Boxer D Day is Tue 14th April

Sponge Bob

There is an extremely incoherent article ....certainly unworthy of translation.. in this weeks Foinse . Not up yet on their website

http://www.foinse.ie/nuacht.php

It does say that D Day for negotiations on Boxer licence/carry issues is Tuesday 15th. It also says that Eamon Ryan is most unhappy with .....emmm ...everybody i should think.

Seemingly eircom has queried the delays in issuing the formal licence too. 9 months later

watty

Mwhahahhaha

Some of us have been sceptical since 1999 of anything other than the 4 basic services launching on a RTENL/RTE/Gov funded FTA.

http://www.yourtechstuff.com/techwire/2009/02/boxers-dtt-codology.html

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/delays-give-mixed-signals-on-the-future-of-commercial-dtt-1653710.html

http://www.adammaguire.com/blog/2009/01/28/media-predictions-2009-part-3-irelands-dtt-deadline-will-change/


It's no secret that is has been unravelling for a long while. A 2012 Analogue Switch off may be even more unrealistic than the NBS, even if Boxer was on track. It could be argued that DTT doesn't need pay TV channels at all. That the Cable / Sky Pay TV penetration, plus the main UK channels free on Satellite or near border means we only need the PSB free mux anyway. Leaves spectrum for HD and 3D TV or even BB if we wanted or ever had the money.

Sponge Bob

You could even identify a likely pattern right now .

Main Transmitters all live save Holywell . ( cue VHF3 switchoff in 2012)

Relays that could interfere with UK Frequency co-ordination will be done , .....then they simply abandon the rollout ( eg Greystones Drogheda Letterkenny Malin ) .

As RTE helpfully told the Indo in February ...per your link Watty

"Sources close to the national broadcaster confirm that the contract has yet to be returned, and RTE's patience seems to be fast evaporating.

"We've spent €40m on equipment already," said one source in RTE.

"We're not ordering the next piece of equipment until we get that contract back. ( from Boxer ) "

elyod

I think everybody should forget about pay TV over DTT, it was never going to be successful anyway, unless they somehow managed to offer extremely competitive pricing.

If it turns out that there will be nothing more than the 4 basic services, then they should switch to MPEG2 since there will be plenty of space on the airwaves.

They wouldn't even need to invest in or launch an official STB as there are plenty of cheap MPEG2 DVB-T STBs on the market and every TV with a digital tuner will decode MPEG2.

It was interesting to be receiving a H.264 encoded signal and having to have near specialist equipment to decode it when they first started the engineering tests, but now it's just plain annoying.

Sponge Bob

I think they will have to give the other two consortia another shot at it , the eircom and rte ones .

If they both agree they could go into a quick resubumission / evaluation/ award/ signature process and get something officially happening by autumn.

One of those consortia at least recognised the importance of the max €10 package if they are to get any traction in the market .

Starting the whole process again would be insane , can we also find out who the clot is who awarded the licence to Boxer and sack them before the next evaluation round

watty

None of the others have money to run it,

Except maybe RTE as they bought the gear already assuming Boxer would rent. I think they are in trouble with that.

STB

Am I right in saying that Boxer hasnt actually handed the licence back ?

Its no secret that the country has been unravelling for a long time Watty. I think everyone is in trouble in all fairness. Most people are delighted to be working.

The commercial reality of launching anything in the current climate is next to impossible. People awarded any type licences in the last year most definitely find them themselves in a similar position. It is difficult enough to enter a competitive arena at any time. Given that Sky have effectively brainwashed the public into thinking they are digital TV and with the predominance of cable over decades, it might have been a tad challenging.

Very easy for naysayers to pat themselves on the back so, eh. The positives to be taken are yes, technology is moving on, we are moving to digital and are in a good position for analogue switch off. A good percentage of the country has been rolled out so far. I for one welcome the move from snowy analogue and have enjoyed the quality that DTT offers as a reception platform. We will take it for granted in the coming years. I dont think its the nail in he coffin for DTT, it may indeed be pity that more competition isnt out there through commercial. Hey but who is to say what may happen next. Plenty of room on the RTE muxes should Boxer or no one take up a licence offer. I could easily live with FTA sat and DTT.

MPEG4 isnt near specialist technology. Boxes are freely available, we are ahead of the UK. Good. Back to the dark ages of MPEG2, eh no. MPEG4 actually affords more space on spectrum through more efficient coding. In any event the UK will be updating their technology in the coming year. We dont have to live in their ear. As far as I know RTE will still have targets to meet as regards DTT coverage.

icdg

They haven't yet signed the contract for the service to hand it back. Mind you, there have been cases when the BCI and the broadcaster (usually an ILR station) signed the contract days before the service going to air, so its not really indicative. For example, Limerick ILR Live 95FM was awarded its current contract in January 2007 but did not sign in until October 2007 so it really can take that long to finalise.

Still, Boxer have been remarkable quiet since last July. There have been no press interviews, no pre-publicity, no hard information on a service which was due to go on air early this year. One wonders if indeed it will ever make it to air. As I've said before, if pay-DTT could not be made work in the UK (with a far lower amount of houses passed by cable, a far higher amount of apartments where Sky cannot be installed and a, dare I say it, snobbishness towards satellite dishes in parts), what hope has it here in a market where, in urban areas, practically everyone is already signed up to either Sky or cable and in the rest of the country, Sky has had a ten year head start and cable a nearly forty year head-start in parts of Dublin.

