Performance of cleats v's straps v's flat pedals

fago

I had a search around and couldn't find a definitive answer.

I'm looking for a rough comparison between the cycling efficiency between using the proper cycling shoes, straps or plain flat pedals.

- roughly what percentage of difference does using cleats make?
- is it a factor of terrain i.e. they make climbing more efficient.

I'm looking at investing in a road bike and am interesting to know what difference they make over a cyclist's base fitness

DirkVoodoo

I don't know of any studies done, but they make a significant improvement on climbs because you can obviously do more work per stroke. I don't think it's as simple as saying "twice as effective" because different muscles are obviously coming into play, but there is little reason not to get cleats if you are considering road cycling of any considerable length.

Sean02

Hard to see many advantages for cage and straps other that you dont need special shoes. Many cyclist who have'nt changed over ,and their are very few will tell you they are nerveous concerning quick release. I would love to get Sean Kelly's opinion as I beleive he was the last pro to change to cleates. Was there financial reasons why he did'nt?.

Chips Lovell

Sean02 wrote: »

I would love to get Sean Kelly's opinion as I beleive he was the last pro to change to cleates. Was there financial reasons why he did'nt?.

I read that he just didn't fancy the change. Doubt that money came into play.

Lumen

Clipless pedals are just better. That's all you need to know. It's like riding your bike bareback.

Gavin

Lumen wrote: »

Clipless pedals are just better. That's all you need to know. It's like riding your bike bareback.

What's with all these equine metaphors eh, you some sort of horsey nut? Down with that sort of thing

Lumen

Gavin wrote: »

What's with all these equine metaphors eh, you some sort of horsey nut? Down with that sort of thing

Horses?

penexpers

I tried clipless for a while and never really got used to the feel and never really liked it. I now have a "decent" set of platform pedals (DMR V8) and use shoes with vulcanized rubber base (think Vans skate shoes) and I think it's pretty close to being clipless only with a bit more freedom. I plan on getting some Five Tens when I have some more cash which by all accounts are better than clipless.

I would never go back to using toe clips though.

littleknown

clipless are the business, use toe straps as a minimum, useful in cities etc < without the cord bit> but definitely for road or off road clipless are way better,

p

I've heard 10-20% from friends, but don't know where they got their info.

Going on a long trip where you're cycling for hours though they're definitely handy, even if just for the fact that you don't need to use any energy trying to keep your feet in place.

Also, i've heard that normal cycling uses 2 muscle groups, but when you've clips then you use 3 muscle groups, and use muscles pulinng back up as well as just pushing down.

blorg

At least give clipless a try, if you are not racing might be an idea to start with SPDs (MTB system) as the shoes are walkable in and very easy to clip in and out of. If doing this get the cheapest Shimano pedals you can find, they basically all work the same with the more expensive ones being lighter. You can always give them up if you don't like them, they should be easy enough to sell on.

The likes of the DMR flats will give you good retention of your foot position but will not help you with a circular pedalling technique, you will not be able to pull back and up with them. This technique really is a lot more efficient and is only possible with clipless (or with toe clips used the traditional/racing way.)

Don't go near toe clips and straps, if left loose they are of only slight use to your pedal stroke; although they will keep your foot in position you won't really be able to pull back and up. Note when racers used this system (it is still used on the track) they used special shoes with plates that effectively locked into the pedal; the toe straps were then tightened to the extent that to disengage the rider had to reach down and undo the straps with their hands... Hopefully you are starting to see why these are not a good idea

Even if left relatively loose they are far more difficult to disengage from than clipless and if you crash you very likely won't come out; I am still nursing a knee injury from taking a corner too fast in the wet on my hack bike (with toeclips, so I can use whatever shoes.) Bike slid out and I went down with it, firmly attached. With clipless, I would have just popped out and doubt the injury would have been half as bad (I have crashed often enough in clipless to know what happens )

Civilian_Target

I still use toeclips, just because I can't really carry a pair of shoes to work with me, and they are still a big improvement over flat pedals. They keep everything in line for you, and you can push laterally as well as vertically which is an improvement.

Also, because your are forced into having your toe on the pedal instead of your foot, you automatically improve your cadence.

FrankGrimes

blorg wrote: »

At least give clipless a try, if you are not racing might be an idea to start with SPDs (MTB system) as the shoes are walkable in and very easy to clip in and out of. If doing this get the cheapest Shimano pedals you can find, they basically all work the same with the more expensive ones being lighter. You can always give them up if you don't like them, they should be easy enough to sell on.

The likes of the DMR flats will give you good retention of your foot position but will not help you with a circular pedalling technique, you will not be able to pull back and up with them. This technique really is a lot more efficient and is only possible with clipless (or with toe clips used the traditional/racing way.)

