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Rosary-chanting protesters force euthanasia talk to be abandoned

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    #122
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    My understanding is assisted suicide is where the person who commits suicide is given assistance to do so by a third party, but they do the killing act themselves.
    Whereas with euthanasia a physician (or other third party) is actively involved in the termination of the life.

    Ie. me giving you a gun and you killing yourself in the former, as opposed to me using the gun the in second.

    At least that's my understanding.


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    #123
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Surely there's no fundamental difference beyond how weak the person dying is?


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    #124
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Zillah wrote: »
    Surely there's no fundamental difference beyond how weak the person dying is?
    A person doesn't need to be physically dying, take for example the rugby player who was confided to a wheelchair whose parents assisted his suicide. He wasn't either physically weak or in danger of death, it always comes down to 'quality of life'.


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    #125
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    A person doesn't need to be physically dying, take for example the rugby player who was confided to a wheelchair whose parents assisted his suicide. He wasn't either physically weak or in danger of death, it always comes down to 'quality of life'.

    In my book thats not euthenasia. I have a parilysed friend who is very active and well respected professionally and the world would really be worse of without him.

    Life is hard and we all face challenges. Maybe therapy/drugs could have helped him.


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    #126
    DapperGent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,838 ✭✭✭DapperGent


    CDfm wrote: »
    Life is hard and we all face challenges. Maybe therapy/drugs could have helped him.
    Maybe that's not your call. :rolleyes:


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    #127
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    DapperGent wrote: »
    Maybe that's not your call. :rolleyes:

    I can't think how anyone would consider suicide normal.

    So if we get suicide signed off by a doctor -its ok is it. Will we put people with depression in there too- like the US Irish assisted suicide fugitive from justice is. Junkies too?

    Religion or no religion people have a will to live. No one can be that defined by rugby.


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    #128
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    A person doesn't need to be physically dying, take for example the rugby player who was confided to a wheelchair whose parents assisted his suicide. He wasn't either physically weak or in danger of death, it always comes down to 'quality of life'.

    Quality of life is the decider for me. I reckon in the case above those involved may have underestimated the quality of life that he could have had.
    Unfortunately, I don't believe anybody there would have been in a position to reliably make such a decision. Each case would have to be decided on according to the situation, it would be impossible to make a hard and fast law that would cover every eventuality.

    Of course in Ireland there's always MRSA to do the job if they do keep you on life support for long enough.


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    #129
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Interesting article here:

    http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=1492621

    Absolutely bizarre!


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    #130
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    CDfm wrote: »
    Life is hard and we all face challenges. Maybe therapy/drugs could have helped him.
    He wasn't depressed from something drugs could fix. As far as he was concerned, any quality of life was irretrievably gone. You can be flippant and suggest "life is hard" but none of us will ever know what he suffered or have the right to question his choice.
    CDfm wrote: »
    I can't think how anyone would consider suicide normal.
    Who ever said it was normal?
    CDfm wrote: »
    So if we get suicide signed off by a doctor -its ok is it. Will we put people with depression in there too- like the US Irish assisted suicide fugitive from justice is. Junkies too?
    Why are you deliberately muddying the water with this tripe?
    CDfm wrote: »
    Religion or no religion people have a will to live. No one can be that defined by rugby.
    CLEARLY some people don't have a will to live. You do realise he made several unsuccessful suicide attempts, before finally being allowed to die by a family who understood his suffering.


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    #131
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CDfm wrote: »
    So if we get suicide signed off by a doctor -its ok is it. Will we put people with depression in there too- like the US Irish assisted suicide fugitive from justice is. Junkies too? .

    'If Alien Space Bats invade, will we be forced to commit suicide before they eat us?'.

    Kindly don't head towards the absurd.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Religion or no religion people have a will to live. No one can be that defined by rugby.

    You'll find that he was restricted in far more areas than just Rugby, as he was paralysed from the chest down with almost no use of his fingers. Please consult the facts, rather than disrespect the mans descision making.


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    #132
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Dades wrote: »
    He wasn't depressed from something drugs could fix. As far as he was concerned, any quality of life was irretrievably gone. You can be flippant and suggest "life is hard" but none of us will ever know what he suffered or have the right to question his choice.

    Who ever said it was normal?

    As a Dad I cant think of anything more awful. I couldn't cut it.

    CLEARLY some people don't have a will to live. You do realise he made several unsuccessful suicide attempts, before finally being allowed to die by a family who understood his suffering.

    Forget religion Dades , I just couldn't do this at a personal level. It would break me.

    Why are you deliberately muddying the water with this tripe?

    You are right as its a different subject. I just cant see how we can have protections in there as the mindset is different for doctors.

