Is suicide ever justified?

Elessar

Can suicide really be justified?

I was reading a debate recently where the main thought process was that one should never patronise a suicidal person into living, that one has no right to place their pro-life morals onto them. The majority of posters were in agreement. I think this is a worthy debate.

Is it ok to kill yourself, euthanasia aside?

Can suicide be an acceptable "cure" for long-term deep depression?

Is it ok to take your own life simply because you just don't like it and no longer wish to participate?

Can it be justified?

AARRRGH

I would imagine in most cases the choice of suicide is a poor one, e.g. with some psychological help they probably could get over whatever issue they're facing.

But I do think, at the end of the day, a person should have the right to choose whether they live or die. It's just unfortunate most people probably make the wrong choice.

Deedsie

Euthanasia?

AARRRGH

Elessar wrote: »

Is it ok to kill yourself, euthanasia aside?

Deedsie wrote: »

Euthanasia?

:pac: :pac:

seanybiker

Deedsie wrote: »

Euthanasia?

Assisted suicide.


I have a couple of relations who committee suicide. I know why one of em done it, not sure why the other one did but I still believe its upto the person if they want to live or not.

chillywilly

hmm interesting topic.

I suppose it is ultimately the persons choice to kill themselves, and they do have the right. Where it is not justified is the innocent victims it leaves behind(family, friends etc), but if the person is in the state of mind to kill themselves i doubt they are in the state of mind to take into account the feelings of their loved ones.

Its just a shame that alot of suicides could have been avoided with a chat or some professional help.

orestes

Elessar wrote: »

Can suicide be an acceptable "cure" for long-term deep depression?

Is it ok to take your own life simply because you just don't like it and no longer wish to participate?

I don't think you have any idea of what actual depsression is like. It's not a matter of not liking your life and not wanting to participate anymore, it's like living in hell every day. I'm being treated for depression, and recently I very seriously contemplated suicide, that was what drove me to get help, but it was close. I would never judge someone who commits suicide, neither me you or anyone else can understand the reasons they have to bring their life to an end. It is tragic, but it is their decision.

AARRRGH

orestes wrote: »

I don't think you have any idea of what actual depsression is like.

I think everyone reacts differently to depression. Some people, like you, can't handle it and consider suicide, whereas others are able to talk themselves out of it.

I don't think depression is one size fits all.

I would agree with you though that it is very difficult to know what pain someone might be going through, or how badly it is affecting their life and their decision making.

Handsome Bob

How does that old saying go? Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem (apologies if I got it wrong). I've seen what suicide can do and just how destructive it can be to the people around you. I'm uncomfortable saying it's a selfish thing to do because those of us who haven't suffered from depression have no idea just how isolated, unloved and suffocated depressed people can feel. So back to that old saying "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem". I do think that if those suffering from depression can face their fears about being perceived as weak or that people wouldn't understand them, then suicidal feelings can be combated. Once people can talk through their issues with the right people, it is instigating the road to recovery.

So is it ever justified? Not in my view as I think it can be dealt with if people are willing to talk.

In regards to assisted suicide, it's not my place to judge. If someone is in so much physical pain that they cannot function in life then I'd have no right to say they were unjustifid in wanting to die. But due to the current legislation in this country, I would say that it wouldn't be right to ask a loved one to assist you. Not only are you asking someone who loves you to contribute to your death but you are also putting them in peril with the law.

Ickle Magoo

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think everyone reacts differently to depression. Some people, like you, can't handle it and consider suicide, whereas others are able to talk themselves out of it.

I don't think depression is one size fits all.

To be fair, if someone can jolly themselves out of it then it's more likely to be feeling a bit blue as opposed to clinical depression.

Ickle Magoo

Justified for whom? I'm sure it's rightly justified for the person who didn't want to live anymore - justified for all those left behind? Of course not.

My friend committed suicide, I was the last person she talked to. I knew why she was really depressed, that she had problems with her brother & her mum & brother were fighting all the time & her girlfriend had dumped her & she hated her job & a few other stuff were making her really unhappy & I don't think she could see that things didn't have to be that way.

At her funeral, her brother & her mum all got together - sorted their issues out. Her ex was in bit because she'd be considering asking her to get back together. There were numerous jobs about & I was really angry that she never gave it enough time to see past the bad stuff & altho it sounds really funny, I bet she really regrets doing it now.

