks until a guard dropped dead while taunting her and inserting a cattle prod into her mouth. Then she was released. She went home and immediately began filling in for her father on his preaching circuit. He now assists her from his wheelchair.

The biggest change I have seen on this trip is how much bolder the Christians are becoming. There are still just as many arrests (several of my planned meetings were cancelled because they guys I should have been meeting were still in dentention having been arrested on Easter Sunday) but the believers no longer allow that to hold them back. They are speaking openly about their faith in public areas and are gathering in larger numbers in settings where it is apparent to the entire neighbourhood what is going on. I even watched in amazement as a young Chinese believer engaged other people in conversation and led somebody to faith in Christ during the hour or more that we stood in line under the noses of police and soldiers in Tianamen Square to view Mao's preserved corpse.

It seems like the Christians have figured out that government policy is to carry out a certain amount of arrests - and that will happen whether the church operates secretively or more openly. So they might as well just go for it anyway. It reminds me of those big herds of wildebeest that you see on the Discovery Channel crossing crocodile infested rivers. Some of them will get taken, but their huge numbers ensure that most will make it across. So the Christians become bolder and millions each year are being added to the Underground Church.

I would ask the Christian posters here to continue to pray for the Church in China. Catholicism is also cruelly persecuted. There is a State-sponsored version of Catholicism, with bishops appointed by the government, but those who retain allegiance to the Vatican are still persecuted.

monosharp

While I certainly do not agree with persecution of any religion for any reason and I don't agree with the PRC policies I have to state my opinion.

Why do Christians constantly try to spread 'it' ?

I really have had enough the last few months. I have gone from 'slight believer' to 'uncaring either way' to 'leave me the hell alone' in a very short period of time.

In Ireland, of all places on this Earth, I can actually live, work and exist there without some self obsessed person with a book talking about things that some guy wrote down over a thousand years ago that he doesn't even understand.

Here, in Asia, I have to put up with it every week. I can't go to work in the morning without some loon trying to get me to go to church. Honestly, how can I get them to leave me alone ? I am almost at the point where I will pay them to leave me alone.

When I was young I thought the Catholic church was bad. How wrong I was. The Catholic Church is actually benevolent compared to most other Christians, they at least have common decency and courtesy and will leave you alone these days.

If you know anything about China you know that promoting these underground churches are going to get these people hurt and yet you fly in and fly out without a care in the world because your 'promoting' your particular line of thinking.

I have all the respect in the world for Christianity, for Buddhism, for Islam, for Hinduism, for the vast majority of religions.

But evangelistic Christianity is a cancer which spreads hatred as often as it spreads the 'good message' of JC whom I also have time for. I read the Bible, not because I'm a Christian but because JC was a great guy and he has a good message.

And if he knew the kind of tripe that would be done in his name he wouldn't have bothered doing any of it.

What will Evangelists do when the whole world is converted ? Will each particular church go back around again trying to convince people that their particular type of nonsense is the correct nonsense ?

Will they start approaching Catholics telling them they are not worshipping Jesus the "right" way unless they give money to their particular cult ?

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

While I certainly do not agree with persecution of any religion for any reason and I don't agree with the PRC policies I have to state my opinion.

Why do Christians constantly try to spread 'it' ?

They try to spread it for the same reason as do vegetarians, socialists, or activists in any cause - because they believe it to be true and beneficial. If you want to start a thread on that, rather than discussing the Church in China, then feel free to do so. Let's keep this one on topic please.

If you know anything about China you know that promoting these underground churches are going to get these people hurt and yet you fly in and fly out without a care in the world because your 'promoting' your particular line of thinking

Don't presume that you know anything about me or what cares I have. I visit at the request of my friends in China. If we all followed your line of thinking then we would just abandon all persecuted groups to their fate and give in to the bully boys.

But evangelistic Christianity is a cancer which spreads hatred as often as it spreads the 'good message' of JC whom I also have time for.

As a moderator of this forum I suggest you read the Charter. Referring to a form of mainstream Christianity as a 'cancer which spreads hate' is unacceptable and any repeat will earn an infraction. This would also be true if you referred to Catholicism in that way.

postcynical

Those are some inspiring stories PDN. We take our faith for granted here without remembering how hard our fathers in faith must have had to struggle so that we can practice in relative freedom. I'll pray for those brave people whom you have described.

postcynical

monosharp wrote: »

And what about me ? I am been persecuted almost every day by evangelists and for once I wish I was exaggerating because its really getting ridiculous the last month.