The Cush

icdg wrote: »

Still, Boxer have been remarkable quiet since last July. There have been no press interviews, no pre-publicity, no hard information on a service which was due to go on air early this year. One wonders if indeed it will ever make it to air.

Since last July Lucy Gaffney of Boxer DTT has spoken at the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (BCI) national conference last Sept, speaking on the "lack of public awareness of the changeover which will affect every person with a television set in the country". Well at least Boxer got that right!

In Feb she said ‘‘It’s a complex process,” She was, she said, "unable to hazard a guess as to when the contract deal might be finalised".

So little information from a company commenting about the lack of DTT (switchover) information from others.

channelsurfer

I bet Boxer are trying to get the licence for a minimum amout. It would be interesting to see who was the 2nd bidder whether it was one vision or easy tv. usually if the winner fails to negotiate the contract terms the next bidder gets a chance. but as lucy gaffney says it can take months to sort things out with a public body contract going back and forth the solicitors etc over and over.
My bet is that boxer dont take up the the contract and rte run it via easy tv albeit on a much lesser scale.

tretle

Hmmm... I cant say I would be sad to hear that the commercialism of dtt has failed before it has left the ground. Its better than it failing after launching and leaving a small group of early adopters high and dry once transmisions get switched off.
I don't see the problem in liscencing out on a channel per channel basis like britain anyway rather than trying to licence out in bulk to a private company.
And the contract was too long anyway, should be a 4 year contract not 12.
And think about the possibilities this gives the government if it does fall though.
I sent Eamon an email stating my opinion on the subject about a month ago.
There is so much more that could be offered with the extra infrastructure, dedicating one mux for cripled internet use for example. So that everyone has the ability to use say port 80(internet browsing) as a free as a public service.
Give just the right amount of bandwidth to enable the public to avail of information and further educate themselves but not enough bandwidth to abuse the service playing games online or downloading stuff.
And this could also be used by future iterations of dtt hardware to allow true interactive tv.
The way I see it is if boxer fail it gives us the oppertunity as a country to innovate in this area.
It would also mean that we would have some chance of having more irish based broadcasters offer alternative fta channels which would boost employement and offer competition which would in turn create better irish television.
As for RTE's stating that they wont buy any more hardware until the contract goes through, this is the point the government should say we wont give you any more television licence funding until you stop acting like prats and continue the rollout.

The Cush

tretle wrote: »

As for RTE's stating that they wont buy any more hardware until the contract goes through, this is the point the government should say we wont give you any more television licence funding until you stop acting like prats and continue the rollout.

The RTE source in the article was referring to the purchace of DTT equipment for the commercial muxes.

The rollout continues, since the article was published RTE have issued three further tenders for - the upgrade of 11 transposer sites for DTT, the supply & installation of a Digital Multiplex Head-End System for PSB Multiplex at Donnybrook and the development of a new DTT site at Kilduff.

The RTE rollout of DTT appears to be on schedule with almost all main transmitters now testing together with a number of relays and mast and antenna construction underway at Mullaghanish and Truskmore.

As has been said in the forum previously the EU recommended analogue switchoff date of 2012 applies to current analogue broadcasting so the rollout must continue with or without Boxer.

Regarding the tender above for a Digital Multiplex Head-End System for PSB Multiplex at Donnybrook from what I can read in the Boxer DTT application (Sec. 8) the multiplexing was to be carried out at the BT Multiplexing Centre at Citywest, has RTE decided to bypass Boxer and multiplex the PSB mux itself?

scath

I don't think we should just drop the idea of pay DTT if Boxer doesn't go ahead. There would be demand for premium channels like Sky/Setanta Sports on DTT. So why should that not happen still? These would not be the business of the PSB Mux. So a pay DTT mux is important for those that don't want satellite or cable. It provides choice for them. In the UK that is offered. The only unfortunate thing is the Freeview boxes. Its unfair that if a person wants pay DTT there they have to switch boxes which is why I think Freeview HD boxes should not come out, rather Top Up TV should provide the HD boxes which would be offered FTA. So I think either Easy or Onevision will wish to reapply if the license is retendered. In particular I think the Onevision consortium would be financially well placed to rollout pay DTT. Easy has the problem of Liberty already involved in cable and RTE NL the ad revenue drop.

danjo

Tuesday 15th.??
Just wonder about the accuracy of this article.
Next Tuesday 15th. is September! Maybe just a typo but one wonders.
Article still not up on website.

DMC

The Cush wrote: »

Regarding the tender above for a Digital Multiplex Head-End System for PSB Multiplex at Donnybrook from what I can read in the Boxer DTT application (Sec. 8) the multiplexing was to be carried out at the BT Multiplexing Centre at Citywest, has RTE decided to bypass Boxer and multiplex the PSB mux itself?

Wasn't it always the case that the RTÉ mux was to be independent of Boxer?

watty

It was and it is. The PSB mux is nothing to do with Boxer.

Article up now
http://www.foinse.ie/nuacht_det.php?nid=278

Apogee

There is the usual misinformation in the article such as suggesting that if Boxer goes wallop, then 350,000 will be without RTÉ, TV3, TG4 come 2012. Or that when DTT is fully rolled out, that nobody will need an aerial as the settop box will suffice - where have we heard that before?

