Now it's over, where did they go wrong and right?

djk1000

Bit of a free debate on the rights and wrongs of the budget, anyone??

dcr22B

Personally, I can't believe that he didn't touch VAT to try and stimulate some consumer confidence.

I'll be continuing to head North every 4 weeks for my big shop so!

Orion

It's a crap budget. It is not going to solve any problems and may even make things worse. He admitted a few days ago that raising VAT was a mistake but he hasn't rectified it. He didn't touch petrol/alcohol as people would buy up North but he's taken an extra 3% off gross income so there's less money to spend anywhere.

When is this idiot going to learn that you cannot tax your way out of recession? He needed to throw a bone to encourage people to spend and improve consumer confidence. He's done the opposite.

Resi12

Who is the guy speaking now? And why isn't he where Brian Cowen is???

Fromvert

ok, i would be in favour of some sort of college fees being introduced. Am a student now and will be for the next two years.

Xavi, how did the points system discriminate against you? The way I see it, study, get the points you need and get in your chosen course.

ixoy

They didn't do enough - that's my immediate reaction. Unless I've missed something, I'm only losing 1% more of my wage - I should be losing more (regardless of whether or not I want to).

Where are the spending cuts as well? Do they honestly think the 50-year old retirement for the civil service is enough? It seems remarkably short sighted. We need to reduce our costs.

Villain

They totally bottled it, the cuts were not deep enough and the increases not high enough, 3.3bn is not half enough.

They have put off the pain and by the time it comes the cuts needed then will be huge

Tom65

Can some tell me where they'll get the extra revenue? It seems to me it's just small cuts in most places. Income levies aside, is there anything that substantive?

mike65

It all came in a rush but my feeling is that there is far greater emphisis on taxing than cutting thus it appears the slump will be extended rather than shortened.

jos28

Resi12 wrote: »

Who is the guy speaking now? And why isn't he where Brian Cowen is???

Best post of the day

Cyrus

this has put the final nail in their coffin, instead of addressing the issues they just tried tax the bejaysus out of everything

vat needed to decrease to stimulate growth, social welfare cut 15%, civil service trimmed, and it all still needs to happen

fuppin idiots

Orion

ixoy wrote: »

They didn't do enough - that's my immediate reaction. Unless I've missed something, I'm only losing 1% more of my wage - I should be losing more (regardless of whether or not I want to)..

3% - 1% income levy + 2% health levy - both charged on gross income.

Rb

mike65 wrote: »

It all came in a rush but my feeling is that there is far greater emphisis on taxing than cutting thus it appears the slump will be extended rather than shortened.

Indeed.

Today has merely solified the opinions of those who believe this government is not fit to run this country.

djk1000

Early retirement at 50 for civil servants, if they want it. Am I missing something or do they get a defined benefit pension for longer and a tax free lump sum to start? Don't mean to get into the rights and wrongs of it, but it's not cashflow positive, it will cost more in the short term and long term, not less.

jos28

Stealing Christmas from pensioners could be his biggest mistake. Seriously bad move

puglover

Ridiculous.

No cut on VAT.

Increased taxes for those in employment + you're fecked altogether if work and have kids.

Should've have been much more cuts to expenditure.

Would do them no harm to employ a couple of qualified Economists for the next budget.

John mac

just waiting to hit us with property tax, and Carbon tax (whatever form that will take) in Dec,

he did mention a lot of things that will have to be done,

so he could tell us in December we were warned.

Alcatel

It was a small minded budget, and they did small minded things. That's likely the idea, set us up for a major hit and then let us down gently, real spindoctor stuff. They'll run another budget in a few months.

That's if they're smart and are planning this well. They could be stupid and this could be a prelude to an election when it falls down. But I'm reluctant to cry wolf.

Nody

Missing a great oppertunity to actually lead and do some very much needed reforms and cust cutting. With 30 Bil each in Social welfare and Social Insurance alone there could have been some noticable cost savings and ram it down the unions throat.

Over all it is a budget that I'd expect to have seen in October when things started to look bad, not now when things have really gone bad.

Peyton Manning

jos28 wrote: »

Stealing Christmas from pensioners could be his biggest mistake. Seriously bad move

Eh, what!?

Villain

John mac wrote: »

just waiting to hit us with property tax, and Carbon tax (whatever form that will take) in Dec,

he did mention a lot of things that will have to be done,

so he could tell us in December we were warned.

December could well be too late though, we needed the pain now.

Spud83

The worst part is that he kept warning that it will be worse in Decembers budget and people will be paying more tax then. Way to improve consumer confidence and get people spending again.

Everybody will be hoarding every cent they have now meaning a evening greater gap in the public finances due to decreased tax income.

djk1000

Does the end to social welfare Christmas bonus include state pensioners??

