Police State

road_2_damascus

Does anyone feel we are becoming a bit like a police state here... the newest headline today that might suggest this is the 5 penalty points introduction for out of date NCT. I agree the NCT is important, but 5 points? It shows a severe lack of sympathy and understanding of peoples financial situations after last weeks budget, considering many thousnads are now in negative equity... Pass the country's trade defecit on to the tax payer, and get the Gardai to implement it

mikemac

If you can afford a car, lessons, test fee, insurance, fuel and motor tax then you can afford the NCT fee and whatever mechanical work is needed.

Highsider

Nowhere as bad as the UK yet. 5 points for no NCT seems fair enough to me.

Kiera

I can see their point in introducing penalty points for no NCT but 5 is a bit much.

/must get NCT done.

road_2_damascus

mikemac wrote: »

If you can afford a car, lessons, test fee, insurance, fuel and motor tax then you can afford the NCT fee and whatever mechanical work is needed.

That is not my point, sorry I should have made it more clear... the new nct rule being one of many examples I can think of that makes me feel that Ireland seems to be slowly turning into a police state

Snowie

no there's not enough guarda to do enforce a police state. but its a bit much hopefully finna fail will do what they do best and kick the idea around to a former idea of its self and bring it to 3 point better yet in the uk they crush the car so points aint that bad...

Sleipnir

Having the NCT is the law, the Gardai enforce the law in the country.

dlofnep

mikemac wrote: »

If you can afford a car, lessons, test fee, insurance, fuel and motor tax then you can afford the NCT fee and whatever mechanical work is needed.

What the above be the reason that you "can't" afford the mechanical work needed? Don't try enforce your own financial situation on others. Not everyone can afford it, or have other priorities such as feeding their children.

In saying that - it's important to have a car on the road that's not going to endanger somebody, but 5 points does seem alot.

Terry

road_2_damascus wrote: »

That is not my point, sorry I should have made it more clear... the new nct rule being one of many examples I can think of that makes me feel that Ireland seems to be slowly turning into a police state

Corrupt state? Yes.
Incompetent state? Yes.
Police state? No.

Sleipnir

Ah, I doubt it will be 5 anyway. That's just what the meeja say.

Cosmo K

road_2_damascus wrote: »

Does anyone feel we are becoming a bit like a police state here... t

Yeah, the streets are full with trigger happy cops, people are arrested and detained for weeks, some just disappear forever, dissidents are shot dead in broad daylight, newspapers are banned, journalists flleing the country to seek asylum in save places like Zimbawe, you have to carry an ID card 24 hrs.....yep, I think you are right, Ireland is becoming a police state.....

javaboy

OP you wouldn't know a police state if it jumped up and bit you on the arse.

road_2_damascus

I suppose I meant overall government policy and general national atmosphere rather than Gardai implementing nct law... Its a bit of a read but what Im talking about is here

irish_bob

road_2_damascus wrote: »

That is not my point, sorry I should have made it more clear... the new nct rule being one of many examples I can think of that makes me feel that Ireland seems to be slowly turning into a police state

il just add the term POLICE STATE to the list of other terms that have now lost all meaning but still command an effective emotional response in 2009

POLICE STATE
MOST VULNERABLE IN SOCIETY
FAT CATS
SUPER RICH

road_2_damascus

irish_bob wrote: »

il just add the term POLICE STATE to the list of other terms that have now lost all meaning but still command an effective emotional response in 2009

POLICE STATE
MOST VULNERABLE IN SOCIETY
FAT CATS
SUPER RICH

You forgot about BANKING CARTEL

javaboy

road_2_damascus wrote: »

I suppose I meant overall government policy and general national atmosphere rather than Gardai implementing nct law... Its a bit of a read but what Im talking about is here

Ah I saw a mention of Orwell and 1984 on that website. Moving to Conspiracy Theories.....

r3nu4l

The UK is far ahead of Ireland in terms of being a police state!

See this as an example.

BBC News wrote:

...
The small Smart cars, which have a 12ft (3.6m) mast with a camera attached, are parked at junctions to monitor traffic.
.
.
.
Anyone seen driving while distracted - eating at the wheel, playing with the radio or applying make-up for instance - is filmed by the cameras.

Later, a letter is sent to the owner of the car, in many cases along with a fine.

Anyone caught using their mobile will be asked to pay £60 and have three points added to their licence. Fines could also be handed out to anyone who is thought to be driving without due care and attention, or similar offences.

Dudess

irish_bob wrote: »

il just add the term POLICE STATE to the list of other terms that have now lost all meaning but still command an effective emotional response in 2009

POLICE STATE
MOST VULNERABLE IN SOCIETY
FAT CATS
SUPER RICH

You forgot "politically correct", "bleeding heart", "banana republic", "liberal".

