Declawing; please assure me it is illegal in Ireland?

sorella

Many times I have read of folk mainly in the US getting cats declawed, and the idea always appalled me.

This week, one of our cats has come in limping. She has somehow "lost" one of her dew claws on a hind leg. As some of the fur on her neck is missing, we think she has been "seeing off" an intruder and got the foot stuck somehow.

We are in a very rural area and our cats are tree lovers who come in and out at will. They tend to sleep on the bed.

Such accidents are very, very rare thankfully.

She is so sore and hopping on three legs; we are treating her of course. And she will in time be fine.

But the thought of any cat being subjected to this is giving me nightmares. The agony of it, and the needlessness.

Dusty87

Im not sure if its illegal but iv never heard of anyone doing it. What is the point in it? Is it incase of scratches or what, excuse the ignorance. Seems a bit cruel to take the ability of climbing away from an animal that likes to climb

Wolfsberg

sorella wrote: »

Many times I have read of folk mainly in the US getting cats declawed, and the idea always appalled me.

This week, one of our cats has come in limping. She has somehow "lost" one of her dew claws on a hind leg. As some of the fur on her neck is missing, we think she has been "seeing off" an intruder and got the foot stuck somehow.

We are in a very rural area and our cats are tree lovers who come in and out at will. They tend to sleep on the bed.

Such accidents are very, very rare thankfully.

She is so sore and hopping on three legs; we are treating her of course. And she will in time be fine.

But the thought of any cat being subjected to this is giving me nightmares. The agony of it, and the needlessness.

Just wondering what your point is???

star-pants

Not sure if it's illegal or not, but I've never really heard of it done over here.

My dog had to get a dew claw removed for her own safety and that was a procedure I'd never want her to go through again.

Also see here

R.D. aka MR.D

I worked in a veterinary practice and you would be surprised how many people would ring up a month looking for this done to their cats.

We always said it was illegal because it was cruel.

I don't know the exact legislation but I'm pretty sure its illegal.

Don't even start on the people who wanted their pets teeth removed ( not for a dental problem)!:(

Dusty87

i know a fella who bought a ferret once. It was a full grown ferret that never became tame. Until he learned how to handle it, he kept getting bites. You wouldnt believe the amount of people who suggested getting its teeth removed. He didn though.

Also would like to add im not a cat person at all (the mother is) but still think its cruel

waraf

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

I worked in a veterinary practice and you would be surprised how many people would ring up a month looking for this done to their cats.

We always said it was illegal because it was cruel.

I don't know the exact legislation but I'm pretty sure its illegal.

Don't even start on the people who wanted their pets teeth removed ( not for a dental problem)!:(

You don't do cat waxing by any chance?* Cat is molting all over the place in the last couple of months. There's hair everywhere!!!

*joking

bigpinkelephant

De-clawing is very common in USA/Canada, they do it to stop the cat damaging their furniture. No joke.

Horrendous practise and very painful, the essentially cut off what is the equivalent of the ends of our fingers.

doctor evil

Surely it's done under anaesthetic? Wouldn't want to be the one taking on a pissed off cat.

There are covers that go over the cats claws, lots of colours to choose from.

x Purple Pawprints x

I'm almost certain it's illegal here. Very common in Canada and America though unfortunately.

Wolfsberg

Jane_LS_88 wrote: »

I'm almost certain it's illegal here. Very common in Canada and America though unfortunately.

Ireland 1... Canada Nil!
Sorry Sorella, but this feels really good considering you always criticise how bad we are with animals in Ireland!

DaddyOSphynx

Most pedigree cat breeders in the States forbid declawing but they sincerely believe it is essential for people with potential immune difficulties (cancer patients, people with diabetes/AIDS etc). It has always amazed me that people otherwise so dead set against declaw do think under certain circumstances it is essential. God knows what they think people in similar situations in Europe do :rolleyes:

Declawing is illegal here but I have it written into my kittens contract that it may never be performed in any country on that kitten. I once had a South African lady visiting rescue kittens casually ask if the kitten would be declawed. I explained it was illegal here and considered extremely cruel. She had never really thought about it as it was just par for the course for her.

kazza90210

Declawing is not actually illegal under Irish law, but the Veterinary Council of Ireland recommends that its members refuse to do it. Members that declaw cats would be in breach of the Guide to professional behaviour and can be subjected to disciplinary action by the Veterinary Council.

anniehoo

bigpinkelephant wrote: »

Horrendous practise and very painful, the essentially cut off what is the equivalent of the ends of our fingers.