The one interesting bit of info is they claim Eircom (OneVision) came second in the BCI competition - I don't remember seeing this reported elsewhere.

watty

Yes, total nonsense. No country will turn off Analogue anything without most people already having Digital Whatever.

The 2012 is not enshrined in law, it's a target (which will be missed).
The PSB Mux with 4 channels happens anyway. Which is all we need really on Terrestrial.

Basically you get proper Widescreen

scath

2012 is not enshrined in Law yet. But isn't it proposed to be stated in the Broadcasting Bill 2008 as September 30th 2012. International agreements say 2015. The BCI seemed open on it, but if the Broadcasting Bill enacted says 2012, then the BAI as it will be will then have to adopt 2012 as the date. So for now yes. I guess we'll have to see what is finally in the Broadcasting Act 2008 when it is enacted. http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=9433&&CatID=59. I saw mention of that date somewhere but will have to reread the Bill again to be sure am correct.

radiospan

danjo wrote: »

Tuesday 15th.??
Just wonder about the accuracy of this article.
Next Tuesday 15th. is September! Maybe just a typo but one wonders.
Article still not up on website.

Must have been a typo, the website says "Is é Dé Máirt na seachtaine seo lá na cinniúna ".

So today.

MattEmulsion

2012 is the target set down by the EU, Ireland has been given an extention more or less to 2015, however given that the UK will be switched off by 2012 (Northern Ireland being one of the last areas to switch) from a commercial point of view getting as many people switched over by 2012 makes sense as from then onwards anyone using an ariel to recieve UK channels will have a black screen.

Sponge Bob

The article is now up on their site.

http://www.foinse.ie/nuacht_det.php?nid=278

An example of the incoherence I mentioned in the first post is at the very end.

" Ón mbliain 2012 ar aghaidh cuirfear deireadh leis an gcomhartha analógach ar fud na hEorpa. Ciallaíonn sé seo nach mbeidh aeróga ag teastáil feasta mar gur trí bhoscaí bairr a thiocfaidh an comhartha teilifíse chuig do theach."

(roughly but accurately)

'In 2012 analogue transmission ceases, from 2012 on YOU WILL _THEREFORE_ NO LONGER REQUIRE AN AERIAL only an STB'

Jeez FFS!!!! , no aerial FFS

bk

watty wrote: »

The PSB Mux with 4 channels happens anyway. Which is all we need really on Terrestrial.

Basically you get proper Widescreen

Given that my parents will need to get 4 STB's (about €400), I'm sure they will be delighted to pay that for just 4 channels!!

I'll tell you now, if people need to spend hundreds of euros on new TV's, STB's, VCR's etc. only to get just the same 4 channels, there will be war.

danjo

plazzTT wrote: »

Must have been a typo, the website says "Is é Dé Máirt na seachtaine seo lá na cinniúna ".

So today.

Yes, typo alright. I subsequently read the article when I saw the link from Watty. So today is or was the day.

elyod

bk wrote: »

Given that my parents will need to get 4 STB's (about €400), I'm sure they will be delighted to pay that for just 4 channels!!

I'll tell you now, if people need to spend hundreds of euros on new TV's, STB's, VCR's etc. only to get just the same 4 channels, there will be war.

Exactly, unless they practically give away STBs, they should revert to MPEG2 so a large chuck of people will not need an STB and those who do could get them for 25 GBP. It will be a long long time before MPEG4 STBs are that low in price.

watty

Set boxes will be under €50 in no time.

TV's will eventually have Digital built in. Switch over won't be 2012, more like 2015 to 2020!

VCRs are DEAD. as are DVD recorders. The future is PVRs.

When I moved to Co. Clare in 1983 from Belfast my £600 of TV gear that had got 4 channels only got One and half channels.

watty

MattEmulsion wrote: »

2012 is the target set down by the EU, Ireland has been given an extention more or less to 2015, however given that the UK will be switched off by 2012 (Northern Ireland being one of the last areas to switch) from a commercial point of view getting as many people switched over by 2012 makes sense as from then onwards anyone using an ariel to recieve UK channels will have a black screen.

No they won't. UK DTT power will be increased. Many larger mast users/poorer UK signal users (in Republic) are switched to Free satellite already and those with stronger signals get UK DTT via aerial. After ASO, more people will be able to get UK DTT, but it will be less people than used to get Analogue simply because the free satellite TV gives more, more easily already.

watty

elyod wrote: »

Exactly, unless they practically give away STBs, they should revert to MPEG2 so a large chuck of people will not need an STB and those who do could get them for 25 GBP. It will be a long long time before MPEG4 STBs are that low in price.

To suit people that bought UK gear, which is obsolete this year? 405 Line Action Replay. UK should never have relaunched 405 after WWII, but been 625 line.

Why should we launch an obsolete tech when at least 20 countries are using MPEG4?

Remember, no-one Has to buy a Digital set box for DTT for at least 2 years! The Irish retailers where told about issue of MPEG2 only iDTvs and some at least have been available in MPEG4 versions.

There isn't even a public service yet.

Certainly 2012 isn't even the deadline.
I have a TV aerial for analogue TV. I have tested DTT solutions. But at home I have 2 satellite set-boxes and 3 PCs with dual Satellite tuners. I'm in no rush to get a DTT box, and no one else need or should be either.

