DIY wind turbine to power hot water

moose112

Hi guy's,

Looking for a little bit of help and advice!

I am a self employed electrician, lately some of my customers are asking me
about installing wind turbines. I have been around to a few different sites looking at domestic turbines and can honestly say "Proven wind turbines" were the only ones to impress me(bit pricey though) .

Q1 Anyone know of a Irish manufacturer i cant seem to find one anywhere.

A lot of people are asking about smart metering, i cant get a straight answer anywhere. My customers are holding off until the esb will actually get off their a**e and start buying electricity.

Q2 When will the esb start buying back electricity.


Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks:)

great

my aunt is really big into the whole green energy and she builds turbines.
http://www.buildyourownwindturbine.com/
thats her site. they have a forum so drop them a line and ask away.
(they were on nationwide a few weeks ago)

quentingargan

moose112 wrote: »

Hi guy's,

Looking for a little bit of help and advice!

I am a self employed electrician, lately some of my customers are asking me
about installing wind turbines. I have been around to a few different sites looking at domestic turbines and can honestly say "Proven wind turbines" were the only ones to impress me(bit pricey though) .

Q1 Anyone know of a Irish manufacturer i cant seem to find one anywhere.

A lot of people are asking about smart metering, i cant get a straight answer anywhere. My customers are holding off until the esb will actually get off their a**e and start buying electricity.

Q2 When will the esb start buying back electricity.


Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks:)

Hi, I'm manufacturing a 2.5kw turbine - inasmuch as anything is "manufactured" in Ireland.... The blades are made in the UK, the inverter in Italy, the generator in Korea (not China...) and on the first production runs, only the tower and controller will be Irish. We'll improve on that over time. I will give you the details on that by PM. But to answer your other questions;

ESB has made an offer of 9c per Kw Hr for electricity bought back. The Commissioner for Energy Regulation held a consultation process between Dec 16th and Jan 16th and are due to announce the outcome of that consultation any day now.

There is a discussion on all that here

I've had a Proven 2.5kw machine at home for 6 years. It's a grand machine, but as you say, pricey. They also need to be taken down and greased once a year and have their slip rings cleaned. For people like myself, happy to winch this up and down and do the work ourselves, thats fine, but if this was being done as a call-out, it would push the payback time into the great blue yonder.

But wherever you go, I'd avoid some of the cheaper options like the plague. Some Chinese machines have broken off the tower, blades have gone through the roofs of houses, guy wires snapped. In Ireland you need a really rugged machine on a free-standing tower...

The DIY turbines are great by the way. A friend of mine has one here, with the mechanical end of it made from brake-discs of an old car. I love to see that sort of stuff happening. There is another bloke in Omagh with a huge machine in his garden that he made himself - I think its about 6 to 8 kw! Q

paddyc

hello folks

I seen a wind turbine on an irish web site that can "help" heat the hot water in your tank.

I suppose depending on the amount of wind it will heat it to a certain extent and then the oil will heat it the rest of the way. I live on a particuilarly windy site.

Do people think it will work... saqy for example a 300w small turbine working at 50% will produce about 150w therefore based on a kettle off 3000w heating 1L from 20-100 in 4 mins. it would take the turbine about 18 times this for 1L so say about 1.25hrs, I would imagine over the course of a day and a night you would have the water heated to a nice enough level...



can anyone add to this for me or correct me, also does anyone know a supplier the company based in edenderry dont seem to be operating any more



thanks paddy

brian ireland

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=52134698

baldieman

Hi
Unfortunately, small wind turbines operate at less then 20% even on a good site. If you want heat, thats a high energy demand so you're looking at a much bigger machine. If you have a suitable site and no close neighbours, it can be done, but its a big learning curve. I'd suggest you read Wind Energy Basics by Paul Gipe.

zod

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVo0WvuX7K0

baldieman

zod wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVo0WvuX7K0

It's even worse then that, the suggested wind speed of 6m/s is at an elevation of 50m above ground, it's nothing like that at ground level.
And if you fix one of those to your house and it does work, it'll probably vibrate through the house and even damage the structure

Cabaal

zod wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVo0WvuX7K0

thats insane

paddyc

okay let me as a similar question....

I know its possible... but would it be feasible and worthwhile and painless to set up a stationary bike in the house, to be adapted, so that as you cycle you would would create electricity and have this linked up to the hot water tank to heat the water...

