Budget April 7th

In my opinion

What will happen in budget tomorrow. I think Mullingar, Clonmel, Tralee, Castlebar and Wexford are all sure to close but maybe not to be closed within 12 months. No space anywhere for the Mullingar people as Athlone is full and Longford is closed.

RDF may go tomorrow or if not gone definitely the victim of a major change namely outposts to close at least. Must be nearly 400 Cadre out there, that's a full Bn in any ones book.

Minister for Defence has to find money for the PDF set up and realistically he has yet to prove an interest in the reserve.

Observations please

Skyhawk1990

Major cutbacks that will cripple the defence forces further. Leading to loss of morale and a situation that will probably mirror that of the 1980's.

Please don't mention disbanding of the RDF I'm in enough of a bad mood with the suspension of recruitment.:(:(

Evd-Burner

Are they even able to just disband the RDF?

eroo

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Are they even able to just disband the RDF?

Even though I'm a member of the RDF, I could see why the Govt would implement a phased disbandment of the RDF. It's a drain on finances and equipment for PDF, and it's not going to be needed.

Evd-Burner

Why dont they just start to use the RDF for specific tasks??? Would make a bit more sense...

minidazzler

eroo wrote: »

Even though I'm a member of the RDF, I could see why the Govt would implement a phased disbandment of the RDF. It's a drain on finances and equipment for PDF, and it's not going to be needed.

Yup, Phase 1, Recruitment and Promotion Embargo. Until 2011. http:/www.1bderdf.com

Phase 2, No real need for one. Without a supply of fresh Blood and NCO's who have done real courses we are screwed.

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Why dont they just start to use the RDF for specific tasks??? Would make a bit more sense...

Because the DoD are kinda dumb like that.



I have more on this subject however I can't post right now, So will throw it up later.

RIP RDF 2005 - 2009ish.

Denerick

Why don't they just scrap the full time army, keep a nominal navy and air force, a highly trained special forces unit and bomb squad and have the rest as reserves? There really is little need for 7,000 odd Irish troops.

petergfiffin

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Why dont they just start to use the RDF for specific tasks??? Would make a bit more sense...

And what tasks would you assign to the RDF apart from ceremonial? The big advantage with the PDF is they can be called on when required and don't have to make arrangements with employers etc. Regardless of how advanced an RDF we could develop unless you are going to have a "standing reserve" you lose this ability.

Denerick wrote: »

...keep a nominal navy and air force...

Would you reduce the Naval Service and Air Corps even further, if so why bother even having them at all?

Denerick wrote: »

...a highly trained special forces unit and bomb squad and have the rest as reserves? There really is little need for 7,000 odd Irish troops.

Where would you draw these special forces from given that all SF are taken from experienced soldiers and even then have a huge failure rate, you need to draw from as big a pool as possible (and please don't mention the RDF!!)
To reduce the number of troops below their current level of about 8,500 seriously starts to eat into our ability to serve on UN missions and also our commitments for EU Battle Groups.
What about all the ancillary services e.g comms, logistics, cavalry, would you make all these reserves also??

Denerick

Yes, frankly. We shouldn't be on UN peace missions. Allow Europe to offer their fair share for once. Much large countries and economies like Germany, France, Holland, Spain, they should contribute much larger forces on these missions.

The special forces as they stand would be enough. I would only ever envision them as a standby unit in case an extraordinary occurance happens (Such as increased IRA activity, armed terrorist threat, generally to be a standby unit ready to go into action asap. If anything serious were to happen we'd simply call up our reserves and have a temporary army in place. We really don't need this force and it would be much better for the taxpayer to recoup the losses. Though you are right, specialist auxialiary's such as communications experts and the bomb squad should remain.)

realismpol

Denerick wrote: »

Why don't they just scrap the full time army, keep a nominal navy and air force, a highly trained special forces unit and bomb squad and have the rest as reserves? There really is little need for 7,000 odd Irish troops.

Sometimes i can't believe what i read on these boards. Scrap the full time army? Your being serious? We already have one of the lowest numbers of troops serving in our army in all of europe relative to our population. Out of 34 counties in europe we are placed 28th. Only cyprus, malta, luxembourg, estonia, slovenia have less troops serving. And we have 1.5 million more people then all of those countries populations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union


Only in ireland with our history of conflict avoidance would the general population consider scrapping their full time army even in a time of ecomonic chaos. For Other nations civillians it would be the last thing they would ever scrap. It goes to show how we treat our armed forces in general and the attitude we have towards them and our small minded self serving attitudes. No wonder there is so much corruption here.

