Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

marti8

No, I'm not xenophobic or racist. I am just wondering how much it costs the State in dole payments to cover EU nationals in Ireland who have worked but are now unemployed and entitled under the current regime to social welfare payments?

Yes, they paid their taxes, fair enough. Personally I think it would be a good idea to allow those non-nationals to get social welfare until they have in effect recouped the ammount they have paid in taxes but then say no more.

A few months before all the eastern European countries joined the EU I was in an eastern European capital on holiday and while there (I don't want to say which one) I met the Irish ambassador and we had an informal chat during which the issue of eastern Europeans flooding into Ireland was raised and both myself and the ambassador couldn't believe that the government were going to allow it!

I know we needed, at that time, workers for the Irish economy but what we could have done was introduce a "green card" scheme, simple as that. It would have been the easiest thing to do but no. Non-nationals are costing, yes costing not contributing, the Irish economy hundreds of millions of euro on social welfare payments each year. Plus we have added strain on our public services. Now, today, in these economic times we have to say enough is enough. If there aren't enough jobs for Irish people then non-nationals need to return to their own countries. And I would say the exact same thing, although I wouldn't like it, if the roles were reversed.

Each country, each State needs to look after its own citizens first. Simple as that. Now, I have to add that I am in reciept of a social welfare payment, am I a burden on the State, yes of course I am but I as an Irish citizen have the right to expect the State to support me if I cannot work or if I cannot find work. And I hasten to add my spouse is a non-national, you might say "kick her out too!" if you try to reverse it and use my own logic but not so, as an Irish citizen I am entitled to marry whom ever I see fit, Irish or not, and have the right to be financially supported. That is the basis of the welfare state. Our welfare system was designed for Irish people and their dependants not half of Europe! (I know it's an exageration)

Ireland is a soft touch and has been for ages, it CANNOT continue given our current problems, we're running out of money fast while still paying non-national the same social welfare entitlements as Irish nationals! I know many folks might disagree with me and say I am focusing on a vulnerable group but they miss the point, in Ireland we have X ammount of money for social welfare, we can barely help our own citizens nevermind everyone else's! But I think many folks will, hopefully, also agree with me.

Mena

marti8 wrote: »

I am just wondering how much it costs the State in dole payments to cover EU nationals in Ireland who have worked but are now unemployed and entitled under the current regime to social welfare payments?

Then

marti8 wrote: »

Non-nationals are costing, yes costing not contributing, the Irish economy hundreds of millions of euro on social welfare payments each year.

Make up your mind please? Also, do you have references for that claim? I'm not saying it's wrong at all, but I would like to see the actual data.

marti8 wrote: »

Yes, they paid their taxes, fair enough. Personally I think it would be a good idea to allow those non-nationals to get social welfare until they have in effect recouped the ammount they have paid in taxes but the say no more.

I'd agree with this (as a non-national)

In fact, scrap it altogether, for every one. The whole idea of a welfare state still amuses me. Use the money to create jobs.

greendom

Nonsense, as long as they abide by the rules and live in Ireland they are as entitled to the benefit payments as any Irish person - just as any Irish person living in another EU country is entitled to the benefits that apply in that country. It's part of what makes the EU such a great institution.

Your post is wrong on so many levels but I'll leave it at that for now.

jhegarty

I think anyone who has paid tax should get every help from the government.


I have a far bigger issue with the Irish long term unemployed then a Polish person who fell on hard times are a few years of paying tax.

Traumadoc

We pay PRSI so why should we be excluded, many Irish recieved the dole in the UK in the past.

aare

I take your point...but I am not sure how that is going to show a profit when the UK and other European countries start sending the Irish Citizens back???

Also, as the domicile laws have changed throughout europe this would leave many people (and their families) stranded with no home, no job and no access to welfare benefits ANYWHERE...sometimes after having lived here for decades...

jhegarty

aare wrote: »

I take your point...but I am not sure how that is going to show a profit when the UK and other European countries start sending the Irish Citizens back???