Try reading the original post again. Unwanted attention is annoying, but does spam mail get your dander up so?

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

Among those I met were a guy who was imprisoned for 24 years for preaching the Gospel.

The worst thing is from what I have had to put up with the last few months I ALMOST think thats a good idea.

JimiTime

These stories really give us some perspective.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

80% of the Christians I met there told me they had never seen a Bible or heard anything of Jesus prior to their conversion.

If 80% are joining the church without apparently knowing a thing about its "message", then it seems likely they're joining for some other reason. From the descriptions available, it really does seem unhappily similar to many of the other semi-controllable mass-movements with which Chinese history abounds.

PDN wrote: »

Another was a young lady who was arrested while only 14 years of age [...] they dragged her father before her and said they would kill him unless she renounced her faith. He begged her not to listen to them and urged her to be true to her faith, so, in front of her eyes, they hit his back with a sledge-hammer and broke his spine. She was tortured for 3 more weeks [...]

If this report is accurate, then while the guards actions are despicable, the father's are scarcely less so in demanding that his 14-year old child make a decision that put him in a wheelchair for life, and have it done in front of her.

My opinion of an ideology which requires this kind of suicidal behavior on the part of its adherents, then appears to glorify it when it happens, is probably against the forum charter.

So it's probably best just to say that this madness. Dangerous madness.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

If 80% are joining the church without apparently knowing a thing about its "message"

Come off it, I think you know fine well that is not what I was saying. My point was that they had not heard of Jesus or the Bible at any earlier time in their lives - not that they converted without seeing a Bible or hearing of Jesus. In other words, these were not converts raised in Christian homes - but rather first generation Christians. They discovered Jesus and the Bible during the conversion process (which may in itself take several months).

If this report is accurate, then while the guards actions are despicable, the father's are scarcely less so in demanding that his 14-year old child make a decision that put him in a wheelchair for life, and have it done in front of her.

My opinion of an ideology which requires this kind of suicidal behavior on the part of its adherents, then appears to glorify it when it happens, is probably against the forum charter.

So it's probably best just to say that this madness. Dangerous madness

He begged, not demanded. Christianity is a freewill decision.

As for calling it madness - thank God for mad people! Thank God for the madness of those who fought for the abolition of slavery. Thank God for the madness of those who stood with Martin Luther King and fought segregation. Thank God for the madness of Papa ten Boom who sheltered Jews in Nazi Germany even though it caused his entire family to be sent to the death camps. Thank God for the madness of Archbishop Tutu, Nelson Mandela and those who fought apartheid. Not all of us may share their courage - but God forbid that we ever become those who criticise the persecuted as if they were to blame for their own sufferings.

Robin, I find your above post to be one of the most morally objectionable opinions I have ever seen expressed on boards.ie

Gurgle

PDN, from an athiest; Keep up the good work.
I may not share your faith, but theres little I believe in more than the right to freedom of religion.

JimiTime

robindch wrote: »

If this report is accurate, then while the guards actions are despicable, the father's are scarcely less so in demanding that his 14-year old child make a decision that put him in a wheelchair for life, and have it done in front of her.

'Demanding that his daughter make a decision to put her father in a wheelchair.' Ahh yes, the propaganda twist. A 14 year old was told to sign a declaration that God didn't exist. She didn't. So when they brought out her father, he 'urged her', to be 'true' to her faith, so he urged honesty. He didn't say, 'sign the feckin thing and save me'. He gave her the ultimate lesson in being true. 'Don't let those bullies turn you into a liar!' Now you may think lies can merely serve as a means to an end, but Christians love (or should love) the Truth. Accepting the consaquence of truth in this world can be hard, for the father of the lie is its ruler. Turning this into 'the father is not much better than the prison officers' though. Tut, tut.

My opinion of an ideology which requires this kind of suicidal behavior

Being honest is a much prized value in a Christian. If someone has a gun to your head and demands you lie or he'll kill you, and you choose integrity and truth. That is not suicide my dear Robin, that is 100% murder!

So it's probably best just to say that this madness. Dangerous madness.

