Budget (supplementary) 2009

bill_ashmount

murphaph wrote: »

Ireland is TOO SMALL to be diluting jobs all over the place. That's one of our main problems. In (for example) Bavaria (roughly the size of ireland), people expect that if they grow up in a regional or rural area that they will have to head off to Munich or Nurnberg to study and work and visit home at the weekends/holidays. They don't expect jobs to be brought to their rural area or small town.

Can you define regional? Should everything be focused on Dublin? Move 4.2 million people into Dublin county?

Cork stands on its own two feet economically providing a surplus to the Irish goverment and should be deveopled as well.

invincibleirish

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Cork stands on its own two feet economically providing a surplus to the Irish goverment and should be deveopled as well.

Is it not a case that its pretty evenly balanced? are you basing your claim on the CSO social transfer stats?

Gruffalo

murphaph wrote: »

As Zoney himself admitted, the NSS failed becuse many of you guys in the regions and yur politicians couldn't agree amongst yourselves that certain towns had to lose out under the NSS and so it was watered down and watered down so as to appear that no parish pump would lose it's infrastructure!

That's the problem-you all want your parish/village/town/county to have a hospital/university/industrial estate/etc. It's the GAA County Jersey mentality that has is fcuked as much as anything else.

You want one off houses all over the fcuking place and then expect jobs and services to be brought to you. Ridiculous.

And there is no difference between these people and you. You want everything in Dublin (which cannot cope with everything) while they want everything in the country.

I notice you did not answer my question. If we were to follow your braindead idea, where would we fit 4.25 million people and all the services and facilities they require?

And dont tell me what I think. I will tell you what I think, understand goson?

Metrobest

BluntGuy wrote: »

Those weren't going ahead anyway... so it comes as no surprise.

And yes, Interconnector must take priority over Metro North and indeed all other transport infrastructure projects in the country, but I fear that will not happen. The DoT and our media have been giving undue precedence to Metro North and as such I fear if it comes down to choosing between IC and MN, MN will go ahead because it's the more politically beneficial project to proceed with.

And even if no payments are due until 2015 - that's great. But we shouldn't assume (as I feel many people do) that we're going to magically come out of recession and back into prosperity come 2012. People don't realise the extent of the damage our property bubble has done. It will take us years, perhaps a decade or two to return to what we had going before this FF government recked it all.

Amidst all the gloom, it's hard to remember that Ireland has been running budget surpluses into the billions over the last ten years. Remember the good old days when an extra billion would roll in from this tax or another?

I think Ireland should max out the debt over the coming years and pump money into infrastucture projects like metro north and the underground DART. Not only do these projects generate tens of thousands of jobs directly and indirectly, they prepare Ireland to take advantage of the upswing which many people think will happen as early as this December. And now's the time to take advantage of lower constuction and wage costs.

If I had to single out one project essential for Ireland's economic future, it's got to be Metro North. Anyone who thinks it's the interconnector is living in cloud cookoo land - the interconnector predominantly services car dependent low density celtic tiger commuter housing on the outer suburbs of Dublin and Co Kildare. It's catering to dormitory commuter towns where you'll have a peak in the AM and PM Monday-Friday with trains empty in between. It will do zilch to take Ireland out of recession. It will obviously simplify commuter rail for Dublin. But the question is how much capacity this low density corridor really requires and whether or not there is any sustainable planning strategy.

Build the interconnector and no Metro North and you'll have people in two story semi Ds in Hazelhatch and Lucan speeding into Pearse Station in 20 minutes (if they still have jobs to go to) while executives flying into Dublin Airport endure third world traffic conditions, and the commuters of Swords sit on buses that take over one hour. Hardly the image of an economy that's likely to grow.

Metro North is a national stimulus to sustainable construction development along its short corridor, totally changing the lives of the citizens of North Dublin and contributing to the future success of the 2bn airport terminal DAA is building. Metro North is an engine for sustainable growth in Dublin. The interconnector is an economic black hole that's trying to alleviate the gross planning mistakes of times past, without any proper spatial strategy to justify why we need it, and where the passengers will actually come from to use it.

I can't believe anyone on this forum seriously thinks the interconnector is more important that Metro North!

