Social Welfare

Coz

Hi All,

Not sure what the correct forum is for this so please feel free to move.

My fiancée and I have just had dealings with the Social Welfare Department and we are extremely confused and perplexed. We would appreciate any advice you can give us.

We are currently renting together in an apartment. My fiancée is unemployed at present and she approached Social Welfare to see if there are any benefits available to her.

When applying she was asked to produce one of my payslips, as Social Welfare regard us as one household. Based on the amount I earn, she is not entitled to any payments. This is despite the fact that we are struggling to meet bills on my salary alone.

We contacted Citizens advice on this and they confirm this to be correct.

A reasonable person would then think that by this rationale I should be entitled to claim my fiancées tax credits given that she is being denied payment based on what I earn, but lo and behold, Revenue regard us as two separate households as we are not married and therefore I am not entitled to claim her credits.

With the looming health levy and income levy increases, we are going to find ourselves in serious financial difficultly at the end of this month.

Is there course of action available to us?

Soldie

You might have more luck posting this in the 'Personal Issues' forum.

Victor

Or here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=670

Yes, you are doubly done over. Such is the system. Whatever about couples, its particularly bad at discriminating against unmarried families.

On a more practical note, try the local community welfare officers (usually in the local health centre) to see if there is anything else she might be entitled to, like rent allowance.

kelle

This sounds ridiculous. If two non-related people are shaing a house and one becomes unemployed, does SW look for the wageslip of the other housesharer? I should imagine not. Why does a ring on a finger change everything?
An engagement is not an official contract, unlike a marriage. Did SW actually ask if she was engaged?

Victor

Thread moved from Politics to Personal Issues.

Oh, look at what you are spending you money on also, if you have to, talk to MABS www.mabs.ie

Beta Ray Bill

Hi OP

I'm pretty sure you can claim her TAX Credits
I think you need to apply for a social partnership or something like that, my mate has done it and he can claim tax back on his earnings because she is out of work.

He has a child with this girl though so I'm not sure if that changes anything (Logically it shouldn't, but time and time again our legislation is very far behind and out dated in this country)

I'll find out the name of the Form you need to fill out and then post back on here.

G.

Coz

kelle wrote: »

This sounds ridiculous. If two non-related people are shaing a house and one becomes unemployed, does SW look for the wageslip of the other housesharer? I should imagine not. Why does a ring on a finger change everything?
An engagement is not an official contract, unlike a marriage. Did SW actually ask if she was engaged?

They asked if she was co-habitating. At the time she didn't see any point in lying to them.

Victor wrote:

Oh, look at what you are spending you money on also, if you have to, talk to MABS www.mabs.ie

Like everyone else we're watching every cent Victor. It's when my take home pay is reduced at the end of the month that it will become a problem.

Beta Ray Bill

The above is all correct in terms of what the OP said.

My mate was only able to claim tax credits of his partner after being in a social partnership for over a year.

what she can do though is apply for Job seekers benefit.
Also if you have a child you can claim tax relief for that too.

Job seekers benefit might be the best way to go though for the moment mate

Hope this helps you.

G.

Victor

grahambo, what you may be thinking of is a maintenance payment, usually when the parents are apart and one does the bulk of the child care.

Beta Ray Bill

I cant be 100% sure. I can only go off of what my mate has told me.

He said jobseekers benefit would be the best route for the OP's partner.

every route is worth exploring though right?

LegacyUser

Hi Op,

Im in the same boat, its humiliating for me because i like to pay my way!

I have no job and he has to pay for everything right now because he has a wage over a certain amount,

my boyfriend should be able to claim my tax credits at least,


I think it encourages couples to lie, and its not fair if you cant afford to live as much as the next person.

Gregor Samsa

grahambo wrote: »

My mate was only able to claim tax credits of his partner after being in a social partnership for over a year.

"Social Partnership" is the process by which Unions, business representatives and Government negotiate national strategies concerning pay and work conditions.

You appear to be thinking of something along the lines of "Civil Partnership", where the couples can have the State recognise certain rights and responsibilities concerning their relationship without them getting married, but there is currently no provision for Civil Partnership in Ireland. Similarly, "common-law marriage" has no legal recognition in Ireland.

For Social Welfare purposes, once you're "cohabitating" (and are not just co-tenants), then your joint income is taken into account. I found myself in this situation a number of years ago.

For Revenue purposes, "cohabitating" means nothing, and you're marital status determines how your tax credits can be used, whether the couple are living together or not.

Unmarried couples are severely discriminated against regarding rights and protections in this country.

