Lets all just Leave!

Kippure

Every one keeps complaining on how tough the budget is, as if we didnt see it coming a mile off..

Theres so much skill in the people of ireland, that 99.9% wouldnt find it to difficult to find a job somewhere else in the world. Whether through immigration or contract work.

Theres a better quailty of life out there, but it aint here in ireland.

Look around, the world,s a huge place.

jimmycrackcorm

Great - where do you recommend that isn't suffering a recession?

Kippure

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Great - where do you recommend that isn't suffering a recession?

Canada for one has opportunitys for irish people, Sure the east coast Of canada is like been in ireland.

aare

Just heard from a friend in Canada who works with the equivalent of FAS...she says she has NEVER seen things so bad (and, like me, she is an "ould wan")...

But I really DO applaud your initiative, and positive attitude...

This really is one hell of a mess, and the only thing we know for sure is that sitting around, moaning, will not solve it.

murfie

already left my friend, already left. Its sad to say also that I don't have any plans on returning anytime soon.

Its pains me to say that as i thought i would come home to raise a family. More taxes does not improve an economy and will make people more inclined to not spend.

ionix5891

as i mentioned in another thread there are plenty of countries who would take irish to do TOEFL etc teaching English to locals

if you have a degree or better in science or engineering you really dont have much to worry about, tho bankers and finance people are getting what they deserve lately

Kippure

aare wrote: »

Just heard from a friend in Canada who works with the equivalent of FAS...she says she has NEVER seen things so bad (and, like me, she is an "ould wan")...

But I really DO applaud your initiative, and positive attitude...

This really is one hell of a mess, and the only thing we know for sure is that sitting around, moaning, will not solve it.

Alot of jobs in Canada depend on the price of a barrel of oil. Im working over in canada at the moment with an oil company. In canada at this time, alot of companys are suspending there foreigion tempoary worker programs for a 3 month period.

But they still will maintain a quota .

What im saying is Life is much better there for example. People with skills who dont agree with the budget leave this place, Over the next ten years people are going to struggle and meak out a poor quailty of life here.

Dont be a slave to ff fg or any other party.

In my veiw they can have this Island, ill come back on holidays once a year.

silvine

I'd leave but my gf has a good job. Also, it's global recession. Back to college I think.

Kippure

silvine wrote: »

I'd leave but my gf has a good job. Also, it's global recession. Back to college I think.

Make sure its in renewable energy.....


Theres nothing stopping you from going to work any where on this planet for a couple of weeks or months working at anything.

Remember life is not meant to be a struggle or worry, if it is do something positive about it.

Nothingbetter2d

why should we all have to leave? wouldnt it cost less to pack all the expensively overpaid politicians off to some 3rd world country instead?

then hire qualified people in their correct fields of expertise to run the various departments of this country

and hire others to police them with vigour to prevent corruption.

flowerific

Kippure wrote: »

Make sure its in renewable energy.....


Theres nothing stopping you from going to work any where on this planet for a couple of weeks or months working at anything.

Remember life is not meant to be a struggle or worry, if it is do something positive about it.

There is! It's called a work permit or visa. You can't just go to any country you like and look for work. Canada, USA, Autralia all have stricked work visa's and if you have already recived on ein the past you may not be elligable to get another

Kippure

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

why should we all have to leave? wouldnt it cost less to pack all the expensively overpaid politicians off to some 3rd world country instead?

then hire qualified people in their correct fields of expertise to run the various departments of this country

and hire others to police them with vigour to prevent corruption.

Because its an option, why struuggle when you can have a great life somewhere else. I have no loyalty to this island. Infact the more it goes ta hell the better, people still are in denial here. What will it take for the irish to wake up and revolt. Ill tell you..Nothing... people will just sit there and complain about it on a high stool.

But your idea about people qualified for the various cabinet postions is classic. Ireland does not need politicians, it needs "qualified people in their correct fields of expertise to run the various departments of this country"
and not politicians with "advisors".

Dexterm99

Kippure wrote: »

Canada for one has opportunitys for irish people, Sure the east coast Of canada is like been in ireland.