Don't go near toe clips and straps, if left loose they are either of only slight use to your pedal stroke; although they will keep your foot in position you won't really be able to pull back and up. Note when racers used this system (it is still used on the track) they used special shoes with plates that effectively locked into the pedal; the toe straps were then tightened to the extent that to disengage the rider had to reach down and undo the straps with their hands... Hopefully you are starting to see why these are not a good idea

Even if left relatively loose they are far more difficult to disengage from than clipless and if you crash you very likely won't come out; I am still nursing a knee injury from taking a corner too fast in the wet on my hack bike (with toeclips, so I can use whatever shoes.) Bike slid out and I went down with it, firmly attached. With clipless, I would have just popped out and doubt the injury would have been half as bad (I have crashed often enough in clipless to know what happens )

+1 on that - same advice blorg gave me this time last year and I went for SPD and am glad I did as it really helps on climbs. Have a pair of mountain bike shoes for commuting and hard soled road shoes for long rides.

Important to note that you can loosen the tightness on the pedals at the start as you get used to it (or when in traffic when you're more likely to need to stop in a hurry) and then increase the tightness as you progress to squeeze more energy efficiency out of them (I haven't tightened mine much as I rarely pop out of them and am reassured at how easy it is to get out of them).

stuf

nice cheap pair of SPD pedals on Wiggle:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Wellgo_WPD823_SPD_Pedals/5360006646/

I've just taken delivery of a pair and they seem solid enough - wellgo make pedals for some bigger brands and they get very good reviews. Haven't used them yet as the bike they're for is out of action at the moment.

I recently moved from toe clips to SPDs on my fixer after resisting for ages and only wish I'd done it sooner - clipless all the way

@Civilian_Target - can you leave a pair of shoes in work?

concussion

After 9 years I finally changed from V8's to SPDs on my MTB - never been happier, loved them so much that when I broke one of the shoes I didn't want to go back out on the flats!

Gavin

Powerstrps are a great alternative to cages, similar motion as cleats to disengage and they lock quite tight.

Vélo

Gavin wrote: »

What's with all these equine metaphors eh, you some sort of horsey nut? Down with that sort of thing

What's with the long face?

thebouldwhacker

HEY! lay off, its a great sport......:mad:

Its more than just a metaphor to those who love it.....:D

Vélo

Here's me.

img006.jpg

img007.jpg

I wouldn't be as good as those bears though.

Chips Lovell

A jockey? Tell me you're a good climber Aquinas.

Vélo

I couldn't tell you. I've never really tried one, I don't think you can call the hill of Tara a real hill. When coming from the Kilmessan side it's only 1.8km's long but it is steep enough and I've no problem with that. I'm only getting to commute at the moment as there's always something on with the the kids at the weekends. I do plan on upping my distance and then start doing the Boards spins soon, so I suppose I'll find out then:eek:

Vélo

For anyone that's into racing the 1st picture is of Culture Vulture. It won the French 1,000 Guineas in 1992.

rottenhat

There have been some studies done on pros, and at least one suggests that this business of pulling on the upstroke is all my eye - the most efficient pedalling motion involves unweighting the foot on the upstroke and no more. The advantages from cycling shoes derive primarily from the stiffness of the sole of the shoe, and the advantages of clipless pedal systems are in limiting redundant motion. As Blorg implies, the difference between clipless and clips/straps can be rendered marginal if you run the straps tight but then they can be a bugger to get out of, so no sane person does except in contexts like track cycling.

I don't think the difference between clips and clipless in a stiff-soled pair of shoes is massive, but the difference between that and flats with spongy-soled runners is quite noticeable. Since cycling shoes are no longer designed to work with cage-style pedals, it's hard to get a decent set up with clips so (with some regret) I'm thinking of going back to clipless.

Lumen

rottenhat wrote: »

Since cycling shoes are no longer designed to work with cage-style pedals, it's hard to get a decent set up with clips so (with some regret) I'm thinking of going back to clipless.

"This shoe is as comfortable being used with toe clip pedals as it is walking for the coffee shop or bar."

rottenhat

Lumen wrote: »

"This shoe is as comfortable being used with toe clip pedals as it is walking for the coffee shop or bar."

Begone, tempter....

Gavin

fago

rottenhat wrote: »

There have been some studies done on pros, and at least one suggests that this business of pulling on the upstroke is all my eye - the most efficient pedalling motion involves unweighting the foot on the upstroke and no more.