People being killed and mutilated for their faith is the madness here!

gaynorvader

JimiTime wrote: »

'Demanding that his daughter make a decision to put her father in a wheelchair.' Ahh yes, the propaganda twist. A 14 year old was told to sign a declaration that God didn't exist. She didn't. So when they brought out her father, he 'urged her', to be 'true' to her faith, so he urged honesty. He didn't say, 'sign the feckin thing and save me'. He gave her the ultimate lesson in being true. 'Don't let those bullies turn you into a liar!' Now you may think lies can merely serve as a means to an end, but Christians love (or should love) the Truth. Accepting the consaquence of truth in this world can be hard, for the father of the lie is its ruler. Turning this into 'the father is not much better than the prison officers' though. Tut, tut.



Being honest is a much prized value in a Christian. If someone has a gun to your head and demands you lie or he'll kill you, and you choose integrity and truth. That is not suicide my dear Robin, that is 100% murder!


People being killed and mutilated for their faith is the madness here!

I don't believe in God, but I agree with JimiTime here, the Chinese guards were wrong, not the girl nor the father. It's all very well being against taking religion to the extreme, but I believe lying to be one of the most reprehensible things a man (or woman) can do. However, I don't think it's right that the underground church becomes less underground, nor is it right that they should need to be in the first place, of course. But still, the laws of the country should be respected and they should keep their faith among themselves, perhaps have small prayer meetings, instead of provoking the authorities. Still my thoughts go out to them, and I wish them luck in surviving their ordeal. Right or wrong, noone should be persecuted for their beliefs in such a manner.:(

prinz

robindch wrote: »

If this report is accurate, then while the guards actions are despicable, the father's are scarcely less so in demanding that his 14-year old child make a decision that put him in a wheelchair for life, and have it done in front of her.

You do realise that China executes minors too? They could easily have executed them both. What should he have done? What would you have done? Sickening.

philologos

PDN, Thanks for the information. It's often so shocking to hear stories like this, when we see that it is safe for us in the West. It should also teach us to value our faith more.

robindch

prinz wrote: »

What should he have done?

He should have told his daughter to sign whatever it was.

prinz wrote: »

What would you have done?

I'd have signed too, but then again, I wouldn't have got myself or my kids into this situation to start with. A parent's primary responsibility is to their kids, not to one ideology or another.

Isn't this what "family values" are supposed to be about?

JimiTime wrote: »

If someone has a gun to your head and demands you lie or he'll kill you, and you choose integrity and truth. That is not suicide my dear Robin, that is 100% murder!

If some guy had a gun to my head and demanded I sign a declaration that god existed (the equivalent for me, I suppose), then the only reasonable course of action is to sign it. The act of violence to ensure consent says far, far more about the guy and his ideological insecurity than it says about me.

PDN wrote: »

Christianity is a freewill decision.

Do you believe it's possible for a child to make a free and unencumbered decision when there's a guard with a sledge hammer threatening to kill or permanently disable their father who's "urging" the kid (whatever that might mean in the context) to refuse to say what the guard wants said?

The father placed his loyalty to his convictions far above his child's psychological welfare and his responsibility to be able to provide for his wife and kid(s).

There is nothing honorable about this, nor about how he gained his appalling injuries and much to condemn in the existence of two ideological systems, both of which demand total loyalty to the extent that guards from one will willingly sledge hammer unyielding men from the other, and both of which are willing to use minors as proxies to settle their differences.

In any case, as above, a declaration, extracted under force, can only mean nothing at all.

PDN wrote: »

I find your above post to be one of the most morally objectionable opinions I have ever seen expressed on boards.ie

I'm sorry to hear it. For my part, I find that inviting death when one has other responsibilities, and the use of minors in this way, and the tacit approval of both, to be equally morally reprehensible.

Anyhow, given the graphic nature of the OP and the strong emotions on both sides, I suspect this thread is unlikely to generate more light than heat, so I think it's wisest to bow out at this point.

JimiTime

robindch wrote: »

He should have told his daughter to sign whatever it was.I'd have signed too,

I suppose thats logical to an atheist. Survival and all that. Truth is expendable when ones life is at stake. Its still 100% not suicide. You can't comprehend such a level of courage, honesty and integrity. You'd probably call it stupidity or some such. There you go though. The Chinese authorities mame and murder folk for being Christian, and its the Christians own fault. I'd expect more from you tbh.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

I suppose thats logical to an atheist. Survival and all that.

