law as a post grad... Help!

Kaitlyn

I'm graduating this year from English Literature in Trinity and have decided that I'd like to pursue a career in law.
I've been advised by friends to do the postgraduate diploma in law at DIT then get into a Masters programme at one of the universities, they said i'd be better off. However, I'm considering doing a 2 year LLB in Limerick or the 3 year one in Galway. I realise the job situation is terrible at the moment so maybe it would be no harm to do a 2 year law degree and then get a masters afterwards.
I'm just very confused as to what I should do! especially being told getting another honours degree would be like a step backwards and that I should just get on with the FE-1s...
If anyone has any advice or an opinion to offer please help!
has anyone done any of these courses?
Kaitlyn

BuffyBot

Welcome to boards.ie

It's generally considered bad form to post the same thread across different forums, so I've deleted your other posts and left this one here in the Postgraduate forum - which is the most appropriate place for it

PK2008

I know a girl who did her undergrad in pyschology and did a masters in Law- she's a solicitor now

El Siglo

The FE1s are pretty okay with some grinds in gcd or something, but you won't get an apprenticeship with a firm with the way the economy has gone, just have a read of the times or indo they had articles in them last week. And the thing is apprenticeships are kind of like the 'monkey in the wrench' for becoming a solicitor, unless of course you know people who'll sort you out. There's the grad dip in legal studies in King's Inns, that's a 2 year part-time course which on completion means you can do the Barrister-at-Law Degree which is pretty good. The DIT postgrad is a good introduction to law but that's it, not worth anything else, you'd fly through the FE1s but that's it. Now, there is a Masters in QUB, which is two years, full time, thesis and all, and it means you could become a barrister, now I'm not 100% sure of whether it's recognised by King's Inns, but its recognised by Inns Court of Northern Ireland, and in England and Wales, which is pretty good, here's the website:http://www.law.qub.ac.uk/schools/SchoolofLaw/ProspectiveStudents/PostgraduateTaughtDegrees/MasterinLegalScience/

You're better off doing some kind of a Masters, because even if you decide to not become a solicitor/barrister they're still pretty handy degrees to have under your belt. I'm in favour of the QUB course in that regard, have a sister who did the P.Grad.Dip in Legal Studies in DIT, wasn't worth paper it was written on for applying to King's Inns, the Grad Dip in King's Inns is pretty tough, the staff are awful, totally unfriendly atmosphere, not student oriented in any way, it's a very depressing place. However, there's no thesis, it's just exams, repeats in August, it might be part-time but really it requires 110% all the way, lots and lots of reading, but considering your undergrad degree you'd be well able for it. The LLB in UL is good, bit expensive, but again it's pretty good and UL is a top notch place. I saw the NUIG LLB, seems a bit all over the place, the UL one is much more structured and it's only 2 years.

Postgrads:
DIT: Useful for FE1s, that's pretty much it,
King's Inns: Useful for BL, not a nice place (God Awful),
UL: 2 years full time, but it's competitive and expensive,
NUIG: Handy for BL, bit ad hoc and expensive for 3 years,
QUB: It's a Masters, can sit BL in UK (except Scotland because of Scot's Law), probably cheaper than the UL, NUIG and King's Inns courses, but it's two years and takes a bit of work.

Hope that helps.

P.S:
No offence is intended on any party who has pursued said courses portrayed in this post.

Kaitlyn

Thanks so much that was more than helpful
Its good to know theres no hope of getting an apprenticeship now rather than later, Il spend a few more years in college and it will save me the time, effort and stress of trying to get one!
Could I ask your opinion on one more thing?!
There's also a one year LLB in UCC, I know its more so a postgrad for BCL graduates but im from Cork so it would be handy! I contacted the law dept and they said that if I were to get the PgDip at DIT I could apply for the following year having a law friendly qualification. So my question is whats the difference between the one year LLB as opposed to the 2 year and 3 year LLBs at NUIG and Limerick for example? Is an LLB an LLB at the end of the day or are they different?! In my head it seems like 2 qualifications in 2 years beats one qualification but then I don't know what im talking about really.
Also, Is UCC a better law school than UL? Would it have a better reputation when it comes to looking for a job?
Thanks again!