I totally disagree with this practice too, but to have it done it requires anaesthesia and isnt done in Ireland (thats advertised) but unfortunately it is a common practice in the US/Canada. It is abhorent but it cant be compared to having "our" finger ends being cut off. Yes its ridiculous and only for human cosmetic (non furniture wrecking/not killing wildlife reasons) but cats will function fine without its claws. Still totally unnecesary though just like tail docking..

Wolfsberg wrote: »

Ireland 1... Canada Nil!
Sorry Sorella, but this feels really good considering you always criticise how bad we are with animals in Ireland!

Wolfsberg...mmm...cmon you know its not a point scoring thing. Ireland just like so many countries all have their horrendous animal stories. Just because this isnt practised here doesnt mean we're any better...i dont need to list the reasons why.

kazza90210 wrote: »

Declawing is not actually illegal under Irish law, but the Veterinary Council of Ireland recommends that its members refuse to do it. Members that declaw cats would be in breach of the Guide to professional behaviour and can be subjected to disciplinary action by the Veterinary Council.

+1 Its not illegal but i have heard of vets who have done it...

bigpinkelephant

anniehoo wrote: »

cats will function fine without its claws.

No, they won't. How are they supposed to climb with no claws, or defend themselves? Cats generally take a swipe at something before they will go close enough to bite it, they literally keep threatening things at arms' length.

Chiaki

Ive heard of people getting teeth and nails removed from ferrets, cats, dogs and even snakes (teeth, not claws!) Some people just prize furniture over their pets

Emerald Lass

would it not be simplier and cheaper to either a) buy a scratching post or b) if a cat clawing at furniture appals you so much, don't get a cat????
I had a toenail removed once, without sufficient anathetic - seriously the most painful experience of my life, and the healing process was slow and painful. Wouldn't wish for any animal to have its claws/nails pulled out, anasthetic or not. The healing process is horrible and very debilitating.

Xiney

I have no doubt that my opinion will not be a popular one, but I will express it anyway.

I am Canadian and so is my cat, Theodore. He is nearly 4 years old and very happy. He has had his front paws declawed.

I will not apologize for this because while the surgery was not "necessary" it has resulted in a far more amicable relationship between us humans and Theo. He has not suffered from loss of "balance" as some anti-declawing people claim (cats don't walk on that part of their toes, it is retracted) and he of course has retained the ability to stretch his muscles by "scratching" things. He just grabs things with his toes, not his claws. In fact, a lot of the things purported by those opposed to the practise are downright wrong.

In fact, the only thing that has affected his quality of life is the fact that I didn't stick to my guns when the CSPCA advised me to neuter him while he was very young. I had encountered anecdotal evidence that this would render Theo fat and lazy... and they convinced me that this would only happen if we stopped playing with him, similarly the animal welfare types on the internet I knew. Well, surprise. He immediately after his neutering surgery, became pretty fat and lazy, just like the other cats that I'd met who were neutered young. So I wish I had allowed him to go through puberty prior to neutering him, but suffice it to say that it was a "necessary" procedure that lowered his quality of life.


He does not go outside, for obvious reasons. This results in a healthier, safer cat. And I challenge you to find a happier, more lovable feline. I sincerely doubt he even misses his claws at all.

Wolfsberg

anniehoo wrote: »

Wolfsberg...mmm...cmon you know its not a point scoring thing. Ireland just like so many countries all have their horrendous animal stories. Just because this isnt practised here doesnt mean we're any better...i dont need to list the reasons why.

I know you are right about the point scoring, but have you read Sorella's previous posts?... With all due respect it's as if we are a load of savages and the Canadians are a nation of Ace Venturas!