What's wrong with trying to do something so you don't have to leave? Are we rats leaving a sinking ship? Should we leave the poor feckers behind that will have to face this mess? Should our children not have a right to decent employment without having to leave the country? Should we just accept the mess that Ireland is in? No. If you want to do something, vote for someone besides the usual muppets.
What hope is there when you get leaflets in your door from your local Chinese restaurant with a picture of a smug FF politian endorsing it? Yes, I received one of these a few days ago with Charlie O'Connor on it.

This is not the 80's all over again. We will get out of it but the country needs to take a good honest look at itself. We have politian's who are more concerned with speed bumps and speed cameras than working on national interests. They deliver very little for what they are paid and cannot be bothered to sit in the Dail even on one of the busiest days of the year. When SF were giving there reaction to the budget yesterday, it looked like no one was left. Only Martin Manseragh who was fast asleep.

Vote these lazy gangsters out instead of leaving. It'll do more good in the long run.

seamus

There's nothing in Canada. The borders are closed to Irish immigrants till next year. What do you propose people do for the next 8 months?

Kippure

flowerific wrote: »

There is! It's called a work permit or visa. You can't just go to any country you like and look for work. Canada, USA, Autralia all have stricked work visa's and if you have already recived on ein the past you may not be elligable to get another

Thats what im saying, go get them, i did. And guess what? it works. Apply for Permanent residancey for as many countrys as possible. Dont put any barriers infront of you or any excusses. Smash the walls down and go for it.

Kippure

seamus wrote: »

There's nothing in Canada. The borders are closed to Irish immigrants till next year. What do you propose people do for the next 8 months?

Wrong. Because im going through the PR Program right now for skilled workers.

Kieo

'Cause it's a bittersweet symphony, this life
Try to make ends meet
You're a slave to money then you die


maybe we should hold a national strike and lose money for the economy, as the budget is making us pay for the problem, why shouldn't we cause problems. The people are the new government! Power to the people!! :rolleyes:

Kippure

Dexterm99 wrote: »

What's wrong with trying to do something so you don't have to leave? Are we rats leaving a sinking ship? Should we leave the poor feckers behind that will have to face this mess? Should our children not have a right to decent employment without having to leave the country? Should we just accept the mess that Ireland is in? No. If you want to do something, vote for someone besides the usual muppets.
What hope is there when you get leaflets in your door from your local Chinese restaurant with a picture of a smug FF politian endorsing it? Yes, I received one of these a few days ago with Charlie O'Connor on it.

This is not the 80's all over again. We will get out of it but the country needs to take a good honest look at itself. We have politian's who are more concerned with speed bumps and speed cameras than working on national interests. They deliver very little for what they are paid and cannot be bothered to sit in the Dail even on one of the busiest days of the year. When SF were giving there reaction to the budget yesterday, it looked like no one was left. Only Martin Manseragh who was fast asleep.

Vote these lazy gangsters out instead of leaving. It'll do more good in the long run.

Theres nothing wrong with staying, its a choice. But if thats that life you want, grand.

A change in goverment? for who?

Who would you vote for, An independant?

There just not interested in the People.

As you said there was nearly an empty house.

seamus

Kippure wrote: »

Wrong. Because im going through the PR Program right now for skilled workers.

That's funny because a Canadian ambassador was on the radio a few weeks back saying that there were no more temporary work Visas available in Canada for 2009.

[Edit: Aha, "PR" obviously means "Permanent Residency". Well that's a whole different kettle of fish. But either way if the temporary visas are going like hot cakes you can be sure that any job vacancies in Canada are no doubt under massive competition or soon will be.

Kippure

seamus wrote: »

That's funny because a Canadian ambassador was on the radio a few weeks back saying that there were no more temporary work Visas available in Canada for 2009.

[Edit: Aha, "PR" obviously means "Permanent Residency". Well that's a whole different kettle of fish. But either way if the temporary visas are going like hot cakes you can be sure that any job vacancies in Canada are no doubt under massive competition or soon will be.

http://www.leaderpost.com/business/Government+shortens+time+process+immigrants+paperwork/1436873/story.html

Check this article out

Soby

Wonder if theres any unpopulated caribbean islands about. We can call it Boards Island and all live there happy ever after

silvine

I'd love to leave, I'd go tomorrow if I could, but I have a house and a kid which I can barely pay for. This country might be doing down the tubes but there's lots of people who simply can't abandon ship saving a lotto win **crosses fingers**

ejmaztec

The government want people to leave and the people want them to leave. It's all a question of timing. If there are, as I understand, 70 million people with Irish roots spread across the planet, it proves that Ireland has never been able to look after its own people, no matter who was in power.

