Taxis Revisited in General

Spook_ie

1. The taxi industry is unique in that it is a regulated service industry supplied by self employed individuals, it cannot work like any other retail/service industry BECAUSE it is price regulated as well as quality regulated and as such all the arguments about why should the taxi industry have a temporary moratorium unlike any other industry like newsagents etc. is because it isn’t allowed to run to normal economic models.

High demand/short supply= higher price
Low demand/excess supply= lower price

If you want to treat it the same as any other industry, survival of the fittest, then let it run like any other industry

2. Taxi drivers want a temporary moratorium on plates followed by a full review of the industry because there are too many anomalous situations with regard to who is working, which area(s) they are working in, which cars will be allowed as taxis after 1.1.2012, what training / testing is going to be done for drivers, what enforcement is going to be carried out, who is going to carry out the enforcement, what guarantees do non union aligned taxi drivers have that there points of view are even listened to, who is going to take responsibility for non Dublin taxis when the Taxi Regulators office is amalgamated with Dublin 21 transport, why a one size fits all solution is seen as the only way forward when different areas of the country need different solutions

3. The meter does NOT clock up units at a different rate when on a motorway as the units are distance not speed, it may seem that the meter is incrementing at a greater rate but that is only because you are covering a measured unit in a shorter time. Also despite assertions that the cost of a taxi fare from the Airport to Ballymun is nearly double when using the M50 as against the side road of the airport €15 against €28 is totally unfounded as I measured both routes ( using the Airport Roundabout and The Days Inn as datum points ) and the costs were €11.45 via the M50 on rate B and €10.25 on rate B via the side road of the airport, this would seem to suggest either an exaggeration by the poster or the taxi that the poster used has a significant difference in the set meter rate to my own ( my own I know was calibrated and sealed within the last 60 days and the fares I normally do have shown no increase) so my thoughts would be that mine is still within calibration.

Scan of receipts from journey

4. For whatever relevance it has I didn't enter the industry until 2004 and so wouldn't classify myself as someone who has an interest in seeing plate prices increase which is why I am an advocate of removing the transferability of plates BUT with the number of plates available for re-release back onto the market (after retirements etc.) set by market conditions, so that new entrants have the ability to earn a wage AND reinvest in new quality initiatives for the industry.

5. I am also an advocate that all taxis should (eventually) be less than 5 years old, be VRT free for full time taxi drivers, which would mean that if you want to have a taxi just to drive in the bus lanes to your office job and then work a few hours when you need a new set of golf clubs then you couldn't, and that they have a unique registration plate
e.g. 09TX12345
to allow Gardai to be able to effectively police clone plates and the age of vehicles, also given that the license details are on the yellow stickers it would allow the removal of the present un-aerodynamic roof signs, I believe the TR did do a report back in 2004 that the drag caused by this style of roof sign significantly affects fuel consumption. In addition to this if the taxi was reregistered for public use then the VRT would become payable, the intended effect of this would be to stop people coming into the industry for short periods of time to earn a fast buck as they would have to pay the VRT on leaving the industry as the license wouldn't be transferable.

6. Double Jobbing, in an economic downturn people who double job, just to pay for the luxuries in life are a leech on the people who are trying to pay for the necessities. They also have a direct effect on the destabilization of the taxi industry and fail to allow it to find equilibrium. It’s like having two birthday parties with cake and dividing it up between the people at each party, then some people from the 1st party decide that they’ll go and get cake from the other party because their equal slice wasn’t enough. Not to mention the questionable effect of people working for a week and then doing a weekends work driving the public around.

7. Taxi driving should be minimum wage, an interesting concept and to be honest, if I was guaranteed to get minimum wage, with the money to pay for the upgrades, maintenance of car etc. Then I would certainly consider doing it, however, as the taxi driver is self employed and also has to budget for holiday pay, sickness, unpaid enforced time of the road etc. Then minimum wage wouldn’t cover it.

8. Taxi drivers driving abilities or lack of, taxi drivers are a cross section of the Irish population and if you removed the visible signs of a vehicle being a taxi you would be hard pressed to tell the difference from that of the general populace, there is a large majority of people in Ireland who shouldn’t even be allowed to ride a bike, never mind attempt to drive a car. I would say though that one thing the Taxi Regulators office does need to look at though is the thought train of certain drivers to get in front of other drivers at any cost, perhaps this is now more apparent due to the overall competition for fares out there.