El Siglo

Kaitlyn wrote: »

Thanks so much that was more than helpful
Its good to know theres no hope of getting an apprenticeship now rather than later, Il spend a few more years in college and it will save me the time, effort and stress of trying to get one!
Could I ask your opinion on one more thing?!
There's also a one year LLB in UCC, I know its more so a postgrad for BCL graduates but im from Cork so it would be handy! I contacted the law dept and they said that if I were to get the PgDip at DIT I could apply for the following year having a law friendly qualification. So my question is whats the difference between the one year LLB as opposed to the 2 year and 3 year LLBs at NUIG and Limerick for example? Is an LLB an LLB at the end of the day or are they different?! In my head it seems like 2 qualifications in 2 years beats one qualification but then I don't know what im talking about really.
Also, Is UCC a better law school than UL? Would it have a better reputation when it comes to looking for a job?
Thanks again!

That's pretty sound of UCC to take on PGradDip people from the DIT, I'm a bit of a snob some times. An LLB is an LLB at the end of the day. Essentially an LLB is like 'getting your foot in the door', passing the FE1s with apprenticeship or passing the BL Degree at King's Inns is what really matters, so it doesn't matter where you do it, so long as it's a recognised qualification. Also, make sure that it has recognition by various legal bodies, in particular; King's Inns, Inns Court of Northern Ireland, Gray's Inn, Lincoln's Inn, The Inner Temple, The Middle Temple (Inns of Court), because once the LLB is recognised by these bodies, you're sorted. They're equal qualifications from reputable institutions, but if I was choosing between UL, UCC, and NUIG, I'd probably go for UCC, given it's starting to move up on the THES (League Tables) and in this case, has a bit of an edge over the others. A good few prominent Judges (Brian Mac Mahon) and a Taoiseach (Jack Lynch) went to UCC so it has a pretty good reputation in that regard. In your case, if your from Cork and have the opportunity to do a course that decreases your expenditure etc... then do it. I'd say the exact same thing to anyone asking from Dublin, Galway or Limerick any course that can reduce your living expenses, rent etc... is worth doing. Also if you think about it: PGradDip = 1 Year + LLB (UCC) = 1 Year = 2Years, LLB (Limerick) = 2 Years, LLB (Galway) = 3 Years part-time, they're really all approximately all the same in time.;)

Kaitlyn

Thanks a million for all that information, thats all my queries sorted!
Really appreciated

vinchick

I would take my time getting a law course done. It's almost impossible to get a job at the mo and many of my fellow BCL grads have had to take jobs outside of law as we just could not get one. Fingers crossed the market will pick up in few years.

vinchick

Kaitlyn wrote: »

you mean like a full on 2 year postgraduate law degree? or something like the one year LLB in UCC?

I think you would have to do a course that covers the basic vital law subjects

1) Tort 2) Constitutional 2) Criminal 4)Contract 5) EU 6) Legal Systems and Methods.

Then if you would like to be solicitor you would have to look at a course which would offer Equity.

If you want to be a barrister you would need one that covers Administrative Law.

You dont need to do this as you are already a graduate you could go straight into the FE1s. However these would be very intense as you have never covered these subjects in a classroom context and you would be up against people with law undergraduates (some with masters) who would have 3, 4 or 5 years of studying law full time.

Suprisingly the thing that is most difficult about adapting to law is not learning the law itself but learning how to frame and answer and argument. There is a certain way of doing things that can only be learned from constant practice and reading legal texts, cases and articles from scholars alike. There is a method to the way you read a problem and tricks to the way you respond to it. This is why I think you should do a course that will give you adequate time to ajust and adapt to legal writing. As one of my classmates said month 2 into BCL "Its like learing a new language".

I know a few people who got their primary degree in many different areas (econmics, engineering, politics) and turned to law but they all went back and did the full BCL undergrad. This is an expensive option but the good news is is that you will only have aprox 12hrs of class time a week which leaves room open to have a part time job. Most of your time is spent in the library anyway so you can be flexible.

However if this is not an option go for a postgrad that offers the subjects I mentioned above, these are the vital ones. Other than that take your time as I said before there are little to no jobs in the sector at the moment and too many people are quailified (hense they are trying to make the FE1s are hard as possible).

