UFC 97 & Anderson Silva ***SPOILERS***

Turbo_diesel

Watched this & Silva's fight last night & the fight was one of the poorest I have seen. Dont know what Silva is up to lately he has been totally dissappointing in his last two fights.He still seems a class above his opponents but doesnt look like he is prepared to try & finish the fight. Watched UFC 97 with two non MMA fans but who are boxing fans & they couldnt have got a worse impression of UFC. For those punters in the US who actually paid to watch this on TV they must have been kicking themselves. The fans in Canada were also right to boo I would too if I had spent money on tickets to see that!I really hope the UFC get Fedor to liven things up as I think the last few UFC events have been poor.The money that the UFC are charging for tickets for UFC 100 are also extremly steep especially if you end up with an event like last night. For entertainment Afflicatons card in January seemed to be the best MMA event of the year so far.I wonder behind close doors will Dana speak with Silva regarding his poor performance?It cant be good for business or publicity with fights like that. Rant over! Anyone hazzard a guess as to Silva's poor form?

rovert

Well Dana did say last night was the first time he was ever embrassed as a promoter.

Silva has been lacking the explosiveness for a bit now.

Maynard

Personally I think the criticism of Anderson is, and has been way over the top. Last night Leites froze and was too timid to make a real spectacle of the fight. Anderson cannot be expected to continually add to his highlight reel with every fight, the expectations placed upon him by the fans and the UFC is unrealistic in my opinion.

What does it say for the match-making and the (lack of) depth of talent in the division? He is comfortably beating all that is put in front of him, and amassing new records as he does it. How can we continue blaming him?

rovert

Maynard wrote: »

What does it say for the match-making and the (lack of) depth of talent in the division? He is comfortably beating all that is put in front of him, and amassing new records as he does it. How can we continue blaming him?

Fair point, a lack of a challenge maybe affecting his motivation for fights. But still he should know what the score is in mainstream MMA and that is to put on an entertaining fight. That is in part what his job is and he failed on that count. I’m sorry but his job isn’t strictly to win at all costs despite what some people on different message boards seem to think.

_oveless

Has he lost his hunger?

Nothingcompares

i think anderson silva is a bad match up for everyone else in the 185 division (although i fancy vitor belfort if they ever fought). he needs to move to 205 or gsp needs to come up. or just retire.

rovert

Nothingcompares wrote: »

vitor belfort

THAT FLAKE

Sorry for that outburst just watched his fight with Sakuraba a few days ago.

Maynard

Hmm. I understand why people are a bit miffed, but I think that there are some double standards being exercised. Big Nog went on a string of wins where effectively he was being clobbered to the mat and pulling out sub wins from a position where he had been taking a beating and nobody seemed to mind much. As long as he was winning people were happy. This is beacuse of who he is and what he has done in the sport, and the tailored expectations that come with a fighter who has seen as much ring-time as he has.

I don't think it's any conincidence that Anderson's best performances have come against Franklin and Henderson; quality opponents that (moreso in Hendo's case obviously) posed some serious questions for him.

A step up to 205 is more than likely the next move for him in the UFC I would think.

rovert

Maynard wrote: »

A step up to 205 is more than likely the next move for him in the UFC I would think.

Or a season on Dancing with The Stars given last night's performance.

Fromvert

Its **** like this that really makes me dislike him
http://www.mmatko.com/anderson-silva-sneaky-leg-kicks-thales-leites-ufc-97-gif/

Id like to see Hendo get another shot at Silva, after he beats Bisping which is going to happen. Other then that there is no one in the 185 division maybe Maia but his standup needs to improve and id like to see him get 2/3 more wins before he gets a title shot. Id love to see him fight GSP who I think would beat him and then there is countless fights at 205 for him.

amacachi

Maynard wrote: »

Hmm. I understand why people are a bit miffed, but I think that there are some double standards being exercised. Big Nog went on a string of wins where effectively he was being clobbered to the mat and pulling out sub wins from a position where he had been taking a beating and nobody seemed to mind much. As long as he was winning people were happy. This is beacuse of who he is and what he has done in the sport, and the tailored expectations that come with a fighter who has seen as much ring-time as he has.