.. therefore no need for a turbine as it isnt too efficient. I would imagine that this other system would be far more efficient... anyone ever done anthign like this... I know my physices teacher when i was a kid had tried it. I myself am a science teacher so would have access to physics brains if need be


thanks for all advice paddy

baldieman

paddyc wrote: »

okay let me as a similar question....

I know its possible... but would it be feasible and worthwhile and painless to set up a stationary bike in the house, to be adapted, so that as you cycle you would would create electricity and have this linked up to the hot water tank to heat the water...

.. therefore no need for a turbine as it isnt too efficient. I would imagine that this other system would be far more efficient... anyone ever done anthign like this... I know my physices teacher when i was a kid had tried it. I myself am a science teacher so would have access to physics brains if need be


thanks for all advice paddy

If you think you're Sean kelly or Stephen Roche you might have a go
All jokes aside, you could use a bicycle to light a 20w bulb but it takes many 100's of watts to heat water, mainly because energy in has to be greater then energy out (losses) Solar water heating (tubes are best) is currently the most efficient means to heat water, other than burning something.

quentingargan

paddyc wrote: »

okay let me as a similar question....

I know its possible... but would it be feasible and worthwhile and painless to set up a stationary bike in the house, to be adapted, so that as you cycle you would would create electricity and have this linked up to the hot water tank to heat the water...

If you visit Sellafield's brainwashing visitor centre in Cumbria, they have just such a setup so kids can pedal furiously to get a light to work and thus be programmed into thinking it is utterly hopless to get electricity from anything other than nuclear power... :mad:

jimbuckleybarre

Hi,

I was seriously thinking of installing a Wind Turbines until I was quoted over 23K for a 5Kw system. After I recovered from my heart attack, I looked at the cost, it would be years before it started to pay itself back. I have seen postings complaining of the Irish prices.

My questions are;

1. Are Wind Turbines worth it?
2. Can you "do it yourself" and if so how?
3. It is possible to get smaller systems for running the pump/well?
4. Does anyone know of a system that I can purchase aboard and set up myself?

Jim

quentingargan

jimbuckleybarre wrote: »

Hi,

I was seriously thinking of installing a Wind Turbines until I was quoted over 23K for a 5Kw system. After I recovered from my heart attack, I looked at the cost, it would be years before it started to pay itself back. I have seen postings complaining of the Irish prices.

My questions are;

1. Are Wind Turbines worth it?
2. Can you "do it yourself" and if so how?
3. It is possible to get smaller systems for running the pump/well?
4. Does anyone know of a system that I can purchase aboard and set up myself?

Jim

There are plenty of suppliers overseas offering DIY kits, but in my experience you need to avoid the Chinese ones. I sell a turbine that you can DIY (Pm me for details) but you will still need an electrician to do the grid connection part from the inverter to the grid. The ESB doesn't care what happens upwind of the inverter.

Wind turbines are worth it if you have a good site and you need to estimate your wind speed at the proposed hub height. Again, if you PM me with your email address I can send details on how to do this.

However, even on good sites, you are looking at payback times of 12 years in most cases. That might seem like a long payback time, but it amounts to a return on investment (ROI) of some 8%, and what is good about this is that the ROI increases as energy prices rise.

If you applied the same formula to buying a house as opposed to renting, nobody would ever buy. Bad example in the current climate, but people prefer a mortgage of €1,500 a month to rent of €1,000 because the rent will go up, whereas the mortgage won't. A few years ago, people were buying houses with a ROI of 3%.

Unless you've met a real scoundel, a price of €22K for 5kw is in the ballpark for a good quality machine, provided it is designed for Irish wind conditions etc.

Smaller systems are possible, but do you want batteries or grid tie? Your pumps don't really use that much electricity over the year. A smaller system could be used to power some circuits using batteries and inverters, but I suspect the ROI would be a lot worse.

Q

baldieman

jimbuckleybarre wrote: »

Hi,

I was seriously thinking of installing a Wind Turbines until I was quoted over 23K for a 5Kw system. After I recovered from my heart attack, I looked at the cost, it would be years before it started to pay itself back. I have seen postings complaining of the Irish prices.

My questions are;

1. Are Wind Turbines worth it?
2. Can you "do it yourself" and if so how?
3. It is possible to get smaller systems for running the pump/well?
4. Does anyone know of a system that I can purchase aboard and set up myself?