If something radical doesn't happen, this place will be worse off than Moldova when the world recession ends.

It must be time to wave goodbye to the dynastic hicks "running?" the country.

Dexterm99

Kippure wrote: »

Theres nothing wrong with staying, its a choice. But if thats that life you want, grand.

Yes it's a choice but if droves of people left we'd be worse off. I can't see that happening yet because every country is in a similar boat to ourselves. But once the global economy picks up, it will probably be the US which rebounds first. It could be a long time before Ireland does and that's when emigration is likely to happen.

Kippure wrote: »

A change in goverment? for who? Who would you vote for, An independant? There just not interested in the People.

Vote for change. It's the people who put them there in the first place.
It's clear that these gangsters don't care, it doesn't mean that can't change with fresh faces.
Why leave Ireland and let these *ricks do what they want?

lucylu

My brother has gone to Canada 3 weeks ago on a 1 year work Visa.
He still has not found any building work.

He said he met a solicitor who went out the same time as him and was looking for legal work for 6 weeks before she left and she has since joined a temp agency for secretarial work.

SkepticOne

Emigration, though difficult in the current climate, is probably the most patriotic course of action and here's why: During what many people at the time recognised as an unsustainable boom, the government used tax money from construction to expand public sector jobs in order to buy votes. Now during the slump, it can't be cut back proportionately.

Rather than tend to the underlying problem in the wider economy the government has chosen instead to raise taxes - the opposite of the stimulus measures in other countries - which will have the effect of further deepening the recession and which, in turn, will cause the government to further raise taxes. And so on, creating a downward spiral.

We are told that we need to make sacrifices for the good of the country. That is not true. We are making sacrifices for the good of the state apparatus (politicians and their pensions and perks., civil servants etc.) not the country itself.

The real problem is that we have come to identify this state apparatus with the country it has been created to serve. Cart before the horse. We need to get back to a situation where we make demands of the government and not the other way round.

A collapse needs to be brought about before this situation changes.

So I'm thinking that if you have skills, emigrate if you can and put them to some use. Keep them fresh so you can use them when you eventually come back rather than have them apostrophe here.

Kippure

lucylu wrote: »

My brother has gone to Canada 3 weeks ago on a 1 year work Visa.
He still has not found any building work.

He said he met a solicitor who went out the same time as him and was looking for legal work for 6 weeks before she left and she has since joined a temp agency for secretarial work.

Has your brother got a Trade? If so he should be checking out places like alberta and saskatchewan.

lucylu

Kippure wrote: »

Has your brother got a Trade? If so he should be checking out places like alberta and saskatchewan.

yes he does.. he is based in Toronto at the moment..
Thanks will let him know

flowerific

Kippure wrote: »

Thats what im saying, go get them, i did. And guess what? it works. Apply for Permanent residancey for as many countrys as possible. Dont put any barriers infront of you or any excusses. Smash the walls down and go for it.

I Applied for an Austrialian permanent residency and didn't qualify. You don't just get a visa for a counrty Just because you apply for one :rolleyes:

Dark_lord_ire

Soby wrote: »

Wonder if theres any unpopulated caribbean islands about. We can call it Boards Island and all live there happy ever after

cuba that island has freedom written all over it, well according to mr burns. Would the last person leaving turn out the lights please or else the greens will follow us

Kippure

flowerific wrote: »

I Applied for an Austrialian permanent residency and didn't qualify. You don't just get a visa for a counrty Just because you apply for one :rolleyes:

That goes with out saying...

Disease Ridden

I'd say the government would love to cull all the unemployed and their children, they just dont have the guts to say it. Seriously, that would fix things.

Kippure

Disease Ridden wrote: »

I'd say the government would love to cull all the unemployed and their children, they just dont have the guts to say it. Seriously, that would fix things.

Define Unemployed and there children.

A_SN

You guys, don't surrender already. We'd never do that in France. Well, mostly because all the other French speaking countries suck. I mean, Québec, Belgium, Switzerland and half of Africa? No thanks, but that's beyond the point.