Seeing some getting the **** thumped out of them in entertaining whether they win or not. If Silva was getting punched on the ground properly for 3 minutes then won with quickly with a submission it would be very different entertainment-wise than what happened last night.

Kent Brockman

I think Anderson silvas opponent is more to blame for this dissappointing fight, after all he can only beat whoever is put in front of him.

In this case he didnt have to do a whole lot and easily toyed with what was supposedly a formidable opponent.

Leites kept falling to the floor wanting Silva to follow him down to the only real area where he thought he might have a chance of winning and you could visibly see that Silva was getting pi$$ed off with this.

Why should he get involved with the other guys game plan when it was so easy to beat him on the feet? Surely it was up to leites to try and get at Silva and take the belt from him?
IMO Leites may as well have thrown in the towel after 2 rounds as he was only interested in a grappling match with an opponent who refused to be taken to the mat.

It was boring but Silva is hardly to blame as he was easily and obviously winning and didnt need to do a whole lot more.

Maynard

Kent Brockman wrote: »

I think Anderson silvas opponent is more to blame for this dissappointing fight, after all he can only beat whoever is put in front of him.

In this case he didnt have to do a whole lot and easily toyed with what was supposedly a formidable opponent.

Leites kept falling to the floor wanting Silva to follow him down to the only real area where he thought he might have a chance of winning and you could visibly see that Silva was getting pi$$ed off with this.

Why should he get involved with the other guys game plan when it was so easy to beat him on the feet? Surely it was up to leites to try and get at Silva and take the belt from him?
IMO Leites may as well have thrown in the towel after 2 rounds as he was only interested in a grappling match with an opponent who refused to be taken to the mat.

It was boring but Silva is hardly to blame as he was easily and obviously winning and didnt need to do a whole lot more.

Yep I'd agree with this. To paraphrase Eamon Dunphy; if it's guaranteed entertainment you want, go to the pictures.

orestes

Spoiler warning added to title.

Not everyone has watched that show yet folks, please show some consideration.

danlen

first lads i'm goin to have to agree with maynard and kent brockman, i feel leites was more at fault for the boring nature of the fight and a lot of the criticism os unfair.

secondly, TurboDiesel how can you say that the fans were entitled to boo the fighters?? no matter what excitement levels are in any fight fans have no right to boo fighters. these guys have been dedicating the last few month of their lives to this and arn't intentionally going out to p*** fans off. if i were to guess i would say that quite a few of those who booed have no idea what it is like to train so hard.

thirdly, i think the reason the fight was so boring was simply because of the styles and gameplans of both men. silva loves to counter and wait for his chance to strike accurately. leites tried to counteract this by waiting for silva to attack first.

overall i dont think too much blame can be attributed to anderson silva. i mean what can you do when everytime you almost catch your opponent he falls on his back and lies there??? he won the fight easily and he still gets criticised

calex71

i can see the points here , ur opponent dives to the floor a) do u follow like a dumb ass or b) do you stay on the feet and wait for him to get up and fight

Killme00

Those anderson silva legs kicks cannot be legal. very disrepectful show by silva imo.

ginoginelli

Although Anderson shouldnt take entire resposnibility for the poor performance last night, he definetly derserves some criticisim. His unwillingness to commit to an attack and clownlike octagon antics warrant it.

People say he is a counter striker, but trackback to his fights against leben, lutter, franklin etc and you'll see a far more aggressive Silva, iniating meaningful attacks, taking risks and clearly trying to finish his opponent.

Last night Silva fought to win. This mightbe tolerable if your a run of the mill type fighter, but this was Anderson Silva! UFC Middleweight champion,,,pound for pound best fighter on the planet!! With these kind of accolades bestowed upon Anderson, the fans and the sport deserve more.