Also, as the domicile laws have changed throughout europe this would leave many people (and their families) stranded with no home, no job and no access to welfare benefits ANYWHERE...sometimes after having lived here for decades...

They can't send the Irish home. Not without leaving the EU.

marti8

aare wrote: »

I take your point...but I am not sure how that is going to show a profit when the UK and other European countries start sending the Irish Citizens back???

Also, as the domicile laws have changed throughout europe this would leave many people (and their families) stranded with no home, no job and no access to welfare benefits ANYWHERE...sometimes after having lived here for decades...

I am specifically talking about eastern European countries, not so -called "old Europe", why just eastern Europe? Because that is where the majority of non-nationals living in Ireland today are from. Why not the UK? Because Irish people in the UK can get the dole yet how many Irish people in Poland, Slovakia or anywhere else get their "version" of the dole, none I'd say. Yes, it is a selfish point of view in a way and I wish I didn't have to express it as I have nothing against east European people but these are extraordinary times we are living in, we are on the verge of a deprssion, forget recession (recession is a walk in the park compared to this and potentially what has yet to come)

CiaranC

marti8 wrote: »

how many Irish people in Poland, Slovakia or anywhere else get their "version" of the dole, none I'd say.

You'd say?

Maybe you should check.

Helix

if youve worked and contributed to the state via taxes you should be perfectly entitled to the dole, regardless of your nationality

if you havent, you shouldnt get a sniff, regardless of your nationality

marti8

CiaranC wrote: »

You'd say?

Maybe you should check.

Ok Ciaran, how many, you seem to know?

menoscemo

marti8 wrote: »

Each country, each State needs to look after its own citizens first. Simple as that.

These 'Eastern Europeans' have to work 2 years in Ireland before being entitled to social welfare payments. That is a lot more than a lot Irish Citizens claiming the dole. Therefore they are more entitled to it than many Irish citzens. Nationality should have nothing to do with it.

marti8 wrote: »

Now, today, in these economic times we have to say enough is enough. If there aren't enough jobs for Irish people then non-nationals need to return to their own countries. And I would say the exact same thing, although I wouldn't like it, if the roles were reversed.

Enough Jobs for Irsh People? There are plenty of minimum wage paying jobs taken up mostly by Non-nationals simply because the dole pays just as much as a 40hour p/w minimum wage job (more after rent and other allowances). So who is going to do these jobs when we send the non nationals home?

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

These 'Eastern Europeans' have to work 2 years in Ireland before being entitled to social welfare payments. That is a lot more than a lot Irish Citizens claiming the dole. Therefore they are more entitled to it than many Irish citzens. Nationality should have nothing to do with it.



Enough Jobs for Irsh People? There are plenty of minimum wage paying jobs taken up mostly by Non-nationals simply because the dole pays just as much as a 40hour p/w minimum wage job (more after rent and other allowances). So who is going to do these jobs when we send the non nationals home?

If there are jobs which can't be filled by Irish people, fine. I have no problem with that. I do have an issue with eastern Europeans having the right to be on the dole just as long as an Irish national. Each country has its first responsibility to its own citizens and their dependants.

You say there are plenty of low paying jobs, really? Maybe a year ago, not today. Times have changed, today you have bankers, accountants, architects etc applying for jobs in McDonalds. If there are any jobs available for them, why...because there are so many east Europeans working there already............

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

If there are jobs which can't be filled by Irish people, fine. I have no problem with that. I do have an issue with eastern Europeans having the right to be on the dole just as long as an Irish national. Each country has it's first responsibility to it's own citizens.

You say there are plenty of low paying jobs, really? Maybe a year ago, not today.

Every EU citizen is entitled to claim unemployment benefit from whichever EU state they happen to be in when they become become unemployed.

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

Every EU citizen is entitled to claim unemployment benefit from whichever EU state they happen to be in when they become become unemployed.