In France, when we're pissed, we go on general strike! Train workers block trains by standing on the rails as to prevent people from going to work, truckers park their 38-ton trucks on the exit of oil refineries so the whole country runs out of gasoline, they block freeways and such, and if the government doesn't quickly agree to our demands then we riot in the main cities, which consists in burning every car parked in the streets and throwing rocks and molotov cocktails on the CRS!

Do read about this general strike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_strikes_in_France , it's mostly what I'm talking about, it was very memorable, I remember my parents congratulating themselves for their wisdom for having some full tanks of gasoline in the garage just in case. It's also relevant because it was about welfare cutbacks that we didn't like and such.

Disease Ridden

Kippure wrote: »

Define Unemployed and there children.

Any person without work at the present time and any children at present dependent upon them. This definition includes me so unfortunately I'll have to be killed aswel.

Kippure

Disease Ridden wrote: »

Any person without work at the present time and any children at present dependent upon them. This definition includes me so unfortunately I'll have to be killed aswel.

Dont be so hard on yourself...thank god this not 1940,s germany.

*shadow*

Wow..that budget was a surprise wasn't it..Not!!..Typical Irish Government, punish the people that never got us into this situation in the first place and bail out those that caused it..The more I think about it the more angry I get and the more I wanna just pack my bags and leave the country this instant..however I will stay to finish Uni.

The Irish really do need to stand up to the government though, It's just a joke what they are getting away with, Im not even going to say any more Im so angry. This budget is not going to do a single positive thing for the people of Ireland, now or in the future. [FONT=&quot]Thanks for nothing Fianna Fáil.
[/FONT]

A_SN

*shadow* wrote: »

Wow..that budget was a surprise wasn't it..Not!!..Typical Irish Government, punish the people that never got us into this situation in the first place and bail out those that caused it..The more I think about it the more angry I get and the more I wanna just pack my bags and leave the country this instant..however I will stay to finish Uni.

The Irish really do need to stand up to the government though, It's just a joke what they are getting away with, Im not even going to say any more Im so angry. This budget is not going to do a single positive thing for the people of Ireland, now or in the future. [FONT=&quot]Thanks for nothing Fianna Fáil.
[/FONT]

Exactly! Major unions should have strikes and demonstrations planned already, what's up with that?

ionix5891

A_SN wrote: »

Exactly! Major unions should have strikes and demonstrations planned already, what's up with that?

and which hole will the government pull money out of?

their expenses are twice the income this year

this is like a young person under 20 who is used to getting a dole of 200 euro a week finding that now they will only get half but their costs (rent, food, drink) are the same

A_SN

ionix5891 wrote: »

and which hole will the government pull money out of?

their expenses are twice the income this year

this is like a young person under 20 who is used to getting a dole of 200 euro a week finding that now they will only get half but their costs (rent, food, drink) are the same

Looks like you quoted the wrong comment there

hobochris

FFS.. I'M SICK OF PEOPLE GOING ON ABOUT WHO IS TO BLAME. The fact of the matter is no amount of pointing fingers will get us out of this mess.

Either do your part to help or GTFO!

once the country is back on its feet then you can do all the finger pointing etc that you want... that's when the reform can take place that already hasn't taken place.

ionix5891

A_SN wrote: »

Looks like you quoted the wrong comment there

speed reading my bad

anyways i don't like FF but one thing i noticed in these threads in this sub forum is complete lack of understanding of the deep hole this country is in, and the fact that all the other political parties cant come up with solutions either despite being brought in the loop with the budget makes on wonder whether this country will ever get out of this hole

A_SN

hobochris wrote: »

FFS.. I'M SICK OF PEOPLE GOING ON ABOUT WHO IS TO BLAME. The fact of the matter is no amount of pointing fingers will get us out of this mess.

Either do your part to help or GTFO!

once the country is back on its feet then you can do all the finger pointing etc that you want... that's when the reform can take place that already hasn't taken place.

Well while lynching the people we consider responsible wouldn't help, we definitely need to get them out of power. It's not just about what they've done, it's what they've done reveals about their interests and because you can infer from that that their interests are very poorly aligned with our interests, so you can't expect anything good coming out of their forthcoming decisions and actions. That's why something needs to be done right now.

Right now our part to help should involve pitchforks and torches, or their modern equivalents, witty banners and megaphones. Waiting until it's all over is pretty pointless, because we still can change what's gonna happen by reacting right now.

