Are the teachers living in the real world?

jahalpin

Are the teachers living in the real world at all?

(Please note that I am referring to the permanent full-time staff of the Department of Education and Science ONLY)

Their annual meetings are on this week and the main topic on the adgenda is he fact that education is underfunded which is leading to fewer special needs teachers and sub-standard school facilites etc..

They might have a point, if they didn't then turn around and complain about how they need an inflation-beating pay rise of over 10% and they are having to bail out the bankers by having to pay towards their pensions. The simple fact is that the state only has so much money to spend and that if the money is used to increase the pay of existing staff then there is less to pay for new staff and facilites (simple maths really!!!!!)

If the teachers really believe that they are underpaid, then perhaps they could get a second job during during their four-month (secondary - 3 months primary) holidays.

I also find it unacceptable that they so little respect for the office of a Minister of the Republic of Ireland that they have the cheek to walk out during the Ministers speech (who is, let us not forget, their boss). The Minister for Education and Science is under no obligation to attend the meeting and does so out of his or her goodwill

NewDubliner

Facts?

jahalpin wrote: »

by having to pay towards their pensions.

The law that sanctioned the pay cut (named a 'pension levy' not a 'contribution') specifically says that the amount deducted from their pay confers no entitlement to anything. Plus, they've already been paying PRSI like everyone else?

jahalpin wrote: »

that they have the cheek to walk out during the Ministers speech

How many walked out and how many did not?

mikemac

jahalpin wrote: »

They might have a point, if they didn't then turn around and complain about how they need an inflation-beating pay rise of over 10%

was that figure mentioned?

Woger

To be fair it's a thankless job, how much **** do some of them have to tale form students and parents?

jahalpin

NewDubliner wrote: »

Facts?
The law that sanctioned the pay cut (named a 'pension levy' not a 'contribution') specifically says that the amount deducted from their pay confers no entitlement to anything. Plus, they've already been paying PRSI like everyone else?

How many walked out and how many did not?

The PRSI contributions only pay for the standard state pension, not the defined benefit pension that the teachers will get when they retire

jahalpin

Woger wrote: »

To be fair it's a thankless job, how much **** do some of them have to tale form students and parents?

Teachers aren't as badly paid as they make out. They also get over 4 months paid holidays throughout the year to get over the treatment they get from a small percentage of students \ parents

Purple Gorilla

One of my teachers was on the news today about it and lets just say, he's/she's living very comfortably. He's/She's on the Pension Levy at like 8% he/she said so would that not put his/her salary fairly high?

Sleepy

How a teacher who works short hours for 8 months of the year feels they have an entitlement to the same salary as someone who works 35 hours plus for 11 months of the year just because they have an "equivalent" degree (i.e. B.A. v Bsc I.T.) will always be beyond me...

population

I think the teachers see the writing on the wall and that is why they are kicking up. If they lie back for one thing then it sets a precedent.

I mean look at it this way, the govt pay a fortune for permanent teachers so they dont make teachers permanent anymore and instead have courses churning out tons of subs who will forever be floating on contracts and very easy to sack.

My theory is that we may be looking at the last generations of permanent teachers. It will save the govt a fortune, but the qs is it it best for the kids y'know

gurramok

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

One of my teachers was on the news today about it and lets just say, he's/she's living very comfortably. He's/She's on the Pension Levy at like 8% he/she said so would that not put his/her salary fairly high?

And remember they get tax relief on that pension levy as well, so that reduction is probably a paltry 4% and yet it contributes to their lucrative pension.

eoinbn

Woger wrote: »

To be fair it's a thankless job, how much **** do some of them have to tale form students and parents?

The bad ones take ****, the goods ones don't.

I have no problem with them walking out, however I have a problem with why the walked out- €€€. Why weren't they walking out when the government had billions in surplus but weren't building schools with it? Not only did they not walk out then, but they gave standing ovations simply because the government was giving them very generous wage increases. So now we have ended up with some of the highest paid teachers in the world working in half built shacks that the government is paying €100m+ per annum to rent!

jimmycrackcorm

Woger wrote: »

To be fair it's a thankless job, how much **** do some of them have to tale form students and parents?

Yes - todays walkout was by INTO teachers who have to put up with the tantrums of 5 years old between 9 am and 2 pm. I'm sure they probably are suffering from Post traumatic stress disorder.

While they are whinging also about the lack of special needs teachers and education cutbacks they might explain how the country managed to educate the people that contributed to and built the celtic tiger.

xOxSinéadxOx

teachers are definitley not living in the real world. I'm not saying that because of now but I've noticed over the years

Purple Gorilla

I also loved when that teacher goes "We're doing it for the students. We're worried about the students"

Didn't seem to worried about the students when they were planning to go on strike a week before the LC Orals?