Highly trained special forces unit? Yes we could send them to kosovo or chad all 30 of them and become the laughing stock of the world. Most major police forces in europe and the united states have their own bomb squads and 'highly trained special forces'. Here they are considered as a viable alternative for the mass mobilisation of troops.

And say we had civil chaos in the country, what then we send out this small band of merry men and 18 year old reservists to quell large scale disorder. A professional trained army in numbers is the only thing that could stop this. Look at mexico for example. The only thing keeping that country from turning into a failed state is the army.

As for the nominal airforce and navy. You are aware we have already got no airforce as it stands and our navy is the smallest in europe. So scrapping that would leave us the only country in the world unable to defend itself. But sure we're irish who cares we don't need to defend ourselves there is more important things like taking money from every possible place to cover the plugholes and financial mismanagement of the greedy few.

Denerick

'Mass public disorder' - Do we have sufficient troop numbers to quell that now?

I don't see how you can link my post with corruption in the highest level. Don't see the connection myself, but anyway...

realismpol

the linkage is to do with the current economic chaos we find ourselves in. We wouldn't be considering reducing the armies numbers if we were in a position of financial strength would we? This budget wouldn't have even been taking place. It is generally accepted that the reason we find ourselves in this economic stalemate is because of financial mismangement, corporate greed and corruption or have you been living on mars for the last year.

We currently probably don't have enough to quell large scale disorder but that doesn't justify reducing their numbers. We would be in an even worse situation then. If anything we need to increase their numbers. The presence of the military alone is enough to deter these situations ever happening. And thats the point.

Denerick

Your living in dreamland. The last thing this country needs is more soldiers, and yes I'm well aware of the recession in this country. Thats why I'm suggesting the army be reformed in such a drastic manner.

And the widespread public order problem/fantasy could easily be solved with armed police. Or at least a greater portion of armed police. If we ever suffer a widespread rebellion then our army would be crushed in days. Were we invaded by any other power in the world in the event of a war, we'd be crushed in days with our current forces.

The deterrent you speak of is sheer fantasy. Maybe you are a solider and therefore unwilling to consider downscaling the army, I can understand that. But I'm entitled to my opinion.

Skyhawk1990

No the last thing this country needs is more politicians and bankers. The only reason your going after the Defence Forces because they are a soft target. What about the politician's salaries and benefits? There are plenty of other areas that need to be targeted but these are areas that the politicians refuse to make the decisions on.

Lets say that you get what you want and the Defence Forces are downsized what do you propose that we do with the thousands of unemployed? They will be an even worse "drain" on the economy. You really have to think something through before you come up with your "solution" to the recession. The fact is the Defence forces are around 1% of the governments expenditure. There are other places that need to be reformed. The Defence Forces are neutered enough as it is. Why go after it further?

A deterrent is a deterrent none the less. With what is going on at the minute i wouldn't be surprised if there was civil disorder with the easy targets bring targeted eg. health system, social welfare, etc. and the hard decisions not being taken.

Denerick

Where did I say downsizing the defence forces was my solution to the recession? Where are you getting the idea that my hostility towards the army is only new? And how on earth do you propose that the tiny proportion of the budget which goes towards politicians wages will have any impact on the public finances? That is what is called an easy target. The army is un-necessary and you haven't proven with any level of realism that it isn't. And I have thought this through. 7-8,000 unemployed soldiers will be a drop in the ocean at the moment, literally. But our budget will save quite a lot.

When the economy picks up again experienced soldiers will have a CV most would be envious of. They won't have that much problem in getting re-employment.

twinytwo

Denerick wrote: »

Yes, frankly. We shouldn't be on UN peace missions. Allow Europe to offer their fair share for once. Much large countries and economies like Germany, France, Holland, Spain, they should contribute much larger forces on these missions.

The special forces as they stand would be enough. I would only ever envision them as a standby unit in case an extraordinary occurance happens (Such as increased IRA activity, armed terrorist threat, generally to be a standby unit ready to go into action asap. If anything serious were to happen we'd simply call up our reserves and have a temporary army in place. We really don't need this force and it would be much better for the taxpayer to recoup the losses. Though you are right, specialist auxialiary's such as communications experts and the bomb squad should remain.)

You son need to grow up a little.. sure while we are at it why not get rid of the rest of the civil servents and the government and the teachers and the guards and the coast guard:rolleyes:

Skyhawk1990

I never said that it was your solution. And i never said that your hostility was new. hostility against the army is in plenty of places throughout the country. I have arguements about it with my friends all the time.

Reducing the poilitians salaries my not have a major effect on public finances but that money redirected towards families and other peole that need it will have an enormous effect on the lives on the people that need it.

Haven't proved that it's not un-nessesary please say that to the refugees in chad, the people in kosovo where the Irish army has made a differnce to peoples lives. It is nessesary here. you need that fall back if and when anything happens.

you say you've thought this through but exactly what would you do with those 7-8000 unemployed soldiers. at the moment the less unemployed the better.

Denerick

'TwintyTwo', GFY. Try not to be a condescending ass.

Skyhawk,

Thats a rather pointless statement. Cuts on politicians wages won't 'go back to the families who need it' Such nonsense. Such flatulant rubbish and irrelevant claptrap. We face a terrible deficit and a few thousand off the ministers isn't going to do much. Cutting 7-8000 un-necessary jobs will.

The Irish army has a fantastic record abroad, I have a cousin who served in Lebanon and Kosovo so I've hear all about it and I've a lot of respect for those who have served abroad in the Irish uniform. But frankly, there are bigger and stronger nations with much greater resources who contribute more and better equipped troops than we ever could. The Irish army is a vanity project tbh. Its never going to be effective when its actually needed and its only there so we can look good at the UN table. Not a bad idea in itself, but it is a waste of money.

Poccington

Denerick wrote: »

'TwintyTwo', GFY. Try not to be a condescending ass.

Careful now.

In my opinion

Seems we will survive a while longer.

Morpheus

Denerick wrote: »

'TwintyTwo', GFY. Try not to be a condescending ass.

Skyhawk,

Thats a rather pointless statement. Cuts on politicians wages won't 'go back to the families who need it' Such nonsense. Such flatulant rubbish and irrelevant claptrap. We face a terrible deficit and a few thousand off the ministers isn't going to do much. Cutting 7-8000 un-necessary jobs will.

The Irish army has a fantastic record abroad, I have a cousin who served in Lebanon and Kosovo so I've hear all about it and I've a lot of respect for those who have served abroad in the Irish uniform. But frankly, there are bigger and stronger nations with much greater resources who contribute more and better equipped troops than we ever could. The Irish army is a vanity project tbh. Its never going to be effective when its actually needed and its only there so we can look good at the UN table. Not a bad idea in itself, but it is a waste of money.

you come onto a military board, you suggest cutting the army altogether and are SHOCKED that people disagree with you?

and your response it to attack posters verbally like that.

There are very good reasons for keeping a standing army that have been argued on previous threads before, we dont have large scale armed untis within the police force so would have to start from scratch.

So you suggest we scrap the army to save money, now dispose of all their weapon systems and equipment, now tender for new equipment for the gardai, then set up training centres for their new large numbers of armed units, start training them, buy new weapons and equipment for them, buy new vehicles and maintenance equipment etc, actually why am I even bothering to argue with you, I know so little about setting up and armed police force - you are suggesting a gendarmerie i think anyway - have you even considered the costs involved in maintaining a force like this?

we live in a state threatened internally by terrorists, why only last week they said all serving members of the defence forces from northern ireland, crossing the border to serve with the irish army, are LEGITIMATE political targets.

keep the army, increase expenditure on them, buy more naval and air assets and dont expect europe to step in for our internal issues or to take up the mantle when we pull our troops from un missions - their more wealthy, let them take up the costs - which is basically what you are suggesting. tear the health service apart i say and rebuild it from scratch as an accountable lean efficient caring VALUE FOR MONEY service.

you will save shedloads of cash and put probably twice as many useless jobs out of service as you suggested for our not needed soldiers.

and for future meaningful debate try not to abuse your fellow poster's.

:mad:

TomRooney

Denerick wrote: »

Why don't they just scrap the full time army, keep a nominal navy and air force, a highly trained special forces unit and bomb squad and have the rest as reserves? There really is little need for 7,000 odd Irish troops.

that would be 10,000 odd troops, and as all nations i believe we need a standing army, for many reasons, over seas commitments, ATCP, general defence, and stature on international scene.

who is called in when the gardai can not deal with a situation.....the Army
who is called in for situations of natural disasters such as snow storms or floods.....the Army

also the gardai are by and large an unarmed force, considering the volatile nature of this state, it is absolutely imperitive that we have a standing army, especialy the way things are going now in the 6 countys, it may all kick off again, whos to say the loyalists wont bring the war to Dublin this time if it does all go pear shaped.

i dont know about you, but for all the situations i have stated i would be much more comfortable knowing there is a full time proffessional Army there ready to defend the nation, rather than a 1 day a week with 2 weeks in the summer Army.

TomRooney

Denerick wrote: »

Yes, frankly. We shouldn't be on UN peace missions. Allow Europe to offer their fair share for once. Much large countries and economies like Germany, France, Holland, Spain, they should contribute much larger forces on these missions.

The special forces as they stand would be enough. I would only ever envision them as a standby unit in case an extraordinary occurance happens (Such as increased IRA activity, armed terrorist threat, generally to be a standby unit ready to go into action asap. If anything serious were to happen we'd simply call up our reserves and have a temporary army in place. We really don't need this force and it would be much better for the taxpayer to recoup the losses. Though you are right, specialist auxialiary's such as communications experts and the bomb squad should remain.)

Increased IRA activity, you mean Like now...?

the Army Ranger Wing number about 60 soldiers, do you realy think that is a sufficient force to maintain security in a country with a population of 4 1/2 million,

as for part time soldiers there is no way they would be up to the task of combatting battle hardened Loyalists or IRA men, they would not have the tactical experience, Battle fitness or confidence to be effective against a commited and dedicated armed force.

Morpheus

TomRooney wrote: »

as for part time soldiers there is no way they would be up to the task of combatting battle hardened Loyalists or IRA men, they would not have the tactical experience, Battle fitness or confidence to be effective against a commited and dedicated armed force.

i totally agree with you, however my opinion is that the reservists, while nowhere near as ready as a professional soldier, would take somewhat less time to train up to a relatively acceptable standard than a green civvie, in an emergency that is and dependant on the situation they are expected to take part in.

fitness issues and weapons confidence is unit specific to a certain level, for example i know of one unit that is now participating in upping fitness
levels of all ranks nco's down in a group manner on seperate nights to our training night.

its in its infancy but if it works it means that our training nights and weeks and weekends will be run a higher intensity level as fitness improves. still nowhere anywhere near as good as the professionals but definitely a step in the right direction.

plus i believe that were the rdf to be mobilised in a military capacity (God forbid, it would probably be in a terrible situation) but the reserves would only to be disseminated thinly amongst pdf units to bulk up existing numbers and not be deployed on a full unit basis.

twinytwo

Denerick wrote: »

'TwintyTwo', GFY. Try not to be a condescending ass.

Skyhawk,

Thats a rather pointless statement. Cuts on politicians wages won't 'go back to the families who need it' Such nonsense. Such flatulant rubbish and irrelevant claptrap. We face a terrible deficit and a few thousand off the ministers isn't going to do much. Cutting 7-8000 un-necessary jobs will.

The Irish army has a fantastic record abroad, I have a cousin who served in Lebanon and Kosovo so I've hear all about it and I've a lot of respect for those who have served abroad in the Irish uniform. But frankly, there are bigger and stronger nations with much greater resources who contribute more and better equipped troops than we ever could. The Irish army is a vanity project tbh. Its never going to be effective when its actually needed and its only there so we can look good at the UN table. Not a bad idea in itself, but it is a waste of money.

You talk as if you have been in the army and actually have a clue what you are talking about??.. by your point of view everyone should get rid of whatever army they have and let america rule the roost.. i mean they are bigger,stronger have greater resourdes and better equiped troops than any other nation on the planet??

The goverment wasted millions on voting machines buying private jets and cars, jetting all around the glode on "trade missions" and threw money at nearly every other bad idea they could find and you think that a vital asset like the defence forces is a waste of money??????????

Do you put a price on a human life? How many lives do u think have been saved by the un missions the defence forces have been apart of? or how many people the navy and coast guard have rescued?

Skyhawk1990

Denerick wrote: »

Thats a rather pointless statement. Cuts on politicians wages won't 'go back to the families who need it' Such nonsense. Such flatulant rubbish and irrelevant claptrap. We face a terrible deficit and a few thousand off the ministers isn't going to do much. Cutting 7-8000 un-necessary jobs will.

The Irish army has a fantastic record abroad, I have a cousin who served in Lebanon and Kosovo so I've hear all about it and I've a lot of respect for those who have served abroad in the Irish uniform. But frankly, there are bigger and stronger nations with much greater resources who contribute more and better equipped troops than we ever could. The Irish army is a vanity project tbh. Its never going to be effective when its actually needed and its only there so we can look good at the UN table. Not a bad idea in itself, but it is a waste of money.

A few thousand off politicians pay I'm talking about bringing it down severely, to maybe €50,000 add taxes to that and get rid of they're benefits and expenses. add all that money up and you've saved a lot. now back to discussing how the Defence Forces will be affected by the cuts and not my plans for my coup.:p

So you plan on leaving past colonial countries go back to the countries they once ruled? Or better still send the US in. both will lead to death on both sides of the coin. We get on so well because we know what it's like being ruled by a foreign country. How do you know it's not going to be effective is that because we're not bombing Iraq or Afghanistan? I hope that we're never properly needed that's not because i don't think we couldn't perform it's because war is a terrible thing.

I agree that the reserve could do with more fitness and training but to be honest that has to come from the top to be sucessful because the odd unit here and there doing this and that prob won't catch on sadly. there are plenty of units out there that still have the bagger mentality. Fitness is not empasised enough. Also training more time need to be put in that means more weekends but that is up to cutbacks and people getting the finger out.

BigDuffman

To be honest I am very surprised the DF as a whole escaped so easily. As anyone in any way involved with the DF can see the inefficiency and manpower/funding black holes.

Restriction of promotions simply does not work in the security services as when a command or control structure relies on rank and authoritative levels. Limiting these positions is nothing but detrimental to the day to day to running of the said organization.

For example the fact that 3 senior detective positions in the AGS that will not be filled is just ridiculous. Especially considering the increasingly public escalation of violent crime.

The DF should take a page out of the GS' book, by implementing the RDF in a worthwhile role. Knock the bagger mentality out of the organization by cutting away deadwood. Include the cadre directly in the training (training weekends with the cadre for NCOs so a trickle down effect of knowledge will pass down to troops, but it does not undermind the RDF NCO's). In doing so allow the RDF to fill guard positions and other such jobs that can and could be filled by a reservist.

I think the fact that recruitment has been frozen can be viewed in a slightly optimistic was as it will allow units to be slightly introspective. And hopefully in doing so will make internal changes.

I cannot justify the existence of paying RDF when you see over-weight / braindead idiots / ancient social club hangers on.

In my opinion, the fitness question is easily solved. As there is an over-weight lazy minority who treat the organization as social club. But an annual IT should be ran annually in tandem with the ARP.

If either of these are failed the person in question should be binned / not paid.

Just speaking from my point of view and in my unit. In the last year there has been movement to improve fitness levels across the board (separate PT Parade Nights, involvement in competitions such an cosantoir 10k, The Commando Speed March, DF half marathon etc). With an average of 1 active PTL per Bn this is a slow process.

christophicus

Moving the topic in a slightly different direction, I have been a recruit since the beginning of October, I've done my hearing and medical . Do you reckon there is any chance that because the process has started that I may get in ?

Donny5

christophicus wrote: »

Moving the topic in a slightly different direction, I have been a recruit since the beginning of October, I've done my hearing and medical . Do you reckon there is any chance that because the process has started that I may get in ?

It's not unlikely. Ask your NCO.

Evd-Burner

Morphéus wrote: »

i totally agree with you, however my opinion is that the reservists, while nowhere near as ready as a professional soldier, would take somewhat less time to train up to a relatively acceptable standard than a green civvie, in an emergency that is and dependant on the situation they are expected to take part in.

fitness issues and weapons confidence is unit specific to a certain level, for example i know of one unit that is now participating in upping fitness
levels of all ranks nco's down in a group manner on seperate nights to our training night.

its in its infancy but if it works it means that our training nights and weeks and weekends will be run a higher intensity level as fitness improves. still nowhere anywhere near as good as the professionals but definitely a step in the right direction.

plus i believe that were the rdf to be mobilised in a military capacity (God forbid, it would probably be in a terrible situation) but the reserves would only to be disseminated thinly amongst pdf units to bulk up existing numbers and not be deployed on a full unit basis.

Are u based in swords??? We're just starting to do the fitness on a weekly basis, hope it becomes a more permanent thing.

iceage

Well, don't counts your chickens just yet lads....the Minister said he'd be back for more nearer Christmas, and then next year, and the year after that.

Anyone in, thank you lucky stars, anyone trying to get in, best of luck it might be a long wait but don't give up now.

target assassin

yes we cant keep looking to the UN for help and how can we contribute to them????? we are a tiny economy!!!!!!!!
maybe we could contribute with the well trained personnel that we have been sending abroad for the last number of years doing great jobs!!

we cant keep looking inward! we have to contribute!

also cutting the army will devastate the economy further! we need to keep people in jobs!!!

the RDF is also there for a good reason but isn't been used properly (in my opinion because of every time some one in pdfora hears of a green cap getting a paid job they say it could be done by a black one!)
and lets remember our own soldiers have served with reserve forces themselves!

there is nothing pdf personnel can do that rdf personnel cant with the right training

cork1

[QUOTE=target assassin;59749681

the RDF is also there for a good reason but isn't been used properly (in my opinion because of every time some one in pdfora hears of a green cap getting a paid job they say it could be done by a black one!)
and lets remember our own soldiers have served with reserve forces themselves!

there is nothing pdf personnel can do that rdf personnel cant with the right training[/QUOTE]

youve hit the nail on the head here. if you ask me the rdf needs a more active role. and if the pdf and pdforra dont like they know where they can go! its an army not a democracy. in the states if the army kicked up a fuss like the pdf do there would just be court marshals all round. the pdf are the staff and should be taking orders not deciding who does what.

minidazzler

cork1 wrote: »

youve hit the nail on the head here. if you ask me the rdf needs a more active role. and if the pdf and pdforra dont like they know where they can go! its an army not a democracy. in the states if the army kicked up a fuss like the pdf do there would just be court marshals all round. the pdf are the staff and should be taking orders not deciding who does what.

PDFORRA are simply looking out for their Members and rightly so.

cork1

thats fair enough but that still shouldnt be allowed to dictate the running of the pdf and rdf.

Poccington

cork1 wrote: »

youve hit the nail on the head here. if you ask me the rdf needs a more active role. and if the pdf and pdforra dont like they know where they can go! its an army not a democracy. in the states if the army kicked up a fuss like the pdf do there would just be court marshals all round. the pdf are the staff and should be taking orders not deciding who does what.

A more active role doing what exactly?

cork1

Poccington wrote: »

A more active role doing what exactly?

anything!gaurd duties, cash escorts, prisoner escorts. even overseas duties. the english territorial army do it and the american home gaurd can do it so why not us. if were allowed to do something then at least people would have to get in shape and have to take it more seriously.

odin_ie

realismpol wrote: »

Sometimes i can't believe what i read on these boards. Scrap the full time army? Your being serious? We already have one of the lowest numbers of troops serving in our army in all of europe relative to our population. Out of 34 counties in europe we are placed 28th. Only cyprus, malta, luxembourg, estonia, slovenia have less troops serving. And we have 1.5 million more people then all of those countries populations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

Actually, if you count in the number of reserves in each country, and take a total number of troops for each country, Ireland places behind, Cyprus, Slovenia and Estonia, when you factor in reality of serving reservists in Ireland by taking the number who qualified for grat last year, we will infact place behind Latvia too, placing us just in front of the military powerhouses that are Malta and Luxenbourg. I know this thread is about the budget, and thankfully the DF didn't take a major hit this time around, but I have a feeling that we should be getting ready for a major hit in November no matter who is in government at that stage. I would like to make a few suggestions on where the DF needs to go.

1. Barrack closures are nasty events, they can damage local economy's and force people to move, they also harm local reserve forces. However, they are going to be called for in some cases. Take the example of where a unit is split between two barracks, this means that that unit is providing two guards, two stand too's, two orderly officers and BOS's. Closing one of the Barracks and centralising the entire Battalion to one location will make a saving, if only a small one, and will make a more effective use of man days in the long run.

2. In theory at least, an Irish Infantry Battalion consists of 5 Companies, HQ, A, B, C, and Support, making the total number of personnel in a Battalion in theory 830. Now, can anybody who is serving think of a Battalion in the PDF that comes close to that number. If you do the math, and multiply 830 being our ideal Battalion size, by 9, the number of infantry battalions in the PDF, you get a number of 7470 infantry troops. Take that from our established army size of 8500, and that leaves you with 1030 for all other Corps, including Brigade and HQ staffs. In theory, the Irish Army, if it were to be fully manned maintaining current formations, the Army's size would be closer to 12-13,000(open to correction on this one by anybody who wants to do the math) personnel, not counting AC/Navy. So the question is, do we reorg the army again so that we have units up to their full establishment, which would lead to a smaller and possibly 2 brigade army, or do we use the recession to recruit and up the size of the Army and give each existing unit its full complement of personnel.

3. The contentious issue of the RDF. The RDF is the latest incarnation of a Reserve force in Ireland which traces linage back to 1927. But what is the RDF? At the moment, in general it is a kin to a drinking club of armed boy scouts. What did the recent reorg achieve? Nothing. It merely re-branded an organisation rife with problems in an attempt to clean the slate. The RDF is a dying beast, but it is one that is not beyond saving, and is even worth saving if it is done properly. As was stated elsewhere in this thread, there are 400 cadre staff tasked to the RDF, many of them are waiting for their ticket out. When was the last time any of them were on the ground, or did a career course? I say scrap them, and form closer bonds with the PDF Battalions that RDF Battalions share an area with. Some sub points on the RDF:
a. The force needs to be given a task of some sort. Whether it be bringing the RDF up to standard to do Barrack Guard on their own in a manned Barracks, it would be something. A ship without a compass is destined to be lost, but if the RDF are given a task to achieve, they will do it.
b. Bring the RDF on par with the PDF in every field possible. Life tests are one example where the standard is the same for both RDF and PDF, but why are there separate RDF and PDF tables for range practices?
c. Implement yearly life tests. A grade 4 is not too much to ask people!! And grade 3 for courses too.

The RDF is nowhere near being capable of deploying overseas in its current state, a lot of things have to change before it does. The drinking club mentality needs to be gotten rid of, as do senior officers and NCO's opposed to change and things like integration.

I will not go into the Navy and AC, as I do not know a lot about them, but I believe the Navy needs more ships to patrol our seas, not less, and the AC needs to stop ferrying ministers around, and get more aircraft capable of ferrying large bodies of troops around both at home and on UN duties.

Later,

Odin

Poccington

cork1 wrote: »

anything!gaurd duties, cash escorts, prisoner escorts. even overseas duties. the english territorial army do it and the american home gaurd can do it so why not us. if were allowed to do something then at least people would have to get in shape and have to take it more seriously.

The English and Yanks also have massive Overseas commitments to meet, we don't.

Guard duties is something the RDF do anyway when they're needed. I don't see you doing CIT's or Prisoner Escorts anytime soon.

They shouldn't need to be allowed do something just to get in shape and take stuff seriously. There's plenty of quiet periods in the PDF where there's nothing happening and you're doing nothing but duties, that doesn't mean you stop training or stop taking your job seriously.

runningman

Lads, the arguements for getting the reserve to be "better utalised" are null and void for one reason - why incur the extra cost of paying them to do something ie duties when you have people already paid to do it full time?

The reserves heading overseas have been cut for that very reason. No offence to anyone here but I think a lot of posters are thinking with their hearts not their heads. Most of the posters here from take training seriously but most of the reserve don't and thats the reason that the training cannot be upgraded to a satisfactory standard.

Other countries have a military tradition where the public respects them, the vast majority of the public here don't know what we do or the threats we face and therefore have little or no respect for us and for that reason we will always face pressure to reduce and yet the taskings continue to increase.

Next year is the next big review for the DF and in all likelyhood we will be reduced to 2 brigades with less troops with more barrack closures. This year I think we will weather out the storm with cuts in maintenance budgets and in capital buildig projects.

target assassin

yea y have the reserve do sporadic jobs when u have a full time force to do them???

the same question could be turned around, lets let the reserve do the jobs when there there to be done and let them go back to their jobs after their finished, instead of maintaining a full time force to do these sporadic jobs and still paying them when there is noting to do!

don't get me wrong i respect the PDF so much but their attitudes towards the rdf are all wrong, most other countries in europe have their reserve playing a more active role and i really thought it was heading that way with ireland but i sapose the economy dose determine allot.
lets just hope we escape the rest of the budgets and we get back on track after the economic down turn.

Poccington

target assassin wrote: »

yea y have the reserve do sporadic jobs when u have a full time force to do them???

the same question could be turned around, lets let the reserve do the jobs when there there to be done and let them go back to their jobs after their finished, instead of maintaining a full time force to do these sporadic jobs and still paying them when there is noting to do!

don't get me wrong i respect the PDF so much but their attitudes towards the rdf are all wrong, most other countries in europe have their reserve playing a more active role and i really thought it was heading that way with ireland but i sapose the economy dose determine allot.
lets just hope we escape the rest of the budgets and we get back on track after the economic down turn.

What are these sporadic jobs you speak of?

Local-womanizer

At the end of the day the majority of the Irish public see the DF as a waste,I think mainly this is because they dont see the money working(even though it is)This attitude existed during the countrys' econmic boom period so you can imagine what it is like now.With that attitude the Goverment are going to side with the majority.

Imo the goverment see the PDF and AGS as just 2 more bodies between themselves and a pay cut.If the rest of the economy was managed properly then we would be in this economic mess we are in now.

As for the RDF taking on more duties,that is going to cost money to train these personnel up,money that is not there.This year I will only be getting my 2 week annual camp and a few weekends along the way,so the chances of any extra training coming my way are slim.

Just invest more in the DF as a whole and bring it up to a cost effecient,cost effective well ran manner.If it is done properly it wont cost as much in the long run.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Armoured vehicle fleet spared public service cutbacks

A new fleet of armoured vehicles for the Defence Forces has escaped the axe in the public service cutbacks.

Defence Minister Willie O'Dea has secured approval to press ahead with plans to purchase 27 light tactical armoured vehicles at a cost of €19.6m.

Their purchase has been a top priority for the military because of the potential role they can play in overseas peace support missions. Officers say they are particularly useful when confronted with the threat from improvised explosive devices and hostile fire.

The cost of the purchase programme will be covered over several years from the defence budget.

The contract has been awarded to BAE Systems, based in South Africa. The first vehicle is due to be delivered in the last quarter of the year with another 15 on stream before Christmas. The remaining 11 will be supplied in 2010.

Meanwhile, the tender process for the supply of new ships was unaffected by the Budget. It is intended to award a contract for two offshore patrol vessels by the summer.

minidazzler

Poccington wrote: »

What are these sporadic jobs you speak of?

I think he is on about Duties Camps.


They are usually done alot by Arty Units, in fact whenever the 1st Regt are going Firing the Guns(Real guns now, no pansy rifle's. ) they request people from my Unit to do the general duties in the camp, so that more of their lads can get on the Guns. But then, we have a very good working relationship with the senior lads there. They are friends with out senior lads, so that makes everything easier.


I digress though, with the new cap on mandays there will be few such camps this year.

iceage

Mairt wrote: »

Armoured vehicle fleet spared public service cutbacks

A new fleet of armoured vehicles for the Defence Forces has escaped the axe in the public service cutbacks.

Defence Minister Willie O'Dea has secured approval to press ahead with plans to purchase 27 light tactical armoured vehicles at a cost of €19.6m.

Their purchase has been a top priority for the military because of the potential role they can play in overseas peace support missions. Officers say they are particularly useful when confronted with the threat from improvised explosive devices and hostile fire.

The cost of the purchase programme will be covered over several years from the defence budget.

The contract has been awarded to BAE Systems, based in South Africa. The first vehicle is due to be delivered in the last quarter of the year with another 15 on stream before Christmas. The remaining 11 will be supplied in 2010.

Meanwhile, the tender process for the supply of new ships was unaffected by the Budget. It is intended to award a contract for two offshore patrol vessels by the summer.

Pic for ya...scroll down the post.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=111706.html

concussion

runningman wrote: »

Next year is the next big review for the DF and in all likelyhood we will be reduced to 2 brigades with less troops with more barrack closures. This year I think we will weather out the storm with cuts in maintenance budgets and in capital buildig projects.

Funny how PWC recommended a two bde structure over a decade ago and the DF said no. I bet theres a lot of consultants itching to say 'I told you so'

-boris

would it be correct to assume, that as a result of cutbacks ,camps will be axed or reduced?and on that note would it be possible to compress a recruit camp into 1 week?

minidazzler

-boris wrote: »

would it be correct to assume, that as a result of cutbacks ,camps will be axed or reduced?and on that note would it be possible to compress a recruit camp into 1 week?

The mandays available have already been cut.

For Example in the Southern Brigade last year there were 33000 mandays. This year there are only 19000.

The Recruit Sylabus is ~ 100 hours long, 21 in Mod 1 and 80+ in Mod 2. To cut it down further would cause some horrible results.

Manic Moran

Much large countries and economies like Germany, France, Holland, Spain, they should contribute much larger forces on these missions.

You do know that the countries you mention currently have thousands of soldiers abroad on overseas deployments, right?

TomRooney wrote: »

as for part time soldiers there is no way they would be up to the task of combatting battle hardened Loyalists or IRA men, they would not have the tactical experience, Battle fitness or confidence to be effective against a commited and dedicated armed force.

No reason to say they can't. American and British part-timers are doing well enough against battle-hardened Taliban and Iraqis.

NTM

lazybhoy

TomRooney wrote: »

Increased IRA activity, you mean Like now...?

the Army Ranger Wing number about 60 soldiers, do you realy think that is a sufficient force to maintain security in a country with a population of 4 1/2 million,

as for part time soldiers there is no way they would be up to the task of combatting battle hardened Loyalists or IRA men, they would not have the tactical experience, Battle fitness or confidence to be effective against a commited and dedicated armed force.

Most troops in NI were UDR part timers. Anti terrorism nowadays is intelligence led.

Part timers proved themselves in NI. When they have a specific mission and standards to meet they take it far more seriously.