So I think suicidal people should be kept safe from themselves & get all the help they need to help them to see life is worth living.

Assisted suicide or euthanasia is a different topic, for me anyway.

seanybiker

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

To be fair, if someone can jolly themselves out of it then it's more likely to be feeling a bit blue as opposed to clinical depression.

Not really. Ive suffered from it for years. I can cheer meself up. Fair enough it doesnt always last that long. Ya know yourself, ya have your good days and bad days. Tis a balls but im starting to handle it a bit better than i used to. Only took 13 years but sure feck it. Long way to go yet. Wont be committing suicide though.
Ive taking bottles of tablets a few times and the bloody things didnt work. Im happy now that they didnt work but at the time I was annoyed.

AARRRGH

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

To be fair, if someone can jolly themselves out of it then it's more likely to be feeling a bit blue as opposed to clinical depression.

I disagree. I think we are all different, and we all have our own strengths and weaknesses. Some people are able to handle depression, and some people can't. Just like some people are able to handle drinking, and others become alcoholics, etc.

But this is all sort of off-topic.

Micky Dolenz

Elessar wrote: »

Can suicide really be justified?

Nearly everything can be justified under certain conditions.

For example, you are kidnapped while on holidays in the Congo, with a few other people, every niight you hear your fellow victims, raped and mutilated and killed.

Now you have the chance to kill yourself quick and reletively painlessly or to suffer for hours/days at the hands of monsters when a certain death will be your only realise.

Would you committing suicide now be justified?

I think so.

Ickle Magoo

AARRRGH wrote: »

I disagree. I think we are all different, and we all have our own strengths and weaknesses. Some people are able to handle depression, and some people can't. Just like some people are able to handle drinking, and others become alcoholics, etc.

But this is all sort of off-topic.

Sorry, I just have to respond to that before you declare it off-topic...

What I mean is I don't think you can lump chronic clinical depression in with mild SAD, say & make a flippant comment about some people being able to shrug it off like they have some kind of innate ability for coping with their depression. You have to consider that depression takes many forms and in varying intensities & if someone has a very mild form of depression they are not going to require the levels of support or treatment that someone with a debilitating form needs. It's not a matter of changing attitude or being stronger or better able.

I also think alcoholism is a self-inflicted dependency on a mind-altering substance which is absolutely nothing like the chemical imbalance responsible for most serious depressions. It does speak volumes about the general ignorance surrounding mental health that it should be lumped in there with alcoholism as opposed to using an analogy about depression & anti-depressants as being more akin to someone developing diabetes & requiring insulin.

Handsome Bob

AARRRGH wrote: »

I disagree. I think we are all different, and we all have our own strengths and weaknesses. Some people are able to handle depression, and some people can't. Just like some people are able to handle drinking, and others become alcoholics, etc.

But this is all sort of off-topic.

To be honest that is a bit of an over-simplification. If you know any alcoholic well enough you'll know that they use alcohol as a crutch in life. They hate their life and everything about it, for them drinking isn't a social thing, it is something for numbing their unhappyness and making them forget about their miserable life.

Severe depression mirrors this. People are deeply and constantly unhappy with their lives to the point where they can't get out of bed in the morning and life has lost all meaning and interest. That kind of depression is something that one cannot handle on their own and need professional help before it continues to manifest into something more destructive.

AARRRGH

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You have to consider that depression takes many forms and in varying intensities & if someone has a very mild form of depression they are not going to require the levels of support or treatment that someone with a debilitating form needs.

Just like you have to take into account that some people have better coping skills, and in general are mentally stronger.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Severe depression mirrors this. People are deeply and constantly unhappy with their lives to the point where they can't get out of bed in the morning and life has lost all meaning and interest. That kind of depression is something that one cannot handle on their own and need professional help

That is true for some people who suffer from depression, but not for everyone who suffers from depression.

I find it a bit small minded to think that anyone who manages to sort out their depression themselves "can't have been deeply depressed".

That's such a defeatist attitude.

The reality is some people have better coping skills and are able to talk themselves out of their deep depression.

I'm sorry that some people feel overwhelmed by their depression, but that doesn't mean everyone does. As I say, coping skills. We are all different.

Handsome Bob

AARRRGH wrote: »

That is true for some people who suffer from depression, but not for everyone who suffers from depression.

Indeed, that's why I said severe depression.