Oh and "Censorship in Ireland is so extreme it's as bad as - in a way worse than - China".

I agree five points is quite draconian though.

Gummy Panda

OP I'd be more worried about the tracking device they install during the NCT

Dudess

javaboy wrote: »

Ah I saw a mention of Orwell and 1984 on that website. Moving to Conspiracy Theories.....

People who say 1984 has come true in lots of ways... are very silly.

Diogenes

Okay go to Korea, or Zimbabwe and get a firmer grasp on the concept of a police state.

Run_to_da_hills

Diogenes wrote: »

Okay go to Korea, or Zimbabwe and get a firmer grasp on the concept of a police state.

No need to go that far, just cross the Irish Sea.

http://www.rense.com/general73/modelfor.htm

Diogenes

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No need to go that far, just cross the Irish Sea.

http://www.rense.com/general73/modelfor.htm

Yeah

from the site wrote:

* Taking a ride on a bus on a route that doesn't go anywhere near the Tavistock Institute? You may suddenly find your bus has been re-routed by the police themselves to pass with tens of yards of the Institute's front door - only to blow up. Yet another "unsolved crime."

Yes the bus blew up because of it's route, nothing to do with the suicide bomber.

"The 2006/2007 colour TV license costs £10.96 ($20.38) per month - about 36p per day for each household. It is free if you are over 75, half-price if you are registered blind. The annual cost (set by the Government) is currently £131.50 ($244.55)year. A black and white TV license is £44 ($81.83.)

Yes the tv licence a TOOL OF THE FASCIST OPPRESSOR!

Meanwhile they're executing and mutilating people in Saudi Arabia.

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No need to go that far, just cross the Irish Sea.

http://www.rense.com/general73/modelfor.htm

A few examples from that site:

Don't run to catch a subway train. You'll be shot to death as one young man was, until the gun is empty.

One isolated incident. A terrible mistake for which the police should be blamed. But to infer from that that you will be shot to death for running for a train is just stupid.

Wear a cross on a necklace? You'll be suspended from your job, if you work for British Airways as Nadi Eweida did.

Eh what do a private company's regulations have to do with a police state?

Think you can drive faster above the speed limit out in the country in the middle of nowhere - AND get away with it? Forget it. Automated speed measuring devices mounted high atop poles painted to blend in with the foliage communicate by digital radio to computers at police departments.

"Out in the country in the middle of nowhere" are exactly where the accidents happen. If you have a look in the motors forum, you'll see people giving out about cameras being placed on straight safer stretches because they're cash cows. They say put them on the back roads where they can really save lives. When they actually do that, somebody cries "police state".

Want a firearm? Forget it. Only the police can have those, and they are used to assassinate people when deemed necessary. You don't have any right to defend yourself. Only the criminals have guns.

First of all, you can have a firearm in the UK. So they're off to a bad start already.
Yes the police have them and occasionally there's a mistake like the Menezes case. That doesn't mean it's a police state. If it was a police state, there wouldn't have been a massive inquiry about it.

I got bored after that.

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

A few examples from that site:

One isolated incident. A terrible mistake for which the police should be blamed. But to infer from that that you will be shot to death for running for a train is just stupid.

Or just like this other terrible mistake. :rolleyes:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tima/g20-protester-killed-by-riot-police-6au

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Or just like this other terrible mistake. :rolleyes:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tima/g20-protester-killed-by-riot-police-6au

An awful incident and it looks like the police have some questions to answer all right.

But riddle me this Run: If the UK is a police state, why was that in the papers? Why was it on the telly? Why didn't the police put a blackout on any coverage of it? Why didn't they plant something on him or fabricate some evidence about him being connected to Al Qaeda?

Is it perhaps because it is not in fact a police state at all? Is it maybe just a case of one or two policemen putting on riot gear and picking up a baton and getting a bit overexcited? One bad apple doesn't mean the whole tree is rotten.

Diogenes

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Or just like this other terrible mistake. :rolleyes:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tima/g20-protester-killed-by-riot-police-6au

Two mistakes in a half a decade.

Also the jury in the DeMenzes refused to believe the police statement.

Furthermore a free and open media exposed the death of Ian Tomlinson, and challenged the police's version of events. Something that doesn't happen in genuine police states.

Mahatma coat

again, thats how it starts.

what we need here is one of RTDH's analagous photos comparing the Police wih their dogs to the Nazi's with their dogs, or am I the only one who sees that connection

Diogenes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

again, thats how it starts.

How what starts?

what we need here is one of RTDH's analagous photos comparing the Police wih their dogs to the Nazi's with their dogs, or am I the only one who sees that connection

Yes because thats exactly what the situation requires; hysterical exaggeration.