And that is the problem. The governmenet could have introduced a green card system for east Europeans but they didn't. Yet, when Bulgaria and Romania joined their citizens weren't allowed to work freely in other EU States........

It is an unequal system, a system which works against Ireland and costs us a lot of money. If an Irish person working in eastern Europe became unemployed they would most likey return to Ireland, if an eastern European (who has worked for more than 2 years in Ireland) becomes unemployed why would they return to their own country? They get much more money here, indefinetly.

Helix

ejmaztec wrote: »

Every EU citizen is entitled to claim unemployment benefit from whichever EU state they happen to be in when they become become unemployed.

which is grossly unfair unless a single europe wide unemployment benefit rate is introduced, otherwise theyll just keep flocking to silly old ireland where they give you far more than any of the other countries

menoscemo

marti8 wrote: »

If there are jobs which can't be filled by Irish people, fine. I have no problem with that. I do have an issue with eastern Europeans having the right to be on the dole just as long as an Irish national. Each country has its first responsibility to its own citizens and their dependants.

You say there are plenty of low paying jobs, really? Maybe a year ago, not today.

Jobs that can't be filled by Irish people? What do you mean? Ones that pay too low to get an Irish person like yourself off the dole to fill them? So you are happy to let non-nationals do these jobs but not, happy to gove them a penny if they lose their job after working years in this country...

You said in your initial post that you were not racist or xenophobic but..... this is always the queue for somone to prove the oposite and you have just done it.

Go to your local pub, shop, supermarket or fast food resturaunt and ask for a job, I am sure it would not be too difficult to find one. After all the manager of such an estblishment would be delighted to employ an Irish person to do such jobs, given the amount of customers compaining about being served by foreigners. You Probably wouldn't lower yourself to do such a job however as for 40 hours work you would get paid little more than you currently claim on welfare. And there-in lies the problem (not the foreigners doing the low paid jobs).

nesf

They worked here for 2 years paying PRSI. I really don't see any good reason for refusing them the dole after they've done that.

It's not like they can just hop on a plane over here and sign on the dole straight after leaving the airport or anything.

Allah Hu Akbar

How does it work for people outside the EU? Example Africa! There's loads down where I am none of them work yet they drive big fancy family cars so they can fit their 10 kids in. They even get their hair cut and keep the receipts and get the money back :eek:

menoscemo

ejmaztec wrote: »

Every EU citizen is entitled to claim unemployment benefit from whichever EU state they happen to be in when they become become unemployed.

This is untrue, since the accession states being accepted into the EU, All (No Irish and UK) EU citizens have to be working a minimum of 2 years in Ireland before being entitled to claim unemployment benefit.
In most other EU countries, citizens (both from that country and other EU states) must work a minimum amount of time and build up enough 'stamps' to claim unemployment benefit.
Ireland, in fact, discriminates between different EU citizens by giving it's own citizens benefits without question while making others work 2 years before being entitled to them.

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

Jobs that can't be filled by Iriah people? What do you mean? Ones that pay too low to get an Irish person like yourself off the dole to fill them? So you are happy to let non-nationals do these jobs but not, happy to gove them a penny if they lose their job after working years in this country...

You said in your initial post that you were not racist or xenophobic but..... this is always the queue for somone to prove the oposite and you have just done it.

Go to your local pub, shop, supermarket or fast food resturaunt and ask for a job, I am sure it would not be too difficult to find one. After all the manager of such an estblishment would be delighted to employ an Irish person to do such jobs, given the amount of customers compaining about being served by foreigners. You Probably wouldn't lower yourself to do such a job however as for 40 hours work you would get paid little more than you currently claim on welfare. And there-in lies the problem )not the foreigners doing the low paid jobs).