I find it a bit small minded to think that anyone who manages to sort out their depression themselves "can't have been deeply depressed".

There are various different types of depression such as reactive and endogenous depression. Reactive depression is something that is instigated by an unhappy event such as bereavement. We all go through it, we grieve and are down but eventually our coping skills and mental strength allow us to not get over loss, but to live with it. This is the kind of depression you are referring to.

However there are more severe cases such endogenous depression where people can't function in their lives, they are basically paralysed by their symptoms. That is deep depression, and something people need help with.

That's such a defeatist attitude.

The reality is some people have better coping skills and are able to talk themselves out of their deep depression.

I'm sorry that some people feel overwhelmed by their depression, but that doesn't mean everyone does. As I say, coping skills. We are all different.

Isn't that a bit small minded to dismiss people with severe cases of depression as mentally weak? With severe cases of depression such endogenous or manic (both of which AWARE suggest are biological or inherited conditions) people cannot help but be overwhelmed by their depression. Coping skills in this respect cannot be accessed without professional help.

Ickle Magoo

AARRRGH wrote: »

Just like you have to take into account that some people have better coping skills, and in general are mentally stronger.

I'm not doubting that is true to the same extent that some people have a higher or lower pain threshold than others - what it doesn't alter is that like any illness, there can be mild and severe forms of depression. If there are huge chemical imbalances in your brain making your thoughts difficult to process, coping skills and mental strength are completely useless because you can't access them. It's much easier to logify and work through mild forms of depression because they are just that.

AARRRGH

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Isn't that a bit small minded to dismiss people with severe cases of depression as mentally weak?

I never said people with severe cases of depression are mentally weak.

I said some people have better coping skills or are mentally stronger.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth so it seems like I am bad mouthing depressed people.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

If there are huge chemical imbalances in your brain making your thoughts difficult to process, coping skills and mental strength are completely useless because you can't access them.

Yeah, I don't doubt there are depressed people who have severe chemical imbalances, but are they in the minority or majority?

Elessar

I think we need to get back on topic.

Can suicide be justified?

Handsome Bob

AARRRGH wrote: »

I never said people with severe cases of depression are mentally weak.

I said some people have better coping skills or are mentally stronger.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth so it seems like I am bad mouthing depressed people.

I didn't intend in putting words in your mouth, I assumed that you were inferring that people with severe depression lacked mental strength. My apologies. I'm sure you never intended in putting words in my mouth either when you said;

I find it a bit small minded to think that anyone who manages to sort out their depression themselves "can't have been deeply depressed".

We're all guilty at times of misconstruing what each other says.:)

I think we need to get back on topic.

Can suicide be justified?

We are talking about whether suicide can be justifid. You can't have a debate on it without discussing depression and its' affect on people.

irish_bob

Elessar wrote: »

Can suicide really be justified?

I was reading a debate recently where the main thought process was that one should never patronise a suicidal person into living, that one has no right to place their pro-life morals onto them. The majority of posters were in agreement. I think this is a worthy debate.

Is it ok to kill yourself, euthanasia aside?

Can suicide be an acceptable "cure" for long-term deep depression?

Is it ok to take your own life simply because you just don't like it and no longer wish to participate?

Can it be justified?

i have great respect for people who have the guts to commit suicide , its the bravest thing anyone can do , you are making the ultimate step and refusing to accept your life as a failure , i myself would never have the guts , when i was younger i often thought about it but was too chicken so like the majority of people who encounter depression ( which btw changes your life forever for the worse ) i just accepted a reduced quality of life

fair play to those who say , screw this , i aint settling for second best

as for it being cruel on the family you leave behind , most people who commit suicde come from dysfunctional familys and a family member most likely played a big part in the persons unhappiness

irish_bob

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Sorry, I just have to respond to that before you declare it off-topic...

What I mean is I don't think you can lump chronic clinical depression in with mild SAD, say & make a flippant comment about some people being able to shrug it off like they have some kind of innate ability for coping with their depression. You have to consider that depression takes many forms and in varying intensities & if someone has a very mild form of depression they are not going to require the levels of support or treatment that someone with a debilitating form needs. It's not a matter of changing attitude or being stronger or better able.