Jim

Hello Jim,
Unfortunately Its not necessarily the turbine itself thats expensive.
Foundations, tower, cableing inverters, installation and other electronics add considerably to the price.
To try and answer your questions.
1. Depends on why you want it. Will it save you money? if you have an ideal site!
2. Yes, if your pretty good at DIY. I built a Hugh Piggot 500w 12v turbine, cost about 500 euro plus another 500 for tower. Electronics about another 500 plus 1000 for battries. From that I run fridge, TV and several lights (low energy of course) A couple of weeks ago, big match on the TV and the power goes down for miles around. I did'nt even notice untill my son came down complaining his computer went off. For me, thats the why!
If you want to know how to build, look up Hugh Piggot, Scotland.
Or p/m me.
3. I think 2. answers that.
4. I have considered buying machines from china, but after contacting others who have, I would'nt touce them.

mikeza

There is a large shift globally towards own energy creation, especially home solar and wind power generation. You will find a ton of products all over the web, offering "the best" home energy products. Some of them are good, some of them not... also depending on your specific needs.
The guys at www.cleargreenworld.com did a pretty to the point review around some of the brands..

The key is really to do your homework, do not be fooled by so many of the current offerings out there..

jimbuckleybarre

I think that's half the problem, there is no much information out there and so much BS as well.

I would like to become as close to independent as I could at home but I've been told that Solar isn't cost efficient plus living in Ireland - sun Ireland no no no! I know its not directly related to how hot the sun is but still if you live in Ireland you know what I mean.

Wind and rain on the other hand, well that's a different story. My problem with the wind turbines is the cost, how do I justify sending 20+K and the system wouldn't pay for itself for another 10 years. In 10 years time they will other technology to save energy so why I shouldn't I wait? It's really a catch 22, if the cost was cheaper I would jump at it but right now I'm not sure! I would like to become more green but becoming green seems to cost a fortune!

Jim

quentingargan

jimbuckleybarre wrote: »

I think that's half the problem, there is no much information out there and so much BS as well.

I would like to become as close to independent as I could at home but I've been told that Solar isn't cost efficient ....My problem with the wind turbines is the cost, how do I justify sending 20+K and the system wouldn't pay for itself for another 10 years.

Solar water heating has a reasonable payback time to my mind. Wind probably has payback well in excess of ten years - and I sell turbines (there are a few clowns out there promising five year payback - forget it).

But what is wrong with ten years payback? Or even twelve? That comes to 8% or 10% return on investment, and that is before you apply inflation. Energy inflation is likely to be higher than inflation in any other area.

I think solar photovoltaic technology will get a lot cheaper in the next couple of years. I can't see much room for movement in the price of solar water heating. Wind turbines may come down a bit, but the incentives supplied by the ESB (19c feed in tariff) are intended to compensate for being an early entrant to this game.

Some things are a long term investment - provided they are high quality and will last longer than that period. Take a house that costs €1,500 a month to rent. Would you be able to buy it for €180K? That would be ten years payback time. Provided something is durable, we should treat it as an investment, the same way we would a house. Uh... on the other hand, maybe not. Bad example, but you get the drift...

zeddicus80

Well - I suppose one of the things renewables have in common: They're a pain in the beginning, because you have to spend loads of money that will only pay for itself over a number of years. But as rightly pointed out - that's what investments are about.

As for the quoted price of a 5kW turbine, that is a decent enough price for a good system. The other point is - do you really need such a big system? A typical 5kW turbine on a good site (no sheltered sites or trees surrounding the turbine) gives you about 12,500kWh every year. Thing is - a standard dwelling (and I mean a house that doesn't use a heat pump or electric rads) consumes somewhere between 7,500 - 12,000 units every year.

So the question is what do you do with the excess electricity? Recently the ESB announced to buy back electricity for €0.09 per kWh + an additional €0.10 per kWh for the first 4,000 micro generation customers (that however is capped to 3,000 units per year over the next 5 years).

For domestic households - a simple 1 or 2kW system is enough to supplement the electricity draw. During a windy night you can still sell the excess to the grid and the investment is far lower than the 5kW turbines. A 1kW DIY turbine for instance is available at around €3,000 +VAT. The output of such a system is at 2,500kWh - appr. €500 worth of savings/credits. This means your turbine can pay for itself in as little more as 6 years (ROI 13.7%).