The Sweeper

Xiney wrote: »

I have no doubt that my opinion will not be a popular one, but I will express it anyway.

I am Canadian and so is my cat, Theodore. He is nearly 4 years old and very happy. He has had his front paws declawed.

I will not apologize for this because while the surgery was not "necessary" it has resulted in a far more amicable relationship between us humans and Theo. He has not suffered from loss of "balance" as some anti-declawing people claim (cats don't walk on that part of their toes, it is retracted) and he of course has retained the ability to stretch his muscles by "scratching" things. He just grabs things with his toes, not his claws. In fact, a lot of the things purported by those opposed to the practise are downright wrong.

But there is one thing that is correct: you opted for a elective, painful surgery for your cat to suit your lifestyle. Yes he healed up, and no he's not in constant pain, but you volunteered him to have a body part removed to suit you. You put him through the stress of the vet visit, the danger of anaesthesia and the pain of recovery to save - what, your furniture?

Xiney wrote: »

In fact, the only thing that has affected his quality of life is the fact that I didn't stick to my guns when the CSPCA advised me to neuter him while he was very young. I had encountered anecdotal evidence that this would render Theo fat and lazy... and they convinced me that this would only happen if we stopped playing with him, similarly the animal welfare types on the internet I knew. Well, surprise. He immediately after his neutering surgery, became pretty fat and lazy, just like the other cats that I'd met who were neutered young. So I wish I had allowed him to go through puberty prior to neutering him, but suffice it to say that it was a "necessary" procedure that lowered his quality of life.

A cat's metabolism will reduce by up to 30% when they are neutered. It matters not a whit whether or not you allow them to go through puberty first - the drop in metabolism is simultaneous with the removal of hormones. The only thing that allowing a cat go through puberty before neutering does is put it at risk of creating a litter of more unwanted cats.

And that drop in metabolism doesn't make your cat fat.

YOU make your cat fat. You're the one with the feed bag. If you're overfeeding, you'll have a fat cat. The lack of opposable thumbs means a cat can't open it's own cans or scoop its own kibble or prise apart the seal on the treats bag. If you have a fat cat, stop feeding it so much food.

Neutering also doesn't make your cat lazy. It will remove the drive in males to wander to seek out a mate, but it won't reduce your cats responsiveness to play. If your particular cat isn't a big player, that could be just its personality. As cats get older they will play less and sleep more - neutered or not. However in most cats you will get at least one burst of energy a day, lasting up to an hour, where they go bananas.

Your cat may be well loved now, but I wouldn't rehome a pet to you again in the knowledge that you will put it forward for elective surgery so it fits better with your lifestyle.

My suggestion would be that if a particular pet in some way doesn't suit you the way it comes, then just don't own a pet, as opposed to having bits chopped off it.

bunyip123

well said minesajackdaniels - i have had so many cats over the years, currently 5, all neutered young (apart from ones who i got who were old strays) and all fit, slim, healthy and full of beans. They never stopped playing or messing about. One of them is 11 and still goes mad for string.

They still all have their claws and teeth! I am *amazed* that this goes on. I was obviously living under a rock in all my years of knowing cats. i cannot understand how someone could contemplate it. Or where they come up with the idea Bizzarre. I am a firm believer that if you get involved with animals of any kind, you take what you get - you don't amend them to suit yourself. If they have claws they have a right to keep them and not have us decide. Humans are so selfish.

Xiney

Meh, I don't need to defend my animal care decisions. Theo is healthy, happy and we regulate his diet with a low calorie food - he's actually not fat anymore (although we have recently had to child proof the closet we keep his food in because he worked VERY hard to learn how to open it.)


Also, he does have opposable thumbs. Two of them - he's polydactyl.

The Sweeper

Can I ask why you had him declawed in the first place? I know it's not unusual in the US/Canada - apparently up to 25% of domestic cats in the US have been declawed. I find it bizarre because from what I've read of the recovery time and potential problems, it almost sounds like more trouble than I believe is caused by them having claws.

