Whats involved in UPC offering HD channels.

10000maniacs

What are the technical issues involved in UPC offering high definition to its customers.
I know that MPEG2 is not good enough. I know that the current boxes are not up to scratch and will have to be changed. Nagra 3 is suitable for HD.
What else?

paulm17781

Nagra 3 is irrelevant, it is just encryption.

They need high bandwidth which should be available on most of the network now. They also need newer boxes and HD content. AFAIK, that's it.

10000maniacs

I'm seriously considering jumping ship and getting Sky+HD. UPC are 3 years behind current technology and there still doesn't seem to be even a whisper of it happening.
The HD versions of terrestrial/free channels will start to appear on Sky in the near future and by next year there will be a huge amount of HD channels available.

paulm17781

Indeed, I've lost all faith in UPC as a television provider. I think they're broadband is great but they're so far behind Sky and seemingly making no effort to keep up.

There still relatively new on the scene.

and before they can do anything they have to upgrade alot, maybe most of the network infrastructure.

Which they are still doing, the last week they have dug up most all my road and putting down more cabling.

so if there putting that sort of money into it you can only hope they will make the most of it.

paulm17781

cisk wrote: »

so if there putting that sort of money into it you can only hope they will make the most of it.

But when? They've give no expected dates of new services, they claim there are new channels coming, so far we've gotten BuzzTV (:rolleyes:), any time they've said new features are coming they've been incredibly late or not happened. If you're bothered going through the history of this board, I had such faith and excitement about UPC. I've just given up now though.

Im quite aware of the history, they took over a joke of a company are pumping lots of money into the network.

Are putting an end to Dodgy boxes, something Virgin media in the UK havent even managed.

Provide excellent High speed BB which is improving all the time. So i dont think they are doing that bad of a job. Its not as easy to impliment HD over cable as it is via Sat.

paulm17781

cisk wrote: »

Im quite aware of the history, they took over a joke of a company are pumping lots of money into the network.

Are putting an end to Dodgy boxes, something Virgin media in the UK havent even managed.

Provide excellent High speed BB which is improving all the time. So i dont think they are doing that bad of a job. Its not as easy to impliment HD over cable as it is via Sat.

I like their broadband, it's the only thing that's really changed since NTL. Yes, they're pumping money into the network, a very welcome gesture but they've done little on the TV front. From what I've seen, none of UPCs operations are up to Sky's standard and their latest dual record / series link update just proves that Sky are far ahead of the game all round. When UPC do something progressive with TV I will happily eat my words but until then, they are an expensive, crap Sky.

Hopefully when they have finished Securing with N3 they will focus on the quality and features such as HD and Dual recording.


Imo there was no point in introducing HD channels untill the network is secure, or else HD dodgy boxes would be everywere.

Sky has always been secure, now UPC nearly is so i hope they prove themselves now.

10000maniacs

cisk wrote: »

Its not as easy to impliment HD over cable as it is via Sat.

They will be writing that on their tombstone.:D

Freddie59

cisk wrote: »

Its not as easy to impliment HD over cable as it is via Sat.

Reason being?

Erm,

The same sats that beam out SD can churn out HD with not much more development.


A cable network would need to be able to cope with the high band with been used, being a bandwidth system.


It dosnt matter how many dishes are getting a beam of HD, with cable it does matter how many people are watching HD and sucking up bandwith.

paulm17781

Cable is a broadcast system, satellite is too IIRC. It takes bandwidth to do a HD broadcast but the amount of people watching doesn't effect it.

Thats what i was getting at, dont know the in depths of it.

Im sure watty knows the technical terms behind it.

paulm17781

cisk wrote: »

Thats what i was getting at, dont know the in depths of it.

Im sure watty knows the technical terms behind it.

I'm fairly certain there's no more complexity to it, once they have the content / equipment it can be broadcast just as easily as one satellite.

BTW, I'm not trying to argue, I agree with your point about N3 and UPC. I'm just curious if that's true. TBH, I think you're mistaken.

youcrazyjesus!

Why is anybody even concerned. It's UPC/NTL. Even if they announce it it will take at least 3 to 4 years before we see it. I'm still waiting on series link and dual channel recording on their poxy Digital+ service. Months later.

watty

It's no harder at all to HD on Cable than on satellite.