A-Trak

ixoy wrote: »

They didn't do enough - that's my immediate reaction. Unless I've missed something, I'm only losing 1% more of my wage - I should be losing more (regardless of whether or not I want to).

Where are the spending cuts as well? Do they honestly think the 50-year old retirement for the civil service is enough? It seems remarkably short sighted. We need to reduce our costs.

Totally agree with this. Doesn't give me any confidence at all.
Reckon we'll be in a worse position come December:(

li@mo

MINI BUDGET didnt turn out quite as good as I'd imagined...............

Resi12

Lions' lead by Donkey's!!!

Ahahahahaha best quote EVER!

Why is it that everyone but FF are making sense?
I am appauled that people voted them in I really and truly am.

damoz

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

The worst part is that he kept warning that it will be worse in Decembers budget and people will be paying more tax then. Way to improve consumer confidence and get people spending again.

Everybody will be hoarding every cent they have now meaning a evening greater gap in the public finances due to decreased tax income.

+1

I didnt like the tone of the speech - the words "downward sprial" were even mentioned. Talk about instilling confidence internationally... wach the ISEQ for the next week.

Alcatel

The VAT thing is a killer. Read the official document, only mention of VAT is a little thing for car sales. F*** the rest of ye, I suppose is the message.

This is either complete genius, or there's an election coming.

Thumpette

Didnt affect me too much at all- think im losing about 25 euros a month.

Was happy at first but thinking about it all this means is that they didnt man up and make the unpopular decisions.

Gurgle

Who got hammered:
Middle income PAYE workers with kids.

What didn't get touched:
section 23 property
2nd 'homes'
artists
horse breeders
pension contributions

Who is getting rewarded:
building developers
bankers

Pretty much as expected then.

jim o doom

removing the teachers pensions for the ministers, removing long service payments and lowering TD expenses were good.. but that lowering should have been about 40% instead of 10%.

Also "reviewing" TDs salaries to bring them in line with their euro counterparts is a smart move as well - the above obviously not saving much over all, but at least showing the scum in power are willing to take a bit of a hit as well..

undecided about the rest - I don't smoke tobacco, but I think raising the cusom excise on cigarettes is retarded, plenty of my friends can get their illegal import cheapo cigaretts, or anyone doing their shopping northwards can acquire cheap smokes, so thats pointless..

and nothing whatsoever to stimulate growth or increase jobs. smart move.

Xavi6

Fromvert wrote: »

ok, i would be in favour of some sort of college fees being introduced. Am a student now and will be for the next two years.

Xavi, how did the points system discriminate against you? The way I see it, study, get the points you need and get in your chosen course.

I've posted my circumstances here to avoid going OT again.

FrankGrimes

Before this budget 38% of earners paid no income tax (though some of those paid 1% income tax levy). After this budget those that earn over €15k but under the income tax threshold will now pay 2% income tax levy and no other income tax.

I think most medium to high earners are prepared to pay their fair share of income tax (indeed 50% of all income tax is paid by the top 6% of earners), but I just don't see why the burden should not be spread a bit more evenly so that those at the lower end pay just a little bit more. Fully agree with keeping people learning below €15k out of the tax base, but I really thought they needed to broaden the tax base in this budget and I think they have taken the easy approach here to avoid the political trouble this would cause for them.

An upper middle class family with 2 kids and with one earner in a senior managerial position earning around €80k have been particularly harshly hit and the relatively light impact on low earners will make that couple feel pretty hard done by.

eoinbn

A VAT cut would of done nothing. The 2.5% cut in britain has been viewed as an error that has done nothing but reduce the tax take. People would still of gone north, especially when you consider that many foods are taxed at a lower rate, or even at 0% for core foods.

I'll tell you where they went wrong, letting this clown of a minister come up with another farce of a budget :mad:

A few weeks back he went on TV saying that his previous increase on VAT was a mistake, and now today he does not lower VAT which in my opinion is badly needed to stimulate the economy and get people back here spending.

I'm sick of this government and it's about time a general election was called for.

Het-Field

No measures on competitiveness, nothing to deal with the unemployment crisis (save for half assed back to education schemes, which will have no benefit, if the crisis continues to excacerbate).

VAT needed to be cut. If it couldnt then FF have damed itself to a period of cross border shopping, and removal of revenue. Is it an oversight, or was it a conscious decision.

No cuts in quangos, and more committes will be set up to deal with the proposed ajustments.

The middle income earners got screwed again.

Attempts to regain a stranglehold on the economy through taxation.

I think an election is inevitable. Cowen and Lenihan are the worst in the business.

AntiRip

hellboy99 wrote: »

I'll tell you where they went wrong, letting this clown of a minister come up with another farce of a budget :mad:

A few weeks back he went on TV saying that his previous increase on VAT was a mistake, and now today he does not lower VAT which in my opinion is badly needed to stimulate the economy and get people back here spending.