I suppose all will be forgiven if he puts on a good perfomance in his next fight and maybe rightfully so.. In the meantime though he's lost a little bit of that mystique, along with his title as top pound for pound fighter in the world.

rovert

danlen wrote: »

secondly, TurboDiesel how can you say that the fans were entitled to boo the fighters?? no matter what excitement levels are in any fight fans have no right to boo fighters.

Says who exactly? People should be able to display displeasure about something they paid to see.

danlen wrote: »

these guys have been dedicating the last few month of their lives to this and arn't intentionally going out to p*** fans off.

Well they do have the discretion to at least try and make their fights watchable so your argument doesn’t wash with me.

danlen wrote: »

if i were to guess i would say that quite a few of those who booed have no idea what it is like to train so hard.

Still it doesn’t entitle them to be given undue reverence.

rossedge

Killme00 wrote: »

Those anderson silva legs kicks cannot be legal. very disrepectful show by silva imo.

not sure if there illegal, but would not want to be on the end of 15 of thoes, to be honest there career enders if they damage your knee!

The fight was a diapointment due to the fact that Silva just seems to want to committ just enough to win the fight!

DeadlyByDesign

I am not usually one to cry conspiracy here, but Silva was on target to set the record for consecutive wins here. Was it a case of not engaging for fear that Thales might better him? Either way, we all know that Silva could have and should have annihaleted him 2 rounds into it. Silva truth be told knew that himself.

Thales was an idiot falling to the ground at any given oppurtunity. He never tried to force a takedown of bring silva to the ground (which was obviously his game plan) at any stage really. Either way it was a poor showing on bothe their parts, and I for one have lost a little bit of respect for the spider

Burkatron

Just wanna throw my theory in here. There's already talk of Silva's imminent retirement. Is he just protecting his legacy at this stage? He's never lost a title he's won and COULD be trying to hold onto that record? I hope not but it's not that far fetched!

There was alot of articles on it
http://www.fightticker.com/story_0921081938_anderson_silva_to_retire_in_2009

Anderson Silva to retire in 2009




In an excerpt from an upcoming interview with Anderson Silva on Brazilian channel SporTV, UFC middleweight champ Anderson Silva addressed the future of his career.
Quote:
"I'll retire next year, I already gave my all. I don't need to prove anything for anyone and within one year I'll put my gloves aside."

I guess you can't blame the man. He is at the top of his game and at this time it doesn't look like anyone will be able to challenge him. We have seen this before many times in sports....a la Barry Sanders in the NFL and others. It will be interesting to see if this is still Silva's stance next year. With his recent jump up to 205, there are definitely some superfights waiting to happen.
I have a feeling that the UFC will change his mind. Silva definitely deserves to be making Chuck Liddell-type money. He obviously gives his all to make the company the best that it can be and should be rewarded for that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Silva#Possible_retirement

Possible retirement

In an interview with Brazilian SporTV, Anderson Silva has stated that he has already given it his all and has decided to retire in 2009.[36][37] However, in Sept 2008, Anderson's manager, Ed Soares, responded to the talk of retirement by saying that Anderson was contractually obligated to fight six more fights (the second was against Thales Leites), and would do so before retiring. Soares further stated that Anderson desires to retire when he is 35 which he turns on April 14, 2010.[38] This likely means that Anderson will fight while he is 35 yrs old, well into 2010 (as title-holders usually fight three times per year).

Killme00

rossedge wrote: »

not sure if there illegal, but would not want to be on the end of 15 of thoes, to be honest there career enders if they damage your knee!

The fight was a diapointment due to the fact that Silva just seems to want to committ just enough to win the fight!

IMO they are illegal. Potentially they could end Lietes career, horrible to watch. Front kick/stop kick/ stomp kick or whatever you call it to the front of the knee cannot be legal.