I have five indoor cats, all with teeth and claws, and they have their own specific piece of cat furniture to shred, climb, scratch and lie on. I'm building them a new one at the moment because the old one is on its last legs. When I look at the state of the old cat tree, I can happily say if I didn't have it, I wouldn't have a couch - but that tree has lasted two years at the mercy of between three and seven cats at a time depending what I'm fostering, and it cost $150.

(On a related note, I'm using a 10ft cedar 4x4 post cut into lengths as the columns on the new tree - let's see you break THIS you buggers...)

Xiney

We had him declawed because as far as I'm concerned, it makes cats better pets. Theo knows he can't really hurt me (well, he can bite me all he wants but apart from the odd well placed one it won't truly hurt) and so he doesn't try. I mean, the furniture thing is a bonus, but it wasn't the number 1 reason.

When we first got him, he was a poorly socialized stray kitten. It actually took about two years for him to stop being a complete asshole. I guarantee that if he wasn't declawed we would have had to give him up, because he was pretty evil. However, we moved him overseas and that changed his attitude: I think after an 8 hour flight in the cargo bay (they don't let you fly cats in the cabin anymore) he was so glad to see me it completely changed his outlook on us as an addition to his life.

Xiney

Also, let me just say that I've NEVER heard of anyone having a cat's teeth removed. I think that's just stupid, how would they eat?

The Sweeper

That's an interesting reason (and better than choosing the couch over the cat in fairness). I socialise feral kittens for rehoming so I understand what it's like to have a litter of spitting, hissing, electric toilet brushes. They do take a lot of time to socialise - hence they're handed off to fosterers.

The shelter I foster for have a white cat who was mistreated as a kitten and as a result is savage. She goes right for your face too - no mucking about with the hands or legs, right for the mush. At 10 years old she's a pretty hopeless case, but it's a no kill shelter so she's in the permanent outdoor enclosure with the other 'non rehomables' and she lives quite a happy life there - possibly all the better for having less human contact.

My cats are all rescued and are well socialised, but if my smallest guy were a dog he'd have been put down. I've had him since he was 4.5 weeks old, and up to nine weeks I had him with his mum, then after nine weeks just him with the rest of my hoard. He's about 15 weeks now, and it's taken me 11 weeks of daily, persistent handling, gentle chastisement, play and rewards to cut down on the hissing. Additionally the play he gets with my other cats teaches him that teeth and claws hurt, so he's a lot better than he was originally. Still though, his response is always fight, not flight, and he hisses at everyone who comes into my house, which is funny because he's terribly pretty and people like to greet him when they meet him, and to a man they take offence when he hisses in response.

Then again I have the time to spend socialising him, which a lot of other people don't have (which is I'm the foster person and other people aren't the foster person really.)

The worst injuries I've received from cats have been from back legs. The rear feet claws are far more blunt than the front feet, but still sharp, strong claws. If you have hold of a panicked cat and it's trying to get away, the rear feet will kick out with as much force as the cat can muster to spur its flight. I've come out with ragged injuries and bruising from having cats accelerate off me.

Xiney, if your cat bites a bit more because he's been declawed, be very careful of any bite injury you sustain. Cat bites are far, far more prone to infection than a bite from a dog. The obligate carnivorous diet of the cat means their mouth is a sewer second only to a human mouth and a bite will almost certainly result in infection. I would recommend anyone suffering a bad cat bite to go straight for a tetanus jab and a course of oral antibiotics. A bottle of 3% hydrogen peroxide is an excellent first aid tool and it doesn't sting, and a swab or pouring of that on a cat bite or scratch helps a LOT.

Xiney

He doesn't bite a lot at all. That's another thing that I've never found to be true in declawed cats (and I've known more declawed cats than cats with claws), they don't bite any more than cats with claws, which means it's pretty much rare unless you deserve it. If Theo is being bitey, he's probably a little strung out on catnip and feeling a bit frisky and playful. A sharp "no" is all we need to correct him now (it's all we've ever used, but only since he's become a social animal has it worked) and he stops.

He rarely bites hard, and the last time he did (about 9 months ago now, that's how rare it is), it was totally Mr. Xiney's fault (Mr Xiney was crinkling a newspaper to get Theo all riled up and Theo got overexcited and bit right through the paper as well as the better part of Mr. Xiney's finger... ouch!)

