Did Tom Williams feign injury?

ch2008

Evans was already warming up
Williams winked on the way off
He was limping due to a bleeeding at the mouth (?)
He was pouring water in his mouth and spitting blood everywhere for the cameras

Not what you wanna see

Serenity Now!

He was all over the place and took a whallop in the mush.
This is as paranoid as the Mike-In-Water-Bottle bullsh during the RWC2003 final :eek:

sock puppet

Does it really matter? Evans was in no condition to come on. Harlequins ended up playing the rest of the game with 14 men.

remus808

TBH it looked fake.

jayteecork

The blood spit did look pretty theatrical all right.


Like one of those action movie slow mos.

remus808

sock puppet wrote: »

Does it really matter? Evans was in no condition to come on. Harlequins ended up playing the rest of the game with 14 men.

Different story if Evans got that DG to be fair.

ch2008

the fact that it didnt affect the outcome doesn't justify it.

sock puppet

karmabass wrote: »

Different story if Evans got that DG to be fair.

But Evans wasn't even taking Quins penalties by the end of the first half. I think Care would have been a better bet. What I think was wrong was Quins putting a player who was injured back onto the field.

ch2008

Its pointless getting into an argument about whether it would/did affect the score. The point is that Williams seemed to be faking under the instructions of the management. Should be punnished

juvenal

Sky did their best to stir the controversy pot, and then the commentator tried to backtrack and apologise a couple of minutes later, after Barnes had insinuated that it was a little suspect.

The injury looked kosher on the stream I was watching.

randomer

Wht I find suspicious was that Evans was already warming up on an exercise bike before the injury to Williams occured ...

ch2008

But why was Evans warming up on the bike for 10mins before that? Maybe he had a premonition?

sock puppet

ch2008 wrote: »

Its pointless getting into an argument about whether it would/did affect the score. The point is that Williams seemed to be faking under the instructions of the management. Should be punnished

My point is I don't think the management would have put evans back on if they had anyone else. Taking off a fit player to put an injured one back on the field would be insane. It could backfire and end up costing the team the entire season. Don't forget Quins are in 2nd in the GP and if they lost Evans for the next few games they could slip down easily.

MooseJam

Total fake sure didn't he wink going off

ch2008

sock puppet wrote: »

My point is I don't think the management would have put evans back on if they had anyone else. Taking off a fit player to put an injured one back on the field would be insane. It could backfire and end up costing the team the entire season. Don't forget Quins are in 2nd in the GP and if they lost Evans for the next few games they could slip down easily.

Evans had the balls to step up in the last min for a DG. Nobody else did

Stev_o

MooseJam wrote: »

Total fake sure didn't he wink going off

News just in if people blink it means they are dirty cheating b*astards :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter Leinster won so who could care less. Id be more pissed off with Jackman nearly handing Quins the game with that late penalty.

MooseJam

He didn't blink he winked

ch2008

Stev_o wrote: »

It doesn't matter Leinster won so who could care less. quote]

Nice. sextons ban should be lifted then because Munster won anyway

Stev_o

ch2008 wrote: »

Stev_o wrote: »

It doesn't matter Leinster won so who could care less. quote]

Nice. sextons ban should be lifted then because Munster won anyway

Because a boot to the face is the same to something that's completely in the air? Completely different im afraid.

ch2008

Stev_o wrote: »

ch2008 wrote: »

Because a boot to the face is the same to something that's completely in the air? Completely different im afraid.

Obviously.

The point is that losing a match doesnt absolve a player of blame.

zuroph

point is, what treatment did the doc give, it was a tiny cut not bleeding til the doc got there, then it was suddenly a gusher that couldnt be stopped? very suspect.

CatFromHue

i think its about fairness and applying the rules. the outcome of the game is not really relevant if harlequins broke a rule in relation to substitutions.

i know it sounds very stato like but its true.

and i did think it looked very dodgy, anyone ever see anyone get a cut in the mouth that bleed like that in any other place than a vampire movie?

duckysauce

defo faked it and should be looked into ****e for the game, what were they strapping up evans leg for if they were not putting him on , and the sly wink says it all not a bleedin blink;)

d-gal

This is simply why leinster is the last province supported by other people in Ireland, the fans are idiots.
I feel for the minority like steve-o is trying to make common sense here.
So how did the guy get the cut then? Doc slice him up? Give him one of the exploding pills? Or did he do what they do in the WWE and get the guy to cut him self with a razor blade??? In front of 12,000 people and 50 cameras with a million viewers peering thru them, god ye are not well in the head.

Seriously it's a game of rugby, will ye grow up

And never compare Sexton's kick to this, that's just stupidity

Serenity Now!

d-gal wrote: »

This is simply why leinster is the last province supported by other people in Ireland, the fans are idiots

*sigh* :rolleyes:

Bye-bye.

