The major probelms in believing in religion

Dr. Loon

PDN wrote: »

Hold on there. I don't appreciate being called a liar. I can't answer every question and point raised in every post. As it is I'm spending too much time on this board.

I'm going to give you one opportunity to apologise.

Wow, you seem quite angry with the poster? What's your threat? A banning? Why don't you just forgive him?


Thank you Bill Hicks.

Fanny Cradock

Stay out of it, please.

JimiTime

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm sorry, but simply saying that you feel something is not acceptable. It's a cop out. If you make a claim, you back it up or it's defamation.

Careful FC, he may use his superior logic and reason on us;)

Liber8or

Jakkass wrote: »

Ah come on! I thought you guys were meant to be the champions of logic!

Do you not realise that the facts are going against what you are saying? Christianity is still spreading rapidly, albeit not in Europe.

PDN can give you accounts of how it's spread in China, and there are notable examples of the spread of Christianity in India, Korea, and in the Middle East even (albeit on a covert level).

Here is logic.

The countries you have listed as growing in popularity for Christianity all have one thing in common; they are not Western World countries.

They are countries suffering from poverty and need something to give them a reason for their suffering; therefore religion. Impressionable nations susceptable to propaganda, be it political or religious. Comes back to the ideology of humans feeling they need to belong to something, some circle/group/society that makes them feel special, or more important than the next person. Religion preys on this weakness, always has, and through its masses subjects the minority to unfounded criticism and bullying, e.g Science as it developed over the ages.

And why? Fear. They fear losing control of people and use fear itself to manipulate the minds of those weakened by their environment/surrounding. Science does not tell people that they will "burn eternally in hell" if people dont believe in gravity. However, religion tells people they will burn in hell for using a condom.

Fear.. all about fear. Scaring uneducated minds into a stupor of anxiety only given respite through praying and listening to the word of God. Stop telling people they will burn in hell and see how many will come to your masses.

Religion is dying in the Western World because of education and science. Hence my point is valid; in a world led by science and surrounded by it, religion has no stand.

In conclusion: These arguments are fought in vain. Science has already won. Religion must always try and keep up but, it can not. Simply because, it offers promises, where as Science offers answers. PDN and the rest of the Jesus followers, will only attack our grammar or indiscrepancies to accuracy about the number of church-goers or whatever the fact in question is. They can not offer anything but "Faith".
Well done to the original poster, Stevejazzx, for invoking a well thought out discussion, but it will inevitably fall on it's face due to the wild card of "Faith" being allowed to provide evidence.

Overblood

I'm sorry, but simply saying that you feel something is not acceptable. It's a cop out. If you make a claim, you back it up

Back up your claim that there is a god so. Do you feel him? That's not good enough.

Listen, I was thinking out loud. If you want to delete the offending post, go ahead. But I will still be of that opinion, certainly with regards to one poster here.

Liber8or

Húrin wrote: »

Education is not a window on objective truth. It is just information, not a magic tool that opens the mind or causes independent thinking.

That is the best thing I have read in this debate.

Education does not cause people to question things? Education creates ignorance? So, when you read a book or watch a film, you have no urge to go out and discover more about what that said book or film had to say?

Does not surprise me that you would say such a ridiculous statement, afterall Religion encourages ignorance. Makes it easier for the masses to conform and obey. One teacher, one crowd, "God forbid" people look for alternative methods for learning. Because, we all know that the man in the collar is the best and only educator we need, right?

Seriously, if you are going to question the logic and importance of education, then you really have no place on this forum. You would not even be able to write your religious propaganda right now, if it wasn't for education, because the last time I checked the Sunday Mass doesn't require grammar books to be brought and poems by Seamus Heaney.

I suggest you "Pull a Rome" and retract your statement or change it because of how ridiculous it sounds, similar to that of the Church acknowledging the Old Testament as more of a book of moral stories to educate people, than the belief of actual historic accounts.

PDN

Liber8or wrote: »

That is the best thing I have read in this debate.

Education does not cause people to question things? Education creates ignorance? So, when you read a book or watch a film, you have no urge to go out and discover more about what that said book or film had to say?

Does not surprise me that you would say such a ridiculous statement, afterall Religion encourages ignorance. Makes it easier for the masses to conform and obey. One teacher, one crowd, "God forbid" people look for alternative methods for learning. Because, we all know that the man in the collar is the best and only educator we need, right?

Seriously, if you are going to question the logic and importance of education, then you really have no place on this forum. You would not even be able to write your religious propaganda right now, if it wasn't for religion, because the last time I checked the Sunday Mass doesn't require grammar books to be brought and poems by Seamus Heaney.