Any more questions just ask

randomchild

First, I want to thank all the people who have posted in this thread. I am hoping to go to DIT next year to study their law postgrad, and the advice and information to be found in this thread to be very useful. Now, I have a few questions:
1/ Once I am finished the degree I am hoping to do my FE1s and specialize in criminal law. How has the current climate affected my chances of getting an apprenticeship? Would I be better off doing UCC's masters in Criminal Law first before I attempt them?
2/ I am on a higher education grant and that will be covering the fees for the DIT course. I know I am allowed to do a second postgrad as long as it is an academic progression from the first. Does anyone know if I can do my FE1s, then before the apprentice stage, do this masters while retaining the privilege of the grant? How about after the apprentice stage?

Thanks guys!

vinchick

randomchild wrote: »

First, I want to thank all the people who have posted in this thread. I am hoping to go to DIT next year to study their law postgrad, and the advice and information to be found in this thread to be very useful. Now, I have a few questions:
1/ Once I am finished the degree I am hoping to do my FE1s and specialize in criminal law. How has the current climate affected my chances of getting an apprenticeship? Would I be better off doing UCC's masters in Criminal Law first before I attempt them?
2/ I am on a higher education grant and that will be covering the fees for the DIT course. I know I am allowed to do a second postgrad as long as it is an academic progression from the first. Does anyone know if I can do my FE1s, then before the apprentice stage, do this masters while retaining the privilege of the grant? How about after the apprentice stage?

Thanks guys!

Getting an apprenticeship is next to impossible at the moment.You would really need something to make you stand out like a bucket load of experience in the sector, for example if its criminal law you are interested in volunteer with the probation services or the Gardai. This will show you ave a knowledge of the sector and would give you an edge over the next person. I would also help if you know a solicitor in the particular firm you are applying. For criminal law you will not be applying to the big commercial firms so the odds are that you will have to foot the bill for Blackhall yourself as the smaller/mid firms do not tend to fund this. Some do but its rare, so get ready for debt. But I would say be patient keep trying and apply for all interships paid or not. The firms are more likely to offer a traineeship to a past intern. However I do know people who have 1st class hons law degrees and cant even get an interview for an internship at the moment so be patient, keep applying and build up your experience.

Criminal law is really interesting, you will get some great stories!

As for the second question you will have to ask yor local authority. They all have different ways of doing it. Call them up and ask for a hypothetical.

Now I have a question for you! How did you go about getting the grant? I am trying to self fund my masters which is not looking well as I have just recieved a pay cut. I have no idea about grants. Could you give me a quick idiots guide to?

Student21

I'm also thinking about doing the PGDip in Law at DIT, my cousin did commerce in UCD, followed by the DIT course and now shes a trainee at Arthur Cox! I have a friend on the course at the moment who did Arts in UCC, hes just sat his first 4 FE-1s which he thinks went well and has quite a few summer internship interviews lined up.
I've applied to the course and been in to speak to the head of dept. Its the country's leading conversion course into law and its offered at Level 9. Much better than taking the step backwards to another level 8 degree in my opinion. A masters is the way to go and you can apply to a masters in most the universities once you have the PGDIP.
CHEAPER AND FASTER ALSO!!!

randomchild

Cheers for the advice! This website tells you all you need to know on grants!

ramblingcelt

I have been looking at the grad dip courses offered in the UK. Both the college of Law and BPP are private colleges but are allowed offer degrees by the Chacellor's Office. BPP has courses in London and Leeds and can offer an LLB in just over a year. It's an option and many of the UK law firms state they prefer these courses to university courses. http://www.bpplawschool.com/programmes/gdl/index.htm

The King's Inns course here is well regarded but a lot of work. At least you can claim the fees against tax from this year on!

jpwicklow

Hi just read this thread there and am probably too late to make any of a difference but here is my opinion.

Last year, that is 2008-2009, i successfully completed the DIT PgDip in Law and can say i would not take it back for anything. Here are the main bonuses:

1- The ability to sit in on all lectures which is fantastic because you find yourself getting to grips with the law as a whole very quickly. For example, i did a months work experience half way through the year because you get the month of january off as the rest of DIT sit exams and i found that i had a far better grasp of the law than a second year student from an NUI college. I could see the bigger picture and knew far more. I was told this by seniour counsel when i presented a skeleton argument which was used in a case.