Wrong. These days there are not enough jobs even for Irish people. See: http://www.jobsblog.ie/Jobs/bankers-applying-for-jobs-in-mcdonalds/242

And no, I said earlier that if east Europeans have paid tax and then become unemployed they should recieve that tax paid back in kind by way of a social welfare payment and when they have recieved that ammount back that's it, no more. They then have to return to their own countries.

And you say I am racist/xenophobic, huh, I guess that's why I am married to a non-Irish national...sure that makes sense alright. But then when people don't wish to engage in adult debate it is always an easy way out to start labelling and insulting others. Immature.

ongarite

ejmaztec wrote: »

Every EU citizen is entitled to claim unemployment benefit from whichever EU state they happen to be in when they become become unemployed.

Thats is incorrect. The way marti8 and helix are trying to interpret it is that once you are unemployeed, any EU citizen can come to Ireland for example and claim unemployement benefit.

A EU citizen is not entitled to ANY assistance from social welfare unless they have built up PRSI stamps gained from working around 2 years in this country.

Mena

Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »

How does it work for people outside the EU? Example Africa! There's loads down where I am none of them work yet they drive big fancy family cars so they can fit their 10 kids in. They even get their hair cut and keep the receipts and get the money back :eek:

Jeez, do I really need to correct this type of utter balderdash and ignorance every day on these forums...

You sir, don't have a clue what you are talking about. Back under your rock.

ongarite

marti8 wrote: »

And you say I am racist/xenophobic, huh, I guess that's why I am married to a non-Irish national...sure that makes sense alright. But then when people don't wish to engage in adult debate it is always an easy way out to start labelling and insulting others. Immature.

That logic is fecked up. Are you then implying that you would send your non-national spouse back to their own country if they were unemployeed?

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

And that is the problem. The governmenet could have introduced a green card system for east Europeans but they didn't. Yet, when Bulgaria and Romania joined their citizens weren't allowed to work freely in other EU States........

It is an unequal system, a system which works against Ireland and costs us a lot of money. There is no incentive for an Irish person working in an eastern European country to claim their social welfare, there is a huge incentive for an eastern European in Ireland to claim Iirsh social welfare.

These people paid their dues and are entitled to benefits. Anything else is "unequal". Were all of the unemployed Irish to return from across the planet, what is being paid to "Eastern Europeans" wouldn't even be noticed.

For non-EU citizens however, it's a different story. Spain and the Czech Republic, for example, have offered to pay their non-EU unemployed to go home.

marti8

ongarite wrote: »

Thats is incorrect. The way marti8 and helix are trying to interpret it is that once you are unemployeed, any EU citizen can come to Ireland for example and claim unemployement benefit.

A EU citizen is not entitled to ANY assistance from social welfare unless they have built up PRSI stamps gained from working around 2 years in this country.

No I haven't misinterpreted it, that is what I have been saying. If an eastern European national has become unemployed after 2 years working here then they should get social welfare.....but uptothe ammount of tax which they have already paid. There is no sensible reason as to why east European national should be a burden on this State especially in these very tough times we are facing.

Mena

ejmaztec wrote: »

For non-EU citizens however, it's a different story. Spain and the Czech Republic, for example, have offered to pay their non-EU unemployed to go home.

We're perfectly entitled to claim welfare benefits as well, so long as we meet the habitual residence rule and have the two years worth of PRSI stamps to match. This being said, it has very serious repercussions if you want to apply for naturalisation at some point, in that you'll be flat declined.

ejmaztec

ongarite wrote: »

Thats is incorrect. The way marti8 and helix are trying to interpret it is that once you are unemployeed, any EU citizen can come to Ireland for example and claim unemployement benefit.

A EU citizen is not entitled to ANY assistance from social welfare unless they have built up PRSI stamps gained from working around 2 years in this country.

That's what I'm talking about - the dues have been paid - so they have as much right as any other EU citizen to claim benefits.

marti8

ongarite wrote: »

That logic is fecked up. Are you then implying that you would send your non-national spouse back to their own country if they were unemployeed?