994

Woger wrote: »

To be fair it's a thankless job, how much **** do some of them have to tale form students and parents?

Social workers take **** too. As do gardaí, tech support, security guards, A&E staff and a dozen other jobs; none gets the same privileges.

Purple Gorilla wrote:

I also loved when that teacher goes "We're doing it for the students. We're worried about the students"

Didn't seem to worried about the students when they were planning to go on strike a week before the LC Orals?

Or when they refuse to allow the dismissal of incompetent teachers.

Pride Fighter

The cutback regarding special needs teachers is a reason to go on strike, why didnt they when it was announced?

It does seem to be grandstanding on their part as soon as the cameras are on them. But there is chronic underfunding in the schools system. I think a good idea for funding is to levy fees paid to private schools by 10-20%, this would raise money that could be ring fenced to bring back the special needs assistants and to double or treble the capitation grant.

Purple Gorilla

I will add though, don't paint all the teachers with the same brush. Some of my teachers are unbelievable...before the protest they were refusing to go on strike because they wouldn't neglect their 6th years. They openly protested against the other teachers who were going on strike

jimmycrackcorm

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

I will add though, don't paint all the teachers with the same brush. Some of my teachers are unbelievable...before the protest they were refusing to go on strike because they wouldn't neglect their 6th years. They openly protested against the other teachers who were going on strike

Some teachers are actually smart and know how lucky they are. If the rest of them had to go through what people in the private sector were going through they'd soon shut up pretty quickly.

Purple Gorilla

Thats what one of our teachers said when she basically attacked one of the other teachers who was really in favour of striking. She asked her what she was protesting about...She has a secure job, a comfortable salary, a nice lump sum when she leaves the school and a secure pension. She asked her, how many people out of the 400,000 people on the dole were from the Public Sector...

Then the teacher just disregarded any valid argument against striking...

Black Swan

jahalpin wrote: »

The Minister for Education and Science is under no obligation to attend the meeting and does so out of his or her goodwill

Did the Minister get a pay raise?

kraggy

Sleepy wrote: »

How a teacher who works short hours for 8 months of the year feels they have an entitlement to the same salary as someone who works 35 hours plus for 11 months of the year just because they have an "equivalent" degree (i.e. B.A. v Bsc I.T.) will always be beyond me...

How someone, who could have become a teacher during the boom years, can turn around and begrudge teachers their entitlements now is beyond me.

It gets very tiring.

Why didn't those who now have a bee in their bonnet about public sector pay join the public sector a few years ago if the job is such a cushy number?

During the peak years, a teacher's pay was peanuts in comparison with jobs in the private sector that people I know had and involved much less responsibility.

People chose at the time to go with the private sector to avail of the benefits, but now that things have gone pear-shaped in the economy they decide to make teachers public enemy number 1?

Get over yourselves.

NewDubliner

jahalpin wrote:

The PRSI contributions only pay for the standard state pension, not the defined benefit pension that the teachers will get when they retire

In some cases, almost all of the pension entitlement derives from the state pension. The defined benefit is quite similar to that enjoyed by the majority of private sector employees.

gurramok wrote: »

And remember they get tax relief on that pension levy as well, so that reduction is probably a paltry 4% and yet it contributes to their lucrative pension.

It's not tax relief. Their pay was cut and they cannot be taxed on what they don't get. Its not a contribution, check the leglislation.

ixoy

kraggy wrote: »

How someone, who could have become a teacher during the boom years, can turn around and begrudge teachers their entitlements now is beyond me.

It's not begrudgery - it's the simple fact that we can't afford things as they are. Cuts have to be made in all areas in order to make up for the government's screw ups. When the teachers kick up over pay and a levy (a pain but not as bad as some other places and it may be offset by increments) it rubs people up the wrong way - people have to wonder where they think this money to fix this is going to come from? The obvious answer is increased pain for the rest of us.

Ultimately what's getting people down here is that it seems the public and civil sector unions seem utterly resistant to change despite change being necessary because without it the country is quite likely to be in even worse shape. That is what gets more tiring to me.

grahamo

jahalpin wrote: »

The PRSI contributions only pay for the standard state pension, not the defined benefit pension that the teachers will get when they retire

Here we go again!:rolleyes:
The PRSI contribution pays for the standard state pension.
They then pay 6.5% towards their public sector pension plus around 7% pension levy.
What a lot of the begrudgers don't realise is that whatever they get from the state pension is deducted from the public sector pension, public sector pension is then NOT so lucrative. so if they are entitled to a pension of say
350 euro per week and their state pension is 200 euro per week, their public service pension is 150 euro per week. Not many will get this much because you need 40 years service to get the full pension.
You would be lucky if you got the money back you put into it.....Lucrative....My arse!
Its only lucrative if you are a gard or a TD!

grahamo

ixoy wrote: »

It's not begrudgery - it's the simple fact that we can't afford things as they are. Cuts have to be made in all areas in order to make up for the government's screw ups. When the teachers kick up over pay and a levy (a pain but not as bad as some other places and it may be offset by increments) it rubs people up the wrong way - people have to wonder where they think this money to fix this is going to come from? The obvious answer is increased pain for the rest of us.