2- The lectures - Some of the lecturers are fantastic and rightly deserve praise. Fergus ryan, elaine fahey and Ruth cannon are all great as is niall neligan, who is perhaps the funniest making it very easy to learn the subject. They all have countless books and articles to their names which is reassuring.

3- Mind has gone blank, oh the library is actually quite good a lot of new text books but missing one or two bits but nothing much. Perhaps hailsbury's law of england which i swear by coz its fantastic but thats about it.

Downsides to the DIT postgrad

lecture times are 9-11 then 4-6 everyday monday through thursday which some people found annoying but which i personally liked!

Kings inns does not accept it in any way shape or form! Trust me i've argued with them, i won the moral argument and guess what they just went "no"!

Not all of the Fe-1 syllabus is covered!!!!!!! Somethings you just dont have time to cover but notes are generally provided - last year ruth cannon did mortgages during a week off in order to get them covered for the fe-1's!

Cant think of anything else to say, which is largely due to the fact that reeling in the years is on in front of me here!

Sad thing is that those barristers whom were so very generous in providing me with an experience that many never get to see until they are actually called to the bar convinced me to follow them and i now am faced with the prospect of two years part-time at the inns! so moral of the story if you wanna become barrister just go straight there otherwise DIT is more than sufficient.


Edit: I dont think an LLB makes a difference! Well i know full well that it doesnt! What i would do if i were you is take the PgDip to get a grounding in the substantive law in the are you want so Criminal and Constitutional would be essential in your case (word from DIt is they are thinking of adding evidence this year also!!!! i have that on good authority) and then do an LLM, something which you can easily get into because about 20 of last years students have done just that! My local authority stated that i could get funding for LLM but you might jeopardize your chances of getting it for blackhall which is also available! A woman i know recruits for one of the big five and told me that a masters is essential and an LLM however i know people who just dont have one and have their contract secured so its swings and roundabouts!!

I know whats going to happen to you!!! You going to do DIT then your going to want to go to the criminal bar like myself and end up having to do the two years in kings inns! Because the Inns will only accept subjects from the particular course! So Pgdip + UCC LLB will not suffice!

dennie

hiya, im doing the post grad diploma in law at dit next year, but i seen here its not recognised by kings in...what does that mean?

jpwicklow

it means that if, after having completed the postgrad diploma, you decide you'd like to become a barrister, you WILL have to complete the society's Diploma in law notwithstanding that you have already studied those subjects!

I would advise you to do the King's Inns diploma if you would like to practise at the bar! The course is part-time two years! However, i use the words part-time loosely!!!!!! Due to recent changes in the course it is now more demanding than ever! We are now taught advocacy straight away in tutorials and have debates and moots in tutorials! Trust me the course is extremely well run!!

If you have any further questions you'd like answering please dont hesitate to ask!

dennie

Thank you! if i just want to the fe1's and practice as a lawyer, does it matter then if its recognised by the kings inn would i still have to do another course do you know? its just i can only afford to do the course in dit because i get a grant which doesnt apply for kings inn so i wouldn't be able to afford to that one

jpwicklow

No no the King's Inns only regulates entry to the profession of barrister. Its the law society which regulates entry for solicitors. Under the law society's rules you only have to have an honours degree or have passed the 1st exam and subsequent to that pass all 8 FE-1's.

The DIT course merely tries to prepare you for the FE-1's. What i will say is that my friends have gone on to try the fe-1s two of whom have done extremely well and havent failed one! The reason being i and indeed they believe is because rather than doing the prep courses offered which dont confer any qualification they did DIT first as a base and then used the knowledge they gained to study independently afterwards. A note of caution - they both said that dit comes nowhere near to completely covering everything! but then again why should they! they get the main subjects covered very well and after that it really think its up to you to cover the more peripheral points!

Staff are good in DIT and for example in Land law which is taught by Ruth Cannon doesnt examine Mortgages or judgment mortgages in the dit exam! but she gave extra lectures on that during the midterm or something for anyone who intended to do FE-1's. I didn't attend and now i'm here studying for the king's inns land exam finding i have to cover the bloody yokes!

Vis-a-vis the grant your dead right! i'm in that position myself this year! the only comfort i can get is that when i go on to do the BL the grant will cover almost all of it!