(Two possible solutions are to lie about your domestic arrangements or get married, but I'll leave it to others to determine which would be the more serious predicament to be in.)

spank_inferno

Hey OP

Get your fiance to go back and say "I lost my job So I need rent allowence"

Social welfare officer: "do you live with someone"?

Answer: "No"

There isnt any secret registry of co-habitation
or a database of those who have "popped the question" so they cant prove otherwise.

How do you think the single mothers of Ireland manage it?

Executive Steve

never ever ever tell the dole you're anything but single unless you're married.

John Mason

spank_inferno wrote: »

Hey OP

Get your fiance to go back and say "I lost my job So I need rent allowence"

Social welfare officer: "do you live with someone"?

Answer: "No"

There isnt any secret registry of co-habitation
or a database of those who have "popped the question" so they cant prove otherwise.

How do you think the single mothers of Ireland manage it?

this is fraud

OP you and your gf are living together. therefore she is not entitled to any social welfare funding. is there a reason why you think this should be different for you then for everyone else?

Nevyn

spank_inferno
Advocating someone to commit an illegal act such as fraud is not permitted on this site.
Please read the charter and post with in the rules.

carolmon

ok technically it's fraud but why should people be caught between two different depts of the same government and be treated in two conflicting ways? ie social welfare treats you the same as a married couple without the marriage cert (even though you're legally single) but revenue treats you as two single people until you have the marriage cert.

Strikes me as having it both ways and it's sure not benefitting co-habiting couple, but government coffers.
It's discrimination pure and simple and yet another example of the hypocrisy and ineptitude of our government. More and more couples are going to be caught by this loophole in this recession despite having worked and paid taxes.

Makes me so angry!

LegacyUser

carolmon wrote: »

ok technically it's fraud but why should people be caught between two different depts of the same government and be treated in two conflicting ways? ie social welfare treats you the same as a married couple without the marriage cert (even though you're legally single) but revenue treats you as two single people until you have the marriage cert.

Strikes me as having it both ways and it's sure not benefitting co-habiting couple, but government coffers.
It's discrimination pure and simple and yet another example of the hypocrisy and ineptitude of our government. More and more couples are going to be caught by this loophole in this recession despite having worked and paid taxes.

Makes me so angry!

Don't have my boards password here at work.

This is the same in a lot of European countries and is not unique to Ireland. I live in Germany and was in the exact same predicament not so long ago. My girlfriend had finished college and was unable to find any work and as she was living with me, had no stamps and I was considered to be earning too much she was not entitled to a cent, not even rent allowance. And to make matters worse, over here health insurance is compulsory so I was having to pay that for her. Money was running out quick at the time and the only real option we could see was to go the registry office and get married so we could get the tax breaks. Luckily she was in a store one day and her mum made a cheeky comment about any chance they might have a job going and they actually did but hadn't even put the sign on the window yet. It was only a few hours a week but it was all we needed to pay the bills.

OP, chin up and keep eyes and ears open. Even in bad times you will be surprised where something will pop up. If your fiancée goes door to door to all the companies/shops she may get some luck, even a small job for €50 a week can make all the difference.

Coz

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

this is fraud

OP you and your gf are living together. therefore she is not entitled to any social welfare funding. is there a reason why you think this should be different for you then for everyone else?

I never stated it should be different for me. It shouldn't be like this for anyone. If SW want to treat us as a married couple then Revenue should do the same, and let me claim her tax credits.

Can you explain to me in rational terms why the system is set up in this way? I'll wager you can't.

If we weren't engaged she'd be entitled to SW Payments?!? There's not a lick of sense in it.

Coz

phutyle wrote: »

(Two possible solutions are to lie about your domestic arrangements or get married, but I'll leave it to others to determine which would be the more serious predicament to be in.)

We plan on getting married but we're not going to bring the date foward just so she can sign on or I can claim her credits.

John Mason

Coz wrote: »

Can you explain to me in rational terms why the system is set up in this way? I'll wager you can't.

yes, i can because the irish consitution favours marriage and the family over single people.


the rules and regulations were all set up when it was morally outrages for people to "live in sin" . The government wouldn't pay people with dodgy morals.

also it is to stop single parents moving partners into their houses and yet are still claiming single parents rent allowance even though technically they are not single anymore

it has always been like this. this isnt new. have you done anything in the past to fight this rules ? or was it a case of it doesnt effect me, so i dont care? and now it effects you, you go off on a rant.

carolmon

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

yes, i can because the irish consitution favours marriage and the family over single people.



it has always been like this. this isnt new. have you done anything in the past to fight this rules ? or was it a case of it doesnt effect me, so i dont care? and now it effects you, you go off on a rant.