In both cases the MPEG4 HD is about 2.5 times the MPEG2 SD TV, or x5 MPEG4 SD (not much used yet).

New headend and new receiver boxes in both cases.

Content
Headend
Setboxes
Customer Demand.

paulm17781

Thanks Watty, that's what I'd thought.

watty wrote: »

New headend and new receiver boxes in both cases.

Would this be cheaper for Sky to roll out seeing as they are satellite they wouldn't need as much equipment?

Rosser

Can I ask a stupid question, what exactly is the 'headend' is it a piece of equipment or some type of cable?

paulm17781

Rosser wrote: »

Can I ask a stupid question, what exactly is the 'headend' is it a piece of equipment or some type of cable?

My understanding is that it is similar to a telephone exchange, only for cable TV equipment. Alll "their kit" would be in the headend and that is what our TV, Broadband, telephone all connect to.

DingDong

The HD DVR is being put through its paces at the moment, and aiming for a launch date around June(Yes 2009 ).

Secure and Update

Irishdudedave

DingDong wrote: »

The HD DVR is being put through its paces at the moment, and aiming for a launch date around June(Yes 2009 ).

With UPC the two most important words there are AIMING and AROUND ... They just love a vague reply to any question.

Until the HD box is installed and Im watching HD channels I wont believe a word they have to say about it.

Rosser

DingDong wrote: »

The HD DVR is being put through its paces at the moment, and aiming for a launch date around June(Yes 2009 ).

Will that be with or without series link?

icdg

paulm17781 wrote: »

My understanding is that it is similar to a telephone exchange, only for cable TV equipment. Alll "their kit" would be in the headend and that is what our TV, Broadband, telephone all connect to.

Essentially yes. It consists of equipment to pick up the channels that are being provided as part of the service, re-encode them and "broadcast" them on the cable network. Back in the analogue days it would literaly have consisted of satellite dishes and arials and banks of STBs plugged into the cable system. These days its a lot more complicated, but this is the basic concept.

Cupart

Had my Thomson DVR installed two weeks ago and I asked the Tech about HD. He laughed and said "Earliest at the end of the year, but we were told the same a year ago". He told me not to get too excited too soon hehehe...

techdiver

DingDong wrote: »

The HD DVR is being put through its paces at the moment, and aiming for a launch date around June(Yes 2009 ).

This is exactly the same thing I heard in 2006, 2007 and 2008. So I can add 2009 to the list of years that they were "testing" their HD box and planning a summer roll out of the service.

I'd respect UPC more if they came out and said - "We have no interest or intention of rolling out HD to our customers". That would be better than spinning the same crap year in year out about HD.

paulm17781

techdiver wrote: »

I'd respect UPC more if they came out and said - "We have no interest or intention of rolling out HD to our customers". That would be better than spinning the same crap year in year out about HD.

I'd even prefer to hear 3 years time or something. The 6 months time thing has been going on for years now. That said, DingDong's information is normally reliable.

Nelbert

I know it doesn't mean much but a close friend of mine is contracted by UPC the odd time and does subbie work for them, knows a couple of UPC guys and I asked him to ask cause Id be very interested in getting it once it's available and they told him within the next few weeks, take from it what you will.
Flame on!

Cupart

Nelbert wrote: »

I know it doesn't mean much but a close friend of mine is contracted by UPC the odd time and does subbie work for them, knows a couple of UPC guys and I asked him to ask cause Id be very interested in getting it once it's available and they told him within the next few weeks, take from it what you will.
Flame on!

Wish it could be believed, but his is also what's known as hearsay.

Haven't seen any HD streams being tested on NTL's net so far so I highly doubt it will be availble within the next few weeks for testing even. More likely 6-8 months at the earliest...

Think of it. There are many areas where you can't even get BB so how on earth would you fit in a couple of HD streams? It looks like the net is full on its capacity as it is and needs physical upgrading. Maybe out in the sticks where new towns are being built but is it worth UPC to launch HD in such areas?

paulm17781

Cupart wrote: »

Think of it. There are many areas where you can't even get BB so how on earth would you fit in a couple of HD streams? It looks like the net is full on its capacity as it is and needs physical upgrading. Maybe out in the sticks where new towns are being built but is it worth UPC to launch HD in such areas?