By the time of ASO, a DTT PVR will be the equivalent of under €90 and a plain DTT set-box under €30.

mrdtv

watty wrote: »

No they won't. UK DTT power will be increased. Many larger mast users/poorer UK signal users (in Republic) are switched to Free satellite already and those with stronger signals get UK DTT via aerial. After ASO, more people will be able to get UK DTT, but it will be less people than used to get Analogue simply because the free satellite TV gives more, more easily already.

I have the decided feeling that Boxer is a dead duck: why would you bother in the current dismal economic climate in ROI? I wouldn't if I were an investor (and this is my business btw). The key factors are:

a) No business model for pay DTT in ROI. Competitors are Sky, UPC etc.

b) FTA overspill replaced by Freesat. A perfect substitute.

c) Neighbouring market uses legacy MPEG2 and unproven DVB-T2. No leverage.

d) Addressable ROI TV/STB market circa 400k households. PEANUTS IN EU context.

Cancel! This is precisely what Boxer are probably thinking. RTENL have been caught with their pants down: a lack of due diligence caused by RTE's desparation to have an indigenous DTT solution.

A much better solution would be:

a) Basic ROI DTT solution with MPEG2 for FTA and MPEG4 for pay mirroring France. Means UK and French boxes can be used.

b) Combined DTT/Freesat boxes bypassing rights issues.

c) Freeze rollout to relays as can't afford it or have it funded.

It may not be technically the best but economically its the most affordable in the mess that Ireland now finds itself.

Incidentally this may offend Watty and Co but Ireland is FAR TOO SMALL A MARKET TO AFFORD AN OURSELVES ALONE SOLUTION, recalling the 1960s go it alone tv standards choices in Ireland!!!

I think further delay of the order two to three years is now likely in Ireland. Plus ca change plus ca meme chose en Irelande!

scath

I don't agree that switchoff will be 2015 or 2020. Most countries are switching over in 2012 with the exception of a few. As I've said, if its to goes into the new legislation then it has to happen.

And RTÉ are keen to switchoff as early as possible but people need time and the interference issues with the UK that would be with increased DTT power resulting from earlier switchoff will cause problems. Earlier switchoff of analogue saves RTÉ simulcast costs, remember.

I do foresee public disquiet over the effects of switchover requiring a set top box for each TV. But it will have to be explained to the public that this is the case with cable and satellite also and its an evolutionary thing like black and white to colour was. Of course its unfortunate, the extra cost but the functionalities will be of benefit. Its a one-off. Which is why I think the pay DTT should go with T2 and MPEG4 so that people don't have to change boxes in a few years.

Switching over post 2015 would cause problems as the UK may increase power at their DTT sites and this would cause intereference to Irish DTT. So I think there's a strong chance it'll happen 2012 with the legislation.

Lets see what happens in the papers tomorrow regarding Boxer. Hopefully clarity will come

Sponge Bob

I have said elsewhere that the rollout to relays will, in my opinion, be frozen save where UK co ordination is involved.

And what about the poor "self help" relays one wonders , there are dozens of them .:eek:

I'm also in the camp who believe we were right to go MPEG-4. Why use obsolete standards for the sake of those who bought gear which was never intended for this market? Should we do what we did in the 60s and simulcast MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 muxes like the dual 405/625 service? Probably not viable.

While we did go it alone in the 60s with PAL-I this was short lived, only three years. BBC2 then launched with PAL-I. The DTT situation will be even better because UK DVB-T2 boxes will work fine over here whereas UK PAL-I sets didn't in most areas as they had no VHF tuner.

The issues regarding MPEG-4 won't matter by analogue switchoff. Give it time I say.

The Cush

DMC wrote: »

Wasn't it always the case that the RTÉ mux was to be independent of Boxer?

If you read through the BCI DTT applications RTÉ was considering outsourcing the multiplexing of the PSB Mux to others.

BT are not shareholders in Boxer and will do pretty much the same job they did during the DTT Trial (multiplexing and network services provider contract), they too have to sign contracts with Boxer (just like RTÉNL & the BCI) for multiplexing and related services.
In the Boxer application the PSB Mux was to be multiplexed at the BT Multiplexing Centre at Citywest in Dublin, then the 4 muxes were relayed back to the Link House in Donnynrook via physically resilient uncontended point-to-point Gigabit Ethernet over fibre.

From the OneVision application

From discussions already held with RTÉNL, it is understood that RTÉNL would be willing to favourably consider the out-sourcing of the multiplexing of their Public Service Broadcasting multiplex to OneVision consortium, in particular Arqiva, should we be successful in the BCI process. The facility provided by Arqiva would be further scalable to house the additional 2 muxes which would come on-line in 2012 following ASO. This will lead to a very cost effective and technically robust design.

From the Easy TV bid which RTÉ was part of

RTÉNL are offering an integrated Multiplexing, Distribution and Transmission service only, as described above. As an aside, RTÉNL will seek multiplexing services (to be carried out in Ireland) from 3rd party providers, to be provided directly to RTÉNL in Ireland for both the public service multiplex and BCI multiplexes. RTÉNL are aware that there are many purpose built facilities for hosting and monitoring this type of multiplexing / telecommunication equipment in Ireland and in order to ensure that the most efficient solution possible is achieved a competitive tender process will be undertaken. Should this tender process arrive at a technically equal or better solution that is more cost efficient than what RTÉNL has proposed, RTÉNL have reserved the right to use such facility.