BeeSee

when was it again that these stories bout silva retiring came out first, before the cote fight?

i think its a mixture of silva's mind on retirement and lack of challenge posed to him. he knew he'd the fight won long as he didnt get caught in a submission.

either make superfights or just bump him up to LHW and have a go there. just a waste with him in MW at the mo

Fall_Guy

Killme00 wrote: »

IMO they are illegal. Potentially they could end Lietes career, horrible to watch. Front kick/stop kick/ stomp kick or whatever you call it to the front of the knee cannot be legal.

Definitely not illegal going by the MMA unified rules, but theey do look pretty dangerous alright.

I think that Silva is being harshly judged by those who are criticising his performance. Leites wasn't really willing to engage on the feet and any time it looked like getting dangerous for him he dropped to his back. He was not able to impose his will on Silva and bring the fight to where he wanted it to be, so why should Silva just jump into his guard and give Leites an advantage that he hasn't earned? He was right to let him up and keep working him over on the feet. On another night Silva could have fought the exact same way and just managed to catch Leites on the button with a high kick and nobody would be talking about him being boring. It just didn't happen tonight.

Killme00

For anyone who hasnt seen them. Definitely not legal imo. He landed at least ten of them in the fight.

Fall_Guy

Killme00 wrote: »

For anyone who hasnt seen them. Definitely not legal

There not outlined as an illegal technique in the rules, and rogan commented on them a few times without mentioning them being illegal. And yves lavigne was looking right at him landing the kicks. They are legal, i would think (whether they should be or not is another matter I suppose).

This is what ufc.com has listed as fouls:

Fouls: [Top]
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules

Edit: Looking at it again, I guess there is a case for it being judged under rule number 22, but The fact that the ref saw him do it repeatedly without warning and rogan commenting on how it was a very under-utilised technique in MMA makes me think that the move is not viewed in that way.

Fromvert

They are pretty nasty and could do an awful lot of damage. Imo they should be illegal.

Killme00

Fall_Guy wrote: »

yves lavigne

is awful.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

These two are odd.

rovert

Killme00 wrote: »

Definitely not legal imo.

How can you have an opinion about whether it is legal? It either is or isnt legal.

Killme00 wrote: »

These two are odd.

In what way?

Tim_Murphy

No idea if they are legal or not but def a sh^ty dangerous move.

I don't buy the 'it was the other guys fault' argument. From what I saw of it (fast forwarded some of it because it was boring) it looks like Silva was making zero attempt to finish the fight. He seemed happy to play around with the guy. In Ring antics are fine when they are followed up by something definitive, otherwise they just make you look like a d^ck imo.

ginoginelli

Since the first ufc i have been wondering why fighters never used the karate stalwart side-kick to the knee. Was it too dangerous or just impractical? Id heard from numerous "martial arts experts" how this was a fight finishing move and "deadly" in a self defence senario. That theory went out the window last night when I saw Leites take about 15 of them without even being downed..

In reference to the booing, I wouldnt participate in it myself, but can totally understand it. The montreal fans dished out their dosh to see the top fighter in the world defend his belt and instead were treated to a glorified sparring contest.

Booing is part and parcel of the ufc anyway at this stage and I think is a bi-product of the wwe style set-up.

Killme00

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

No idea if they are legal or not but def a sh^ty dangerous move. .

Any idea if they would be allowed in an Irish event? God i hope not, they could easily be carreer ending.

Killme00

rovert wrote: »

In what way?

seriously you cant see how these are odd?

Tito amoung others talk their way through their fights giving dogs abuse to their opponents, i guess they see it as all part of the war. Having a rule which isnt enforced is almost as bad as nothing having a rule in the first place.

Disallowing your corner from stopping the fight by throwing in the towel is odd to me because your corner should know you better than anyone and should be able to step in when it has become too much and the referee hasnt seen it (which has happened recently to Pete Sell).

Killme00

ginoginelli wrote: »

Since the first ufc i have been wondering why fighters never used the karate stalwart side-kick to the knee. Was it too dangerous or just impractical? Id heard from numerous "martial arts experts" how this was a fight finishing move and "deadly" in a self defence senario. That theory went out the window last night when I saw Leites take about 15 of them without even being downed...