It shoudn't be either/or. But if it is.. we have to be realistic about which project is going to benefit the exchequer and stimulate growth, and which one will drain resources for questionable benefits.

murphaph

Gruffalo wrote: »

And there is no difference between these people and you. You want everything in Dublin (which cannot cope with everything) while they want everything in the country.

I notice you did not answer my question. If we were to follow your braindead idea, where would we fit 4.25 million people and all the services and facilities they require?

And dont tell me what I think. I will tell you what I think, understand goson?

Angry much? lol.

I never suggested that EVERYONE move to Dublin. Go back and find where I did and I'll give you a gold star. That's why I didn't answer your silly question.

Gruffalo

Metrobest wrote: »

Amidst all the gloom, it's hard to remember that Ireland has been running budget surpluses into the billions over the last ten years. Remember the good old days when an extra billion would roll in from this tax or another?

I think Ireland should max out the debt over the coming years and pump money into infrastucture projects like metro north and the underground DART. Not only do these projects generate tens of thousands of jobs directly and indirectly, they prepare Ireland to take advantage of the upswing which many people think will happen as early as this December. And now's the time to take advantage of lower constuction and wage costs.

If I had to single out one project essential for Ireland's economic future, it's got to be Metro North. Anyone who thinks it's the interconnector is living in cloud cookoo land - the interconnector predominantly services car dependent low density celtic tiger commuter housing on the outer suburbs of Dublin and Co Kildare. It's catering to dormitory commuter towns where you'll have a peak in the AM and PM Monday-Friday with trains empty in between. It will do zilch to take Ireland out of recession. But it will obviously simplify commuter rail for Dublin. But the question is how much capacity this low density corridor really requires and whether or not there is any sustainable planning strategy.

Build the interconnector and no Metro North and you'll have people in two story semi Ds in Hazelhatch and Lucan speeding into Pearse Station in 20 minutes (if they still have jobs to go to) while executives flying into Dublin Airport endure third world traffic conditions, and the commuters of Swords sit on buses that take over one hour. Hardly the image of an economy that's likely to grow.

Metro North is a national stimulus to sustainable construction development along its short corridor, totally changing the lives of the citizens of North Dublin and contributing to the future success of the 2bn airport terminal DAA is building. Metro North is an engine for sustainable growth in Dublin. The interconnector is an economic black hole that's trying to alleviate the gross planning mistakes of times past, without any proper spatial strategy to justify why we need it, and where the passengers will actually come from to use it.

I can't believe anyone on this forum seriously thinks the interconnector is more important that Metro North!

Who are these mythical creatures that think we will be in the upswing by December?

You are also assuming that we will get back to making the money we did from the housing boom. Not a hope.

Gruffalo

murphaph wrote: »

Ireland needs to accept that there is an economy of scale issue here and it's high time we did focus on Dublin. If people have to move, they have to move.

Of course you did not say it:rolleyes: Get a career with FF you liar.

Amtmann

murphaph wrote: »

It's the GAA County Jersey mentality that has is fcuked as much as anything else

This is actually very true. More than anything else in this country, the GAA has perpetuated the parochial, rural, parish-pump mentality. I honestly believe we'd have been better off as a nation if it had never been founded.

*Furet backs slowly out of the thread*

murphaph

Gruffalo wrote: »

Of course you did not say it:rolleyes: Get a career with FF you liar.

Do you know what the word 'IF' means? I won't call you stupid like you called me a liar though.

Gruffalo

murphaph wrote: »

Do you know what the word 'IF' means? I won't call you stupid like you called me a liar though.

What do you think would happen if the country just focused on Dublin? Work it out and stop peddling your braindead ideas. Are you still trying to convince people that Dublin and Munich are the same size?

Gruffalo

Furet wrote: »

This is actually very true. More than anything else in this country, the GAA has perpetuated the parochial, rural, parish-pump mentality. I honestly believe we'd have been better off as a nation if it had never been founded.

*Furet backs slowly out of the thread*

I think you will find that the Church has more to do with Parishs than the GAA. Also take a look at any other country and you will see that people want things in their area, yet they dont have the GAA.

Gruffalo

Since the likes of Murph are always trying to peddle their lies about the counties outside Dublin, I thought I would link to something that they have done for themselves. Cork people have managed to organise to buy a ship and hope to reinstate the Cork - Swansea route this summer.

http://www.bringbacktheswanseacorkferry.com/

Sponge Bob

I find these Dub vs Country arguments are tiresome and circular

The cost of finishing the Cork - Tuam motorway and the benefits of same are roughly proportional to the Interconnector project . There is no yawning gap between them .