Ultimately what's getting people down here is that it seems the public and civil sector unions seem utterly resistant to change despite change being necessary because without it the country is quite likely to be in even worse shape. That is what gets more tiring to me.

Sorry Lads but it is BEGRUDGERY!

grahamo

I'm backing the primary school teachers. Kids are entitled under the constitution to a FREE primary school education. Anyone with kids in primary school knows it is far from free! And now more cutbacks!:eek:
Expensive books, voluntary contributions, charges for school activities.
Meanwhile the millionaire's kids can have a free university education.
The government have got their priorites all wrong.

Denerick

I'm from a family of public service workers. Its largely a thankless job and hated by most private sector workers. Still though, for all the complaining they do about the state of the countries finances, they are equally vocal about government having to take the hard choices with them, the people who eat up so much of the national budget.

They should make their minds up. The deficit has to go away some way and I'm afraid their wages will be the first to be cut. (As they already have been, of course)

97i9y3941

another problem is,nearly every tom,dick and harry coming out of college is a teacher now,and theres not enough work,and yes i do agree with some of people here,the teachers get great pensions and such,think also people forget that we pay them about €30 an hour to correct exam papers let alone some of them make a fortune from giving grinds to students

the_syco

Sleepy wrote: »

How a teacher who works short hours for 8 months of the year feels they have an entitlement to the same salary as someone who works 35 hours plus for 11 months of the year just because they have an "equivalent" degree (i.e. B.A. v Bsc I.T.) will always be beyond me...

Works for 8 hours, corrects homework for another few hours.

Gambit32

Teachers have by far the handiest number,great pay,job satifaction,4 months holidays every year,and a million other perk,and they have the nerve to ask for more,have you ever heard of a teacher being fired for incompetancy?,I remember many from my school years that should have been

97i9y3941

think we need a hardline approach,shut up and pay routine,im sorry but,people in the private sector are doing every god given hour now to make ends meet,let alone the civil servants where strikeing over it but then used the "oh my spouse or other half is on the dole and i cant afford to be taxed now" to get the public sympathy

themont85

the_syco wrote: »

Works for 8 hours, corrects homework for another few hours.

BS teachers work a max 22 hours a week teaching. They get free classes everyday in which to do their corrections. The problem with teaching is some are great and clearly put way more hours than others in setting assignments and corrections, others are far more lax. There is no targets for them to be reached.

For those who call it begrudgery that is such a cop out. They have to take cuts in wages, Name me a country in the world where teachers are really well paid, comparitively they are in Ireland. How does a teacher lose their job? Very difficult from all my teacher buddies once your in the school 3 years. All the free time for grinds, coaching ect. 2-3 months summer holidays. They got great pay increases during the boom, didn't benefit at all is a load of bull.

I have to laugh when i hear the TUI president saying all he wants them to do is teach and not have to do 'administrative work', i'd love to know exactly what that is, for some teachers once they teach the class they think job done. These union heads are trying to justify their existance.

partyguinness

Its amazing that teachers only seem to strike when it their pay packet is under threat and then they say its for the students....haha pull the other one...

Why dont they strike for better schools and facilities?

The last few conferences have seen standing ovations for Ministers...even though the bad school conditions were just the same then but now attack their pay packet..and well...you see their reaction...says it all really..:rolleyes:

They are setting a very bad example for the students they teach..acting like children themselves...

Teachers have way too much time on their hands thats why they can kick up such a fuss..I seriously think the school year shoulc be extended in line with other OCED countries...after all they are being paid anyway..

I am amazed that they dont hold these conferences during the school term as an "in service" day...:rolleyes:

97i9y3941

i find it amazeing that the schools still run by the church are ones that are run down,church is well loaded to look after itself

ntlbell

Woger wrote: »

To be fair it's a thankless job, how much **** do some of them have to tale form students and parents?

I'm sick of hearing about this thankless job crap.

most jobs are, most jobs you have to take crap from someone

this is not about if it's a thankless job or not.

ntlbell

why don't they picket for the 3 months they have off?

that they'll get paid for outside the dail and not affect the kids education?

partyguinness

ntlbell wrote: »

why don't they picket for the 3 months they have off?

that they'll get paid for outside the dail and not affect the kids education?