The risk of injury is huge and if that injury occurs it could be career ending.

connie00

I have no opinion on the legality or not, but I've wondered before is it legal to aim a low kick such as a thigh kick at the side of someones knee ? That would be fairly dangerous too if it connected.

rovert

Killme00 wrote: »

seriously you cant see how these are odd?.

Even reading your reasons I don’t see why you are calling them "odd" exactly.

Killme00 wrote: »

Tito amoung others talk their way through their fights giving dogs abuse to their opponents, i guess they see it as all part of the war. Having a rule which isnt enforced is almost as bad as nothing having a rule in the first place.)

Fighters should have a degree of decorum when fighting. The rule is about the ethic of respecting the ref and the other fighter.

Killme00 wrote: »

Disallowing your corner from stopping the fight by throwing in the towel is odd to me because your corner should know you better than anyone and should be able to step in when it has become too much and the referee hasnt seen it (which has happened recently to Pete Sell).

The referee should have the ultimate digression over stopping fights. Of course refs aren’t perfect and some are at times totally incompetent. But this rule is in place to eliminate fighters getting their corner to throw in the towel as a face saving exercise when they don’t want to get beat.

Nothingcompares

it was my understanding, based on reading a post from another poster on this forum, that the reason why throwing the towel in is illegal is because it causes the match to be stopped due to DQ, which is essentially what you're trying to achieve by throwing the towel in. So basically you're in a fight and your corner man throws a towel in you get DQed, same thing happens if he throws a water bottle in.

rovert

Nothingcompares wrote: »

it was my understanding, based on reading a post from another poster on this forum, that the reason why throwing the towel in is illegal is because it causes the match to be stopped due to DQ, which is essentially what you're trying to achieve by throwing the towel in. So basically you're in a fight and your corner man throws a towel in you get DQed, same thing happens if he throws a water bottle in.

Yep a towel is just an "object" under UFC rules and holds no symbolic value like it does say in boxing.

Tim_Murphy

Killme00 wrote: »

Any idea if they would be allowed in an Irish event? God i hope not, they could easily be carreer ending.

I have no idea to be honest. It's something I should look into though, I used to have a pretty nifty side kick back in the day, it might be time for it to make a comeback! :pac:

cowzerp

:eek:Remember when Rogan was saying how fresh he was in the 5th and can keep the pace for 5 rounds.

5 Rounds of doing nothing, anyone could do that-was like a relaxed spar.:eek:

he waited over a minute before he even threw a weak jab that missed, that sums up the fight for me, he's fine when fighting lads who come at him but is not that great at taking the fight to an opponent, his job is to win but he certainly did nothing to protect his reputation.

Nothingcompares

Well one thing I think that comes into play is that if one guy starts trying to do some kick to the knee the other guy will probably shoot right back with a kick to the knee. Like if you were fighting in a rule structure in which kicks to the balls weren't specifically disallowed some eejit might try and aiming for the groin intentionally. I suppose in my limited understanding of the game, if one guy was trying to kik you in the balls, I'd pretty muh expect the other guy to start doing the same...

The Anderson Silva thing has got me thinking. Firstly he says he was fighting to a game plan and he's ultimately aiming to win the fight "as perfectly" as possible, thus I assume he means, take as little damage as possible. So when he does this engage/disengage mad **** I'm just thinking yeah, he doesnt care what people think, he's trying to win. In the same way, the wrestlers of old used to go for the take down and try and lay on top of the guy for the the round and get the decision. But, he does apologize at the end of press conferences to dana white (and maybe to fans too) for his performances. I heard a rumour that he was so frustrated about the cotes fight that he did 2 rounds of sparring after it (which might just be because the fight ended prematurely). So, what's he saying, he's fighting to his game plan but he's sorry it's boring? But he's going to keep doing it? To make it entertaining we need a striker that wants to hunt him down, but no one can do it without getting KOed with a counter.

Anderson Silva never looked like losing to Leites, maybe Leites only chance of winning was getting into a scramble on the mat and hoping to come out on top. So you could argue AS did the intelligent thing and never even went there, thus having a 99% probability of winning.