Silly outlier projects are being punted in all the regions, eg Luas to Rathfarnham vs WRC Cooloney - Claremorris vs the Gluas .

Why should the dubs have a monopoly on these outlier project eh ??

Metrobest

Gruffalo wrote: »

Who are these mythical creatures that think we will be in the upswing by December?

You are also assuming that we will get back to making the money we did from the housing boom. Not a hope.

Read The Economist...

The idea is the Irish boom happened in 2 phases; the first was due to genuine labour reforms, an influx of foreign capital, and an entrepreneurial structure.

The second phase was fuelled by boom-bust construction activity, most of it seen in the commuter housing in the greater Dublin area, and an influx of cheap labour from Eastern Europe. Shielded by property tax, the government squandered resources on unsustainable social welfare programs, a bloated public sector/social partnership arrangement, and recklessly cut income taxes.

The economy has see-sawed from 'miracle' to 'basket case' in less than 12 months, but internationally, most people still assume Ireland is doing well, depsite all the frenzy of gloom that the media is creating.

Globally, with all the stimulus money being pumped in, the idea is that it will stimulate a recovery. The key for Ireland is to go back to Celtic Tiger phase 1 - a competive and flexibile economy with a sustainable tax base.

That's why the interconnector is a 'phase 2' legacy project that will do nothing for Ireland's internatioanl competitiveness, and put petrol on the fire of cheap low density housing construction that caused most of the mess Ireland is in.

Gruffalo

Metrobest wrote: »

Read The Economist...

The idea is the Irish boom happened in 2 phases; the first was due to genuine labour reforms, an influx of foreign capital, and an entrepreneurial structure.

The second phase was fuelled by boom-bust construction activity, most of it seen in the commuter housing in the greater Dublin area, and an influx of cheap labour from Eastern Europe. Shielded by property tax, the government squandered resources on unsustainable social welfare programs, a bloated public sector/social partnership arrangement, and recklessly cut income taxes.

The economy has see-sawed from 'miracle' to 'basket case' in less than 12 months, but internationally, most people still assume Ireland is doing well, depsite all the frenzy of gloom that the media is creating.

Globally, with all the stimulus money being pumped in, the idea is that it will stimulate a recovery. The key for Ireland is to go back to Celtic Tiger phase 1 - a competive and flexibile economy with a sustainable tax base.

That's why the interconnector is a 'phase 2' legacy project that will do nothing for Ireland's internatioanl competitiveness, and put petrol on the fire of cheap low density housing construction that caused most of the mess Ireland is in.

I will respectfully disagree with you on just about everything.

Zoney

murphaph wrote: »

That's the problem-you all want your parish/village/town/county to have a hospital/university/industrial estate/etc. It's the GAA County Jersey mentality that has is fcuked as much as anything else.

You want one off houses all over the fcuking place and then expect jobs and services to be brought to you. Ridiculous.

Are you or anyone else in Dublin somehow immune to this syndrome? Are not the same forces responsible for the mess in Dublin?

I find your generalisations about "the regions" quite insulting.

Metrobest

Gruffalo wrote: »

I will respectfully disagree with you on just about everything.

I will respectfully suggest that your failure to put forward any valid argument indicates that deep down you know I'm right. Thanks.

Amtmann

Gruffalo wrote: »

I think you will find that the Church has more to do with Parishs than the GAA.

Not so sure about that. The local club forms a bond, a reinforced form of parochial camaraderie if you will, which emphasises an 'us versus them' mentality. Many people from villages and the surrounding countryside seem to want to build one-off houses in their parish in part because of the parochial sense of community that the local club engenders. I'm not sure that any other European country has a cultural phenomenon akin to our GAA, though I'm happy to be corrected on this.