Xiney

Theo is the size of a medium dog, the cutest cat ever, and our pet. We adore him. He loves us, too. It took a few years, but patience is a virtue and it was worth it. I don't think we could have rushed him, but I doubt we would have been able to survive the aggression. Mr Xiney literally still has scars on his arm from a particularly nasty incident.





Seriously, he is massive.



The offending paws themselves

Dusty87

All i know is, my ma rescues cats and never once had to de-claw one to get it friendly. A little time and patience is all it takes. And she's never been bit or scratched.

Lauragoesmad

Xiney, I think you are very selfish and chose the easy way out when taiming your cat, all at his expence. I found a wild kitten that bit me really badly but it never even crossed my mind to have her declawed. One of the most wonderful things about cats is their ability to climb. You have taken this ability away from your cat and for the life of me, I just don't get you. You say you love your cat but you have done such a horrible thing to him. I know you have said that your cat is happy but I'm sure he would be a lot happier if he had his claws. Whether you would actually like to admit that to yourself is another thing. Also, your cats paws look weird.

Xiney

My cat's paws ARE weird. He has two extra toes on each - opposable thumbs - he is polydactyl.

However, if you ignore the thumbs, they look perfectly normal. This is because his paws are perpetually in the shape of paws with retracted claws.

I will not defend my animal care choices. I am secure in the knowledge that Theo does not suffer any ill effects from his declawing, and apart from some discomfort for a few days following the procedure, never has.

I only posted to explain my reasoning. If you are not willing to accept it, that is your choice. But I will not defend it.

Lauragoesmad

Xiney wrote: »

I will not defend my animal care choices. I am secure in the knowledge that Theo does not suffer any ill effects from his declawing, and apart from some discomfort for a few days following the procedure, never has.

I only posted to explain my reasoning. If you are not willing to accept it, that is your choice. But I will not defend it.

Thats because there is no reasoning under the sun that you could defend it with.
If you ever get another cat, will you get it declawed?

Xiney

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

Thats because there is no reasoning under the sun that you could defend it with.
If you ever get another cat, will you get it declawed?

Or rather I believe the arguments against it are simply not worth my time.

If we want to get into selfishness, where do we draw the line? Keeping birds in cages, fish in tanks, not letting cats roam free; all of these can be deemed selfish but are part of "pets". Owning a pet is inherently a selfish practise.

All my cats have always been declawed. I will continue to have all future cats declawed.

Lauragoesmad

Xiney wrote: »

My cat's paws ARE weird. He has two extra toes on each - opposable thumbs - he is polydactyl.

However, if you ignore the thumbs, they look perfectly normal. This is because his paws are perpetually in the shape of paws with retracted claws.

I will not defend my animal care choices. I am secure in the knowledge that Theo does not suffer any ill effects from his declawing, and apart from some discomfort for a few days following the procedure, never has.

I only posted to explain my reasoning. If you are not willing to accept it, that is your choice. But I will not defend it.

Xiney wrote: »

Or rather I believe the arguments against it are simply not worth my time.

If we want to get into selfishness, where do we draw the line? Keeping birds in cages, fish in tanks, not letting cats roam free; all of these can be deemed selfish but are part of "pets". Owning a pet is inherently a selfish practise.

All my cats have always been declawed. I will continue to have all future cats declawed.

Well I just hope for your poor cats sake, he never gets out by accident. I wouldn't like him to come accross a teritorial tom cat or even worse, a dog. He would never be able to defend himself.

And saying that an argument isn't worth your time. Fair enough saying you don't agree but saying its not worth your time. Whats that about?:rolleyes:

IMO, you are NOT an animal lover and if I had my way, the vet who declawed your cat should be stripped of his/her licence to practice because they are obviously not an animal lover either.

Also, just so you know, some cats have actually gone lame after being declawed. So please don't get anymore cats if you have to have them declawed.

Lobelia Overhill

Xiney wrote: »

My cat's paws ARE weird. He has two extra toes on each - opposable thumbs - he is polydactyl.