If GSP, fedor and BJ Penn started fighting like AS (which I think they could, but not as well AS) we'd have a lot of boring fights.

mirwillbeback

http://mmafrenzy.com/10074/greasegate-part-two-anderson-silva-accused-of-transfering-vaseline-to-his-chest-and-arms/

tell me there won't be a rematch :eek:

rovert

The good old days

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4iZ-NEz-mg

:P

ollieo

Those leg kicks by Silva looked nasty, I agree that they should be made illegal as you could easily injure an opponent using that technique.

dunkamania

Not trying to be smart, but you could end an opponents career with most MMA moves. If I had to take a shot to the knee I would rather take it front on, as opposed to a full force thai kick to the side, or a heel hook that i didnt tap to in time. I was a little surprised that anybody thought it was illegal.

Leite's grappling is in a different class to Anderson's, for that reason, the manner in which he won the fight ahould not be held against him in my opinion.

Also, Anderson didnt apoligise after. From FIghtlinker

Here’s what Anderson apparently said in Portuguese:

Contrary to his manager Ed Soares’ translation after the fight, Silva did not apologize for his performance.

“I did well in the fight,” said Silva in Portuguese. “I can’t always make you happy.”

Silva continued his condemnation of Montreal’s vocal MMA fans.

“Not everyone understands what they are watching,” Silva said. “But hey, you guys can boo if you want. You are paying my salary.”

And here is how Ed Soares relayed that sentiment:

“It’s unfortunate that things sometimes turn out that way, but when you’re not in here, it’s hard to tell what going on sometimes,” said Silva. “Sorry.”

amacachi

dunkamania wrote: »

Not trying to be smart, but you could end an opponents career with most MMA moves.

Exactly what I was thinking.

ginoginelli wrote: »

Since the first ufc i have been wondering why fighters never used the karate stalwart side-kick to the knee. Was it too dangerous or just impractical? Id heard from numerous "martial arts experts" how this was a fight finishing move and "deadly" in a self defence senario. That theory went out the window last night when I saw Leites take about 15 of them without even being downed..

Same here, could never understand why nobody went for those kind of kicks, I had assumed they were illegal.

cowzerp

dunkamania wrote: »

Not trying to be smart, but you could end an opponents career with most MMA moves. If I had to take a shot to the knee I would rather take it front on, as opposed to a full force thai kick to the side, or a heel hook that i didnt tap to in time. I was a little surprised that anybody thought it was illegal.

Leite's grappling is in a different class to Anderson's, for that reason, the manner in which he won the fight ahould not be held against him in my opinion.

A thai kick is more sore than damaging and if your used to taking them not so bad, i've never heard of any serious leg injuries due to them, the odd rib injury though!

heel hooks are a different story, i always thought that joint strikes are illegal but clearly not judging by the UFC rules.

ginoginelli

dunkamania wrote: »

Not trying to be smart, but you could end an opponents career with most MMA moves.

True.

I think also the fact that the kness are slightly bent when the fighters are in their fighting stance minimizies the target area and lessens the impact. At the same time I wouldnt complain if they were made illegal as they are a bit of a cheapshot..

pablohoney87

Joe Rogan Originally questioned the legality of the fron kick to the knee when brandon vera used it on jardine i think.
My own opinion is that it should be banned but I can see the Argument for both sides.

calex71

cowzerp wrote: »

i always thought that joint strikes are illegal but clearly not judging by the UFC rules.

rules say small joint manipulation is illegal i think

If silva had been more aggressive etc and looking for the win and got a spectacular KO would the kicks be such a talking point today?

My 2c on it, the kick could have been regarded as a stomp maybe? (guys in the game might have an opinion on that ) didnt the ref warn silva that stomps to the feet where bad at one point in the clinch? Edit : that could have been a different fight last night, but i denfiately recall that stomps to the feet where a no no there

Personally if i was hit once with that id be twice shy about the 2nd one