Of course, there are other historical factors at play too: the lack of an industrial revolution in the 1800s for one, has encouraged dispersed, pre-industrial rural settlement patterns to endure to the present day. The lack of an industrial awakening in the nineteenth century meant that when republicanism took root here in the early twentieth century it did so in a rural context ('rural republicanism') which was - and remains - predominantly conservative and inward looking. This of course happened in tandem with the expulsion of the landlord class, and the disintegration of their holdings into much smaller privately-owned farms, which are the source today of all the bothersome one-off houses, which cut away the population density from our cities that would have enabled us to have three or four large population centres, good services, and a proper countryside used for agriculture and recreation. But no. By the way, if we'd had an industrial revolution the church would probably have lost most of its influence a lot earlier than it did. We'd probably also have a far more polarised political system too, and a far stronger left wing. And, to relate this more directly to the thread, we'd almost certainly already have a few metros and interconnectors in place.

Gruffalo

Metrobest wrote: »

I will respectfully suggest that your failure to put forward any valid argument indicates that deep down you know I'm right. Thanks.

All the political parties, the ECB, most recognised economists know that we will not be in an upswing by December, though I hope you are right.

Your suggestion that the world does not know that we are in the sh1t is laughable at best.

Gruffalo

Furet wrote: »

Not so sure about that. The local club forms a bond, a reinforced form of parochial camaraderie if you will, which emphasises an 'us versus them' mentality. Many people from villages and the surrounding countryside seem to want to build one-off houses in their parish in part because of the parochial sense of community that the local club engenders. I'm not sure that any other European country has a cultural phenomenon akin to our GAA, though I'm happy to be corrected on this.

Of course, there are other historical factors at play too: the lack of an industrial revolution in the 1800s for one, has encouraged dispersed, pre-industrial rural settlement patterns to endure to the present day. The lack of an industrial awakening in the nineteenth century meant that when republicanism took root here in the early twentieth century it did so in a rural context ('rural republicanism') which was - and remains - predominantly conservative and inward looking. This of course happened in tandem with the expulsion of the landlord class, and the disintegration of their holdings into much smaller privately-owned farms, which are the source today of all the bothersome one-off houses, which cut away the population density from our cities that would have enabled us to have three or four large population centres, good services, and a proper countryside used for agriculture and recreation. But no. By the way, if we'd had an industrial revolution the church would probably have lost most of its influence a lot earlier than it did. We'd probably also have a far more polarised political system too, and a far stronger left wing. And, to relate this more directly to the thread, we'd almost certainly already have a few metros and interconnectors in place.

I agree a lot more with your second paragraph than your first. I also think that country people build one off houses because they can. Loose planning laws have played a major part.

Sponge Bob

FFS lads , this is really tiresome

state an assumed size for the economy and capex within that willye ??

then assign capex and see where it leads !

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

FFS lads , this is really tiresome

Not nearly as tiresome as the Athlone Bypass threads though!

murphaph

Zoney wrote: »

Are you or anyone else in Dublin somehow immune to this syndrome? Are not the same forces responsible for the mess in Dublin?

I find your generalisations about "the regions" quite insulting.

Oh it's gas. People from all over can take pot shots at Dublin and us thick skinned jackeens just ignore it and don't get insulted.

Dublin planning failure was down to greed in the main. Having said that-even Dublin's least densely populated areas are still capable of being served by a quality ublic transport system if one were to be provided. In addition-most development in recent years has been of a much higher density even in the 'burbs.

Metrobest

Gruffalo wrote: »

All the political parties, the ECB, most recognised economists know that we will not be in an upswing by December, though I hope you are right.

Your suggestion that the world does not know that we are in the sh1t is laughable at best.

These same 'recognised economists'.. political parties.. who thought the property boom could do on forever. Hardly a convicing argument there mate.

Ireland is tiny dot on the map of the world. Believe it or not, most people only know a few things about us - guiness, green and celtic tiger. Ironically, ignorance of the economic situation may be what keeps foreign capital flowing. But if the country freezes infrastructure spending and battens down the hatches for an economic hurricance that never happens, we'll wake up when it's all over to find that other more competitive economies have looted our most important treasure - international investment.

There's a frenzy of doom raging through Ireland at the moment that's un-doing all the economic and cultural gains made in Celtic Tiger phase 1. I totally agree with Furet on everything he said.. but I think that the Celtic Tiger did open up Ireland to the world. I shudder to think what a sustained recession could to the cultural famine of social conservatism that blights the country.

Gruffalo

Metrobest wrote: »

These same 'recognised economists'.. political parties.. who thought the property boom could do on forever. Hardly a convicing argument there mate.