I also think alcoholism is a self-inflicted dependency on a mind-altering substance which is absolutely nothing like the chemical imbalance responsible for most serious depressions. It does speak volumes about the general ignorance surrounding mental health that it should be lumped in there with alcoholism as opposed to using an analogy about depression & anti-depressants as being more akin to someone developing diabetes & requiring insulin.

good post , alocholism is of course a self inflicted dependancy , in our ****ed up world where personal responsibility has become the ultimate dirty word , every indisciplined indulgance can be now excused as a disease

Ickle Magoo

irish_bob wrote: »

good post , alocholism is of course a self inflicted dependancy , in our ****ed up world where personal responsibility has become the ultimate dirty word , every indisciplined indulgance can be now excused as a disease

That's not entirely fair either, tbh. There's a huge range of societal & personal reasons - maybe even genetic reasons - why people can & do become alcoholics, my point was that we pick up a glass & pour alcohol down our throats, I don't know any way of doing that with depression - tho they share many similarities of origin.

jimmyskank

Very sensitive subject, I think its fair to say that most people have been affected from suicide at some stage but IMHO all it does is shift the problems of the person who commits suicide to their family and friends, multiplied by ten.

pierrot

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Nearly everything can be justified under certain conditions.

This is it basically. Anything is justified if you can justify it.

iseethelight

irish_bob wrote: »

i have great respect for people who have the guts to commit suicide , its the bravest thing anyone can do , you are making the ultimate step and refusing to accept your life as a failure , i myself would never have the guts , when i was younger i often thought about it but was too chicken so like the majority of people who encounter depression ( which btw changes your life forever for the worse ) i just accepted a reduced quality of life

fair play to those who say , screw this , i aint settling for second best

as for it being cruel on the family you leave behind , most people who commit suicde come from dysfunctional familys and a family member most likely played a big part in the persons unhappiness

I must comment on this. Suicide is a difficult decision but not a rational one. Depression does not change your life for the worse. Seek help in family,friends and doctors. There are ways out of everything.

I don't believe most people who commit suicide come from dysfunctional familys. Most have normal functioning family units. Help is available. Mental illness is not stigmatised any longer. Don't take that step without reaching out.
HELP IS AVAILABLE

deadhead13

Elessar wrote: »

I think we need to get back on topic.

Can suicide be justified?

I don't understand what you mean by "justified".

irish_bob

iseethelight wrote: »

I must comment on this. Suicide is a difficult decision but not a rational one. Depression does not change your life for the worse. Seek help in family,friends and doctors. There are ways out of everything.

I don't believe most people who commit suicide come from dysfunctional familys. Most have normal functioning family units. Help is available. Mental illness is not stigmatised any longer. Don't take that step without reaching out.
HELP IS AVAILABLE

ah the old cliche HELP IS AVAILABLE , why not just accept that some people perfer not to admit weakness

AARRRGH

irish_bob wrote: »

why not just accept that some people perfer not to admit weakness

Some people? Nearly everyone I'd say.

Denial is a massive problem on an individual/society level.

sam34

there is a school of thought that suicide can be regarded as one of the natural end-points of major psychiatric illnesses, in pretty much the same way that death from a heart attack can be regarded as a natural end-point of major coronary artery disease.

it's not only depressed people who commit suicide obviously, its also a significant cause of death in bipolar people and schizophrenia.

it is something i sometimes struggle with as a psychiatrist, tbh.

i mean, it's my gut instinct and aim when treating people to get them to the best level of functioning possible.

but sometimes, you see people with such severe and intractible illness that you know in your heart and soul that, even with the most proactive and intense treatment they are unlikely to attain what most of us would consider a good (or even reasonable) quality of life.

i have seen people like this and thought to myself "if i was that person, i would kill myself".

of course, if/when they commit suicide, you inevitably struggle with a sense of guilt and failure, wondering if you could have done more. when the emotions settle al ittle and you can look at it objectively, you usually realise that it was not preventible.

that applies to a certain proportion of suicides.

the hardest ones to deal with are the ones where you know/feel strongly that the person would have improved with further treatment, but they just didnt/couldnt give it time to work.

thats hard to take, because you know it was a potentially preventible death.

the stigma against psychiatric illnesses is alive and kicking, and i have no doubt it contributes to our high suicide rate, as it prevents/deters some people from seeking help.

you would think that a suicide would lead the general public to understand that depression (or other psychiatric illnesses) are not afflictions of "weak" people and are not amenable to "pulling socks up/pulling oneself together", but that is clearly not the case. just read some of the replies to this thread for evidence of that.

some people will claim that those who commit suicide are weak/selfish/etc etc. you will generally find that those who make those claims have little or no understanding of what mental illness is (or isnt), yet they happily pontificate and contribute towards a further stigmatization of a population that, quite frankly, are marginalised and vulnerable enough already.