While I don't agree with Robin's assessment of this being suicide (to me that implies you desire to die or be killed rather than simply choosing to in order to achieve some outcome), I'm not following what the big deal is about renouncing one's faith to a bunch of Chinese police men?

You say it is logical to an atheist? Is it not logical to a Christian? Would you lie to save your life or the life of your children? And if you would about other things but not about your faith, why not? Is that a Christian thing? Are you told not to lie about your faith? (genuine question)

Fanny Cradock

gaynorvader wrote: »

However, I don't think it's right that the underground church becomes less underground, nor is it right that they should need to be in the first place, of course. But still, the laws of the country should be respected and they should keep their faith among themselves, perhaps have small prayer meetings, instead of provoking the authorities. Still my thoughts go out to them, and I wish them luck in surviving their ordeal. Right or wrong, noone should be persecuted for their beliefs in such a manner.:(

You do realise that you are contradicting yourself?

You first suggest that Christians, and allow me to paraphrase, should keep cowering in the corner, avoid any eye contact with the authorities and never attempt to seek legitimacy or equality because it's the law. On the other hand, you suggest that what the authorities are doing is wrong (is smashing backbones with sledge hammers ever right?) and no one should be persecuted for their beliefs. Those are two fairly polarised statements.

You assume that simply meeting in small groups is any more acceptable to the Chinese authorities. What if it's not? What if Rosa Parks had taken your advice and sat at the back of the bus simply because it was the law?

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

While I don't agree with Robin's assessment of this being suicide (to me that implies you desire to die or be killed rather than simply choosing to in order to achieve some outcome), I'm not following what the big deal is about renouncing one's faith to a bunch of Chinese police men?

You say it is logical to an atheist? Is it not logical to a Christian? Would you lie to save your life or the life of your children? And if you would about other things but not about your faith, why not? Is that a Christian thing? Are you told not to lie about your faith? (genuine question)

If someone does sign such a declaration then the authorities print it up as a propaganda tool. It is distributed to portray the idea that Christians are deluded confused people who change their mind at the drop of a hat.

monosharp

I find this hilarious.

China bans a lot of religions yet you guys r only interested when its your own ? They've done a lot worse to other religions but again you only care when its your own.

There are Christian groups in countries and countries themselves nowadays that are persecuting other religions and you guys don't care.

Jesus would be very proud of you.

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

While I don't agree with Robin's assessment of this being suicide (to me that implies you desire to die or be killed rather than simply choosing to in order to achieve some outcome), I'm not following what the big deal is about renouncing one's faith to a bunch of Chinese police men?

You say it is logical to an atheist? Is it not logical to a Christian? Would you lie to save your life or the life of your children? And if you would about other things but not about your faith, why not? Is that a Christian thing? Are you told not to lie about your faith? (genuine question)

I would assume that it is because some people feel so compelled by the truth that they have to tell it. If you are a Star Trek fan (it is the internet, after all!) this might resonate with you.

Fanny Cradock

monosharp wrote: »

I find this hilarious.

China bans a lot of religions yet you guys r only interested when its your own ? They've done a lot worse to other religions but again you only care when its your own.

There are Christian groups in countries and countries themselves nowadays that are persecuting other religions and you guys don't care.

Jesus would be very proud of you.

This is the CHRISTIANITY forum. Can you possibly understand why PDN would be talking about the persecution of Christians after arriving back form China on a trip to specifically meet Christians?

You get a yellow! Your hysterical and consistently negative rants are becoming tiresome.

monosharp

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I would assume that it is because some people feel so compelled by the truth that they have to tell it. If you are a Star Trek fan (it is the internet, after all!) this might resonate with you.

Thats fact, something physical, solid, real.

Faith is not truth.

JimiTime

monosharp wrote: »

I find this hilarious.

I don't think you really do.

China bans a lot of religions yet you guys r only interested when its your own ?

Well there is question mark there, so I'll answer it for you. No, being the answer.

They've done a lot worse to other religions but again you only care when its your own.

Oh right, so the first one was rhetorical ey. I didn't see a post saying, 'screw the rest of them'. Most of us, probably yourself included, are in our cosy homes with our high speed internet, and didn't realise this was even happening to Christians until rehcently. So you frequent China do you? I for one would be interested in any news you have on the persecution of others there too, though this being the 'Christianity' forum I would wonder about its relevance here. Unless of course you were seeking prayer for the persecuted? I'm sure most here wouldn't discriminate in their condemnation.

There are Christian groups in countries and countries themselves nowadays that are persecuting other religions

Start a thread on it then. Document your experience as PDN did. I would be interested in this.

and you guys don't care.

How presumtuous. Could you at least give us who you're talking about, then detail the parallels? Then when you get the responses make your assesment of who cares and who doesn't?

Jesus would be very proud of you.

You obviously don't know who you're talking about, so saying you know he'd be proud seems moot.

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

I find this hilarious.

China bans a lot of religions yet you guys r only interested when its your own ? They've done a lot worse to other religions but again you only care when its your own.

There are Christian groups in countries and countries themselves nowadays that are persecuting other religions and you guys don't care.

Jesus would be very proud of you.

I assure you that if a Christian were to deliberately break someone's spine with a sledge hammer I would unreservedly condemn them. And I can also assure you that I wouldn't imply that their victim deserved what they got just because they refused to convert to Christianity.

Fanny Cradock

JimiTime wrote: »

I suppose thats logical to an atheist. Survival and all that. Truth is expendable when ones life is at stake. Its still 100% not suicide. You can't comprehend such a level of courage, honesty and integrity. You'd probably call it stupidity or some such. There you go though. The Chinese authorities mame and murder folk for being Christian, and its the Christians own fault. I don't know why I'd expect more from you tbh, yet I still do.

This crosses the line, Jimi. Now go shake robin's hand.

monosharp

JimiTime wrote: »

So you frequent China do you?

Yes. I live an hours flight from beijing.

I for one would be interested in any news you have on the persecution of others there too. Indeed, I'm sure most here wouldn't discriminate in their condemnation.

Alas, tis not allowed in the Christianity forum.

Start a thread on it then. Document your experience as PDN did. I would be interested in this.

And me showing evidence of Christians persecuting others would be allowed here ?

You obviously don't know who you're talking about, so saying you know he'd be proud seems moot.

Actually I'm a big fan of Jesus, the man who spread good morals and a good message.

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

I assure you that if a Christian were to deliberately break someone's spine with a sledge hammer I would unreservedly condemn them. And I can also assure you that I wouldn't imply that their victim deserved what they got just because they refused to convert to Christianity.

Well since you seem to know the area, whats your opinion on Chinese persecution of Buddhists in Tibet ? Or the Falun Gong ?

Or what about Christian persecution of buddhists and to a lesser extent Catholics and others in South Korea ?

What about the Unification Church ? Are they all good Christians going to heaven ?

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

And me showing evidence of Christians persecuting others would be allowed here ?

If you actually have evidence of Christians imprisoning, torturing and maiming people then by all means start a new thread and we will discuss it.

Otherwise it's probably better to keep quiet.

JimiTime

monosharp wrote: »

Well since you seem to know the area, whats your opinion on Chinese persecution of Buddhists in Tibet ? Or the Falun Gong ?

Or what about Christian persecution of buddhists and to a lesser extent Catholics and others in South Korea ?

What about the Unification Church ? Are they all good Christians going to heaven ?

You do realise that all the above still does not translate to we 'couldn't care less'? Just because this particular thread deals with something specific, in no implies what you have accused us of.

JimiTime

monosharp wrote: »

Yes. I live an hours flight from beijing.
Alas, tis not allowed in the Christianity forum.

if its got no relation to Christianity, it would be silly to put it here unless you are looking for Christian views on it? I can tell you though, if whoever, is getting similar treatment to the ones mentioned by PDN, I think you'll pretty much get the same condemnation.

Actually I'm a big fan of Jesus, the man who spread good morals and a good message.

What was Jesus' message?

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

If someone does sign such a declaration then the authorities print it up as a propaganda tool. It is distributed to portray the idea that Christians are deluded confused people who change their mind at the drop of a hat.

Was wondering was it something like that, or was it something to do with being Christian itself.

Wasn't arguing for or against what this guy did, there are some things I would lie about and some things I wouldn't.

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

Well since you seem to know the area, whats your opinion on Chinese persecution of Buddhists in Tibet ? Or the Falun Gong ?