Ireland is tiny dot on the map of the world. Believe it or not, most people only know a few things about us - guiness, green and celtic tiger. Ironically, ignorance of the economic situation may be what keeps foreign capital flowing. But if the country freezes infrastructure spending and battens down the hatches for an economic hurricance that never happens, we'll wake up when it's all over to find that other more competitive economies have looted our most important treasure - international investment.

There's a frenzy of doom raging through Ireland at the moment that's un-doing all the economic and cultural gains made in Celtic Tiger phase 1. I totally agree with Furet on everything he said.. but I think that the Celtic Tiger did open up Ireland to the world. I shudder to think what a sustained recession could to the cultural famine of social conservatism that blights the country.

I do agree that we should keep building our major infrastructure projects,

But the world does know that we are in the Sh1t, and we are not going to be in an upswing by December. However, if we manage our projects well we will be in a better position for it when the downturn ends.

BluntGuy

Metrobest wrote: »

I can't believe anyone on this forum seriously thinks the interconnector is more important that Metro North!

Well, unfortunately for you, you're going to have to start believing, because Interconnector is a lot more important than Metro North. MN delivers a high-speed Airport and North Dublin rail-link. That's great. But does it increase capacity on any of our existing railway infrastructure that serves a much larger number of people? Does it relieve congestion at Connolly? Does it integrate all modes of public transport? No. Only Interconnector will allow that.

Obviously neither will deliver their full benefits without the other, but if we have to pick one, it has to be IC. Building MN still leaves the rest of the commuter rail network in a disorganised, undercapacity jumble. IC allows us to utilise what we already have in a much more efficient manner and deliver the service that people have longed for for ages. The overall IC plan also includes electrification of various commuter lines that allow higher-speed EMUs that produce less pollution and can accelerate and deccelerate quicker than the current DMUs that are used.

I'm not saying Metro North isn't important - it is. But given the current state of finances, it's unlikely both will go ahead unless the government can find some kind of magical PPP cost program that's affordable.

I still worry MN will take priority given the media's tendency to give more coverage to it.

Gruffalo

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well, unfortunately for you, you're going to have to start believing, because Interconnector is a lot more important than Metro North. MN delivers a high-speed Airport and North Dublin rail-link. That's great. But does it increase capacity on any of our existing railway infrastructure that serves a much larger number of people? Does it relieve congestion at Connolly? Does it integrate all modes of public transport? No. Only Interconnector will allow that.

Obviously neither will deliver their full benefits without the other, but if we have to pick one, it has to be IC. Building MN still leaves the rest of the commuter rail network in a disorganised, undercapacity jumble. IC allows us to utilise what we already have in a much more efficient manner and deliver the service that people have longed for for ages. The overall IC plan also includes electrification of various commuter lines that allow higher-speed EMUs that produce less pollution and can accelerate and deccelerate quicker than the current DMUs that are used.

I'm not saying Metro North isn't important - it is. But given the current state of finances, it's unlikely both will go ahead unless the government can find some kind of magical PPP cost program that's affordable.

I still worry MN will take priority given the media's tendency to give more coverage to it.

I totally agree with you. The Goverment are looking at an infrastructure bond so that might allow it all to be done.

marmurr1916

Just noticed this at the bottom of the Irish Times story about cutbacks to the NRA's roads maintenance budget:

In a separate development, Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey has said he is interested in handing over responsibility for administration of the regional and local roads investment programme from his department to the NRA.

The matter is the subject of ongoing discussions between the department and the NRA.

That would be great if it happened. The NRA could finally get uniform standards for signage, road markings etc, implemented on regional and local roads.

BluntGuy

marmurr1916 wrote: »

That would be great if it happened. The NRA could finally get uniform standards for signage, road markings etc, implemented on regional and local roads.

Well, the NRA's track record on national routes isn't exactly free from blemishes. But I can certainly see them making much better use of funding than the local councils - in particular making sure that signage is changed on detrunked stretches following motorway redesignations/openings.

Zoney

It would also get rid of the varying standards between councils (of course this means the average/NRA would possibly be worse than some of the better councils).

Presumably the NRA would inflate somewhat in scale though? (and I wouldn't expect any corresponding scaling down in dept or cocos).