9. Discounted Fares. Because the business model of taxiing is based on a 1st seen 1st taken methodology, it’s very difficult for a single driver to differentiate themselves from the “crowd”, you may well be able to offer discounts from a company perspective and increase the amount of business generated for a percentage of drivers on that company’s radio system but it doesn’t help with the general taxi model of someone flagging a taxi down on the street. I would wonder though at the wisdom of companies reducing fares for telephone bookings whilst not reducing the costs to their customers. (Taxi drivers are the radio company’s customers, the public are the taxi driver’s customers and the radio company are a facilitator to allow the two to meet) Having spoken to personal freinds who drive for the company the jury is still out on the matter as they haven't seen the increase in business that was forecast.

10. Ranks. I would contend that due to the inherent danger of the Taxi Regulators advice to select any vehicle at a rank that it should be immediately rescinded. I’ve seen it with my own eyes where an intending passenger has gone to get into the vehicle 3 or 4 places from the front, when the queue has moved up with the result that the passenger ended up on the floor, luckily so far no one’s gone under the wheels!, I also contend that the advice gives an opportunity to the racist elements of society to avoid using cars based on race rather than on quality

Calina

Spook_ie mentioned yesterday that this was coming.

This is a mod note.

Taxi related threads have, latterly, tended to become very fractious as people tend to have entrenched positions.

This is an upfront warning. Any one posting out of hand, trolling, abusing, ignoring the charter, no matter how valid their point, will be banned for two weeks. I would like not to have to close this one.

I'd like to see this thread be educational on both sides.

End of mod note.

Godge

Spook_ie wrote: »

8. Taxi drivers driving abilities or lack of, taxi drivers are a cross section of the Irish population and if you removed the visible signs of a vehicle being a taxi you would be hard pressed to tell the difference from that of the general populace, there is a large majority of people in Ireland who shouldn’t even be allowed to ride a bike, never mind attempt to drive a car. I would say though that one thing the Taxi Regulators office does need to look at though is the thought train of certain drivers to get in front of other drivers at any cost, perhaps this is now more apparent due to the overall competition for fares out there.

9. Discounted Fares. Because the business model of taxiing is based on a 1st seen 1st taken methodology, it’s very difficult for a single driver to differentiate themselves from the “crowd”, you may well be able to offer discounts from a company perspective and increase the amount of business generated for a percentage of drivers on that company’s radio system but it doesn’t help with the general taxi model of someone flagging a taxi down on the street. I would wonder though at the wisdom of companies reducing fares for telephone bookings whilst not reducing the costs to their customers. (Taxi drivers are the radio company’s customers, the public are the taxi driver’s customers and the radio company are a facilitator to allow the two to meet) Having spoken to personal freinds who drive for the company the jury is still out on the matter as they haven't seen the increase in business that was forecast.

some good points made in your post - particularly about the motorway issue, the meter ticks up faster as you drive faster. However, I have noticed recently some taxis I have been in slowing down as they approach traffic lights hoping for a red to pick up an extra waiting "tick" on the meter.

The two points quoted above are a weaker part of your argument. Taxi drivers should have better standards of driving than the general public. Unfortunately in my experience (as variously another driver, cyclist, motorcyclist and public transport user) their skills appear worse. Only knocked down twice in fifteen years cycling and motorcycling - both times by taxi drivers who changed their mind and didn't indicate.

Also well done to the taxi companies offering discounts. I am using them for all personal taxi travel.

Chris_533976

Some interesting information here, thanks.

I still predict this thread will go down the toilet, but I hope we get a few pages of sense before that happens.

2qk4u

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Some interesting information here, thanks.

I still predict this thread will go down the toilet, but I hope we get a few pages of sense before that happens.

Lets try keep it clean so, the amount of taxi bashing threads lately has been a bit much. I think a positive thread will help people understand the Taxi industry better.

Terrontress

I have always thought that the cars without VRT would be a tough one to police. You would have to ensure that those availing of such a car were full time taxi drivers. People often say the Merc E Class is the ultimate taxi. How much would the VRT on a new one be? You can imagine the number of people trying to exploit that. Also, is it fair for a taxi driver's wife to drive the car when it is not being used when the car has effectively been subsidised by the tax payer?

I can see a good argument for the port tunnel to be free of charge to taxis but again it would be open to abuse to the Michael O'Learys of this world.

amtaxi

Spook_ie wrote: »

7. Taxi driving should be minimum wage, an interesting concept and to be honest, if I was guaranteed to get minimum wage, with the money to pay for the upgrades, maintenance of car etc. Then I would certainly consider doing it, however, as the taxi driver is self employed and also has to budget for holiday pay, sickness, unpaid enforced time of the road etc. Then minimum wage wouldn’t cover it.