Elessar

sam34 wrote: »

words

It's interesting to get a psychiatrists opinion on this. Do you deal with many young people? Of those you have worked with who killed themselves, what percentage would you believe could have improved to "normal" levels had they continued with treatment?

How do you feel about people who, with no major psychiatric illness, simply choose to die instead of living? Or is there always something to treat in cases like that?

With people with little to no signs of psychosis, do you feel that their suicide is can be justified?

sam34

Elessar wrote: »

It's interesting to get a psychiatrists opinion on this. Do you deal with many young people? Of those you have worked with who killed themselves, what percentage would you believe could have improved to "normal" levels had they continued with treatment?

How do you feel about people who, with no major psychiatric illness, simply choose to die instead of living? Or is there always something to treat in cases like that?

With people with little to no signs of psychosis, do you feel that their suicide is can be justified?

i dont deal with young people anymore, i deal with the elderly. but i did spend a good few years in general adult psych, ie those aged 18 to 65. (also six months in child psych but thankfully didnt encounter any suicides in that time)

it would be hard to put percentages or figures on it, tbh. i mean, there certainly have been times that ive heard of a suicide and ive thought "i dont blame them, i'd do the same". but thats been in the minority of cases. most people, i feel, would attain a reasonable quality of life with adequate treatment. whether "reasonable" = "normal" is a different debate, i suppose.

your question about those with no psychiatric illness who commit suicide - these people do exist, but they would definitely be in the minority of suicides. i suppose im thinking of people who impulsively do it in response to a sudden huge stress, (in fact a relative of mine killed himself an hour after finding out hs wife was leaving him) and then people who have more chronic stressors who view it as a better option...im thinking of those with major physical illnesses or maybe severe financial pressure. these people may of course get psych illnesses, but not always.
these would be what would be termed "rational suicides" , ie done in teh absence of mental illness.

the issue is-even if you could predict these, what would you do about it?

you cant treat an ilness that isnt there

you cant lock someone up forever more if they dont have a mental illness (you cant do it either even if they have an ilness, but thats a different discussion altogether)

what do you do with people like that?

ultimately nothing, i suppose.

which seems heartless, and is no consolation to families left behind, but teh reality is there is no obvious solution.

generally, i think suicide in the absence of mental illness, can be justified. i can think of a few physical illnesses that, were i to get them, i would seriously consider suicide.

Frankly, If I got something serious like Aids, I would seriously consider suicide. Personally, I have no problem with those that wish to commit suicide, as long as they're not leaving problems (financial, personal etc) behind for other people to clear up. I can appreciate people who try to "prepare" their family prior to killing themselves.

irish_bob

the response ( its a cowards way out ) stems from the notion that if someone thinks they will be branded a coward , they wont commit suicide , its a pathetic attempt at a deterant , its the cliches to end all cliches

as i said in an earlier post , commiting suicide is about the bravest thing someone can do , you are making the ultimate descision , stepping into the unknown , ive known a few people who done it , all were the most decent honorable people one could meet , people who commit suicide are usually very proud people , they cant stand to settle for being a failure as failure in some area is most likely what drove them to do such a thing , instead of being someone who had to visit a shrink and take mind numbing anti depressants , they decided to deal with thier pain the quick but descisive way
i have some unusual views on suicide as is obviously clear
i believe that if more people commited suicide the world would be a better place , i believe that thier are many losers out there who instead of taking out thier anger and unhappiness on themselves by ending it , decided to instead look outwards and take it out on societey , anti social criminal types , im sure they are unhappy people who made a descison at some point in thier life that they were not going to give a fig for anyone , i think its quite likely many of them considered suicide but hadnt the decency or guts to do the job and instead let thier anger turn them into sociopaths

losers never commit suicide , only winners who lost

sam34

irish_bob wrote: »

people who commit suicide are usually very proud people , they cant stand to settle for being a failure as failure in some area is most likely what drove them to do such a thing , instead of being someone who had to visit a shrink and take mind numbing anti depressants , they decided to deal with thier pain the quick but descisive way

this may be correct for some people, but it is not the case for the majority of suicides.

most people who commit suicide have a mental illness and are under medical care (be it psychiatric or GP) for that.

and, as an aside, what is it about attending psychiatric services and being on meds that makes someone a "failure"?

i would consider having good insight into an illness and actively seeking out treatment for that to be far from "failure".

do you consider people who attend cardiologists/neurologists/endocrinologists and take meds for heart failure/MS/diabetes to be "failures" as well?