Nope, you seem to have difficulty following this topic. I am not talking about the dependants of an Irish citizen be they non-national or not, I am talking about east Europeans who come here, work for over 2 years, become unemployed through, probably, no fault of their own and who then can claim Irish social welfare indefinetly. That is what I am talking about, "d'ya get me like?"

aare

ejmaztec wrote: »

For non-EU citizens however, it's a different story. Spain and the Czech Republic, for example, have offered to pay their non-EU unemployed to go home.

I think that is realistic...

Apart from genuine asylum seekers many of these people came here to work...and if there is no work they would probably be happier at home...

However, resettlement costs money, so a resettlement grant might be a deciding factor for many of them.

GuanYin

OK.

OP, your answer will depend on this thread living or dying.

Why should someone who has paid two years of social taxes not receive social benefits?

(I'm ignoring you've moved from the... "they shouldn't get dole" to "send them all home"....... for now...).

menoscemo

marti8 wrote: »

Wrong. These days there are not enough jobs even for Irish people. See: http://www.jobsblog.ie/Jobs/bankers-applying-for-jobs-in-mcdonalds/242

So becuase you read about one case of this on an internet blog quoted from the evening echo it must be true across the board. Hvae you tried yourself to go out and look for a low paid job?

marti8 wrote: »

And no, I said earlier that if east Europeans have paid tax and then become unemployed they should recieve that tax paid back in kind by way of a social welfare payment and when they have recieved that ammount back that's it, no more. They then have to return to their own countries.

And you say I am racist/xenophobic, huh, I guess that's why I am married to a non-Irish national...sure that makes sense alright. But then when people don't wish to engage in adult debate it is always an easy way out to start labelling and insulting others. Immature.

So by your own logic, your wife should be sent home and/or never allowwed to claim benefits above what she paid in tax.
I see your point about claiming up to the tax they have paid, but I really doubt it is even an issue- have you any statistics to prove that it is?. Most unemployed eastern europeans have gone home and are not entitled to claim anything here while being non-resident. You are jumping to the huge and unfounded conclusion that the value of taxes paid into the irish coffers by non-nationals is less than they have or will claim in social benefits. This is where your argument fails. Long-term unemployed Irish people who have never paid any tax and yet habitually get benfits are a much bigger problem and drain on the system.

And finally, whether you like it or not, to give any non-national living in Ireland (EU or not) less rights than an Irish person Smacks of Xenophopia regardless of your marital status.

mayotom

I agree that if non-nationals have made tax contributions then they should be entitled to some benifits, but limited as is they can get back part of what they have paid as they will have gotten back much of it through public services.

the shocking things for me is that there are so many people claiming social welfare and they are not even in the country, oh and for evidence Photo to be needed to collect welfare that is the biggest problem we face downright fraud, and most of the perpetrators are not European either, or even tax contributers for that matter. the are probably claiming benifits in a few countries and in my mind should be deported(and pay all costs them selves) or even better work for the state to pay back their debt. get this country cleaned up, and yes I mean chain gang senarios. would solve a lot of the financial worries that the country has

oh and before the Do gooders start, I would apply the same for Irish fraudsters too..

anybody want to nominate me for Europe???

to add to this I have lived in a few European countries and it is very difficult to access Social Welfare services.

many people just go to Ireland cause they know that its easy there,

Currently I live in The United Arab Emirates, where non nationals can only stay in the country for 30 days if they are unemployed,
there is no social welfare of any sort for non nationals, locals have a limited social welfare system, they are only allowed to be unemployed for a few months.
however the country does have a lot of problems too, like poor working conditions for the masses, and terrible living conditions for the majority of non westerners.

anyway I think I've gone on enough...

ejmaztec

It would certainly complicate the free movement of labour in the EU, were each member state to bill all of the other member states for the benefits handed over to the relevant intra-EU unemployed.

Presumably, statistics for this are buried in an EU bunker in Brussels.