God wish I could earn minimum wage - went to work tonight at 6pm - first fare 10.49pm €6.25 second fare 12.05am €4.45 third and final fare 1.07am €5.85 just home having sat on rank for another hour

Well done spook_ie, well presented points

Spook_ie

Terrontress wrote: »

I have always thought that the cars without VRT would be a tough one to police. You would have to ensure that those availing of such a car were full time taxi drivers. People often say the Merc E Class is the ultimate taxi. How much would the VRT on a new one be? You can imagine the number of people trying to exploit that. Also, is it fair for a taxi driver's wife to drive the car when it is not being used when the car has effectively been subsidised by the tax payer?

I can see a good argument for the port tunnel to be free of charge to taxis but again it would be open to abuse to the Michael O'Learys of this world.

Taxi drivers have to be taxi drivers, it works in other countries, if you drive a taxi you can't work elsewhere, means that only people who want to be taxi drivers are taxi drivers ( no one driving for a bit of extra cash whenever they feel like it ) but people who are genuinely providing what is supposed to be a public service. At the end of the day though you will never eliminate all the loop holes, O'Leary himself just employs a driver with a psv license and effectively hires the taxi to himself ( all he needs do is get the driver to fill in a waiver form saying fare calculation on the meter waived for hire of taxi between 7.00 and 21.00 or whatever ) and then claim the year as a total loss against his Mercedes. If taxi drivers had to be taxi drivers though he wouldn't be able to employ a driver and would instead have to lease the car to his driver who would then have to do a self employed tax return

Terrontress

Spook_ie wrote: »

Taxi drivers have to be taxi drivers, it works in other countries, if you drive a taxi you can't work elsewhere, means that only people who want to be taxi drivers are taxi drivers ( no one driving for a bit of extra cash whenever they feel like it ) but people who are genuinely providing what is supposed to be a public service. At the end of the day though you will never eliminate all the loop holes, O'Leary himself just employs a driver with a psv license and effectively hires the taxi to himself ( all he needs do is get the driver to fill in a waiver form saying fare calculation on the meter waived for hire of taxi between 7.00 and 21.00 or whatever ) and then claim the year as a total loss against his Mercedes. If taxi drivers had to be taxi drivers though he wouldn't be able to employ a driver and would instead have to lease the car to his driver who would then have to do a self employed tax return

It sounds reasonable but how do you enforce it?

Insist drivers work over 40 hrs per week? How could you do that? Existing drivers wouldn't be happy if their meters are being snooped on to prove it. Especially if the Revenue have access to the information too!

What if someone is sick? Would they have to put in for sick leave if they can't make full time hours? Or go on holidays?

Would we see a return of cosys as taxi owners try to push the hours driven in their taxi to above 40?

You are definitely right that the best way is to have full time taxi drivers only but I think that zero VRT would only be an incentive to non full-time people to get in added to the existing use of bus-lanes while not hired and cheap road tax. If a new Merc E-Class Diesel costs €50k, say €12k of that is VRT and if your five year rule is used, €1k per year in road tax savings, that would be a saving of €17k over the life of the car. It would more than make up for any loss incurred to a non taxi driver whose car depreciates as it is used as a taxi. A current barrier to entry.

What would be your opinion if VRT was kept as existing, road tax was restored to private car levels, taxis need to have their meter running and a passenger on board to use the bus lane but drivers had to prove that they had worked in excess of 40 hours per week when audited, thereby removing part-timers?

dereko1969

Spook_ie wrote: »

10. Ranks. I would contend that due to the inherent danger of the Taxi Regulators advice to select any vehicle at a rank that it should be immediately rescinded. I’ve seen it with my own eyes where an intending passenger has gone to get into the vehicle 3 or 4 places from the front, when the queue has moved up with the result that the passenger ended up on the floor, luckily so far no one’s gone under the wheels!, I also contend that the advice gives an opportunity to the racist elements of society to avoid using cars based on race rather than on quality

I'm not going to get into all the detail of the points you've made, so apologies in advance for that. I have heard comments from mates that at taxi ranks they have been 'shuffled' away from the front of the taxi rank by other taxi drivers towards white taxi drivers rather than the black taxi drivers at the front of the rank - have you heard anything about this?

Also considering one of the complaints of taxi drivers is the lack of rank space why last night at one of the biggest taxi ranks (o'connell st - where the instances of shuffling occurred) were drivers not progressing to the top of the rank and thus limiting the number of taxis that could wait at the rank? There was space for at least 4 more taxis in the rank, the 'first' taxi in the rank had it's lights off and no driver in it, seemed very odd to me (and this was the case for 10 minutes while i waited for a bus).