So do you support this inequity then?

would you be okay if it was an employer discriminating against single/ married people so?
We have laws to prevent discrimination in this country yet our rulers are obviously exempt from these laws and seem to have no legal impetus to make sure that all government departments are operating from a similar policy viewpoint.
Most people don't even know about these situations until they effect them personally.

Wibbs

OK this is not a forum for debating the morals of the law as it stands. Please take it to humanities or politics. Not here. It's also not the place to encourage unlawful actions either. Thanks.

carolmon

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

the rules and regulations were all set up when it was morally outrages for people to "live in sin" . The government wouldn't pay people with dodgy morals. .

Not applicable now though as the government will pay people with "dodgy morals" from one government department - Social Welfare.
This suits the government as the combined rate for an unemployed co-habiting couple is less than two single person payments.

The constitutional role of upholding the traditional family doesn't seem to come into play here at all..................



(sorry Wibbs just saw warning but wouldn't mind continuing the debate elsewhere, best of luck OP)

calex71

Surely the OP's girlfriend can get jobseekers benifit as its not means tested and meets the required prsi contributions etc?

It can be claimed for up to 15 months before you need to apply for the means tested jobseekers allowance.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/unemployed-people/unemployment_benefit

MisterMonkey

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

yes, i can because the irish consitution favours marriage and the family over single people.

he asked you to explain in rational terms. the above is clearly not rational

Coz

MisterMonkey wrote: »

he asked you to explain in rational terms. the above is clearly not rational

And it looks like I won the bet!

pink fluffy bunny wrote:

The government wouldn't pay people with dodgy morals.

Are you really questioning my morals or is that just a throw away remark?

pink fluffy bunny wrote:

the rules and regulations were all set up when it was morally outrages for people to "live in sin"

So you agree that times have changed? Why hasn't the legislature kept up with the times?

pink fluffy bunny wrote:

also it is to stop single parents moving partners into their houses and yet are still claiming single parents rent allowance even though technically they are not single anymore

We're not claiming that. We don't have children.

pink fluffy bunny wrote:

it has always been like this. this isnt new. have you done anything in the past to fight this rules ? or was it a case of it doesnt effect me, so i dont care? and now it effects you, you go off on a rant.

Firstly, it's hardly a rant. I asked for other peoples opinions on what I deemed to be an unbalance in the system.

Secondly, it's seems that other people here weren't aware of this inequality before I posted here. Do you really expect me to trudge though pages of legislation just to make sure there's something out there that might effect me?

I suppose I should go read up about beef quotas even though I'm not a farmer, just in case!!

(sorry Wibbs but I just couldn't let this one lie)

kelle

I have been mulling over this thread since Tuesday, and I am still amazed at what I read - you certainly learn something new every day!

But it made me wonder - how do SW define co-habiting? How do they enforce the rule? Do they call to your flat and check how many beds are there and the condition of the mattresses, or send spies out to see if you kiss/cuddle? Two friends of mine shared a flat with one double bed, if one lost her job would the other have been expected to support her?

It just doesn't make any sense to me, considering the only difference is the affection you have for each other!

Coz

kelle wrote: »

I have been mulling over this thread since Tuesday, and I am still amazed at what I read - you certainly learn something new every day!

But it made me wonder - how do SW define co-habiting? How do they enforce the rule? Do they call to your flat and check how many beds are there and the condition of the mattresses, or send spies out to see if you kiss/cuddle? Two friends of mine shared a flat with one double bed, if one lost her job would the other have been expected to support her?

It just doesn't make any sense to me, considering the only difference is the affection you have for each other!

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/pages/cohabit.aspx

The usual Mumbo Jumbo!!

Apparently they do have inspection teams that have the right to call to your residence.

We've no interest in lying to SW so when they asked about our living arrangements we told the truth. We explained that we are not married but they simply said "that doesn't matter".

As a point of arguement with them we said "so if we come back tomorrow and say we've broken up we can get payments" they said "well, yes, but we can call out to check. It would be unlawful"

kelle

From Link above wrote:

A person may be entitled to an increase for a qualified adult for a person who is not a spouse, provided the couple are cohabiting

Would this help you in any way, or is it only if you're on Social welfare yourself?

Coz

Well we're no legal experts so we asked Citzens Advice about it all.

They were extremely nice and sympathetic but they confirmed there is nothing we can do.

Unfortunately sympathy won't keep us in baked beans.