It is this sort of attitude that contributes to the already huge stigma against those who are mentally ill.

sam34

sam34 wrote: »

this may be correct for some people, but it is not the case for the majority of suicides.

most people who commit suicide have a mental illness and are under medical care (be it psychiatric or GP) for that.

and, as an aside, what is it about attending psychiatric services and being on meds that makes someone a "failure"?

i would consider having good insight into an illness and actively seeking out treatment for that to be far from "failure".

do you consider people who attend cardiologists/neurologists/endocrinologists and take meds for heart failure/MS/diabetes to be "failures" as well?

It is this sort of attitude that contributes to the already huge stigma against those who are mentally ill.

There are plenty of perfectly harmless "disorders" which society & medicine categorize as mental illness. The problem with the mind is that science is still trying to understand "thought". Sure, it has begun to understand thought processes, and to place certain behaviors into clear structures, but for the most part, its guesswork. Modern day psychology doesn't really comprehend the human mind very well beyond plenty of assumptions.

Mental illness can be ascribed easily to many people, simply because they don't conform to modern society's standards. Institutes disagree widely regarding how to "cure" patients, and that surely shows the lack of understanding by the medical community regarding the mind.

It could easily be true that the mental illness that many suicides is simply "Depression". But the true understanding of what depression actually is, what causes it, what accelerates it, and how to cure it, is far beyond the grasp of people right now. Which is also the problem with many disorders out there.

I wouldn't say that the people who commit suicide are definitely "mentally ill". They just chose to escape a society which many of them never understood in the first place, and a society that failed to understand them.

Note. I am talking about mainstream suicides, rather than those with severe & violent states of minds.

joe freethinker

no. if people could share problems with others suicide wouldnt exist
no problem is too big or unsolvable.I feel for victim as much as the family left behind.

Sarky

I very much doubt one can really understand severe depression unless one has experienced it themselves.

You lose interest in things- Even your fondest hobbies, the things for which you got out of bed in the morning, the people and things you KNOW you love, will be little or no comfort. The world around you withers and dies, colours aren't so vivid, music loses its power to move you, food tastes less delicious, conversation becomes tedious and boring. You know damn well there's no good reason for feeling so horrible, but that makes no difference, and absolutely nothing you try helps in any significant fashion. That's not to say a depressed person can't be logical, far from it. Just that logic doesn't HELP. You'll be feeling hopeless despite knowing otherwise, and nothing you can do changes that. Strong or not it'll crush you like an ant with sickening ease. Other people saying "cheer up", or "there's always a solution" and other clichés quickly grate, and can make things worse.

Medication is a very unpredictable option. There's no guarantee that a given drug will work, and it can make things far, far worse. Some people can go through a dozen types of medication before finding one that works. And it's never certain to work.

In the face of all that, I find it easy to see how for some people all the evidence points to there being no hope, no light at the end of the tunnel. Nothing but misery and pain, medication not working, it's either feeling this way for years until age claims you, or taking matters into your own hands and ending the suffering sooner. You'd cut your losses and walk out of a really awful film, wouldn't you?

I find the people saying suicide should never be an option to be quite selfish sometimes, really. What about the poor sod that just took their own life? What about their opinion on the matter, eh? They're the ones who felt bad enough to end it, are their feelings less important than your own?

So yes, I could justify suicide to myself, my own or someone else's. The question "Is suicide ever justified" suggests it's not a valid option in the first place. I am certain there are a lot of people who would disagree, were they around today.

good_samaritan

If anyone feels that this is on their mind, and feel they cannot talk to someone about it, send me a PM (personal message). Im willing to help

easyeason3

I had the misfortune of reading a persons suicide note a few years ago. It was very basic & it didn't explain why they wanted to go down that road.
My heart went out to the family. They spent their time boiling the kettle, looking at old photos, remembering the good times, trying to painfully work out why their child would want to take their own life.
I'm a firm believer that when someones time is up, it's up. Be it through an accident, illness, murder or suicide.
But I'm also a firm believer that if a suicide victim could turn back the time & see the damage left behind a lot of them would change their minds.
I've always said that, touch wood, if I ever had a terminal illness of the body I would want to pull the plug once all avenues have been explored & had obviously come back negative.
But I've never given much thought to an illness or terminal illness of the mind. It's a very fine line.