STB

I'm sorry but you are posting nonsensical rubbish.

mrdtv wrote: »

I have the decided feeling that Boxer is a dead duck: why would you bother in the current dismal economic climate in ROI? I wouldn't if I were an investor (and this is my business btw). The key factors are:

c) Neighbouring market uses legacy MPEG2 and unproven DVB-T2. No leverage.

So. We have moved to a higher quality and more efficient encoding system. That is a good thing. The UK no longer dictates what the Irish do. The UK does not use DVB-T2 yet and when they do it will be for HD. Have you seen the quality of Irish DTT as a matter of interest ?

mrdtv wrote: »

d) Addressable ROI TV/STB market circa 400k households. PEANUTS IN EU context.

For a start, there are 1.7 million households in Ireland. More and more people will be moving to FTA given the economy.

mrdtv wrote: »

Cancel! This is precisely what Boxer are probably thinking. RTENL have been caught with their pants down: a lack of due diligence caused by RTE's desparation to have an indigenous DTT solution.

RTE nor Boxer could have forseen the disaster the economy is in now.:rolleyes:
RTE by the way were also one of the bidders for the commercial DTT contract.

mrdtv wrote: »

A much better solution would be:

a) Basic ROI DTT solution with MPEG2 for FTA and MPEG4 for pay mirroring France. Means UK and French boxes can be used.

b) Combined DTT/Freesat boxes bypassing rights issues.

c) Freeze rollout to relays as can't afford it or have it funded.

It may not be technically the best but economically its the most affordable in the mess that Ireland now finds itself.

Incidentally this may offend Watty and Co but Ireland is FAR TOO SMALL A MARKET TO AFFORD AN OURSELVES ALONE SOLUTION, recalling the 1960s go it alone tv standards choices in Ireland!!!

I think further delay of the order two to three years is now likely in Ireland. Plus ca change plus ca meme chose en Irelande!

Why would we use 2 encoding methods ? MPEG4 has been adopted. French boxes can be used anyway for those who are not cocerned with MHEG5 data. It may be a solution for people in cross border areas who want everything without having to upgrade their UK harware (not in a border area by any chance ?)

Combined Combo boxes are freely available. I would love to heear your take on how this is solving rights issues !

By the way RTE NL are well advanced in their rollout of DTT ensuring that Ireland will be a good position for analogue switch off.

I do agree that we are proably living in that world of the combo box right now. I certainly am. No more bills please.

scath

MPEG2 use would be a waste of spectrum when the UK are already starting to move to MPEG4 and DVB-T2. T2 is not unproven. It is being tested by the BBC and there is every likelihood it will be proven efficient. Okay one can feel sympathetic to MPEG2 buyers, but who told them this would be the Irish standard? They made that decision themselves. And now they want the rest of us to suffer with an old technology because of their enthusiasm. That would not be fair to the rest of us. That's the cost of early mover. You go to enjoy the early service. But don't expect us to pay the loss for that with less channels available to us with MPEG2.Sorry to sound harsh. But that's just my view honestly.

That was their choice to buy them. There is no point wasting spectrum because they took a chance on buying a UK system. That's life. Meanwhile the rest of us should get the best system we can. We count too, who have waited for the official word from RTÉ NL etc.. before buying anything or have bought the UK one and accept the consequences for a better system in the greater interest. I mean I bought a MPEG2 usb stick and I'm not complaining. I mean I just didn't do my homework properly but I've been able to get an MPEG4 software.

So forget about using old technology. The majority should get more channels and the most advanced system we can. That in my view is T2 & MPEG4. And also T2 is not just about HD.

The plan in the UK is to move the other multiplexes over to T2 and MPEG4 on UK DTT to free up capacity over the next number of years. This takes time. Once there are enough T2+MPEG4 boxes among the public other multiplexes can switch more quickly. Always the 1st means reallocation which is what Ofcom has done.Using T2 means we can have more subscription channels and FTA channels.

Was looking for the document that mentioned other UK muxes to migrate to T2. Will look again.

scath

http://www2.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/dttfuture/responses/sonyuk.pdf

http://www.pvrjunction.co.uk/tag/dvb-t2/

Some of these docs might be off topic but some reading anyhow ;-D

elyod

scath wrote: »

MPEG2 use would be a waste of spectrum when the UK are already starting to move to MPEG4 and DVB-T2. T2 is not unproven. It is being tested by the BBC and there is every likelihood it will be proven efficient. Okay one can feel sympathetic to MPEG2 buyers, but who told them this would be the Irish standard? They made that decision themselves. And now they want the rest of us to suffer with an old technology because of their enthusiasm. That would not be fair to the rest of us. That's the cost of early mover. You go to enjoy the early service. But don't expect us to pay the loss for that with less channels available to us with MPEG2.Sorry to sound harsh. But that's just my view honestly.

Nobody has ever bought into MPEG2. It just happens that every TV available to Irish consumers over the last few years, and the large majority that will be available to them for the next few years by default has an MPEG2 chip inside.

The way people are going on is as if everyone has bought into a British system and now they should be punished for colluding with the enemy.

The reason people are suggesting that MPEG2 would possibly be a more sensible choice is because it would be FAR more cost effective for both the providers of DTT and the consumers of DTT.