Interesting stuff - thanks for the responses. So changing from flats to cleats won't make a massive difference.

dave2pvd

rottenhat wrote: »

There have been some studies done on pros, and at least one suggests that this business of pulling on the upstroke is all my eye

Try telling Mark Cavendish that.

Please quote your sources; I'd very much like to read these studies.

Lumen

Gross cycling efficiency is not altered with and without toe-clips.

Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling.

Effect of pedaling technique on mechanical effectiveness and efficiency in cyclists.

edit: Note efficiency vs effectiveness - pulling up is apparently more effective, but not more efficient, so of benefit during sprinting. Mark Cavendish is known for sprinting?

hynesie

fago wrote: »

Interesting stuff - thanks for the responses. So changing from flats to cleats won't make a massive difference.

Changing from flats to cleats will make a massive difference.
There was a good article linked here a while back about the most efficient pedaling technique, and it did say that unweighting the pedal on the upward part of the stroke is the most efficient than pulling it also gave information on what to do for the remainder of the stroke. However, the upward portion of the stroke is only 1/4 of the total stroke and in order to get the most efficient total pedal stroke cleats are a must.

niceonetom

fago wrote: »

So changing from flats to cleats won't make a massive difference.

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.

-Bertrand Russell

I think you've cherry picked the opinions in this thread that confirm your initial prejudice.

Every cyclist seems to make the progression from flats to some sort of foot-retention, and they nearly all report improved power and feeling of effectiveness, myself included.

I've never known someone to go back to riding flats having used foot-retention for some time (except maybe in mountain biking where the ability to put your foot down may actually be faster/safer in some situations).

That alone is suggestive of what is better, more comfortable and faster.

I've gotten to the stage where I hate riding without spds, I keep lifting my feet off the pedals at the back of the stroke and it just feels awful, like running in flip-flops or something.

fago

niceonetome:

I took from the information I read that the change wasn't going to make a "massive difference".

I don't feel that strongly about either, I was just interested to know what the performance improvement would be going from one t'other.

Obviously there are advantages as have been outlined here, and studies linked, and it seems to me the improvement is a combination of:
- some additional power on the 1/4 upstroke
- better efficiency due to optimal positioning on the pedal and a direct connection so no power loss due to soft shoes.

rottenhat

Lumen wrote: »

edit: Note efficiency vs effectiveness - pulling up is apparently more effective, but not more efficient, so of benefit during sprinting. Mark Cavendish is known for sprinting?

I think this draws the distinction very well - effectiveness will be the key issue in certain performance situations but I would say for most us, efficiency will be more important, and that's mostly about keeping the foot in the right place, reducing the loss of force in the power transfer from foot to pedal, and a smooth pedaling motion that avoids redundant movements. It's hard to argue that clipless systems don't help with that on all fronts.

I just don't think the difference between clips/straps and clipless is as big as many people think, and I like being able to walk in the same shoes I cycle in.

dave2pvd

Lumen wrote: »

Gross cycling efficiency is not altered with and without toe-clips.

Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling.

Effect of pedaling technique on mechanical effectiveness and efficiency in cyclists.

edit: Note efficiency vs effectiveness - pulling up is apparently more effective, but not more efficient, so of benefit during sprinting. Mark Cavendish is known for sprinting?

Thanks Lumen. That's pretty enlightening.

So basically, if you race mass start events (you'll be out of the saddle every now and again), you ought to have foot retention: "When the participants were instructed to pull on the pedal during the upstroke, mechanical effectiveness was greater (index of force effectiveness=62.4+/-9.8%) and gross efficiency was lower (gross efficiency=19.0+/-0.7%)".

TinyExplosions

niceonetom wrote: »

I've never known someone to go back to riding flats having used foot-retention for some time (except maybe in mountain biking where the ability to put your foot down may actually be faster/safer in some situations).

{hand up} I have, for exactly the MTB related reason you state -apart from that, it's clipless all the way, though I don't mind using toe clips/straps

blorg

There are also safety benefits, they keep your foot securely attached to the pedal. Without them there are situations you can become dislodged. Bad road surfaces, slipping. Out of the saddle in particular is a lot safer clipless.

A common bit of advice heard regarding better pedalling technique is to practice a sort of backwards motion as if you are scraping crap off your shoe (or a moonwalk, if you are that way inclined.) This is only really helpful with clipless. Personally I find I go immediately faster when doing this versus not. It uses different muscles.

rottenhat

I had a pair of old Sidi touring shoes at one point that had a ridged section in the sole that the edge of a cage pedal would slot into and I thought they were the business but I wore them into the ground and of course they don't make them any more. There was a Carnac shoe that was much the same that you could get from SJS but I think that's also gone.

You know, the more I think about those Dromarti shoes, the more tempted I am to make Lumen's day and buy them.