Best of luck with your future career and again any questions about DIT over the summer etc contact me here and i'll be obliged to help.

Regards

JP

itchyblood

Sorry to be bumping old threads but I didn't want to make a new one.

I'm a bit confused at the moment and really unsure of what to do.

I'm a final year Arts student, and I want to go into Law when I graduate. I don't think I want to be a barrister, but instead - a solicitor, although I am unsure about which course to take in case I change my mind and want to have the chance of doing the Barrister at Law degree.

So my main options are:

The PgDip in DIT and then maybe go on to do an LLM if this is possible? Although both are level 9 so I would only get a grant for PgDip I presume.

Or the two year Dip in Legal Studies at King's Inns.
Is the Dip in Legal Studies a level 9? I would assume if I'm moving upwards, my local authority would provide a grant for me, as I've been getting one for my BA, but I'm not sure.

Is it really worth going to the "horrible place" that is King's Inns for two years, just to keep the option open for the doing the BL and becoming a barrister?

Or would it be better to take the PgDip in Law in DIT, sit the FE-1s, and try to go on and do a Masters?

What do people think?

ramblingcelt

King's Inns course has a good reputation but a lot of work. I agree a crap area!

It may be worth looking at training in the UK system which is the Grad Dip in Law (one year) followed by the Legal Parctice course (also one year). Distance learning and part time options are available.

You can take one or two extra modules to qualify to practice in Ireland after. The advantage of the UK system is that some places offer a Masters with a little more work on top of the Grad Dip.

Go to your career office and ask for the brouchure on Law in the UK and see also the websites: http://www.get.hobsons.co.uk/advice/law-conversion-course and
http://www.slowlybecomingirish.com/2010/01/surviving-irish-qltt-converting-legal.html

Worth noting the UK legal firms have set up the College of Law and the BPP Law school to have more control over staff training. Both have received the right to award degrees in the UK and are well respected. The UK firms can be very particular as to where you get you qualification!! Be careful.

Carlow IT have a 4 year part-time Bachelor of Law in Wexford and Carlow. If you are in rush it is a well run course and perhaps a cheaper option if yoy have some work to keep you fed and watered.

Hope this helps!

itchyblood

I have considered studying in the UK, but the unfortunate thing is that it would cost a lot of money and it will mean having to stay in the UK for at least a few years. I'm not sure if I want to fully commit to that idea.

Also, I know that a lot of Law firms in the UK pay trainees to study during their GDL in places like BPP or The College of Law, but they have to have trainee contracts organised. I think it may be tough for someone like myself to get a trainee contract, would I be right? But then again, I have two weeks experience in a solicitors office here, I'll hopefully be getting a few more days in another firm, and I'm Irish! How realistic is to apply for a VAC scheme and get funding from a UK firm?

Argh, my head is melted.

jpwicklow

may i suggest that you take the masters in common law in UCD. Two years and works equally well for both the King's Inns and Law Society. Problem solved.

One thing i will say is make sure you are going into this long journey determined if you want to be either a solicitor or barrister. At the same time don't forget having a law qualification is useful for many other things too. But if you want to practice have a good idea what you would like to do. I ended up changing and deciding to become a barrister after working with one. I change i will never regret!

If its a barrister you want to be then there is only one place i would suggest and that is the Inns! Its fantastic and the standard is very high. Pay very little attention to those who say the inns is all wrong because they are usually those who have not been there or those who were only there for one year.

itchyblood

That Masters in Common Law in UCD seems really interesting. Do you know much more about it? It looks relatively new as well. Plus, it's full time, and so I would probably be entitled to funding for it... I think.

jpwicklow, in your opinion, is it much more difficult to be a barrister in Ireland, as opposed to a solicitor? Several people told me that you really need some money and some good contacts in order to get on well in it. Is that the case do you reckon?

jpwicklow

As far as i am aware you would qualify for a local authority grant for the Masters in UCD. An important clarification for you is that unfortunately until the Barrister-at-Law Degree you can't obtain funding from the HEA. The reason is that the diploma course is 1 hour short of being full-time and as such i'm afraid doesnt qualify.