I suggest you "Pull a Rome" and retract your statement or change it because of how ridiculous it sounds, similar to that of the Church acknowledging the Old Testament as more of a book of moral stories to educate people, than the belief of actual historic accounts.

Hurin didn't question the logic and importance of education. Please try to hear what other posters are actually saying before you respond to them.

I would also suggest you read some history and see how historically the Christian Church has been the primary force for promoting education in the western world.

philologos

Liber8or, South Korea isn't a country in poverty, so that isn't in common.

PDN

Overblood wrote: »

Back up your claim that there is a god so. Do you feel him? That's not good enough.

Listen, I was thinking out loud. If you want to delete the offending post, go ahead. But I will still be of that opinion, certainly with regards to one poster here.

I would think it better to leave the post up there so we can all see the kind of prejudice we're dealing with.

I don't think any true Christian would ever want to see force being used to enforce any religious (or anti-religious) ideology or position. I would hope that the same would apply to all posters that visit this forum.

Liber8or

PDN wrote: »

Hurin didn't question the logic and importance of education. Please try to hear what other posters are actually saying before you respond to them.

I would also suggest you read some history and see how historically the Christian Church has been the primary force for promoting education in the western world.

Yes, Education taught through the premise of religion. Religious fables told to vulnerable children.
Why don't Priests/Nuns/Missionaries take off their religious clothing, disregard their religious teachings to spread the word of "God" and just teach students English/Maths without any religious connotation?

They can't, why? Because its not financially viable. They need money from these children (soon to be adult worshippers) who can contribute to the cause.

Jakass: Korea, may not be an entirely Developing Country, but it lies on the border with another country that has nearly 1 million soldiers on it's borders. That is fear, fear which can be manipulated and twisted to look to "God" for salvation.

PDN

Jakkass wrote: »

Liber8or, South Korea isn't a country in poverty, so that isn't in common.

Indeed. Furthermore, much of the explosive church growth in China is occurring among young intellectuals. On my last visit to Shanghai I preached in a meeting that was held in a physicist's apartment. The apartment was beautifully furnished and I was staggered to learn that the rent he pays each month exceeds my total monthly income. Anyway, we had a great meeting and at the close of my preaching seven young men and women, all of them raised as atheists and educated to postgraduate level, received Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. My interpreter brought me down a peg or two by saying, "It wasn't your preaching. This happens every time we hold meetings, and it's being reduplicated all over Shanghai.

Overblood

Liber8or wrote: »

Here is logic.

The countries you have listed as growing in popularity for Christianity all have one thing in common; they are not Western World countries.

They are countries suffering from poverty and need something to give them a reason for their suffering; therefore religion. Impressionable nations susceptable to propaganda, be it political or religious. Comes back to the ideology of humans feeling they need to belong to something, some circle/group/society that makes them feel special, or more important than the next person. Religion preys on this weakness, always has, and through its masses subjects the minority to unfounded criticism and bullying, e.g Science as it developed over the ages.

And why? Fear. They fear losing control of people and use fear itself to manipulate the minds of those weakened by their environment/surrounding. Science does not tell people that they will "burn eternally in hell" if people dont believe in gravity. However, religion tells people they will burn in hell for using a condom.

Fear.. all about fear. Scaring uneducated minds into a stupor of anxiety only given respite through praying and listening to the word of God. Stop telling people they will burn in hell and see how many will come to your masses.

Religion is dying in the Western World because of education and science. Hence my point is valid; in a world led by science and surrounded by it, religion has no stand.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say, you managed to flesh it out more, thank you! The fact that Christianity is growing in popularity in the third world means diddley squat really. Desperate, poverty stricken, uneducated people will cling to anything that gives hope. I could probably make them believe FSM if I brushed up on my sales tactics.

Look at american evangelicans asking for $2000 cheques so people can become richer, and "save" themselves! How can giving $2,000 dollars to Peter Popoff make you richer? It can't, but he's very good at preying on the weak and desperate, who are in turn very susceptible to nonsense like this.

Fanny Cradock

Overblood wrote: »

Back up your claim that there is a god so. Do you feel him? That's not good enough.

Listen, I was thinking out loud. If you want to delete the offending post, go ahead. But I will still be of that opinion, certainly with regards to one poster here.

No I don't want to delete the post. I want you to back it up or withdraw your claim.

I've never suggested that my belief in God was based purely on a feeling, and your attempts to shift this argument onto other ground is transparent.

Overblood

If I back it up I'll be banned.