Lumen

rottenhat wrote: »

You know, the more I think about those Dromarti
shoes, the more tempted I am to make Lumen's day and buy them.

Ha!

I'd have bought them already, only I'd have to get a matching Pashley Guvnor, wooden mudguards and shin length socks. Thar be dragons.

rottenhat

Ah, but imagine the pleasure of riding your Ordinary through the hills and valleys before settling down with a package of sandwiches wrapped in greaseproof paper and a pint of extra special bitter to watch the cricket on the village green...surely you're worth it.

blorg

If you are buying special shoes anyway, why not just go clipless, which will work better? If you want to be able to use ordinary shoes, there are the double-sided variety (flat one side, SPD the other.)

This is a toe-clip shoe from Wikipedia BTW:

Vélo

rottenhat wrote: »

Ah, but imagine the pleasure of riding your Ordinary through the hills and valleys before settling down with a package of sandwiches wrapped in greaseproof paper and a pint of extra special bitter to watch the cricket on the village green...surely you're worth it.

Or riding through Castleknock and into the Park to enjoy a bit of Polo.

Fixie Polo that is or bike polo whatever one calls it:D

lukester

Lumen wrote: »

Ha!

I'd have bought them already, only I'd have to get a matching Pashley Guvnor, wooden mudguards and shin length socks. Thar be dragons.

They are a touch Chris Eubank alright

rottenhat

blorg wrote: »

If you are buying special shoes anyway, why not just go clipless, which will work better?

Style, old bean.

Actually, if I were to buy them, I probably would go clipless - they're drilled for standard road cleats.

Vélo

TinyExplosions wrote: »

{hand up} I have, for exactly the MTB related reason you state -apart from that, it's clipless all the way, though I don't mind using toe clips/straps

How do you find the flats for MTB'ing?

Lumen

lukester wrote: »

They are a touch Chris Eubank alright

There are insufficient acronyms, memes and re-captioned kitten pictures on the entire interweb to express the rage I feel right now.

lukester

Where's a LOL cat when you need it? :pac:

DirkVoodoo

Yup, I use flats on the mountain bike because I have only been out a handful of times and it's nice not to have to worry about unclipping every 2 seconds.

I remember the first day I went clipless I put the pedals and shoes on in college for my cycle home, I practiced clipping in and out for a few minutes (hilarious, I didn't know how much force to apply and thought I was stuck). The cycle home was nerve wracking, I even took a detour because I wasn't sure if I could start again from the lights at the top of Mt.Merrion ave.

1 year on and I would never turn back. I use SPD for commuting and my spins and it just makes life so much easier. Yes there is a noticeable difference in performance, I can't quantify it but it goes as far as saying "I am better with clipless pedals than without". Unclipping becomes second nature and not something you ever need to think too much about, most of the time you can manage to get going again without even looking down at the pedal.

In reality, there are no need for "Which is better?" threads, it is only a question of how soon you switch over.

TinyExplosions

Aquinas73 wrote: »

How do you find the flats for MTB'ing?

A little easier than clipped in, simply cos you can 'dab' your feet down. I suspect once I get more confident on Ballinastoe I'll move back to clipless, but for now flats are grand

Enduro

The vast majority of experienced (non-downhill) MTB riders will tell you that Clipless are much much better. They give you all the road advantages, with the additional advantage of more control over the bike.

A lot of DHers use flats, but whilst doing the start run at a DH race I noticed that all the Elite riders use Clipless.

So really, generally only beginners use flats for MTBing, for the same lack of confidence reasons as beginner road/commuter cyclists. Personally, I couldn't go back to using flats MTBing. The loss of control is horrific.

concussion

Enduro wrote: »

A lot of DHers use flats, but whilst doing the start run at a DH race I noticed that all the Elite riders use Clipless.

So really, generally only beginners use flats for MTBing, for the same lack of confidence reasons as beginner road/commuter cyclists. Personally, I couldn't go back to using flats MTBing. The loss of control is horrific.

Bingo - having my feet firmly attached (with the option of disengaing practically instantaneously) is a massive improvement. Any time I go up on flats now I'm a little upset because I know I could have done it better with SPD's. Still use flats for commuting though, simly due to the logistics of it all.

penexpers

Dragging old topics up.

I tried road clipless for a while but never got used to it or comfortable with it. I got some platform pedals and I finally got a pair of Five Ten shoes to go with them. This combination is pretty good, my feet stay firmly in place, just as firmly as with clipless. It's still missing the upstroke advantage of clipless but that's not really a big deal for me. I feel like I perform better with these pedals than clipless and it's another option for people who don't want clipless and want normal shoes but still want good performance