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

So becuase you read about one case of this on an internet blog quoted from the evening echo it must be true across the board. Hvae you tried yourself to go out and look for a low paid job?



So by your own logic, your wife should be sent home and/or never allowwed to claim benefits above what she paid in tax.
I see your point about claiming up to the tax they have paid, but I really doubt it is even an issue- have you any statistics to prove that it is?. Most unemployed eastern europeans have gone home and are not entitled to claim anything here while being non-resident. You are jumping to the huge and unfounded conclusion that the value of taxes paid into the irish coffers by non-nationals is less than they have or will claim in social benefits. This is where your argument fails. Long-term unemployed Irish people who have never paid any tax and yet habitually get benfits are a much bigger problem and drain on the system.

And finally, whether you like it or not, to give any non-national living in Ireland (EU or not) less rights than an Irish person Smacks of Xenophopia regardless of your marital status.

It is not xenophobic to suggest regualtions and controls, it is realistic, especially these days. And no, again you misunderstand what I am saying. I am Irish, my wife is not but is, obviously, the dependant of an Irish citizen (me) I am not talking about Irish citizens or their dependants who I believe do have an entitle ment to a social welfare payment, I am talking about non-nationals who have worked for more than 2 years and who are now unemployed.....and their entitlement to indefinete social welfare. I think this is wrong, this is my opinion.

The first priority of the Irish State should be towards the welfare of Irish people and their dependants. Just as the first priority of the Polish State should be towards its citizens, and the Czech State and so on and so on.... Thats is not xenophobic, that is being 100% realistic.

Take Bulgarians and Romanians, they are EU citizens yet they cannot come here to Ireland or any other EU member State to work (not without permits) Is this xenophobic, no, this is realistic.....

GuanYin

Re-opened for OP to respond and continue.

marti8

GuanYin wrote: »

OK.

OP, your answer will depend on this thread living or dying.

Why should someone who has paid two years of social taxes not receive social benefits?

(I'm ignoring you've moved from the... "they shouldn't get dole" to "send them all home"....... for now...).

Ok, to reply: I have never said that east Europeans living in Ireland should not get social welfare payments. What I have said is that they should not be entitled to the very same social welfare benefits to which Irish nationals and their dependants are entitled to.

Yes, they have paid their taxes, this I fully accept that is why, in my opinion, they should be entitled to recieve back by way of social welfare the ammount of tax which they have contributed to the Irish State.

I don't see why east European nationals should be a burden to the State. We have an ever decreasing ammount of money.

The governemnt have cut in half the dole paid to the under 20's......I wonder, and this is simply a question, if folks had to choose between leaving dole payments for the under 20's untouched or introducing a scheme whereby east Europeans recieve back in social welfare only the taxes they have put in, which people would choose? Personally I'd go for the latter.

That is not xenophobic.

pcardin

Oh, I like these instigators of feud how they all start these anti-eastern european stories wit the words "I'm not xenophobic or racist but....."
Are you really not?

marti8

pcardin wrote: »

Oh, I like these instigators of feud how they all start these anti-eastern european stories wit the words "I'm not xenophobic or racist but....."
Are you really not?

Ok, if I was xenophobic or racist I would not have a non-Irish spouse then, would I? Check the definition in the dictionary if you want to.

It is perfecty reasonable to question current social welfare policy without falling into either of the categories you suggested.

menoscemo

marti8 wrote: »

I am Irish, my wife is not but is, obviously, the dependant of an Irish citizen (me) I am not talking about Irish citizens or their dependants who I believe do have an entitle ment to a social welfare payment, I am talking about non-nationals who have worked for more than 2 years and who are now unemployed.....and their entitlement to indefinete social welfare. I think this is wrong, this is my opinion.

So your non-national wife who has not worked or paid taxes is entitled to indefinate benefits becuase she is married to you...but any other non-national who has worked and paid taxes is not?
Wow. In other words you believe in what suits you best.