ALH-06

d-gal wrote: »

This is simply why leinster is the last province supported by other people in Ireland, the fans are idiots.
I feel for the minority like steve-o is trying to make common sense here.
So how did the guy get the cut then? Doc slice him up? Give him one of the exploding pills? Or did he do what they do in the WWE and get the guy to cut him self with a razor blade??? In front of 12,000 people and 50 cameras with a million viewers peering thru them, god ye are not well in the head.

Seriously it's a game of rugby, will ye grow up

And never compare Sexton's kick to this, that's just stupidity

The condescending comments and ludicrous assumptions (exploding pills, razor blades - wtf?) are unjustified and ridiculous.

The Sky commentary were also alluding to suspicious behaviour by the way (you'd have gathered that if you'd actually watched the match), but you clearly seem to know better. Impressive.

ALH-06

And for the record, I've never seen that much blood come out of someone's mouth since I watched the Kill Bill films. Not in rugby, boxing or any other sport.

pdelahunty

ch2008 wrote: »

Evans had the balls to step up in the last min for a DG. Nobody else did

It was fake and an absolute disgrace. I have seen something like this before when a forward feigned injury to force un contested scrums and it is the dirtiest of tactics for a team to use

smythire

someone must have punched him and risk a the chance of a ban..and missing the next huge game, so i not belive that would have happen..the english (same old england) should be asked a few tough questions...and we hould look forward to a massive game.

the blues must be holding something back for the big games, i mean there must be a few back line moves which they have to be play...they have not played any this season

zuroph

d-gal are you trolling?! I watched the match as a neutral and the injury was faked. Its not hard to bite the inside of ur lip you know. And the team doc then made it look worse. It was blatent. Glad harlequins didn't get through, they embarked on some very unsporting behaviour yesterday

anonymous_joe

d-gal wrote: »

This is simply why leinster is the last province supported by other people in Ireland, the fans are idiots.
I feel for the minority like steve-o is trying to make common sense here.
So how did the guy get the cut then? Doc slice him up? Give him one of the exploding pills? Or did he do what they do in the WWE and get the guy to cut him self with a razor blade??? In front of 12,000 people and 50 cameras with a million viewers peering thru them, god ye are not well in the head.

Seriously it's a game of rugby, will ye grow up

And never compare Sexton's kick to this, that's just stupidity

A few seasons ago they considered getting rid of blood subsitutions in the French league because they were being abused so much.

I don't really care if he cheated or not, but there's a remarkable lack of appreciation of the darker arts of rugby in your post. Sportsmen will do anything to win.

RuggieBear

d-gal banned.

zuroph

did i miss something else?

DDC1990

Are ye serious. The poor lad looses a few teeth (my mother is a nurse and recognised what the doctor was doing on the field) and ye go on about him feigning!
Yeah... he winked... but that because he couldn't give it the usual "good luck, win the game for us" job... with the blood streaming out of his mouth.

Give over with the paranoid theories, ye won the game... look forward not backwards.

barnesd

When a blood subsitution is made, the opposing team have a right to examine the player for blood, which was denied to Leinster by Harlequins. Furthermore, Evans was apparently limbering up before there was a hint of blood on Williams. It doesn't make a difference that Leinster won, it's worth investigating a possible serious breach of the rules.

Darlie

If may well have been a genuine injury, but it was the most choreographed piece of play in the whole game from the moment the doc arrived. Not going to accuse anyone of anything, but it certainly happens at lower levels so no reason to expect it not too happen further up. As someone mentioned already, biting your own lip or cheek is quite easy. This can then be added to by 'treatment'!!

Its a lot more difficult to kick a drop goal off one leg however!!

Tomtom364

complaing in vain lads.

i checked the rule book (ye i have an actual rugby rule book)

the rule book does not state that the opposing team have the right to check for blood on a player.

and as the ref on the day said. as evans was marked as tactical sub instead of replacement he is free to return as a blood sub (and only as a blood sub)

also. as the player that replaced evans had to be carried from the feild of play and so quins had no backline player on their bench it would be logical for them to have their tactical sub keep warm on the bench in case of a blood sub.

quins are well within their rights, and well within the rules.
mr.owens did not think that williams had somehow faked his blood injury.

and that is that


on a side note. would people have even thinked twice about the player returning if it had not been Nick "drop goal" Evans

Sundy

Tomtom364 wrote: »

complaing in vain lads.

i checked the rule book (ye i have an actual rugby rule book)

its on the irb web site and the local union can add in rulings in relation to checks by doctors. I dont know but perhaps the ERC have a ruling on it? The leinster back room staff seem to think there was anyway


on a side note. would people have even thinked twice about the player returning if it had not been Nick "drop goal" Evans

The thing i was most suprised by was the fact that the commentator said that evans had been warming up for the last 10 minutes. Regardless the ERC needs to investigate the incident if only to ensure rules made for players safety are not being flaunted.