They've been upgrading for the last 3 years and there's plenty of capacity now.

With Sky HD, you need two cables running to the box. Does anyone know if it'll be the same for cable or will one co-ax connection do it?

Alun

paulm17781 wrote: »

They've been upgrading for the last 3 years and there's plenty of capacity now.

Not here in Bray ... no BB and we still have CH4/E4/Discovery on the old VHF III channels (and yes I have tried retuning, they're not there on UHF).

paulm17781

paulm17781 wrote: »

They've been upgrading for the last 3 years and there's plenty of capacity now.

With Sky HD, you need two cables running to the box. Does anyone know if it'll be the same for cable or will one co-ax connection do it?

The 2 cables are required for the + recording function. Which all sky HD boxes are.

paulm17781

cisk wrote: »

The 2 cables are required for the + recording function. Which all sky HD boxes are.

There's no technical reason for this that I can see. The only reason I can think of to do this is double the bandwidth. Does anyone know if this is the reason or what the reason for two co-ax inputs is?

maggy_thatcher

paulm17781 wrote: »

There's no technical reason for this that I can see. The only reason I can think of to do this is double the bandwidth. Does anyone know if this is the reason or what the reason for two co-ax inputs is?

A separate cable is required for each separate receiver in order to listen on two frequencies at the same time. See the wikipedia page on LNBs for details. I guess they could've designed it so that they frequency-multiplexed the two signals onto a single cable, but would be non-standard, and would require the dual-receiver having to address the LNB somehow...
For cable, this isn't an issue - they already multiplex the signal on the wire, and rely on the tuner inside the box to focus on a particular frequency.

Alun

paulm17781 wrote: »

There's no technical reason for this that I can see. The only reason I can think of to do this is double the bandwidth. Does anyone know if this is the reason or what the reason for two co-ax inputs is?

It's the same on any multi-tuner satellite box AFAIK. You need a dish with a multiple (dual- or quad-) LNB (http://www.tech-faq.com/lnb.shtml) and each LNB is connected via it's own cable to it's own tuner. Whether that additional tuner is a separate tuner in the same set-top box for providing DVR functions, or a separate box in another room is immaterial.

I've no idea why it's done this way, and why you couldn't connect multiple tuners up to one LNB, unless some of the "tuning' is actually done by the LNB itself.

watty

The LNB is like a pre-tuner, a waveband switch, It *DOES* do tuning.

Cable or TV aerial has ALL the channels at once. A satellite Coax is not the real signal. That is converted at LNB and can be on high or low band and Vertical or Horizontal Polarisation. Thus the two tuners in a Terrestrial or cable box can share one input socket, but on satellite, there is only a 1:4 chance the 2nd channel (recorded while you watch a different one) are on the same signal settings. Or anothoer way, the LNB at the dish sees ALL the channels, but the coax can only have 1/4 of the channels.

For small installs you get an LNB with two, four or 8 outlets to feed multiple single receivers or PVRs such as Sky+, as you can't split the LNB signal to multiple receivers.

For hotels, Apartments or larger house setups you have a special "Quattro" LNB that has four outlets, none are controlled, they are: low + Vert, low + hor, Hi + vert and Hi +hor. together the four cables have ALL the channels. So you can amplify and split and distribute the signal to up to a 1000 receivers (or 500 Sky+ boxes). Each receiver has to connect to a special switch that combines the 4 coax cables to one in a way that simulates an LNB. Typically a single switch box might have 16 outlets.

I have a 16 outlet "multiswitch" that takes FOUR "quattro" LNBs, the 1st one is pointed at 28.2E (Sky/Freesat), The Sky boxes have no LNB selection feature, so they see the Sky signals. My PCs (3 each with 2 tuners) and other sat boxes can select an LNB via "DISEQC" commands. The "multiswitch" responds and will connect the correct one of 4 LNBs and the correct one of four coax for low + Vert, low + hor, Hi + vert OR Hi +hor of satellites at 28.2E, 13E, 19E, or 23.5E.

Another separate receiver controls a motorised dish. It only has a single outlet LNB as a PVR would need TWO motorised dishes, as the recorded channel might be a separate satellite. The 110cm motorised dish I think receives 22 different satellite positions between 42E and 50W

watty

paulm17781 wrote: »

They've been upgrading for the last 3 years and there's plenty of capacity now.