Did you guys know that we're having the worst deflation in Ireland since 1933?! Yeah, deflation, we haven't had since 1960, and that spells trouble. Unemployment is currently (as of March) at 11%, and increasing by about 0.7 points a month, and projected to reach 14-16% come December.

Is FF trying to solve that? No, because if they were then they'd try to give us the people more money to spend. Instead they're worried about their banker and developer buddies, while the vicious circle of deflation and unemployment feeds itself to dig us a nice hole.

hobochris

hobochris wrote: »

FFS.. I'M SICK OF PEOPLE GOING ON ABOUT WHO IS TO BLAME. The fact of the matter is no amount of pointing fingers will get us out of this mess.

Either do your part to help or GTFO!

once the country is back on its feet then you can do all the finger pointing etc that you want... that's when the reform can take place that already hasn't taken place.

you have it backwards - we need to reform things in order to get the nation back on its feet.

I see yer man Peter Bacon was a developer - this man has been put in charge of deciding the prices that us taxpayers will pay for the bad debts..........heis director of NAMA

So in your face I`ll point fingers

hobochris

Deleted User wrote: »

you have it backwards - we need to reform things in order to get the nation back on its feet.

I see yer man Bacon is a developer - this man has been put in charge of deciding the prices that us taxpayers will pay for the bad debts..........

So in your face I`ll point fingers

If you read my post again you'll see I Said "when the reform can take place that already hasn't taken place" I.e. yes some reform is needed now. But other reform can wait until the country is stable again.

what we need to do now is cut public spending, shake up the government.

Then later once the country is in a better position to do so(I'm gonna play devils advocate here), then you can have reforms going after the corrupt fat cats who need bring down a few pegs.. we all need a wake up call though as we are all (my self included) a little bit to blame for allowing this notion that the economy will keep on growing and growing to continue..

Even though you can only go after the corrupt ones as the others were just doing their capitalist duty by making profits from their chosen sectors.. after all we live in a capitalist society where making a profit is not a crime, despite what some begrudger's would instigate.

We were stupid enough to buy into this notion that the good times would never end.

so just remember when your point the finger of blame, there's 3 fingers pointing back at you.

and please if you will, enlighten me as to how all the finger pointing and moaning about who is to blame will get us out of this mess?

A_SN wrote: »

Well while lynching the people we consider responsible wouldn't help, we definitely need to get them out of power. It's not just about what they've done, it's what they've done reveals about their interests and because you can infer from that that their interests are very poorly aligned with our interests, so you can't expect anything good coming out of their forthcoming decisions and actions. That's why something needs to be done right now.

Right now our part to help should involve pitchforks and torches, or their modern equivalents, witty banners and megaphones. Waiting until it's all over is pretty pointless, because we still can change what's gonna happen by reacting right now.

Did you guys know that we're having the worst deflation in Ireland since 1933?! Yeah, deflation, we haven't had since 1960, and that spells trouble. Unemployment is currently (as of March) at 11%, and increasing by about 0.7 points a month, and projected to reach 14-16% come December.

Is FF trying to solve that? No, because if they were then they'd try to give us the people more money to spend. Instead they're worried about their banker and developer buddies, while the vicious circle of deflation and unemployment feeds itself to dig us a nice hole.

Your 100% write In what your saying.. we do need to act(not moan or blame people for the mess). not talk and play the blame game, at the moment the government aren't really steering us with any real conviction in any direction that can be seen to help this country.

McCruiskeen

why should we all have to leave? wouldnt it cost less to pack all the expensively overpaid politicians off to some 3rd world country instead?

then hire qualified people in their correct fields of expertise to run the various departments of this country

and hire others to police them with vigour to prevent corruption.

So what you're saying is that we should kick out our democratically elected government which WE the people voted for and install a dictatorship?

Exactly! Major unions should have strikes and demonstrations planned already, what's up with that?

That will solve everything and of course no other responsible government would have to do anything silly like cut services or raise taxes? They could just cut taxes and increase spending and then we can all go and live in magical fairyland with the fairy people.


But seriously. Alas, in most OECD countries you will still find that you would be paying more taxes on your wages that you are now in Ireland. The current problem now arises, because we got away with paying too little in taxes in recent years and we will now slowly move towards the average OECD tax wedge over the next few years.