I Have just completely lost any respect I may have had for you or your argument.

xz

These foreign nationals actually get €30 a week more in unemployment benefit than their Irish counterparts, it is called "socialising allowance"

menoscemo

marti8 wrote: »

Ok, to reply: I have never said that east Europeans living in Ireland should not get social welfare payments. What I have said is that they should not be entitled to the very same social welfare benefits to which Irish nationals and their dependants are entitled to.

Yes, they have paid their taxes, this I fully accept that is why, in my opinion, they should be entitled to recieve back by way of social welfare the ammount of tax which they have contributed to the Irish State.

I don't see why east European nationals should be a burden to the State. We have an ever decreasing ammount of money.

The governemnt have cut in half the dole paid to the under 20's......I wonder, and this is simply a question, if folks had to choose between leaving dole payments for the under 20's untouched or introducing a scheme whereby east Europeans recieve back in social welfare only the taxes they have put in, which people would choose? Personally I'd go for the latter.

That is not xenophobic.

What nationality is your wife? Just beacuse she is not Irish does not mean you are not Xenophopic- You definately seem to have a prejudice against Eastern Europeans.
What is your problem with them? What about Spanish, french German or Britsh? Are they ok? Should they be allowed to claim the dole? If so what makes them diffferent?

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

So your non-national wife who has not worked or paid taxes is entitled to indefinate benefits becuase she is married to you...but any other non-national who has worked and paid taxes is not?
Wow. In other words you believe in what suits you best.

I Have just completely lost any respect I may have had for you or your argument.

Without going into too many details my spouse has paid taxes but that is irrelevant to the point which I am making one which you obviously can't understand. I have not said that non-national should not get social welfare, I have said that they should only get social welfare to the ammount of which they have contributed in tax. Irish nationals and their dependants (Irsh or not) doesn't come into it.

I believe in reality, and the reality is the country is running out of money, fast. Maybe you live on a differnet planet if you think otherwise. My point is why should non-nationals be burden on the State, simple as that. I am not talking about refugees or asylum seekers, I am talking about very specifically eastern European nationals who have worked for over 2 years in this state.

marti8

xz wrote: »

These foreign nationals actually get €30 a week more in unemployment benefit than their Irish counterparts, it is called "socialising allowance"

Wow, if that is true it is unbelievable. I hadn't heard about that. :eek:

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

What nationality is your wife? Just beacuse she is not Irish does not mean you are not Xenophopic- You definately seem to have a prejudice against Eastern Europeans.
What is your problem with them? What about Spanish, french German or Britsh? Are they ok? Should they be allowed to claim the dole? If so what makes them diffferent?

Lol, I have no intention of devulging personal details to you.

You ask why eastern Europeans? For a very simple reason. The simple fact that while it may suit a French/German/Dutch/Italian/Austrian/Swedish etc etc person to return home if made unemplyed an eastern European has no such incentive as the social welfare systems in their own states are very weak in comparison to "western" countries.

For the east European who has lost his or her job what incentive is there to return to their own country when the social welfare system in their home country is so underdeveloped?! It makes more sense for them, as they would see it, to remain here in Ireland on the dole, possibly indefinetly.....thereby allowing for a similar if not better standard of living even if they were in their home country working nevermind actually on the dole in their own countries.....

I recall when the "new" eastern states joined the EU, I was delighted, I thought it was great...but the more I think on it the more negative effects I see from that. We didn't need eastern Europe, eastern Europe needed us. And that is a plain, cold, hard fact. Yes, we needed workers from outside Ireland, even from outside the EU as it was pre-enlargement but these workers could have come here on tempoary green cards but our government didn't opt for that.

P_1

I have no problem with foreign nationals claiming social benefits provided they meet two requirements.
1- They have previously worked in the state.
2- They currently reside in the state.

In order to prevent any possible fraud all people claiming the dole must provide
1- Photographic ID
2- Proof of address (bill etc.)