With Sky HD, you need two cables running to the box. Does anyone know if it'll be the same for cable or will one co-ax connection do it?

Cable only needs one coax for two tuners.

Cupart

paulm17781 wrote: »

They've been upgrading for the last 3 years and there's plenty of capacity now.

How come then I can't get BB from UPC then? I'm in D2!!!

NTL upgrading for the last three years means nothing...

watty

They haven't finished

paulm17781

Cupart wrote: »

How come then I can't get BB from UPC then? I'm in D2!!!

NTL upgrading for the last three years means nothing...

No idea, I'm not the UPC broadband map.

I'm in D2 and I can.

You can say it means nothing all you like but many thousands of people have had it made available to them over the last 3 years.

d8player

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/article/12892/

“UPC continues to invest strongly in providing a high-quality digital TV service, and we look forward to the introduction of our high-definition (HD) TV service over the coming months,” Dunn said.

techdiver

d8player wrote: »

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/article/12892/

“UPC continues to invest strongly in providing a high-quality digital TV service, and we look forward to the introduction of our high-definition (HD) TV service over the coming months,” Dunn said.

Unfortunately "over the coming months", in UPC language could mean anything. I may sound overly negative but I've heard this before, such as in the following article in 2006 - http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/11/19/story18995.asp , which contains the following quote: ‘‘We believe in HDTV and we think it’s the future, so yes, we will definitely be launching in the second half of next year.”

The repeated that commitment for the next 2 subsequent years also.

I won't hold my breath.

DingDong

The difference between then and now, is back then it was talk, now the physical HD equipment is being put in place and they have a large part of the network capable of receiving HD.

techdiver

DingDong wrote: »

The difference between then and now, is back then it was talk, now the physical HD equipment is being put in place and they have a large part of the network capable of receiving HD.

I'm sorry, but once again, I have no reason to believe them as we have heard all this before and when they make a statement in 2006 saying they will "definitely", be rolling out HD in 2007 and then they make no moves for 3 years, their credibility to be believed is shot.

There is no evidence that this is not just talk now also.

mad m

I was talking to an Upc tech head the other day. I asked him about N3 and he said it wont happen. He said Upc are pushing the broadband phone package big time,never mentioned HD. He said they were getting serious pressure to switch to N2 because of Sky etc. He said it would cost a fortune to switch to N3 because everyone would need new boxes?

DingDong

techdiver wrote: »

I'm sorry, but once again, I have no reason to believe them as we have heard all this before and when they make a statement in 2006 saying they will "definitely", be rolling out HD in 2007 and then they make no moves for 3 years, their credibility to be believed is shot.

There is no evidence that this is not just talk now also.

I understand your doubts techdriver but I do work for UPC and I've seen plenty of evidence of being on target for HD this year as opposed to previous announcement .

@mad m was this "Upc tech head" an installer because he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

techdiver

DingDong wrote: »

I understand your doubts techdriver but I do work for UPC and I've seen plenty of evidence of being on target for HD this year as opposed to previous announcement .

I really hope so. I'm like the child who has been let down so many times that he has lost his will to be expectant.:D

mad m

mad m wrote: »

I was talking to an Upc tech head the other day. I asked him about N3 and he said it wont happen. He said Upc are pushing the broadband phone package big time,never mentioned HD. He said they were getting serious pressure to switch to N2 because of Sky etc. He said it would cost a fortune to switch to N3 because everyone would need new boxes?

Erm all the new cards we got are N3 cards, so most official UPC boxes are running N3.

Bear in mind you can use more than once encryption alongside each other.

It would be idiotic for UPC to go to all the effort of cards swaps to stop at N2 which is open.

Infoanon

DingDong wrote: »

I understand your doubts techdriver but I do work for UPC and I've seen plenty of evidence of being on target for HD this year as opposed to previous announcement .

Ding Dong,

Whats the chances of 'interactive' ie the red buttons services esp BBC being added anytime soon ?

DingDong

Infoanon wrote: »

Ding Dong,

Whats the chances of 'interactive' ie the red buttons services esp BBC being added anytime soon ?

I haven't heard anything,but that's not to say there isn't any plans for it.