I think the persecution of Tibetans is absolutely abhorrent. It appears to be more on grounds of nationalism than religion, however, since Buddhist symbols are everywhere in China.

While I disagree with Falun Gong's teachings I admire their tenacity and fully support them in their struggle for human rights and their freedom of religious expression. The way they are treated is disgusting.

Or what about Christian persecution of buddhists and to a lesser extent Catholics and others in South Korea ?

So Christians are persecuting Buddhists and Catholics in South Korea? If you can produce evidence of Christians imprisoning, torturing or killing Buddhists and Catholics then I would love to hear it.

What about the Unification Church ? Are they all good Christians going to heaven ?

It's a bit off topic, but no, I do not consider them to be a Christian Church. They reject just about every tenet and belief of orthodox Christianity.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I would assume that it is because some people feel so compelled by the truth that they have to tell it. If you are a Star Trek fan (it is the internet, after all!) this might resonate with you.

I think PDN's reason seems more likely (fear of one's words being using in support of an oppressive regime). If it is simply in order not to tell a lie I think that is a bit silly myself.

JimiTime

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

This crosses the line, Jimi.

Fair enough. I've ammended the offending post for you.

Fanny Cradock

Did you shake his hand? He'll probably settle for a hug!

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

So Christians are persecuting Buddhists and Catholics in South Korea? If you can produce evidence of Christians imprisoning, torturing or killing Buddhists and Catholics then I would love to hear it.

Christians in Korea tend to attack and burn down Buddhist temples, which thankfully results in less loss of life than other forms of attacks, but some Buddhists have died as far as I know.

The worrying think about Christian persecution of Buddhists in Korea is that the government seem to have largely ignored it.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

I think PDN's reason seems more likely (fear of one's words being using in support of an oppressive regime). If it is simply in order not to tell a lie I think that is a bit silly myself.

Personally, 'if' I had the courage not to lie in such a scenario , it would be for a few reasons, but one of them would be the honesty issue.

dapo1981

Just a quick question for the OP. What's the difference between the official church and the 'underground' church you're talking about? I know that the govt. wont recognise vatican appointed bishops there but if the persecution is so bad then people could just worship in the official churches, it being the same christ and all. I'm not a christian myself but I lived in China for a couple of years and there was a church on my street where I could have attended services should I have wished.

Is the persecution less on religious grounds and more on political grounds (Chinese State vs Vatican State)?

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

Christians in Korea tend to attack and burn down Buddhist temples, which thankfully results in less loss of life than other forms of attacks, but some Buddhists have died as far as I know.

The worrying think about Christian persecution of Buddhists in Korea is that the government seem to have largely ignored it.

:eek: Never heard of this before. Any links?

JimiTime

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Did you shake his hand? He'll probably settle for a hug!

No, he said he might catch christianity off me*:)

*conversation may not have occured

Fanny Cradock

I found the following on Wiki

During the 1990s, conflicts between the South Korean government and Buddhist leaders, and Christian denominations continued. The government accused Buddhist monks of immorality and some Christians used this to forward their missionary work. Some religious gatherings have even turned violent, with statues of Buddha and Dangun, the founder of Korea, being vandalized.

There was also a rash of temple burnings in the 1980s and 1990s, and attacks on Buddhist artwork have continued. In one instance, a Christian minister used a microphone on a cord as a bolo weapon and smashed temple paintings and a statue. In other instances, red crosses have been painted on temple walls, murals, and statues. Buddha statues have also been decapitated. Furthermore, students at Buddhist universities report aggressive attempts to convert them to Christianity on campus, especially near campus temples. See Frank Tedesco's "Questions for Buddhist and Christian Cooperation in Korea," Buddhist-Christian Studies 17 (1997).

PDN

dapo1981 wrote: »

Just a quick question for the OP. What's the difference between the official church and the 'underground' church you're talking about? I know that the govt. wont recognise vatican appointed bishops there but if the persecution is so bad then people could just worship in the official churches, it being the same christ and all. I'm not a christian myself but I lived in China for a couple of years and there was a church on my street where I could have attended services should I have wished.

Is the persecution less on religious grounds and more on political grounds (Chinese State vs Vatican State)?