Yes thats a very fair point...

gurramok

kraggy wrote: »

People chose at the time to go with the private sector to avail of the benefits, but now that things have gone pear-shaped in the economy they decide to make teachers public enemy number 1?

Get over yourselves.

If it was so bad a a teacher, why did they not leave to goto the 'lucrative' private sector then?

They didn't and you know well why, they were rewarded handsomely via benchmarking.

Now as the employer(govt) is in dire straits as well as the private sector, then you will agree to benchmark backwards to private sector wage levels.

You will get a shock at the results.

bobbyjoe

ntlbell wrote: »

why don't they picket for the 3 months they have off?

that they'll get paid for outside the dail and not affect the kids education?

Because the point of a strike to cause disruption.

KerranJast

Gambit32 wrote: »

Teachers have by far the handiest number,great pay,job satifaction,4 months holidays every year,and a million other perk,and they have the nerve to ask for more,have you ever heard of a teacher being fired for incompetancy?,I remember many from my school years that should have been

Some of the teachers I've had over the years had the patience of saints. If I'd been in charge I'd have punched some of the gob****es in my class in the face. Dealing with 2 or 3 whiny kids is bad enough. 35-40 of them would drive me insane. Similar one moany teenager is a pain. Handling a class full of them, a significant minority of which are only interested in causing disruption, is my idea of hell. I'd need the 3 months holidays just to get my sanity back. At least in IT when we have idiot customers we can treat them like idiots and we don't have to worry about them running to Mammy to bail them out.

meboloxitis

ntlbell wrote: »

why don't they picket for the 3 months they have off?

that they'll get paid for outside the dail and not affect the kids education?

GENIUS!!

I'd love to hear a valid arguement for this comment

partyguinness

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Because the point of a strike to cause disruption.

Of course...but they say thats its not to cause disruption and that the students will not be effected...

This would call their bluff...

partyguinness

meboloxitis wrote: »

GENIUS!!

I'd love to hear a valid arguement for this comment

The arguments are pretty self explanatory really...

bobbyjoe

partyguinness wrote: »

Of course...but they say thats its not to cause disruption and that the students will not be effected...

This would call their bluff...

Didn't read that. Link?

ntlbell

meboloxitis wrote: »

GENIUS!!

I'd love to hear a valid arguement for this comment

It's very straight forward.

They get 3 months off. paid.

So get out the plackards and prance around outside the dail for 3 months

they get to protest

and the kids that they care so much don't lose any education time

crazy i know having the kids interest at heart!

madness!

ntlbell

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Because the point of a strike to cause disruption.

but they claim they have the kids interest's right?

denying them a day of education doesn't sound like they do

sounds like they have their own?

i don't mind them striking as long as their honest about it don't use the kids in one hand and then attack the kids with the other.

bobbyjoe

ntlbell wrote: »

but they claim they have the kids interest's right?

denying them a day of education doesn't sound like they do

sounds like they have their own?

i don't mind them striking as long as their honest about it don't use the kids in one hand and then attack the kids with the other.

Striking during the summer holidays would achieve nothing. Class sizes would still grow, special teachers lost etc, If they want to stop these things they would need to cause some disruption in the kids education to help them in the long run.

ntlbell

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Striking during the summer holidays would achieve nothing. Class sizes would still grow, special teachers lost etc, If they want to stop these things they would need to cause some disruption in the kids education to help them in the long run.

why haven't they been striking over the last few years?

from what i can see the reason they're striking is over money?

if it's not money then why now?

partyguinness

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Striking during the summer holidays would achieve nothing. Class sizes would still grow, special teachers lost etc, If they want to stop these things they would need to cause some disruption in the kids education to help them in the long run.

So its all for the kids education....pull the other one...:rolleyes:

They were perfectly happy to put up with the apparent bad conditions when their pay was on the up...now their pay is under attack and they all of a sudden want to strike for the good of the kids...thats hilarious...LOL

They are certainly in a fantasy world if they think they rest of the country will buy that tripe..

bobbyjoe

partyguinness wrote: »

So its all for the kids education....pull the other one...:rolleyes:

They were perfectly happy to put up with the apparent bad conditions when their pay was on the up...now their pay is under attack and they all of a sudden want to strike for the good of the kids...thats hilarious...LOL

They are certainly in a fantasy world if they think they rest of the country will buy that tripe..

Where are they saying its not only about money?
Its a lot of factors money being one.

ntlbell

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Where are they saying its not only about money?
Its a lot of factors money being one.

but why only strike when the money became a problem?

the other problems have always been there?

makes little sense