Ok it is much easier to be a barrister in ireland. It is however very hard to be successful. Aleternatively, it is extremely difficult to obtain a traineeship for Blackhall place and thus to become a solicitor. Contacts will not always get you everywhere and hard work will always help. Therfore, i would suggest that you go to court and see what happens in court. If you have a passion for the law or an interest in it, and your main focus is oral advocacy then there is no comparison! The bar is very exciting. I have a few friends who are devilling and some who are no longer and they will all tell you the same; it is very rewarding. but be under no illusions it is difficult. Likewise, if you think you would prefer to give first advice to clients and be the first port of call, work in an office have better holidays and better pay then maybe working as a solicitor is to be preferred.

I read earlier that you have worked in a solicitors office, how did you find it? what aspects interested you??? Have you visited the new criminal courts of justice or the four courts and watched some oral advocacy?


jpwicklow, in your opinion, is it much more difficult to be a barrister in Ireland, as opposed to a solicitor? Several people told me that you really need some money and some good contacts in order to get on well in it. Is that the case do you reckon?

jpwicklow

may i clarify that to be successful in either of the professions you have to work extremely hard!!!! There is no easy option study-wise!

itchyblood

I'm just looking at the modules included on that course, would you say they provide a good grounding for the FE-1s? The module titles seem a bit abstract to me, I thought they'd sound more straight forward, haha.

Thanks for that though, I feel that I should do something that wouldn't rule out the possibility of being a barrister.

No I haven't gone into any courts, and I always say to myself I should. What do you think is the best court to go into and at what time? Should I pop into the Four Courts and see what's on the register of cases or something? How should I go about doing it, or is literally as straight forward as I think it is?

jpwicklow

Actually they are a bit long winded you make take them to represent the subjects though! Friend of mine is on the course i'll ask her!

Go down to the courts and get a feel for it! God, where to go! Well i'd recommend the new Criminal Courts of Justice complex. All the criminal courts under one roof you'll be able to wander in and out of trials, sentencing etc etc depending on what day and court you visit. Personally i find it more entertaining to stick to the circuit courts because this is where the majority of action takes place. You'll get to see a bit of everything there! As for the four courts its hard to be sure where to send you. Personally i love the personal injuries stuff coz the facts are usually entertaining to say the very least and its interesting to see the application of the law in that area. Early morning is the best time and you should by all means go to the masters court to see the young baby barristers in action. You might not be fully sure what they are looking for, but its garanteed to be funny as he gives them a particularly hard time quite frequently! Word of warning do not take off your suit jacket hahahaha had a friend of mine get bollocked for doing so one day!

itchyblood

Haha, ask her to come onto this thread! Ah no, but if you could get anything from her that'd be great, thanks! Cheers for the advice about the courts, I'll definitely have to visit a few soon.

salmon1

hey just wondering if anyone done the 2 year LLB in limrick?any one got any feedback on it cheers

littlemizz99

Hi Everyone!

I just said I would put this in here as it seems you are all postgraduate/aspiring postgrad students!

I am a postgrad in Queens Belfast and we are currently organising a Mastering Law Conference for all postgraduate taught students to present a paper on any topic in an informal setting. Its a really great opportunity for all taught students to present a paper and just get that extra line on there CV's for any job interview and in particular for the PhD Application!

Our website for the conference is http://www.masteringlaw.net/ if anyone is interested or get in touch with me an i will give you any additional details!

Paul-M

I know this is an old thread but someone might be able to to advise me. If you were to sit your FE-1's how easy would it be to obtain the qualifications necessary to practice as a solicitor in Ireland and the UK?

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that studying in England there are some extra modules that can then be taken to practice in Ireland, is it as straight forward the other way around?

Any help much appreciated.

Smugglers90

Does anyone know what the timetable for the Postgraduate Diploma in Law in DIT is like? Is it still 9-11 and 4-6 Monday to Thursday?

Thanks

Lockstep

I just finished an LLB at NUIG so would be happy to answer any questions anyone has (because I had a lot of law in my undergrad the LLB was 1 year for me though)

kickhamsking

Hi all,

Just looking for some advice. I'm a final year Arts student and I see my future in Law, and I would hope to specialise in Corporate Law. I was thinking of doing the PgDip in DIT then doing my masters in law and international commerce or law and corporate governance in QUB. Would this be a good way of going about it? Also do I need to do the FE 1's to stand any cgance of getting a job?
Really confused and apologies if my questions are a little stupid but any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated.