Bike fit - continued from Images of Beauty thread

FrankGrimes

I thought it better to start a new thread on this rather than keep bringing the Post Images of Beauty thread off topic.

So I posted a photo of my bike and it's been ripped to shreds for several reasons, mostly due to my terrible setup (and the sheer brilliance of the white tyres!) - mostly on this page.

Between tips from niceonetom (he of the mad skillz I'm still struggling to comprehend) and a link to this site in a PM from Lumen, I've a few things to try in terms of height and fore/aft of the saddle.

I'll also drop into CSS and try out a few stems - if I bring my torque wrench is a simple job of changing the stem out on the spot to take it for a quick test ride? Will they be ok with that?

Bottom line is I'll probably end up with a changed saddle position and a shorter stem and that will allow me to tilt the bars down to where they should be. Is that the fundamentals taken care of or is there something else I should be aware of?

The heart is breaking due to the outlay on it, but yeh deep down I'm thinking I may have to cut my losses with the Brooks and get another saddle. The Swallow is the titanium one and was €220 new and is in excellent condition and not even properly broken in. Maybe I'll stick up an ad and see what I might get for it.

This Selle Italia does look mighty tempting with its central cut out and extra padding my nether regions are lusting after it. Got the tip on the Selle Italia from Lumen - anyone else used one?

TinyExplosions

The Specialized Toupe is a popular saddle that's supposed to be comfy (I think niceonetom has one), and I use a Fizik Arione CX which I find very comfortable

Lumen

Measure your sit bones.

From linky...

People come in all shapes and sizes but the important parts to fit onto a bicycle seat are your sit bones (Ischium). The rear wide part of the bike seat must be wide enough to comfortably and easily accommodate your sit bones with at least 2cm spare on each side. Measurements of adult sit bone separation that I have taken range from 10cm to 14cm centres. For the widest case this requires a seat of some 18–20cm wide (they do exist).

To measure your sit bone separations use a hard surfaced chair topped by a sheet of white paper and a sheet of carbon paper, carbon side to the white paper. Sit on the chair only with your sit bones and sit heavily. This will leave a faint imprint of your sit bones on the paper. Mark the centres of your sit bone marks and measure the separation. You will need a seat with the main sitting area at least 4cm wider than your sit bones. Anything narrower will act a wedge separating your sit bones and causing pain. A seat that is too narrow will never be comfortable.

I've also heard of this done using memory foam.

DirkVoodoo

Also, slight side note, don't loosen the bolts with your torque wrench, bring a regular allen wrench too.

Your bike setup was quite mad alright, I think the main thing was that the bars being tilted up like that can be dangerous if you try to go onto the drops. You can move the levers around on the bars to give you a better "on the hoods" position without compromising your drop position (bar the change in lever reach from the drops).

EDIT: I have a fizik Aliante, great saddle, lots of different positions due to the flared back, so you can sit back on the climbs without having to crush your special bits on the flat.

blorg

Yes, unfortunately Brooks are not for everyone.

Your seatpost has a lot of layback (looks like 25mm), I replaced my own 20mm layback seatpost with one having 5mm to get my saddle forward.

The general recommendation however is to fix your saddle position first and vary reach by changing the stem. I think I just happen to get on well with a relatively forward position.

Regarding stems, 110mm to 90mm is a big difference, even going to 100mm would be noticable.

What CSS told you about not going below 90mm is commonly accepted as being right. Generally shorter stems are used on non-road bikes.

Before you do anything more, it might be better to get a professional bike fit and then make your purchases based on that- might be cheaper in the long run.

short circuit

TinyExplosions wrote: »

The Specialized Toupe is a popular saddle that's supposed to be comfy (I think niceonetom has one), and I use a Fizik Arione CX which I find very comfortable

+1 on the Specialized Toupe ...

Charge Spoon might be a cheaper alternative ... and gets good reviews. Available on wiggle

blorg

Bars also come in a wide variety of shapes, the ones that came on my Litespeed and the original ones from my Bowery are quite flat on top even with the bottom parallel with the ground:



Most bars however drop down a bit to the brake levers if you try to keep the bottom sort of parallel (including the ones I replaced on the Bowery.)



You would be welcome to try my original Bowery bars BTW, I replaced them mainly as I found them too short on the bottom after they came out of the Ergo/straight bit, and thought the Ergo bit was at too much of an angle.

Thinking about it the defining way I tend to set my bars is to get the ergo/straight bit section the angle I want and this is right for me when the bottom is parallel with the ground (on most ergo bars- not however the ones that came with the Bowery, didn't really love the shape of the ones that came with the Focus either, replaced with Bontrager ones.) Might all be different with traditional rounded bars, I should probably give them a go.

rottenhat

FrankGrimes wrote: »

The heart is breaking due to the outlay on it, but yeh deep down I'm thinking I may have to cut my losses with the Brooks and get another saddle. The Swallow is the titanium one and was €220 new and is in excellent condition and not even properly broken in. Maybe I'll stick up an ad and see what I might get for it.

If you decide to do that, give me shout and I'll make you an offer on it - I've been wanting to try a Swallow for a while and I feel slightly guilty about having been one of the people urging you to give a Brooks a shot.

FrankGrimes

Thanks for all the tips folks. I'll spend a bit of time reading up on bike fittings and focus on getting saddle position right. It seems with the 25mm layback on my seatpost I'm probably too far back, but I'll push the saddle forward on the rails and then do one of the fitting tests to see if that offsets it enough.

I'll also look to figure out what size saddle I need.....now where does one find carbon paper in this day and age, or a handily sized offcut of memory foam for that matter?

I'll start on the bars by tilting them a bit downwards and seeing how I get on with that. Thanks blorg for the option of testing out those bars though I agree I need to close out on other variables first. Dirk's point that the shifters can be moved up the bars without affecting the bar positioning is definitely worth investigating.

If I was to go for a professional bike fit (little uncertain about this), where in south Dublin would be good to go and what's the ballpark price? Actually, think Lumen mentioned IrishFit do it, though if someplace like Cycle Superstore do it welll and have the parts (stems) in stock to try out on the spot, that might be a better bet.

DirkVoodoo

I think moving them requires re-taping the bars, no better time to learn how to do it I guess!

rottenhat

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I think moving them requires re-taping the bars, no better time to learn how to do it I guess!

For which reason it is wise not to re-tape the bars until you're quite satisfied with the position you have the levers in.

Raam

FrankGrimes wrote: »

It seems with the 25mm layback on my seatpost I'm probably too far back, but I'll push the saddle forward on the rails and then do one of the fitting tests to see if that offsets it enough.

If you are shifting that seatpost, I might be interested. Been keeping an eye out for one with a bit of setback.

Lumen

I have Blorg's old 5mm setback seatpost in 31.6mm size (IIRC) spare if you want to experiment more with saddle position.

There are probably enough hand positions on the bars that you can get an idea of stem position changes without actually fitting a new stem, if that makes sense.

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

I have Blorg's old 5mm setback seatpost in 31.6mm size (IIRC) spare if you want to experiment more with saddle position.

No, I sold you the bike with the stock post, 20mm setback, it was the one I took out to replace with the 5mm as I wanted to move the saddle forward 20mm layback is the most common standard with a seatpost BTW, just I think the FSA ones tend to have more.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

No, I sold you the bike with the stock post, 20mm setback, it was the one I took out to replace with the 5mm as I wanted to move the saddle forward 20mm layback is the most common standard with a seatpost BTW, just I think the FSA ones tend to have more.

So my new crabon fibré 20mm seatpost is exactly the same. That's funny.

Just as well I saved 60g.

niceonetom

short circuit wrote: »

+1 on the Specialized Toupe ...

Charge Spoon might be a cheaper alternative ... and gets good reviews. Available on wiggle

I have both of those - the toupe on my road bike, and the spoon on my fixie (both white of course, in accordance with our ways).

The toupe is a bloody great saddle, and I highly recommend it (though the selle italia with the cut out looks quite similar). Very comfortable (with proper shorts) and also very light. I've only done one longish spin on the spoon so far, it's definitely nowhere near as good as the spesh, but better than most and usable in jeans too, which matters.

Frank - if you want the sit bones measured they have a memory gel/foam thing in cycleways that does it. You sit on it for a minute or so and measure the distance between the divots left by your arse.

Murph100

Frank,


I was about to buy that Selle Italia you linked but its fairly heavy, then I found out that Dave Kane Cycles has some of the Prologo range as demos, which are really nice and seem very light.

You pay for the saddles up front, try them out for a week or so, send back the demos, and they refund your card and charge you for the new one you want.

I've got a Nago PAS and a Scratch on the way, so it will be interesting to see how they compare to my Selle Italia Filante.

The Lads at Slane Cycles have a load of Fizik demo saddles, but no Selle Italia yet.

zzzzzzzz

Murph100 wrote: »

Frank,


I was about to buy that Selle Italia you linked but its fairly heavy, then I found out that Dave Kane Cycles has some of the Prologo range as demos, which are really nice and seem very light.

You pay for the saddles up front, try them out for a week or so, send back the demos, and they refund your card and charge you for the new one you want.

I've got a Nago PAS and a Scratch on the way, so it will be interesting to see how they compare to my Selle Italia Filante.

The Lads at Slane Cycles have a load of Fizik demo saddles, but no Selle Italia yet.

That's deadly - you'd think all online retailers would operate a similar system.

Murph100

I guess its very open to abuse, the lads at Slane Cycles said you wouldn't believe the number of saddles that are not handed back, even though their demos are an awful orange colour so as not to be on anyones wishlist.

zzzzzzzz

Murph100 wrote: »

I guess its very open to abuse, the lads at Slane Cycles said you wouldn't believe the number of saddles that are not handed back, even though their demos are an awful orange colour so as not to be on anyones wishlist.

Surely it doesn't matter though - they've paid for the saddle, no?

Murph100

I think the trouble is if they run out of demo saddles ( from the distributer ), they cant continue the demo service, as giving out their own new saddles in stock is not an option, and I think those 'orange' specials initially required only a small deposit and not the full whack.

Lumen

I've just ordered this on DVD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wd9YpU028c

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

I've just ordered this on DVD.

You either have bottomless pockets or limitless enthusiasm! Stop buying things, you're making me wanna go on to CRC and see what I can spend what little money the government has left me with.

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

You either have bottomless pockets or limitless enthusiasm! Stop buying things, you're making me wanna go on to CRC and see what I can spend what little money the government has left me with.

Anything related to training, bike fit or physio gets special exemption in my personal budget, as it's the cheapest way of going faster.

I'm trying to sell at least one bike, if that helps.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

Anything related to training, bike fit or physio gets special exemption in my personal budget, as it's the cheapest way of going faster.

I'm trying to sell at least one bike, if that helps.

Hard graft comes for free... well, almost

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

Hard graft comes for free... well, almost

I'm working on my dribbling.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

I'm working on my dribbling.

It took 3 years of hard to work to get to the level where I don't get it all over my bibshorts.

rottenhat

Raam wrote: »

It took 3 years of hard to work to get to the level where I don't get it all over my bibshorts.

maybe you need a different kind of bib?

DirkVoodoo

That was a class video Lumen, will you let me know what he says about neck pain. I think my neck gets sore from poor flexibility, but it might also be genetic (cranium massivus!).

scottreynolds

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

That was a class video Lumen, will you let me know what he says about neck pain. I think my neck gets sore from poor flexibility, but it might also be genetic (cranium massivus!).

Ah Dirk............ bike fitting doesn't cover Hair styles.

AstraMonti

scottreynolds wrote: »

Ah Dirk............ bike fitting doesn't cover Hair styles.

I am just so curious to see how long will this joke continue to go on

DirkVoodoo

Ha! I don't think I will ever live it down.

Ghost Rider

I did a bit of "research" (i.e. Web browsing) on this subject and found no such consensus. Some say a shorter stem makes the handling twitchier; others say that is largely compensated-for by the fact that your weight is distributed differently with a shorter stem. Others say that even if it does become a bit twitchier, you can simply adapt.

If I found any consensus at all on the subject, it seemed to be that whatever works for you, works for you. I swapped my 110mm stem for a 75mm and, yes, it does indeed make a big difference: it's much more comfortable!

blorg wrote: »

Regarding stems, 110mm to 90mm is a big difference, even going to 100mm would be noticable.

What CSS told you about not going below 90mm is commonly accepted as being right. Generally shorter stems are used on non-road bikes.

Murph100

Hey Lumen,


Where did you manage to order that DVD from ?

Anywhere closer than Oz ?

Lumen

Murph100 wrote: »

Where did you manage to order that DVD from ? . Anywhere closer than Oz ?

I looked around for a bit, then just ordered it from Oz.

Cost 11 of those funny upside down eurodollarpounds for shipping (I bought Joe Friel's bible at the same time, since shipping was per-order).

rottenhat

Ghost Rider wrote: »

I did a bit of "research" (i.e. Web browsing) on this subject and found no such consensus. Some say a shorter stem makes the handling twitchier; others say that is largely compensated-for by the fact that your weight is distributed differently with a shorter stem. Others say that even if it does become a bit twitchier, you can simply adapt.

If I found any consensus at all on the subject, it seemed to be that whatever works for you, works for you. I swapped my 110mm stem for a 75mm and, yes, it does indeed make a big difference: it's much more comfortable!

yes, I thought that was a bit odd when I first read it - I don't think the stem on either of my bikes is longer than 70mm and I've never noticed them being particularly twitchy. relatively speaking, I have long legs and a short torso so I would feel quite stretched out with a 100mm stem - when I had a frame made to measure it came out with a 58.5cm downtube and a 56cm top tube. but it's a bit hard to throw these figures around meaningfully since the effective extension of the stem is dependent on the amount of rise etc.

I did read an interview with a framebuilder a while ago where he said that if he saw a picture of one of his frames built up and the saddle wasn't dead center on the rails, he felt that he hadn't done a good job. my inclination has always been to set the saddle like that and then figure out where the bars need to be from there.

blorg

Ghost Rider wrote: »

I did a bit of "research" (i.e. Web browsing) on this subject and found no such consensus. ... If I found any consensus at all on the subject, it seemed to be that whatever works for you, works for you. I swapped my 110mm stem for a 75mm and, yes, it does indeed make a big difference: it's much more comfortable!

I guess I was taking "consensus" from the fact that the majority of road stems are not made under 90mm. 90-130mm is the normal range. There are exceptions but they are outliers. (e.g. Pro PLT stem available in 50-140mm, had this stem on my Focus, it is a nice one.)

Also, a 20mm shrink is very significant.

Murph100

Yeah, I found it on Cycling weekly's online shop, but it only lets me select 'UK Mainland' for address. Their email bounces back and the phone goes to voicemail, so maybe not in action anymore.


BTW there is a ton of good info in Steve Hoggs site

http://www.cyclefitcentre.com/further%20reading.htm

Lumen wrote: »

I looked around for a bit, then just ordered it from Oz.

Cost 11 of those funny upside down eurodollarpounds for shipping (I bought Joe Friel's bible at the same time, since shipping was per-order).

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Also, a 20mm shrink is very significant.

Indeed. The difference in horizontal top tube length between my 54cm Kinesis and 58cm Focus is only 23mm.

This suggests that you should pick a frame size based on the required handlebar drop rather than reach, since you can fix the reach with saddle positioning and stem choice.

FrankGrimes

Hmmmm, who would've thunk something like slapping the right saddle and stem on a bike could get so complimicated, eh?

I'm sale agreed with rottenhat on my Brooks Swallow so now it's down to figuring out my saddle next with stem to follow afterwards. I reckon it's down to either something like this Selle Italia I posted earlier or the Specialized Toupe that does get a lot of good comments. I do like the idea of the extra padding on the Selle Italia and amn't too concerned about the weight.

I like the idea of getting the sit bones measured properly but Cycleways do seem to be a good bit pricier than the online retailers so I'd be paying a premium for getting that measurement. I'm trying to figure out how to measure them myself and best I can think of is to sit on the edge of the bath with a sheet of paper underneath and then mark as close to the centre of each bone as I can onto the paper and then measure that distance. Should get me close enough. Will try do that tonight.

Like the idea of testing out the Prologo saddles for a week but it just might end up too much hassle - would miss a day due to the missed delivery while I'm at work (can't get deliveries to work) and then have to get out of work to get to the post office which is tricky for me etc.

Don't think I'll fork out on a professional fitting as I don't really merit it, will read the online advice on fitting and then test out a few stems in Cycle Superstore, starting with a 90mm and take it from there.

Watched that video - very interesting stuff, I was defo putting too much weight on my hands and not enough on the saddle.

blorg

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Don't think I'll fork out on a professional fitting as I don't really merit it, will read the online advice on fitting and then test out a few stems in Cycle Superstore, starting with a 90mm and take it from there.

Fitting is not just for racing cyclists, it is for anyone who wants to be comfortable on their bike. I have heard very good things from touring cyclists etc. as to the benefit. When I first looked into it, it was in this capacity, and the primary goal was increased comfort, not out and out performance.

Consider what a fitting costs, and how much you might otherwise spend on components before you get something right?

Having said that I have not yet had a fit myself and have relied instead on previous bike measurements and shunting things around I _will_ probably have one this year I reckon. Before I buy any more bikes.

FrankGrimes

blorg wrote: »

Consider what a fitting costs, and how much you might otherwise spend on components before you get something right?

Yeh good point. Think I'll give Cycleways and Cycle Superstore a call and see if they do fittings and what they charge and make a decision based on that.

Am now leaning towards getting the Specialized Toupe for the saddle and just get it in Cycleways as that way I'd be more likely to get the right fit.

Murph100

Cyclesuperstore charge €69 for their bike fit service. I had it done about 2 months ago. Like someone else here said, who also had it done, it gives you a theoretically ideal bike setup, based on its system and your measurements, which is very useful starting point, however it wont necessarily result in your 'perfect bike fit', that may still take quite a bit of tweaking afterwards.

Your age, flexibilty, how bollixed your back and neck are after driving and computers, all these have a huge impact on your bike fit, and none of these 'pop in yer measurements' fitting systems take any of that into consideration.

I reckon all the fancy computerised fitting 'systems' out there still cant beat a good pro bike fitter, of course the difficulty with that is trying to find one.

Anyone know of some pro bike fitting guru in Ireland ?

Lumen

Paul Tansey has been mentioned a few times on boards.

(ignore the RIP links, that's a different Paul Tansey)

Murph100

Cheers Lumen, but isn't he more of a Chiropractor than a bike fitter ?

Lumen

Interesting.

Edit: sorry, that's a bit triathlon/TT specific.

FrankGrimes

That is pretty interesting alright Lumen, will try get a chance to read through it.

I'm booked in for a bike fit with a sound guy called Ash in Cycleways on Friday. Seems very knowledgeable; not sure of his credentials or if you'd call him a 'pro bike fitter' but certainly sounds like he knows enough to help me with my setup. Interesting to hear him say he'd look at everything from my foot arches up.

He'll give me a computer reading of my current setup just in case I want to go back to it if any changes don't work out. Given the agony I was in last Sunday on the bike, I doubt I'll be doing that though.

€50 for a session of up to 2 hours (depending on number of things that need to be changed) and a few quid off any gear I buy there sounds very reasonable to me.

dave2pvd

Murph100 wrote: »

Cheers Lumen, but isn't he more of a Chiropractor than a bike fitter ?

Ah, now that's an advantage. Along with the fact that Paul is a very smart guy who has been racing and wrenching for years.

I have been fitted by a doctor who has a sports medicine specialty. Probably a bit more qualified than your typical bike shop employee His input was invaluable when it came to recognising biomechanical anomalies and solving them (as much as possible).

That article referenced in the first post is interesting. I dare say it is touring-focused though. There's little emphasis on maximum power transfer and plenty of focus on comfort. Which is fine, but perhaps not necessarily for racers. I would argue that the hands off the bars and don't fall forward trick is a non-runner for most racers. Especially if you have along torso:short legs. And a big head.

lukester

dave2pvd wrote: »

Ah, now that's an advantage. Along with the fact that Paul is a very smart guy who has been racing and wrenching for years.
.

Is Paul Tansey a physiotherapist or physical therapist, and is there a difference? Have heard only good things about him here, and was considering seeing him but Dundrum is a bit out of the way, and Pearse St physio is around the corner. May pay him a visit in the future.

dave2pvd

I don't know what his qualification is. But he is located right on the LUAS line - just in case you'd prefer to not cycle there. Seeing as your fit is less than optimal

lukester

dave2pvd wrote: »

I don't know what his qualification is. But he is located right on the LUAS line - just in case you'd prefer to not cycle there. Seeing as your fit is less than optimal

Cycling there is not an issue, and fit is fine, but getting there from town during work hours is an issue.