Acacia

irish_bob wrote: »

i have great respect for people who have the guts to commit suicide , its the bravest thing anyone can do , you are making the ultimate step and refusing to accept your life as a failure , i myself would never have the guts , when i was younger i often thought about it but was too chicken so like the majority of people who encounter depression ( which btw changes your life forever for the worse ) i just accepted a reduced quality of life

fair play to those who say , screw this , i aint settling for second best

as for it being cruel on the family you leave behind , most people who commit suicde come from dysfunctional familys and a family member most likely played a big part in the persons unhappiness

Coming from somebody who's relation committed suicide, that post just...argh, I don't even have the words, really.

Firstly, not everyone who commits suicide comes from a dysfunctional family. Secondly, just because a family situation may have made the suicidal person unhappy, it doesn't mean the family feel okay with them killing themselves. Sorry, but I feel like you're saying "Oh well, they made them unhappy enough to commit suicide, so if it's cruel on them, then tough..."

As for the rest of your post, there is a huge difference between not 'accepting your life as a failure' and killing yourself. It's not about being brave or having guts, it's about being so miserable you can't go on anymore. Personally, I think it's more brave to ask for help and try and get on with your life as best you can. I sincerely wish my relation had just asked for help or talked about his problems instead of being 'brave' and ending it all.

I'm sorry that this is a very personal response but my own experiences will probably prevent me from having a completely objective outlook on this.

good_samaritan

I will say it again, I am willing to help

easyeason3

good_samaritan wrote: »

I will say it again, I am willing to help

What advice would you give to someone who is considering suicide or to family/ friends of someone who knows someone who may be considering it?
I've watched ' I see a darkness' on RTE & while it was very sensitive to the families that have been through it, I felt that the programme focused on individual cases rather than giving general information. I know that to show the families thoughts & reactions on what has happened was important.
But I feel there are so many different reasons for people doing it & I personally don't think it came across as hard hitting as it should have.
I certainly appreciate family & friends of suicide victims talking in front of a camera, but I felt like there was something missing.
I only saw a few of the stories told but for the ones I did see, I was a bit shocked that there wasn't a professional medical opinion offered. As I said I only saw a few episodes but for the ones I did watch I didn't see a professional offering advice or signs to watch out for.

sam34

Deleted User wrote: »

There are plenty of perfectly harmless "disorders" which society & medicine categorize as mental illness.

Mental illness can be ascribed easily to many people, simply because they don't conform to modern society's standards. Institutes disagree widely regarding how to "cure" patients, and that surely shows the lack of understanding by the medical community regarding the mind.QUOTE]

what "disorders" are you talking about?

i wonder if you're talking about personality disorders. they would not be considered by psychiatrists a s"mental illnesses". while the care and management of those with personality disorders usually falls to the psychiatric services, nevertheless they are not considered mental illnesses in a similar way to schizophrenia/bipolar/depression etc.

in any event, the notion of a "harmless disorder" is something of a contradiction in terms isnt it?

people are not labelled mentally ill because they simply "dont conform to modern society's standards".

people are diagnosed with a mental illness based on a number of criteria which are well researched and well validated. its not simply a case of "not meeting standards so lets label you schizophrenic". there are strict criteria laid down for diagnostic purposes. in the way that you cannot be diagnosed with hypertension based on one high BP reading, you are not diagnosed with a mental illness without a collection of symptoms which, as i sadi beforre, are well-validated.

sam34

joe freethinker wrote: »

no. if people could share problems with others suicide wouldnt exist
no problem is too big or unsolvable.I feel for victim as much as the family left behind.

there are some illnesses that are so severe and intractible taht no sharing/talking or even treatment will alleviate.

enda1

I have never met anyone who went on to kill themselves (not that I know of anyway) so have a failry abstract relation to the subject.