Yes MPEG4 is more efficient, lower bit rates means more space yada yada. More space for what exactly? It's very doubtful that there will be any more that 4 channels on DTT.

I'm looking at Chelsea vs Liverpool on RTE2's MPEG4 2.8mbits/s stream and on ITV's MPEG2 4mbits/s stream, on a PC screen. The difference in quality is minimal.

I just think going with MPEG2 for SD channels is far more convenient for everyone. Save MPEG4 for possible HD versions of the 4 basic channels down the line. Those who want HD will buy a box, those who don't, won't.

STB

elyod wrote: »

Nobody has ever bought into MPEG2. It just happens that every TV available to Irish consumers over the last few years, and the large majority that will be available to them for the next few years by default has an MPEG2 chip inside.

The way people are going on is as if everyone has bought into a British system and now they should be punished for colluding with the enemy.

The reason people are suggesting that MPEG2 would be possibly be a more sensible choice is because it would be FAR more cost effective for both the providers of DTT and the consumers of DTT.

Yes MPEG4 is more efficient, lower bit rates means more space yada yada. More space for what exactly? It's very doubtful that there will be any more that 4 channels on DTT.

I'm looking at Chelsea vs Liverpool on RTE2's MPEG4 2.8mbits/s stream and on ITV's MPEG2 4mbits/s stream, on a PC screen. The difference in quality is minimal.

I just think going with MPEG2 for SD channels is far more convenient for everyone. Save MPEG4 for possible HD versions of the 4 basic channels down the line. Those who want HD will buy a box, those who don't, won't.

The brits bought into MPEG2 technology.

There are MPEG4 Tvs available to buy within Ireland. Boxes - yes within the EU - gain plentiful without MHEG5 but not in Ireland over the counter. I'm sure there will be in the coming months.

I would agree that it is a pity that we are not going the french route making it illegal to sell improper goods and for them to label them correctly (they after all know the spec - they are the experts in RETAILING the goods and are ultimately responsible to the consumer.

To go down the route of going back rather than forwards only suits one group - reatilers trying to make a fast buck. We do not want the headache the Uk wil have of switching over to DVB-T2. A double switchover! Talk about confusing people.

RTE have already invested in the encoders, anyhow.

Embrace change, we've made a good call on futureproof technology, no half measures with muck MPEG2. In the context of digital switch on and analogue switchoff its very important we get it right.

Yada Yada Yada.

scath

MPEG2 would not be more cost effective for DTT providers in the medium term. It would also make us incompatible with the UK HD multiplex that will start being deployed. For border viewers and those who'll be able to receive Freeview HD that'd be crap. That'll mean viewers having to pay to upgrade boxes to receive HD or buy new TV sets. I don't think that would be fair. It certainly would not be environmentally friendly. There are enough countries adopting MPEG4 for us to go with it & get cheaper boxes. Also MPEG4 boxes will be backward compatible with Freeview. Having two encoding systems running increases cost to the DTT operator.

There will be more than 4 channels on DTT. The Irish Film Channel is to go ahead. RTÉ News Now is ripe for addition also. RTÉ3 is likely, probably made up of Archive programming and Higher Education programming perhaps as RTÉ has much archive programming already which it will use on the International Freesat Channel when that goes ahead.. Also 3e is ready for DTT. So already there are 5 channels ready for DTT launch and 2 likely to follow. That = 7. Likelihood is Oireachtas TV won't go ahead. I don't see a prospect of TG4's 2nd channel in the current climate until the economic situation improves. So I don't know what'll happen to 8. Surely RTÉ could be enabled to broadcast the Oireachtas and European Parliament coverage until there's money for the Oireachtas channel, similar to what happened with TG4 until 2007 I guess with that RTÉ could have a case for a license fee increase but in the current climate that may not go down well with Joe Public, many of who are feeling the pinch in their wallets.

icdg

scath wrote: »

There will be more than 4 channels on DTT. The Irish Film Channel is to go ahead. RTÉ News Now is ripe for addition also. RTÉ3 is likely, probably made up of Archive programming and Higher Education programming perhaps as RTÉ has much archive programming already which it will use on the International Freesat Channel when that goes ahead.. Also 3e is ready for DTT. So already there are 5 channels ready for DTT launch and 2 likely to follow. That = 7. Likelihood is Oireachtas TV won't go ahead. I don't see a prospect of TG4's 2nd channel in the current climate until the economic situation improves. So I don't know what'll happen to 8. Surely RTÉ could be enabled to broadcast the Oireachtas and European Parliament coverage until there's money for the Oireachtas channel, similar to what happened with TG4 until 2007 I guess with that RTÉ could have a case for a license fee increase but in the current climate that may not go down well with Joe Public, many of who are feeling the pinch in their wallets.

Ironically enough Oireachtas TV is actually the most ready of those to go ahead, all the equipment and facilties are already installed for years and used to provide a CCTV feed of the Dáil and Seanad to members and around Leinster House. All you need is to get it from Leinster House to the head end. Unfortunately Oireachtas TV will never make any money and in this economic climate nobody will pay for it.

RTÉ News Now is not really a channel. All it is the last RTÉ News TV bulitten repeated ad infinum until the next one comes on. Still its cheap and could fill space but I wouldn't count it.