ch2008

Yeh, I think it should definitely be looked into. Also should be noted that this topic was started as a point of discussion. I think its been misinterpreted as "Leinster fans up in arms" in some quarters. Not the case at all, just something I thought was worth looking into. If we had been the offending team I would be of the same opinion. and no, I dot think anyone condones what Sexton did

Tomtom364

if i am mistaken on the matter of checking for blood then i aplogise.
but i cannot find any such information on the irb site. and the erc site states that

The Tournament will be played under the IRB Laws of the Game.

so if anyone could link me to any information that contradicts what i have posted, i thank you.

on your second point.
evans warming up for 10 mins is understandable as quins would not wish to play with 14 men or a forward in their backline in case of a blood incident.

Tom10

Well I saw it live and it did look very suspicious now, i mean the blood didn't look the right colour at all, was more pinkish rather than redish.

And the point that nick evans should have stayed warm on the bench for the chance that somebody could be cut doesn't hold up for me at all. I mean how many games do u see that a back has to go off with a blood injury - very few now

Tomtom364

Tom10 wrote: »

Well I saw it live and it did look very suspicious now, i mean the blood didn't look the right colour at all, was more pinkish rather than redish.

this may be due to the water in his mouth. may have watered down the blood. just a suggestion

Tom10 wrote: »

And the point that nick evans should have stayed warm on the bench for the chance that somebody could be cut doesn't hold up for me at all. I mean how many games do u see that a back has to go off with a blood injury - very few now

i watch alot of rugby and i regularly see backs go off with blood injuries.


every second match at least if not every match a backline player will have a blood injury, thought they may not need to go off. however, the quins would have the right to take a player off if there is any blood in which case they would just be playing smart and taking their chance when it came

Tom10

Tomtom364 wrote: »

every second match at least if not every match a backline player will have a blood injury, thought they may not need to go off. however, the quins would have the right to take a player off if there is any blood in which case they would just be playing smart and taking their chance when it came

Well while i agree with you about the blood colour could be due to the water I still feel it was strange is all.

As for the blood substitution happening every other game for a back I really wouldn't agree with you on that one, I would say that it is far more rare for a back to go off bleeding compared to a forward.

This is a bit off topic but the number of games in the zurich premiership that have ended up in uncontested scrums has shot up this year, has doubled just shows that teams are willing to take advantage of the rules when it suits them, i think they had plenty of time to think of this plan with the half time break a perfect opportunity to sort it all out ya know.

Tomtom364

Tom10 wrote: »

Well while i agree with you about the blood colour could be due to the water I still feel it was strange is all.

As for the blood substitution happening every other game for a back I really wouldn't agree with you on that one, I would say that it is far more rare for a back to go off bleeding compared to a forward.

This is a bit off topic but the number of games in the zurich premiership that have ended up in uncontested scrums has shot up this year, has doubled just shows that teams are willing to take advantage of the rules when it suits them, i think they had plenty of time to think of this plan with the half time break a perfect opportunity to sort it all out ya know.

you did not read my post the way i intended it. i said that a back will have blood but my not need to go off as it is easily treated on the pitch.
i did not say that th back would have to go off with blood.

however this small blood injury would be enough for quins to be allowed to replace williams.

also, evans replacement was not injuried till the second half i belive so why would they have discussed this at half time?

Tom10

He went off 7 minutes into the second half, he was carrying the injury all game really. I mean he wasn't really fit to play any of it so really the coaches knew there was a good chance that he wouldn't be able to play 80 minutes and must have had ideas of getting the best out of him

Chucky the tree

Tom10 wrote: »

He went off 7 minutes into the second half, he was carrying the injury all game really. I mean he wasn't really fit to play any of it so really the coaches knew there was a good chance that he wouldn't be able to play 80 minutes and must have had ideas of getting the best out of him

So they fabricated Malone injury aswell?

Tom10

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So they fabricated Malone injury aswell?

Well if the blood injury wasn't real, and thats a big if then its possible that it would have been malone who did it had he been on the field.

My only point in all this is that it might be possible that they did do this and that it wasn't a real injury. No proof of it but it does warrant discussion if nothing less

wixfjord

Theres a lot of toms posting in this thread I call shennanigans :P

Marshy

The incident did seem dubious but that sort of carry on is nothing new. I don't see it as any different to props going off with "injuries" so a team can go to uncontested scrums.

Sundy

Today on the Last Word, Paul Wallace was definate that he saw williams take put fake blood in his mouth and sky have footage. Looks like Quins could be in the **** if thats true.

sickpuppy32

duckysauce wrote: »

defo faked it and should be looked into ****e for the game, what were they strapping up evans leg for if they were not putting him on , and the sly wink says it all not a bleedin blink;)

maybe hes just a winker!, i always give my replacement a wink when i'm been subed.