Basically I'm suggesting that if a Polish national becomes unemployed and returns to Poland. he becomes Poland's problem, not Ireland's.

pcardin

pithater1 wrote: »

I have no problem with foreign nationals claiming social benefits provided they meet two requirements.
1- They have previously worked in the state.
2- They currently reside in the state.

In order to prevent any possible fraud all people claiming the dole must provide
1- Photographic ID
2- Proof of address (bill etc.)

Basically I'm suggesting that if a Polish national becomes unemployed and returns to Poland. he becomes Poland's problem, not Ireland's.

I agree.

pcardin

marti8 wrote: »

Wow, if that is true it is unbelievable. I hadn't heard about that. :eek:

That is not true! But soon we will hear even more fantastic stories!

marti8

pithater1 wrote: »

I have no problem with foreign nationals claiming social benefits provided they meet two requirements.
1- They have previously worked in the state.
2- They currently reside in the state.

In order to prevent any possible fraud all people claiming the dole must provide
1- Photographic ID
2- Proof of address (bill etc.)

Basically I'm suggesting that if a Polish national becomes unemployed and returns to Poland. he becomes Poland's problem, not Ireland's.

That might have been just about ok previously and personally I really don't think it was but not today, the State could go bankrupt, that IS a possibility. Won't probably happen but could, nonetheless we are looking at some very serious times ahead for Irelands finances. We have just seen the dole reduced by HALF for the under 20's....this would not have been needed if we had a system whereby eastern Europeans did not recieve dole payments over and above that amount which they had initially paid in taxes.

P_1

marti8 wrote: »

That might have been just about ok previously and personally I really don't think it was but not today, the State could go bankrupt, that IS a possibility. Won't probably happen but could, nonetheless we are looking at some very serious times ahead for Irelands finances. We have just seen the dole reduced by HALF for the under 20's....this would not have been needed if we had a system whereby eastern Europeans did not recieve dole payments over and above that amount which they had initially paid in taxes.

I'd imagine a good majority of those under 20's have contributed much less in taxes than the Eastern Europeans.

Also I notice your continued reference to Eastern Europeans. Does that mean that a German or French national would be entitled to unlimited dole in your view but a Polish or Latvian national would not?

I can see some validity on limiting the dole that citizens from countries outside the EU can claim, perhaps by linking it to their tax contributions but I'd imagine the powers that be in Brussels and Strassburg would take a dim view of what is essentially, discrimination against EU citizens.

marti8

pithater1 wrote: »

I'd imagine a good majority of those under 20's have contributed much less in taxes than the Eastern Europeans.

Also I notice your continued reference to Eastern Europeans. Does that mean that a German or French national would be entitled to unlimited dole in your view but a Polish or Latvian national would not?

I can see some validity on limiting the dole that citizens from countries outside the EU can claim, perhaps by linking it to their tax contributions but I'd imagine the powers that be in Brussels and Strassburg would take a dim view of what is essentially, discrimination against EU citizens.

You ask why eastern Europeans? For a very simple reason. The simple fact that while it may suit a French/German/Dutch/Italian/Austrian/Swedish etc etc person to return home if made unemplyed an eastern European has no such incentive as the social welfare systems in their own states are very weak in comparison to "western" countries.

For the east European who has lost his or her job what incentive is there to return to their own country when the social welfare system in their home country is so underdeveloped?! It makes more sense for them, as they would see it, to remain here in Ireland on the dole, possibly indefinetly.....thereby allowing for a similar if not better standard of living even if they were in their home country working nevermind actually on the dole in their own countries.....

I recall when the "new" eastern states joined the EU, I was delighted, I thought it was great...but the more I think on it the more negative effects I see from that. We didn't need eastern Europe, eastern Europe needed us. And that is a plain, cold, hard fact. Yes, we needed workers from outside Ireland, even from outside the EU as it was pre-enlargement but these workers could have come here on tempoary green cards but our government didn't opt for that.