An RTÉ Three full of archive programming could prove quite expensive once Irish Actor's Equity become involved. I'm not saying it won't happen but its that phrase "rights issues" (or in this case, "repeat fees") raring its ugly head again.

3e...rights issues again. It has been running to date on a pay-TV basis, so I rather suspect that it has not cleared all its programme rights for FTA transmission. This isn't to say that it hasn't though.

Most public bodies will have their budgets cut next year. That has been pretty widely signaled by the Minister for Finance. I'm not sure how the IFB expects to fund a TV channel in such a climate. The IF Channel could actually prove the biggest commercial proposition of the above - but it will need start up capital. Any money the IFB puts towards the IF Channel will be money diverted from encouraging new film and television production which quite frankly is the IFB's core remit. Not sure if that is really the best use of its money. IMO the IF Channel is worthwhile but should be housed under an existing broadcaster (RTÉ or TG4) rather than diverting part of the IFB's (smaller next year) budget.

watty

elyod wrote: »

Nobody has ever bought into MPEG2. It just happens that every TV available to Irish consumers over the last few years, and the large majority that will be available to them for the next few years by default has an MPEG2 chip inside..

rubbish

A minority of sets had any DTT decoder.

IN the coming years all Tvs & setbox are MPEG4 & MPEG. MPEG2 only chips are obsolete.

The choice of standards it not to match what UK was doing 5 years ago, but what all of Europe is doing now. If rollout was delayed another 18 months (politically impossible) we would be doing DVB-t2 MPEG4.

AFAIK absolutely NO-ONE is using MPEG2 for a new roll-out. Only existing older rollouts starts a few years ago are MPEG2.

The Cush

The EU has strongly advocated that by 2012 all analogue terrestrial TV transmitters in Europe should be switched off in order to free up radio frequencies for other uses. This date was decided in early 2005. The EU believes that this date will be achieved by most EU countries, see their latest report attached.

The 2015 date is 17 June 2015 as decided at the ITU’s Regional Radiocommunication Conference (RRC-06) in Geneva (2006), is "the date after which countries will no longer be required to protect the analogue services of neighbouring countries against interference and be able to freely use frequencies assigned for digital services". This date is generally viewed as an internationally mandated analogue switch-off date, at least along national borders.
The ITU's WRC07 co-allocated UHF channels 61-69 (790-862 MHz) to the Mobile Service (for IMT applications like 3G, 4G, WiMAX) from 17 June 2015. Most European countries can start Mobile Services immediately if they protect broadcasting services in neighbouring countries.

The BCI has stated the 2012 date "It's not written in stone," "It was the target date."

scath wrote: »

2012 is not enshrined in Law yet. But isn't it proposed to be stated in the Broadcasting Bill 2008 as September 30th 2012. International agreements say 2015. The BCI seemed open on it, but if the Broadcasting Bill enacted says 2012, then the BAI as it will be will then have to adopt 2012 as the date. So for now yes. I guess we'll have to see what is finally in the Broadcasting Act 2008 when it is enacted. http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=9433&&CatID=59. I saw mention of that date somewhere but will have to reread the Bill again to be sure am correct.

Part 8 (section 139) of the latest version of the Bill relates to Analogue Switch-Off. The Bill dosn't fix a date for switch-off.
30 September 2012 is the date DTT coverage must match analogue coverage on the date the Bill is passed. RTE must report to the Minister within 21 days of the passing of the Bill and every 6 months thereafter on the rollout of the PSB Mux.

The Minister will decide on a switch-off date with reference to the following four headings and in consultation with viewers and others

• - DTT coverage
• - the availability of the PSB Mux
• - the percentage of the population with DTT receivers capable of receiving the PSB Mux
• - the expected coverage and expected ownership of DTT receivers at a future date

The BAI and RTE will report to the Minister at least every 6 months from the passing of the Bill to 31 December 2012 on the 4 headings above.
RTE will provide switch-off information to viewers.
The BAI will run the National DTT Campaign from 1 Jul 2009 in consultation with stakeholders.

scath

A yer right Cush. Well that isn't much different to the Broadcasting Amendement Act 2007 where it is left to the Minister to decide. So still no fixed date. So July 2009 starts the Info Campaign. Well maybe it'll be left to the BCI instead of the Dept's campaign. Basically that could be a Digital Ireland Campaign involving RTÉ, Boxer etc... Boxer DTT Ireland have notified the Competition Authority of their joint venture since January 2009 so one would think that they're ready to proceed unless they've gotten very quick cold feet. Anyhow 3 months is good enough notice for it to stay high profile pre-launch.

Yea make good points ICDG on the other 4 channels. There are a few issues there to be resolved over the next few months with those. It would be pretty disappointing if we only got the 4 FTA channels we have. I agree regarding Oireachtas TV. I also think the IFB channel should come in like TG4 under RTÉ or TG4 until the money is there. Personally I think infrastructure should be shared. Adding it to TG4 would better use of TG4 facilities and expertise which is why I mentioned a TI4 group made up of TG4, IFC etc...all with separate divisions but sharing facilities and expertise. Nothing to stop the HOTO channel being part of it too although I think probably handiest making it a division of RTÉ for logistical reasons. I'd put an education channel and Info channel as part of the TI4 group also.

I know RTÉ News Now is a rolling repeat but still RTÉ can expand and that and add Oireachtas coverage to it to fill it out by providing a summary of Oireachtas proceedings in the morning/afternoon. Donno re the IFC. But they're to be allowed take ads so that's a plus for them at least.HOTO (Oireachtas TV) would have been very handy for the politicans for Lisbon 2.