I use a 1kW system for my WE house in Wexford that I have equipped with some low energy electric radiators. The crowd that sold it to me was fairly knowledgeable to current regulations. You'll find them on www.csps.ie

I believe wind energy is great for Ireland - but again - it depends on the location and what you expect it to do.
Hope that helps!

bladespin

zeddicus80 wrote: »

Well - I suppose one of the things renewables have in common: They're a pain in the beginning, because you have to spend loads of money that will only pay for itself over a number of years. But as rightly pointed out - that's what investments are about.

As for the quoted price of a 5kW turbine, that is a decent enough price for a good system. The other point is - do you really need such a big system? A typical 5kW turbine on a good site (no sheltered sites or trees surrounding the turbine) gives you about 12,500kWh every year. Thing is - a standard dwelling (and I mean a house that doesn't use a heat pump or electric rads) consumes somewhere between 7,500 - 12,000 units every year.

So the question is what do you do with the excess electricity? Recently the ESB announced to buy back electricity for €0.09 per kWh + an additional €0.10 per kWh for the first 4,000 micro generation customers (that however is capped to 3,000 units per year over the next 5 years).

For domestic households - a simple 1 or 2kW system is enough to supplement the electricity draw. During a windy night you can still sell the excess to the grid and the investment is far lower than the 5kW turbines. A 1kW DIY turbine for instance is available at around €3,000 +VAT. The output of such a system is at 2,500kWh - appr. €500 worth of savings/credits. This means your turbine can pay for itself in as little more as 6 years (ROI 13.7%).

I use a 1kW system for my WE house in Wexford that I have equipped with some low energy electric radiators. The crowd that sold it to me was fairly knowledgeable to current regulations. You'll find them on www.csps.ie

I believe wind energy is great for Ireland - but again - it depends on the location and what you expect it to do.
Hope that helps!

Very good advice but your potential outputs are incredibly optimistic, a 1kw machine producing 2500kwh per year would have to be working in an area with an average windspeed of 9ms at 10m high (planning permission exemption) or go through the planning process and erect a 20m pole.

There are a lot of companies selling turbines quoting maximum outputs from their generators or as in this case using windspeeds you may only encounter once or twice a year. These guys reckon you'll produce that kind of power at 6m height, you'd need a windspeed in excess of 14ms to acheve that, hurricane season???

quentingargan

bladespin wrote: »

Very good advice but your potential outputs are incredibly optimistic, a 1kw machine producing 2500kwh per year would have to be working in an area with an average windspeed of 9ms at 10m high (planning permission exemption) or go through the planning process and erect a 20m pole.

There are a lot of companies selling turbines quoting maximum outputs from their generators or as in this case using windspeeds you may only encounter once or twice a year. These guys reckon you'll produce that kind of power at 6m height, you'd need a windspeed in excess of 14ms to acheve that, hurricane season???

Yes, the company on that link suggests that the turbine wil produce 30% of its capacity. Even wind farms on prime sites using 100m towers are usually on about 35%. 30% is well wide of the mark, considering that their standard tower for the 1kw machine is 6m high.

I would also be worried about using Chinese turbines supported by guy wires, without the use of a concrete base as suggested on that site. That is OK for mainland China, but better sites in Ireland would require a suitably engineered solution.

You get what you pay for. €3,000 for a system what uses guy wires, and if it is a typical Chinese machine has a survival wind speed of 90 mph, or €8,000 for a machine designed for Irish conditions, survival wind speed of 140mph.

I think either option will have a similar payback time, but it isn't 6 years unless you live on Lugnaquilla, and if you do, you'll find your turbine scattered around your neighbours fields next winter. :rolleyes:

Cheeble

They also claim that their turbines are "...cost-effective..."

That's a very difficult claim to support when they don't know anything about the location where the turbine will be installed.

If you generally think you have a windy location, you probably have.

Ask yourself, "Am I prepared to bet €20,000 that I have a windy location," just because you generally think it is.

Cheeble-eers

Traditional

go to greece and look at the roof tops , please !
all the stuff on the Irish market 99 per cent of it is rubbish , its the trow back of products that did not make the standard anywhere else , so go ahead and spend your money on flimsey solar panels that will blow off and damage your property .
most of the good stuff is made in Greece and the greeks have it right , you can buy solar panels there that can generate electricty, heat you water, at the same time , so stop peddling , every house in greece has them , so they know, and at quarter the price of here . head over and check it out

jimbuckleybarre

Hi,

First thank you all for the input, I now know more about wind turbines then I did at the start of the week.