I, for one, welcome our feline overlord!

Jays he's a big pu... erm cat.

All the cats that my American friends had were declawed, one of them had been declawed front and back (ouch!) before they got her. The declawing was down to prevent the cats destroying the furniture. I didn't like to say "that's mean!" but I did point out that over here vets will not declaw a cat unless it's to remove a damaged claw, as it's considered cruel to take the cat's first line of defence against other animals away from them ... my friend's looked befuddled by the idea. They did keep their cats indoors tho'.

Aru

acording to our behavoiur lecturer declawing is illegal in most of europe along with other "mutilations" like ear cropping,tail docking(yup its not allowed except in a specific working breed seemingly and an irish vet can be called for disiplinery action if it was done "for cosmetic reasons")and devocalising as their considered inhumane and unnecesery cruelty
Iv never even heard of an irish cat that was de-clawed
However removing a dewclaw(extra digit) isnt unusual in some breeds of dog as it can cause medical problems

Aru

Aru wrote: »

acording to our behavoiur lecturer declawing is illegal in most of europe along with other "mutilations" like ear cropping,tail docking(yup its not allowed except in a specific working breed seemingly and an irish vet can be called for disiplinery action if it was done "for cosmetic reasons")and devocalising as their considered inhumane and unnecesery cruelty
Iv never even heard of an irish cat that was de-clawed
However removing a dewclaw(extra digit) isnt unusual in some breeds of dog as it can cause medical problems

Devocalising??? please tell me that isn't what it sounds like ??

kazza90210

Aru wrote: »

acording to our behavoiur lecturer declawing is illegal in most of europe along with other "mutilations" like ear cropping,tail docking(yup its not allowed except in a specific working breed seemingly and an irish vet can be called for disiplinery action if it was done "for cosmetic reasons")and devocalising as their considered inhumane and unnecesery cruelty
Iv never even heard of an irish cat that was de-clawed
However removing a dewclaw(extra digit) isnt unusual in some breeds of dog as it can cause medical problems

tail docking isnt illegal in Ireland its the same as declawing The Veterinary Council recommends its not done, if you know of vets doing it you can report them.

Devocalising is excatly what it sounds like, its an operation to cut the vocal cords so they produce no sound.

The Sweeper

It's the entire argument around elective surgery - surgery done without a valid medical reasoning. That includes declawing cats, docking tails on dogs that are not working animals, docking ears for appearance and cutting vocal chords on barking animals to prevent them making noise.

Hospitals will not allow us proffer our children for elective surgeries, as it's felt that we should not be permitted to make such decisions for those unable to voice their own protests.

When it comes to our animals, however, it's up to the legislature to pass laws to protect their voice. No law, and it comes down to personal preference.

Neutering is an elective surgery, however it has proven medical and lifestyle benefits to the animal. (Removes risk of ovarian cancer and testicular tumors, reduces the number of unwanted animals needing rehoming, reduces the urge to 'roam' and therefore reduces the risk to the animal of injury incurred while roaming unescorted, so on). You could argue that if an owner will be intolerant of a cat that has claws, then removing those claws is of benefit to the cat. The owner of a working dog will argue that its tail needs to be docked because of the possibility of injury to the tail while working. Some large breeds of dog benefit from removal of dew claws because the claws are large, protrude and are overgrown and if they catch on something they can cause painful injury to the dog.

The concept of elective surgery makes me feel ill. I could never have plastic surgery myself - this is perhaps because I am a surgical admissions clerk at a hospital, and I deal with thousands of surgery patients every year. I see the stress they are under, the intensive risk screening process because of the danger of anaesthetic, the pain, the slow healing process - the thought of undergoing that at someone else's behest makes me queasy.

Subsequently I will always support anti-mutiliation laws in whatever country I live. I believe that to cause an animal pain and stress as a lifestyle choice for you is animal cruelty.

And it's been said already on this thread - if a living thing doesn't suit you in the size, shape, colour, temper or smell that it comes in, then don't take it on. Leave it to someone who it WILL suit, just the way it comes.