Fanny Cradock

Nonsense. If you can back up your claims I'm not going to ban you. The fact remains that you have made an accusation that is quite scurrilous if there is no supporting evidence. If you can provide the evidence then fine.

Now stop dancing around the forum and back up your claim that "I get the feeling that a few christians around here have happy dreams about those horrible times" or withdraw it. I am not in the mood for debating this any further.

Overblood

Give me time to gather the evidence which has lead me to believe "that a few christians around here have happy dreams about those horrible times" or maybe, just maybe even wish that sort of carry on was still happening today!

philologos

Liber8or wrote: »

Jakass: Korea, may not be an entirely Developing Country, but it lies on the border with another country that has nearly 1 million soldiers on it's borders. That is fear, fear which can be manipulated and twisted to look to "God" for salvation.

South Korea has an advanced military as far as I know and a rather large US troop presence. So I don't see how it is a military threat that is causing people to seek God.

Fanny Cradock

Overblood wrote: »

Give me time to gather the evidence which has lead me to believe "that a few christians around here have happy dreams about those horrible times" or maybe, just maybe even wish that sort of carry on was still happening today!

Grand, you can start another thread on it. Though, bar one thread, I certainly can't recall any discussions about dreams here.

Overblood

Remember daydreams count too.

prinz

Liber8or wrote: »

Here is logic.

The countries you have listed as growing in popularity for Christianity all have one thing in common; they are not Western World countries.

Hmmm I spend a good deal of time in Germany, and I can attest to the fact that Christianity is indeed growing in popularity there. I've heard similar from friends in France, and Belgium.

The problem is that you look at Ireland and try to expand that to cover other Western World countries. When actually there is no 'western world' standard culture or society.

Socially and economically Ireland is lagging behind our European neighbours. Whereas religiosity declined on continental Europe from the postwar years to the 1990's, it is once again on the increase. I see a similar reversal down the line for the U.K. and Republic of Ireland.

PDN

Overblood wrote: »

Give me time to gather the evidence which has lead me to believe "that a few christians around here have happy dreams about those horrible times" or maybe, just maybe even wish that sort of carry on was still happening today!

So you're gathering information to back your claim that a few Christians round here have happy dreams about "the massacres they caused to educated scientists such as Galileo etc"? That should be interesting.

While you're at it, since Liber8or didn't seem to want to answer my question, maybe you could let us know how Galileo was massacred?

Liber8or

Jakkass wrote: »

South Korea has an advanced military as far as I know and a rather large US troop presence. So I don't see how it is a military threat that is causing people to seek God.

It does not matter who has the bigger army and if the South has U.S military support, it is about tension.

There is a tug of war situation between North and South, its not about the presence of defense, but the necessity for it. The atmosphere of possible war creates fear.

Fear, uncertainty, doubt leads people to question why they are feeling in such a way. These questions will make them vulnerable to those who apparently offer answers. i.e people invoking religious ideas.

Another poster referred to the spread of Christianity in Germany/France etc, I apologise for forgetting the name of the poster. I would like to see examples and figures of church attendence numbers but if what you say is true, then lets examine as to why? (By the way I am highly dubious of such a claim, but I will entertain the thesis).

Perhaps it has to do with the current economic crisis (fear). The wars across the globe and threat of terrorism (fear).

Ultimately it is down to polarisation, which can be seen in everything mankind does. When someone is confused, disheartened, lacking clarity they cling to a pole. Poles are thusly Science (Education/Intelligence) vs Religion (Emotion/Interpretation). At the present time people are confused by these numbers, talks of recession, so many deaths from terrorist attacks etc. They do not understand so turn from one pole to another, like a pendulum. However, this pendulum predominantly resides on the pole of Science, because in most cases it offers more answers than ambiguity.

This can be seen with Third World Countries. An uneducated sick woman who is told to pray to God for salvation and health will do so, because she has not been offered the alternative; seek medicine.

I would imagine this stems from the original understanding of self-survival from an earlier rendition of the human species.

In conclusion, church numbers will probably rise a little (in theory) during arduous times, however it will be temporary. Simply because we have less difficult times than good ones. When we have the time to understand and analyse a predicament we apply logic and science to resolving it, however when under pressure people will swing to religion and beliefs implanted in their heads from propaganda.

At this point, I am sure someone will jump in and say; "Thats how religion will survive and will continue", well unfortunately that is not true. The 1980's had a huge economic crisis in this country and if someone would kindly pull up the numbers on church attendences back then and compare them to now, we would see a huge decline in the difference. Which in turn proves human nature, we learn from our mistakes. "God" and religion didn't pull Ireland out of recession, hard work, education and strong labour did. People began to realise that and continue to do so today...