Everyone has responsibility for themselves once they reach maturity and as long as you do not have responsibility over someone else (be you a mother or father of a child) then whether you live or die is your choice.

While its nice to think that if someone kills themselves that peoples lives will be damaged around them but the opposite can also be true as horrible as it may sound to say.

Some people are pricks. They can inflict such harm and despair and disgust to their fellow human being that their death is a blessing to all.

So yes suicide is something that can be justified given the circmstances. If people will be hurt by your death that's unfortunate but maybe you will be hurt by your life so its a trade off no? And humans are ultimately selfish so C'est la vie! (or maybe not;))

irish_bob

enda1 wrote: »

I have never met anyone who went on to kill themselves (not that I know of anyway) so have a failry abstract relation to the subject.

Everyone has responsibility for themselves once they reach maturity and as long as you do not have responsibility over someone else (be you a mother or father of a child) then whether you live or die is your choice.

While its nice to think that if someone kills themselves that peoples lives will be damaged around them but the opposite can also be true as horrible as it may sound to say.

Some people are pricks. They can inflict such harm and despair and disgust to their fellow human being that their death is a blessing to all.

So yes suicide is something that can be justified given the circmstances. If people will be hurt by your death that's unfortunate but maybe you will be hurt by your life so its a trade off no? And humans are ultimately selfish so C'est la vie! (or maybe not;))

this post is full of basic common sense , as i said in an earlier post , the world would be a better place if more scumbags with no standards has instead done the decent thing and dealt with thier anger internally by ending it rather than becoming a parriah against society

as for the shrink sams comment about how thier is a strict criteria used to diagnose particular mental ilnesses , i often wonder is this long and drawn out checklist simply a concieted effort to create as manysub groups as possible within the head doctor fraternity

i have a relation who was hit by a car when they were young , they have serious psycological issues , they are being bounced around from psychiatricts to neuropsychologists to neuro psychiatricsts and the aquired brain injury crowd , all each of them do is engage in semantics and the only thing they are sure about is that the subject does not fit thier own criteria so thier is of course nothing they can do


most head doctors are a talking shop

sam34

irish_bob as for the shrink sams comment about how thier is a strict criteria used to diagnose particular mental ilnesses , i often wonder is this long and drawn out checklist simply a concieted effort to create as manysub groups as possible within the head doctor fraternity

so we're damned if we do and damned if we dont :rolleyes:
an earlier poster claimed that people who simply "dont conform" are labelled mentally ill and here we have bob claiming that the "checklist" is not actually a set of diagnostic criteria but rather a "conceited effort..."

menatl illnesses, just like any other illnesses you can mention, have specific diagnostic criteria, and if someone does not meet those criteria then they do not have that diagnosis.

if you have one high blood sugar reading, it does not mena you have diabetes.

if you have a crappy day and feel down, it does not mena you have depression.

i have a relation who was hit by a car when they were young , they have serious psycological issues , they are being bounced around from psychiatricts to neuropsychologists to neuro psychiatricsts and the aquired brain injury crowd , all each of them do is engage in semantics and the only thing they are sure about is that the subject does not fit thier own criteria so thier is of course nothing they can do

so, would you rather that people who themselves acknowledge they do not have the training and expertise to manage your relative just bumble along and treat them anyway??

if i had an illness of any sort and went to a doctor, i'd much prefer if they told me "listen, this isnt my area", rather than just treated me anyway even though that wasnt their field.

most head doctors are a talking shop

you clearly have problems with the notion of psychiatrists and the psychiatric services, which you feel are inadequate.

you also clearly have issues with the mentally ill - this was evidenced by a rather disgraceful comment of yours in the psychology forum recently, which, thankfully, a mod removed.

the irony of it all is that with attitudes like yours around, there will continue to be a great need for the psychiatric services and there will contimue to be a high number of suicides.

Red Sleeping Beauty

sam34 wrote: »

i would consider having good insight into an illness and actively seeking out treatment for that to be far from "failure".

Psychiatry in Ireland traditionally does not engage the patient. There's no informed discussion, no sharing of facts and no discourse. It's quite cold, calculated and treated medically with pills. If you're seeing a cardiologist for heart problems that doctor has to explain everything to you in understandable terms. Psychiatrists (in Ireland) don't quite follow the same path - but of course, how do you explain or describe an "invisible illness" ?

Therapy seems to be a dirtier word than psychiatrist or medication.