In the official churches the government appoints leaders, and tells them what to preach. Any part of the Bible that is seen as contrary to government policy is never mentioned. In the past the government has appointed atheists to leadership positions in the official churches in order to deliberately run them poorly and ineffectively. Tens of millions of christians in China refuse to participate in such a sham.

Fanny Cradock

JimiTime wrote: »

No, he said he might catch christianity off me*:)

Heavens above :eek:

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

:eek: Never heard of this before. Any links?

"Christian attacks on Buddhists Korea" in Google will get you loads, for example

http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/pic1/list.html

From Wikipedia

During the 1990s, conflicts between the South Korean government and Buddhist leaders, and Christian denominations continued. The government accused Buddhist monks of immorality and some Christians used this to forward their missionary work. Some religious gatherings have even turned violent, with statues of Buddha and Dangun, the founder of Korea, being vandalized.

There was also a rash of temple burnings in the 1980s and 1990s, and attacks on Buddhist artwork have continued. In one instance, a Christian minister used a microphone on a cord as a bolo weapon and smashed temple paintings and a statue. In other instances, red crosses have been painted on temple walls, murals, and statues. Buddha statues have also been decapitated. Furthermore, students at Buddhist universities report aggressive attempts to convert them to Christianity on campus, especially near campus temples. See Frank Tedesco's "Questions for Buddhist and Christian Cooperation in Korea," Buddhist-Christian Studies 17 (1997).

On and off, sectarian tensions between Christians and Buddhists occasionally rises due to what was seen by a tendency of the government officials–many of whom are Christians to tilt the political balance in favour of Christians over Buddhists which has occasionally led to discontent over some quarters.[1] Of particular note was after Lee Myung-bak's ascendency to Presidency, Buddhists drew flak over the high proportion of Christians favouring over Buddhists in the public sector–particularly the cabinet whereby there were 12 Christian ministers to only one Buddhist minister within his cabinet[2] among other reported incidences.[3]

JimiTime

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I found the following on Wiki

Cheers. What a confused bunch mankind are! I find it so frustrating!:(

Fanny Cradock

JimiTime wrote: »

Cheers. What a confused bunch mankind are! I find it so frustrating!:(

Indeed, though it's never been any different.

I haven't yet been able to find any murders linked to the sectarian violence. So far, and it does appear to have eased in recent years, it seems as if the violence is mostly focused on property.

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Indeed, though it's never been any different.

I haven't yet been able to find any murders linked to the sectarian violence. So far, and it does appear to have eased in recent years, it seems as if the violence is mostly focused on property.

Still pretty despicable, of course.

Fanny Cradock

Most certainly. This is where I feel that deep introspection and Ecumenism within Christianity can really help.

postcynical

dapo1981 wrote: »

Just a quick question for the OP. What's the difference between the official church and the 'underground' church you're talking about? I know that the govt. wont recognise vatican appointed bishops there but if the persecution is so bad then people could just worship in the official churches, it being the same christ and all. I'm not a christian myself but I lived in China for a couple of years and there was a church on my street where I could have attended services should I have wished.

Is the persecution less on religious grounds and more on political grounds (Chinese State vs Vatican State)?

As a further answer to this from a Catholic viewpoint, there are two Catholic churches in China, the Roman Catholic and the Chinese Catholic. Loosely speaking the Chinese Catholic Church is not recognised by Rome because the Pope does not authorise the Bishops. You know who does! There are prominent Chinese Catholic Churches in major cities eg Beijing is one where I worshipped.

The Churches who are in communion with Rome are underground. I've stayed with families who have pictures of the sacred heart on the wall, alongside picture of the Four Horsemen of The Revolution and various revolutionary heroes. Really weird juxtaposition. It reminded me a little bit of old fashioned houses in Ireland where the 7 signatories of the Proclamation would be on the wall beside the Virgin Mary. Except this was in a shack in the mountains. I don't know why these people invited me stay in their houses as I was wary not to proselytise or identify myself as a Christian while in China.

In urban China I could not get over how many young atheist intellectuals were curious about Christianity. Sincerely curious and very open minded.

studiorat

Trying to organize groups of people under any non-Government sanctioned leadership in China could be hairy enough thing to be doing I'd imagine.

I'd like to ask a question or two. How are these underground Christians intending to handle the appointment of their Religious leaders? And are they looking for specific rights to practice their religion, here they may need exemption from Chinese law? Issues of contraception and the one child law for example.