    You know like , instead of " suicide by cop" like you get in the USA you get "suicide by doctor". I know I am not expressing this correctly at all Dades and thanks for pointing it out.


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    #133
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    CDfm wrote: »
    As a Dad I cant think of anything more awful. I couldn't cut it.
    Also as a Dad, I feel that unless you're faced with such a situation, speculating on how you'd react is meaningless. The final act is a request for compassion.

    It's a horrific prospect, which is why people in that situation should have the choice.


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    #134
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    CDfm wrote: »
    I just cant see how we can have protections in there as the mindset is different for doctors.

    are you suggesting that the public needs to defend itself from doctors who are hell-bent on putting them down?


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    #135
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    are you suggesting that the public needs to defend itself from doctors who are hell-bent on putting them down?

    Hi, I'm Harold.:eek:

    harold_shipman.jpg


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    #136
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Hi, I'm Harold.

    Hi Harold, it's nice to know you are representative of most doctors, or, in fact, any doctor except yourself.


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    #137
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    Hi Harold, it's nice to know you are representative of most doctors, or, in fact, any doctor except yourself.

    Twas tongue in cheek tbh. Probably should have put one of these:)


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    #138
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    are you suggesting that the public needs to defend itself from doctors who are hell-bent on putting them down?

    No- Im not saying that I am saying that it must be very difficult for a doctor dedicated to healing to do.I dont know if schizoid is the right word but its where you have two competing ideas/priorities in your mind at the same time.

    So that kind of decision is better handled seperately.

    The other thing is that if a doctor withdraws life support ( hydration and nutrition) which is legal. I cant see why he cant administer some pallative/pain relief and this is one thing I saw in Len Doyals writtings. I hope I am wrong and this doesnt happen.See where Im coming from.

    Its not straight forward its complex and I find it so on an ethical level.

    Do you get where I am coming from - its difficult to put words to it.


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    #139
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    CDfm wrote: »
    No- Im not saying that I am saying that it must be very difficult for a doctor dedicated to healing to do.I dont know if schizoid is the right word but its where you have two competing ideas/priorities in your mind at the same time.

    Nope, schizoid is not the right word. In face, schizoid is possibly the very opposite of what you intented. Schizoid refers to Schizoid personality disorder, which describes someone who has no interest in other people's feelings, no interest in forming relationships with other people and just being completely cold and emotionless. i understand what you mean though, about conflict in the doctor's role as healer and reliever of pain.
    CDfm wrote:
    The other thing is that if a doctor withdraws life support ( hydration and nutrition) which is legal. I cant see why he cant administer some pallative/pain relief and this is one thing I saw in Len Doyals writtings. I hope I am wrong and this doesnt happen.See where Im coming from.

    Of course the doctor can give pain relief, but it's hard to avoid misery when the body is shutting down one organ at a time and slowly fading away to nothingness, it puts severe stress on the body's hormonal system and there really isn't any way of truly taking away the sensation of slowly dying apart form knocking them out.
    CDfm wrote:
    Do you get where I am coming from - its difficult to put words to it.

    I do. Just don't bandy the word "schizoid" around!

    PS - the prefix "schiz-" does mean "split", but unfortunately most of the words associated with it have taken on psychiatric significance so its unwise to use them. For example, being of two minds on something could be not entirely unaccurately described as schizophrenia, but we don't say that for obvious reasons


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    #140
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    Nope, schizoid .... is possibly the very opposite of what you intented

    Thanks that describes it perfectly- there doesnt seem to be a word for it.
    Of course the doctor can give pain relief, but it's hard to avoid misery when the body is shutting down one organ at a time and slowly fading away to nothingness, it puts severe stress on the body's hormonal system and there really isn't any way of truly taking away the sensation of slowly dying apart form knocking them out.

    ( Very reassurring)

    Really but ...................
    CDfm wrote: »
    It makes you think. If I go to hospital I will be asking what the deal is & while I am not the suicide type but if you gonna go that way well I want the happy stuff:)

    No CD - Matthew is your Doctor not your dealer and its what time is my medication not when am I gone to score

    I see you ignored my earlier post?
    Just don't bandy the word "schizoid" around!

    Would I ever.

    Ahem- no backseat modding:D


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    #141
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    CDfm wrote: »
    I see you ignored my earlier post?

    I saw it, I just didn't quite get what you meant. Must mean I'm not giving you enough strong opiates.


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    #142
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    I saw it, I just didn't quite get what you meant. Must mean I'm not giving you enough strong opiates.

    Too right. And I hear its all natural - I wouldnt want to be poisoning my body now would I -not where Im going:D


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    #143
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MatthewVII wrote: »

    PS - the prefix "schiz-" does mean "split", but unfortunately most of the words associated with it have taken on psychiatric significance so

    So where does the word agnostic come from:D


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