Dudess

It's kinda romantic or something to say Ireland and/or Britain are actually highly oppressive societies, we just don't know it. Makes those who claim it feel all "Che". And yet... they're free to discuss it on a public message board.

If I was a Zimbabwean I'd be mightily pissed at such nonsense...

Run_to_da_hills

Diogenes wrote: »

Two mistakes in a half a decade.

Are you not remembering the numerous other "mistakes", IE the Guilford 4, the Birmingham 6, Maguire 7, Judith Ward. John Boyle and countless other innocent victoms of fabricated terrorism charges many of whom have spent decades behing bars without compensation.

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Are you not remembering the numerous other "mistakes", IE the Guilford 4, the Birmingham 6, Maguire 7, Judith Ward. John Boyle and countless other innocent victoms of fabricated terrorism charges many of whom have spent decades behing bars without compensation.

Hmm the 1970's seemed more than half a decade ago but no doubt you know what you're talking about Rtdh, as always. :rolleyes:

In an actual police state you wouldn't hear about stories like that.
Or discuss them on the internet.
Or use them to imply that those stories are indicative of a police state.

Run_to_da_hills

meglome wrote: »

Hmm the 1970's seemed more than half a decade ago but no doubt you know what you're talking about Rtdh, as always. :rolleyes:

Your right, things have come along way since the 70ies. Police have a lot more powers now than they had in the dark days. They can now tap your phone, read and copy your personal messages without a warrent, photograph you in public at every street corner, digitall follow you about as you travel to work.

Dudess

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Are you not remembering the numerous other "mistakes", IE the Guilford 4, the Birmingham 6, Maguire 7, Judith Ward. John Boyle and countless other innocent victoms of fabricated terrorism charges many of whom have spent decades behing bars without compensation.

It was acknowledged those were miscarriages of justice, and there was plenty of campaigning against them.

bonkey

Dudess wrote: »

It was acknowledged those were miscarriages of justice, and there was plenty of campaigning against them.

<sarcasm>
Clear signs of the police-statiness that's being alleged.
</sarcasm>

DubTony

Diogenes wrote: »

Yes because thats exactly what the situation requires; hysterical exaggeration.

Yeah. lets have lots more of that hysterical exaggeration.
I read that they'll be handing out automatic bans for no NCT and imprisoning your kids for having no insurance. I can't find the link.

Diogenes

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Are you not remembering the numerous other "mistakes", IE the Guilford 4, the Birmingham 6, Maguire 7, Judith Ward. John Boyle and countless other innocent victoms of fabricated terrorism charges many of whom have spent decades behing bars without compensation.

Not to gild the lily but as numerous other posters have pointed out, all of these misscarriages of justice were exposed as just that.

There are calls today for a re examination of the Hillsborough disaster and the west yorkshire police's handling of it.

See that accountability, and a free media's questioning of the state's apparatus, two things that don't exist in genuine police states.

Mahatma coat

Oh great, we can expose a miscarrige of Justice after the fact, and you think a society should feel proud of itself that things like the Guilford four and the Birmingham six only took over ten years to come out in the wash.

has anyone been presecuted for these crimes? have any police officer stood in a court of law and been held to account for their actions, with real consequences?

will anyone be prosecuted over the ian tomlinson debacle.

or will we just get an Internal Inquiry and some peacemeal soundbytes for the complicit media.

bonkey

Sounds like you're trying to shift your position from "its a police state" to "its an imperfect system" there.

No-one here has argued that the system is perfect. I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to do so. What they have argued is that the notion that its a police state is farcical.

Mahatma coat

well sort of and kinda not

it is an imperfect system, not arguin that.

however its leanin more towards a police state when they can grab you and imprison you on spurious grounds, and then the onus is on YOU to prove yer innocence

Diogenes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

well sort of and kinda not

it is an imperfect system, not arguin that.

however its leanin more towards a police state when they can grab you and imprison you on spurious grounds, and then the onus is on YOU to prove yer innocence

I think you'll find that the burden of proof is still innocent till proven guilty.

gerrycollins

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Your right, things have come along way since the 70ies. Police have a lot more powers now than they had in the dark days. They can now tap your phone, read and copy your personal messages without a warrent, photograph you in public at every street corner, digitall follow you about as you travel to work.

just a point on this, i read in CT a lot but dont post. from what you say about police powers etc if you have done nothing wrong what the issue. Thats my opnion.

to tap a phone is quiet easy any joe can do it with a normal handset just need to find the line.

personal messages sent over the phone system again can be cracked by anyone, it well known that the phone systems while advanced are very unsecure.

Photograph you in the street, sure arent we all exposed to CCTV in shops, public places etc again if your in public you should behave and if you comit a crime then the CCTV has been worth it. what about the girl who worked for Newstalk who got attacked one night, it was so vicious that she was too traumatised to remember what he looked like. only for store CCTV and street CCTV did they catch the culprit sho had a history in his own state of such attacks.

Digitall, i dont know what that is but again, if your not breaking the law whats the worry.

DubTony

gerrycollins wrote: »

just a point on this, i read in CT a lot but dont post. from what you say about police powers etc if you have done nothing wrong what the issue. Thats my opnion.

Digitall, i dont know what that is but again, if your not breaking the law whats the worry.

Trust me Gerry, you don't want to bring this up on this forum.

Run_to_da_hills

DubTony wrote: »

Trust me Gerry, you don't want to bring this up on this forum.

gerrycollins

DubTony wrote: »

Trust me Gerry, you don't want to bring this up on this forum.

ok consider it to be my relaxed attitude to some weirdo wanting to listen in on my calls and photgraph me on the street.

All im saying and this is totally personal noting really to do with a CT,i couldnt give a heck about the few points RTDH mentioned because it doenst bother me.

Now what would bother me is interrment without trial and such.

DubTony

That's fair enough, but consider this. Since Labour took power over a decade ago in the UK, there have been over 1000 new laws introduced. Everything from ASBOs to fining people for putting their bin out on the wrong day (that's a personal favourite for the STUPID LAWS AWARD).

You may not be a criminal today, the problem is that what you do today may be acceptable today, but totally illegal in 15 years time. So in the meantime, while you don't care that the camera the Police or a local government installs at the end of your road can see everything you do, be concerned that in 2025 when it's illegal to mow the lawn between 3pm and 5pm, you'll be seen, arrested and prosecuted all because there was a camera put on your road in 2010.

I know this is a ridiculously silly example, but the thing is we have no way of knowing what will be illegal in the future. Who'd have thought in 1989 that you'd one day receive a fine for putting the bin out on the wrong day?

DubTony

DubTony wrote: »

I know this is a ridiculously silly example, but the thing is we have no way of knowing what will be illegal in the future. Who'd have thought in 1989 that you'd one day receive a fine for putting the bin out on the wrong day?

Highlighted the important bit.
How then can anyone claim that the NWO will try to make everything illegal?

DubTony

We don't, but the way things have gone in the UK in the last 12 or so years, there's a good possibility that almost everything will be illegal.

Obviously everything won't be illegal, but if a nation allows its governments to introduce silly laws, the powers that be will continue to introduce silly laws. Is it possible that maybe some day, people will be forced to walk in one direction on the left footpath, and in the opposite on the right footpath, with or against the flow of traffic?

I'll answer that for you. It's possible, but not probable. But then, in 1989 it was highly improbable that any government would fine you for putting your bin out on the wrong day.

But silly laws are just where it starts. Maybe these silly laws are introduced just to see how much intrusion the people will allow.

meglome

DubTony wrote: »

That's fair enough, but consider this. Since Labour took power over a decade ago in the UK, there have been over 1000 new laws introduced. Everything from ASBOs to fining people for putting their bin out on the wrong day (that's a personal favourite for the STUPID LAWS AWARD).

You may not be a criminal today, the problem is that what you do today may be acceptable today, but totally illegal in 15 years time. So in the meantime, while you don't care that the camera the Police or a local government installs at the end of your road can see everything you do, be concerned that in 2025 when it's illegal to mow the lawn between 3pm and 5pm, you'll be seen, arrested and prosecuted all because there was a camera put on your road in 2010.

I know this is a ridiculously silly example, but the thing is we have no way of knowing what will be illegal in the future. Who'd have thought in 1989 that you'd one day receive a fine for putting the bin out on the wrong day?

Indeed we have no way of knowing yet we seem to be assuming the worst possible scenarios.

And why shouldn't you get fined for leaving your full bin lying around the street when it's not gong to be collected? I don't know where you live but I've seen bins strewn all over a street on numerous occasions.

DubTony

DubTony wrote: »

We don't, but the way things have gone in the UK in the last 12 or so years, there's a good possibility that almost everything will be illegal.

Obviously everything won't be illegal, but if a nation allows its governments to introduce silly laws, the powers that be will continue to introduce silly laws. Is it possible that maybe some day, people will be forced to walk in one direction on the left footpath, and in the opposite on the right footpath, with or against the flow of traffic?

I'll answer that for you. It's possible, but not probable. But then, in 1989 it was highly improbable that any government would fine you for putting your bin out on the wrong day.

But silly laws are just where it starts. Maybe these silly laws are introduced just to see how much intrusion the people will allow.

So enforcing littering laws are the first step towards a fascist dictatorship?
What happens when the laws are unenforceable? Or implausible?
Or when there's nothing to suggest such a law coming through?