The Cush

scath wrote: »

Boxer DTT Ireland have incorporated themselves since January 2009 so one would think that they're ready to proceed unless they've gotten very quick cold feet.

Boxer was incorporated on 15th April 2008 (No.456079) as Silver Window Limited, before they submitted their application to the BCI last year. Later changing their name to Boxer DTT Limited.
Neither of the other two applicants - EasyTV and OneVision incorporated before submitting their applications.

scath

Correction. What I meant was the the putting into effect of the shareholders agreement, ie Boxer AB and Communicorp joint venture, ie the investment monies, notified to the Competition Authority on January 16th 2009, not incorporated Yer right, it was incorporated on 18th of April 2008 as Silver Window and the name was then changed. 11. Boxer was incorporated in Ireland on 15 April 2008 to apply for the
DTT contracts. So neither of the other two incorporated before submission. I wonder was that weighted at all by the BCI?

Ancillary restraints
26. It is envisaged that the shareholders agreement to be entered into by
Communicorp and Boxer Sweden will include non-compete provisions
preventing both companies from directly or indirectly engaging in the
provision of subscription based television services to final customers in
the State for a period of twelve months

Nowt in the papers today regarding Boxer or the BCI. I guess it'll be a few days before we read anything.

e17

article on independant. Does not shead any more light

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/delays-give-mixed-signals-on-the-future-of-commercial-dtt-1653710.html

slegs

e17 wrote: »

article on independant. Does not shead any more light

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/delays-give-mixed-signals-on-the-future-of-commercial-dtt-1653710.html

7 weeks old...was posted and discussed here at the time

lawhec

If this was 2005 or even 2006 a decent to strong case for at least the PSB channels to be broadcast with MPEG2 video could have been made. However as we're now in the middle of Q2 in 2009, it would be seen as unwise to commit to MPEG2 only when many other countries are now confident enough to be pressing ahead with MPEG4 - this includes countries with populations similar or even smaller to Ireland.

The main problem is, and it has to be recognised, the prevalence of "Freeview" designed equipment. When the "trials" from Three Rock and Clermont Carn were taking place we had one nutter here (not mentioning names) telling everyone to buy IDTV's designed for the UK market to view the Free-to-air channels. Even then with these trials in MPEG2 nearly everyone here warned about purchasing MPEG2 only equiptment (my own advice was that if you really wanted it, buy the cheapest STB available and not an IDTV with a four figure euro sum) as nothing was set in stone at this point. Right now many households have DVB-T tuners and MPEG2 decoders in their televisions by default, but just because they are there doesn't mean that it should ultimately warrant a national DTT network to comply to this when a technically better system can be rolled out. Short term gain can hamper future development and getting this right now is important. This doesn't necessarily mean the straight adoption of DVB-T2 however, even the DVB project are advising countries to not use DVB-T2 as a straight substitute for analogue networks. For its own needs DVB-T MPEG4 is the right path to go down at this period of time.

scath

Okay the DVB Project is recommending not going for DVB-T2. What are the reasons for that? Is it to give T2 longer for testing/ is it for market reasons of costs being higher/ is it just that they want to try and exhaust stocks for manufacturers of T1 & MPEG4?

Why is migrating from analogue to T2 & MPEG4 not good?

My opinion is it would be better to go down the UK route, do the switch in 2 jumps and get the max spectrum we can with lowest consumption.That's what'll make the pay DTT operation most successful by having more channels. That's part of what T2 is about.

Why have this thing in 5 years having to switch to T2. No get it right now, consumers will thank stakeholders for not having to change equipment in 5 years time. Lets migrate in 1 leap and be compatible with the UK. T2 & MPEG4 now with the Granada region. Doesn't mean RTÉ NL have to use T2 straight away. Just that the consumer end equipment will be ready. To me its the same argument as the MPEG2, MPEG4, though I know MPEG4 has afew years on T2. No point in in between jumps for us.

There's only one negative to T2, is higher cost, economies of scale. But there'll be enough traction from the UK Switchovers to have the boxes, can do a bulk order with the UK on them surely?

Apogee

scath wrote: »

Why have this thing in 5 years having to switch to T2. No get it right now, consumers will thank stakeholders for not having to change equipment in 5 years time. Lets migrate in 1 leap and be compatible with the UK. T2 & MPEG4 now with the Granada region. Doesn't mean RTÉ NL have to use T2 straight away. Just that the consumer end equipment will be ready. To me its the same argument as the MPEG2, MPEG4, though I know MPEG4 has afew years on T2. No point in in between jumps for us.

Because there are no DVB-T2 modulators or receivers available outside of a few test facilities.

STB

T2 is pie in the sky stuff and does not concern us. Infact can we stop talking about it, because it will only confuse people. The brits do not use it and WHEN they do it will be for HD services.

The bottom line about adopting the right technology is getting good quality married to the availability of receivers scath and at affordable prices. We'll have covered the lot through good timing.

There IS no gun to the head to move to DVB-T2. Where are you getting your 5 years for that move from.

Ok, Last time the UK use MPEG2, we ARE and WILL continue to use MPEG4 H264 with MHEG5.

Set in stone. No more need for speculation. Its a done deal.