I understand the points being made about this being an investment but it is still a very costly investment and my concern is what technology will come out in the next few years that could replace the wind turbine. Already from one posting I now know that solar technology will be changing shortly. Comparing this to a house investment isn't the same thing. A house is an asset that you can sell usually with an increase profit. Rent is dead money!

But that's not the main issue, first some one asked why 5W - because as you pointed out it produces more on average then a average house. I have 2500 sq foot house, all the normal stuff - cooker, dryer, TV, computer, Xbox, play station etc so if I'm to go down this route I would want to become as close to be independent from the ESB as possible.

The idea of putting a small wind turbine on the pump system was just to cover ourselves when the power goes and this happens a lot out by us in stormy conditions. No pump - no toilets, no showers, no running water!

I was sent some information on calculating wind usage in my area, to be completely honest I got lost after the first paragraph. It would be appreciated it anyone could tell me because it the area isn't suitable then this quickly kills the idea dead doesn't it?

Thanks again,
Jim

Traditional

pay back time in no time the Greeks are penny pinchers and they would not put their money into something that does not work .

jimbuckleybarre

Traditional wrote: »

... at quarter the price of here ...

Why doesn't it surprise me that the price here are always much higher then any where else. It's our own faults for accepting it!

Jim :mad:

bladespin

Cheeble wrote: »

Ask yourself, "Am I prepared to bet €20,000 that I have a windy location," just because you generally think it is.

Cheeble-eers

It doesn't have to be anywhere near as risky as you make it sound, there are a variety of things you can do to check the feasability of a wind turbine for your site.

1. Take a look at SEI's wind maps for your location, this will give you a rough idea if your site is suitable.
2. The Danish wind energy service has an on line tool that you can use to get much more accurate information with, take windspeeds down from 50m high to that at 10m high.
3. Get a terrain classification done, ie what obstacles will disrupt the wind on it's way to the turbine.

The turbine is a great idea and can genuinely reduce or even eliminate your ESB bill but you have to be realistic about the returns and take most of the sales blurb with a hefty pinch of salt, there are a lot of power figures floating about that come from a turbine running in a 12ms+ windspeed, bear in mind the average 'windy' site in Ireland has a yearly average windspeed of 6ms or less..

BTW many 5kw and higher machines produce very close to the same power as 2.5 or 3kw machines do in an average wind, it's only in very high wind that they provide greater gains.


If you have a site that has higher than this then by all means go for it, there's nothing like seeing an ESB bill halved.:D

bladespin

jimbuckleybarre wrote: »

I was sent some information on calculating wind usage in my area, to be completely honest I got lost after the first paragraph. It would be appreciated it anyone could tell me because it the area isn't suitable then this quickly kills the idea dead doesn't it? <snip>

Thanks again,
Jim

Quiet at work today so done a bit of calculating, rough figures but shouldn't be miles off.

5.31ms (at 10m high) average windspeed for your area, took a terrain roughness of 1.5 (fairly open farm land), for more accurate results I'd recommend a wind architects survey or to get someone like Quentin to take a look.

jimbuckleybarre

So is that good or bad ratio? If I go down the route of this, I will be getting a proper survey. Not sending 20K with my fingers cross only

And thanks.

Jim

bladespin

A site with a 5.31ms average windspeed would be pretty good for a turbine, you'd be looking at around 3500 units per year from a 2.5 - 3kw unit, I'd doubt if that would clear your bill altogether but it should cut it appreciably especially in winter when demand and the wind are at their highest :cool:

quentingargan

bladespin wrote: »

Quiet at work today so done a bit of calculating, rough figures but shouldn't be miles off.

5.31ms (at 10m high) average windspeed for your area, took a terrain roughness of 1.5 (fairly open farm land), for more accurate results I'd recommend a wind architects survey or to get someone like Quentin to take a look.

You're dead on Bladespin. We got 7.25 m/sec at 50m which equated to 5.31 at 10m hub height. That should give about 4,000 KwHr per year, maybe a bit more with a good quality 2.5kw machine. However an actual site survey would give more precise figures based on estimating the roughness class and taking in factors like obstacles from specific directions and cable losses if the site is a long way from the fuseboard.

To get a more precise survey than that would involve putting up an anemometer and few people go to this trouble for a small machine. Q