Yep, the "evil and corrupt" builders and property deveopers paid tens of billions in taxes, in recent years and had us all covered. The problem was that the government increased spending in line with taxes that we realistically knew were never going to be there in a few years.

ALL POLITICAL PARTIES ENGAGED IN THIS CONSENSUS. WE, THE PEOPLE (VICTIMS??) WOULD NOT HAVE VOTED IN ANY PARTY WHO ACTED OTHERWISE.

A_SN

McCruiskeen wrote: »

But seriously. Alas, in most OECD countries you will still find that you would be paying more taxes on your wages that you are now in Ireland. The current problem now arises, because we got away with paying too little in taxes in recent years and we will now slowly move towards the average OECD tax wedge over the next few years.

Yep, the "evil and corrupt" builders and property deveopers paid tens of billions in taxes, in recent years and had us all covered.

Oh sorry, I guess we don't realise how good we're having it. Maybe we should stop complaining and be happy with our skyrocketing unemployment and our economy slowly shutting down.

Mostly that from listening to you it seems that no one could do anything better or differently than our lovely little government. Rejoice, for nothing could make our ****ty situation any better!

Alternatively we could show FF the door and give FG and Labour their chance. I mean these days even the labour party is more popular than FF.

hobochris

A_SN wrote: »

Oh sorry, I guess we don't realise how good we're having it. Maybe we should stop complaining and be happy with our skyrocketing unemployment and our economy slowly shutting down.

Mostly that from listening to you it seems that no one could do anything better or differently than our lovely little government. Rejoice, for nothing could make our ****ty situation any better!

Alternatively we could show FF the door and give FG and Labour their chance. I mean these days even the labour party is more popular than FF.

we do need change in government, but IMO fg or labour wouldn't be much of a difference, I think we need a new party.

And as for the unemployment its just one of the things that goes with a GLOBAL RECESSION. Its the economic model we choose to go with.unless we dramatically change our economic setup etc.. there's not a huge amount we or a different government can do.

our economy is deeply tied into other countries economies so we need them to also recover to get back on track.

ionix5891

A_SN wrote: »

Well while lynching the people we consider responsible wouldn't help, we definitely need to get them out of power. It's not just about what they've done, it's what they've done reveals about their interests and because you can infer from that that their interests are very poorly aligned with our interests, so you can't expect anything good coming out of their forthcoming decisions and actions. That's why something needs to be done right now.

Right now our part to help should involve pitchforks and torches, or their modern equivalents, witty banners and megaphones. Waiting until it's all over is pretty pointless, because we still can change what's gonna happen by reacting right now.

Did you guys know that we're having the worst deflation in Ireland since 1933?! Yeah, deflation, we haven't had since 1960, and that spells trouble. Unemployment is currently (as of March) at 11%, and increasing by about 0.7 points a month, and projected to reach 14-16% come December.

Is FF trying to solve that? No, because if they were then they'd try to give us the people more money to spend. Instead they're worried about their banker and developer buddies, while the vicious circle of deflation and unemployment feeds itself to dig us a nice hole.

since when is deflation a bad thing? its only bad for people with debts as they cant inflate their way out of it

all the better for people like me who saved up for a rainy day

and the main cause of the deflation is plummeting asset prices for housing which as everyone here knows is still wildly overvalued based on average prices for housing thruout history in all countries being 3-4x times ones salary

ionix5891

A_SN wrote: »

Oh sorry, I guess we don't realise how good we're having it. Maybe we should stop complaining and be happy with our skyrocketing unemployment and our economy slowly shutting down.

Mostly that from listening to you it seems that no one could do anything better or differently than our lovely little government. Rejoice, for nothing could make our ****ty situation any better!

Alternatively we could show FF the door and give FG and Labour their chance. I mean these days even the labour party is more popular than FF.

25% of GDP was due to construction

that is a crazy % and was well above the EU average

the construction bubble now popped, of course it would lead to unemployment

neither the government nor the people tried to stop this madness only a few years ago, we all are responsible for this mess by putting a blind eye on things and not pocking the government to do the right thing, too many people in Ireland where profiting wildly from the boom and taught the fun will never end in turn reelecting FF

so seriously lets put the blame squarely where it lies US THE PEOPLE

McCruiskeen

Whoops, double post