I'm sick of this government and it's about time a general election was called for.

Totally agree with you here. Take money out of people's pockets and no change to VAT to stimulate the economy! It was like 6 months ago, total anti-climax..

shandsaker1982

Im not a massive greeny by any means but what got to me...besides the things that were needed was the 5c on diesel and petrol wasnt touched. i know petrol is more expensive but diesel is more eco friendly and after just buying a diesel car in IRELAND (NOT THE NORTH TO SUPPORT IRISH WORK) it feels like a big kick in the you know whats. Why bother if eventually you dont gain! I feel for the people who have no jobs and i suppose there are bigger issues. This finance bloke doesnt know his ass from his elbow! :mad:

super_furry

As far as I can see, a single person on €45,000 a year will only be €650 a year worse off - or €12.50 a week. I expected a much more savage cut and think that harder measure were and still are, needed.

rose_2

i think the big question of the day is ...when can we replace these muppets??although really, who else will be able to do it right??!:mad:

mike65

eoinbn wrote: »

A VAT cut would of done nothing. The 2.5% cut in britain has been viewed as an error that has done nothing but reduce the tax take. People would still of gone north, especially when you consider that many foods are taxed at a lower rate, or even at 0% for core foods.

Food is zero rated in both jurastictions.

knipex

super_furry wrote: »

As far as I can see, a single person on €45,000 a year will only be €650 a year worse off - or €12.50 a week. I expected a much more savage cut and think that harder measure were and still are, needed.

No 1% Income levy increase or €450 per year.

2% Health levy or €900 per year.

Total €1350 or €112.50 a month or €25.96 a week

johnnyskeleton

Bit of a mixed message - on the one hand stop saving (increased dirt) and go out and spend on borrowed money (bank recap) but at the same time, pay higher taxes to support unsustainable spending.

It's kinda hard to say where they have gone wrong in this budget, it's just the culimination of all the bad decisions made in the last 10 years (in particular the bank guarantee) and a complete failure to acknowledge how the country is going to survive the next few years.

themadchef

Im a PAYE worker and I have 4 kids, the oldest doesnt turn five til the end of this month.

One word.. OUCH

super_furry

knipex wrote: »

No 1% Income levy increase or €450 per year.

2% Health levy or €900 per year.

Total €1350 or €112.50 a month or €25.96 a week

Ah thanks. Thought I was missing something with the health levy alright.

jimmmy

the govt missed the opportunity of cutting public sector pay back to realistic, sustainable levels

Number one

This is going to encourage people (who don't necessarily have to) to emigrate, further damaging the economy. Especially skilled people that are needed to maintain this nation.

The standard of living on this country is sh1t enough already. Now they're wiping their ar5es with us.

RonMexico

Cut the dole and clamp down on fraud (of all kinds)

Cut VAT

Implement work schemes for long term dole spongers.

heno55

shandsaker1982 wrote: »

Im not a massive greeny by any means but what got to me...besides the things that were needed was the 5c on diesel and petrol wasnt touched. i know petrol is more expensive but diesel is more eco friendly and after just buying a diesel car in IRELAND (NOT THE NORTH TO SUPPORT IRISH WORK) it feels like a big kick in the you know whats. Why bother if eventually you dont gain! I feel for the people who have no jobs and i suppose there are bigger issues. This finance bloke doesnt know his ass from his elbow! :mad:

yeah he could easily have put up to 30 cents on the diesel,as a trucker i was paying 145c last year and the country didnt grind to a halt so there was scope for more of an increase but he bottled it

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

the govt missed the opportunity of cutting public sector pay back to realistic, sustainable levels

The early retirement package could cause a stampede of the most experienced PS workers.

From the few details given in the speech, the idea seems to be that those aged 50+ can either leave on half pay or be taxed and levied 60% on the other half of their income while at the same time, taking on the work of their departed colleagues and look forward to no prospect of promotion for their extra responsibility.

There's were also veiled hints that any remaining staff will would be expected to move round the country as needed (to fill decentralised offices, no doubt).

That should be enough to motivate people to leave.

It will get PS pay bill down (a little bit, taking account of the loss of the tax, PRSI and levies) and open up lots of outsourcing and contracting opportunities.

Bulmers

FrankGrimes wrote: »

An upper middle class family with 2 kids and with one earner in a senior managerial position earning around €80k have been particularly harshly hit and the relatively light impact on low earners will make that couple feel pretty hard done by.

one of them,down 3.5k, wife down 1.8k..he said it was the higher earners he was going to target, that's what he done..

not complaining too much though, glad to have a job for now to be honest and i just hope they have done all they really need to start turning things around..

if i hear in 2/3 months time there is another shortfall, they have to go and they should go quietly and not have to be asked..