Liber8or

PDN wrote: »

While you're at it, since Liber8or didn't seem to want to answer my question, maybe you could let us know how Galileo was massacred?

"On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary"

Your leader apologised for the house arrest, the banning of his ideas, and declaring him a heretic. So in essense, his reputation and persona was massacred by an ignorant organisation.

JimiTime

Liber8or wrote: »

"On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary"

Your leader apologised for the house arrest, the banning of his ideas, and declaring him a heretic. So in essense, his reputation and persona was massacred by an ignorant organisation.

LOL LOL LOL LOL ROFL ROFL. Thats some comback. Please tell me it was tongue in cheek? i see no smileys to indicate so, but I'll give u the benefit of the doubt. Oh mercy, Goerbals would be so proud. Classic.

Just quoting your original accusation below.

liber8or wrote:

considering the massacres they caused to educated scientists such as Galileo etc.

The Mad Hatter

What is it with all the n00bs on here thinking that all christians are catholic? There are like two regular catholic posters.

PDN

Liber8or wrote: »

"On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary"

Your leader apologised for the house arrest, the banning of his ideas, and declaring him a heretic. So in essense, his reputation and persona was massacred by an ignorant organisation.

Congratulations on the astounding elasticity of your use of language.

Please explain to me how Pope John Paul II is my leader?

Liber8or

JimiTime wrote: »

LOL LOL LOL LOL ROFL ROFL. Thats some comback. Please tell me it was tongue in cheek? i see no smileys to indicate so, but I'll give u the benefit of the doubt. Oh mercy, Goerbals would be so proud. Classic.

Firstly, I thought textspeak was not allowed on the forums?
Secondly, what has Goerbals got to do with this? Are you saying I am affiliated with Nazis? Might wanna check the forum charter about that...

Thirdly, The Pope is the leader of Catholics, and is "God"s representative on earth, who happens to believe in the works of his son Jesus Christ. This is a forum for Christians, who also believe in the good works of Jesus Christ. So, whether you like it or not, any organisation that wishes to spread the word of Jesus are connected in some way. Besides, I am sure the works of Galileo contradict your beliefs as much as Catholicism, so I am, therefore, certain you are not too bothered by what the Pope did either. Which in turn, makes you an advocate of his persecution.

Finally, if you are going to hide behind a shroud of ignorance "lol, rofl lol" than actually refute my argument, kindly fob off and play WoW, kk?

PDN

Liber8or wrote: »

Thirdly, The Pope is the leader of Catholics, and is "God"s representative on earth, who happens to believe in the works of his son Jesus Christ. This is a forum for Christians, who also believe in the good works of Jesus Christ. So, whether you like it or not, any organisation that wishes to spread the word of Jesus are connected in some way. Besides, I am sure the works of Galileo contradict your beliefs as much as Catholicism, so I am, therefore, certain you are not too bothered by what the Pope did either. Which in turn, makes you an advocate of his persecution.

You're not serious are you? This is some kind of a wind up?

Liber8or

I am also noticing that the Christians have diverted the argument to tackling the finer points of an Atheist's idea. Perhaps they should attempt to answer the questions the OP asked, without using "Faith" by the way in an attempt to justify your beliefs.

As I said in an earlier post, all Christians will do is throw their wild card on the table and attack indiscrepancies in arguments rather than deal with the issue. Yet again, simply using ambiguity and endless strings of possibilities doesn't cut it.

Hence, why these arguments are pointless and religion (faith) will never survive science (proof).

I am off to enjoy life for what it is, not live my life in fear while waiting to be judged on whether I will enter the "Heaven Festival" or not.

PDN

Liber8or wrote: »

As I said in an earlier post, all Christians will do is throw their wild card on the table and attack indiscrepancies in arguments rather than deal with the issue. Yet again, simply using ambiguity and endless strings of possibilities doesn't cut it.

Maybe it would help if you didn't offer arguments that were full of discrepancies? Just an idea.

I am off to enjoy life for what it is, not live my life in fear while waiting to be judged on whether I will enter the "Heaven Festival" or not.

Again, just an idea, but maybe you should try to find out what Christians actually do believe.

The Pope is not, and never has been, my leader. Galileo's scientific ideas conflict with none of my beliefs (although I would strongly disagree with his devout Catholicism). I thoroughly enjoy life. I don't live in fear, and I'm not waiting to be judged since my sins were already judged at Calvary.