Spook_ie

dereko1969 wrote: »

I'm not going to get into all the detail of the points you've made, so apologies in advance for that. I have heard comments from mates that at taxi ranks they have been 'shuffled' away from the front of the taxi rank by other taxi drivers towards white taxi drivers rather than the black taxi drivers at the front of the rank - have you heard anything about this?

Also considering one of the complaints of taxi drivers is the lack of rank space why last night at one of the biggest taxi ranks (o'connell st - where the instances of shuffling occurred) were drivers not progressing to the top of the rank and thus limiting the number of taxis that could wait at the rank? There was space for at least 4 more taxis in the rank, the 'first' taxi in the rank had it's lights off and no driver in it, seemed very odd to me (and this was the case for 10 minutes while i waited for a bus).

AFAIK The Gresham rank works on the basis of, drive up see an empty space on either side and pull in, enquire ( yell out " who's holding last" ) who was last in the Q, then when you get to 2nd you direct the next punter to the guy in front of you and you then become 1st in the Q, in the meantime if anyone else joins the rank they then become last. Never worked it to be honest, but it sounds like a complete mess up, can't see why it doesn't just work like a straight rank with a bend in it!

Carawaystick

Spook_ie wrote: »

1. The taxi industry is unique in that it is a regulated service industry supplied by self employed individuals, it cannot work like any other retail/service industry

It's like the tolling companies, tolls are set at a maximum and can be reduced at the toll operators discretion.

2. Why stop new entrants to the market? they take the risk of the unknown future circumstances on the chin if they enter now.
I can't see how you can be a self employed person and be a member of a union involved in the business. If the taxi regulator holds public consultations, then all submissions must be considered. if you think yours hasn't you can take a case to the courts.

3. no problem with this.

4. Again self employed sole traders don't earn a wage, they make profits.
What market conditions would you think appropriate? I'd say it'd have to be for the benefit of the taxi using public, not for taxi drivers or the govt.

5. I don't see how the age of a car matters. some objective standards regarding quality would be a better idea.
Roof signs easily allow the public identify a taxi when they want to hail one, especially in times of darkness. French taxi's have smaler signs and are much harder to see in advance for example.


6. preventing motivated people from working to earn money is called communism. What if a person is on short time hours or week on week off?

7. Taxi driving is low skilled work. Introducing a high standard of knowledge about the area the driver wants to drive in would be a simple step upskilling. introducing objective standards of quality for the taxis is another.

8. Following on from the point above, introducing an advanced driving test for taxi/cab/limo drivers would again introduce more skill to the job.

9. yeah, it's not much use for non radio work. you'ld have to be rigourous though, getting a taximan who is now with the discount radio co. vs one who is with a non-discount radio co and then here is the aggregate drop in demand for taxis in total.

10. What have the Gardaí or the HSA or the RSA to say on this?

mdebets

my comments

5) What's the obsession here with putting an age limit on cars. I have been driven in 10 year old Mercedes that were in better nick than a 4 year old Toyota for example. The overall condition of the car should be the deciding factor not its age.
The removal of the roof signs is a bad idea. Without a roof sign you won't be able to identify a taxi until it's just passing you, to late to call. It's even worse at night.

6) Part-time taxi drivers should definitely be allowed. They are not just people who do it to pay for luxuries, but also people who do it because they need the money to survive
Part-time taxi drivers are also a good way to handle demand at peak-times. Let's assume you need 1000 taxis during off-peak hours and 2000 taxis during peak hours (assumed numbers only, don't know the real ones). You have 3 choices. A) have 2000 full-time taxi drivers half of which are not needed during most of the time, which will most likely lead to have 1000 full-time drivers, and the public is back to the good old times, when passengers have to wait for long times to get a taxi, because there are not enough at peak times. C) have 1000 full-time and 1000 part-time drivers (who only work at peak times) and you have enough taxis during the whole day without the drivers earning too little.

7) You are self-employeed you make a profit or loss, not a wage. No other self-employeed person is asking for a minimum wage.
Besides this there is also practical reasons. Who is going to pay this and from what money? How do you determine the hours a taxi-driver worked? What conditions does the driver has? Does he has to park the car at a rank, or can he just wait in an estate out-off town where none is passing by to hail a taxi and goes home after 8 hours of no fare and collects minimum wage for this?

8) Taxi drivers are supposed to be professional drivers so the rules should be more stringent than for other drivers.
I think there should be a practical driving test for the psv license (harder than the normal driving test) and the punishment should be harder for professional drivers than for normal drivers.

10) There should be no requirement to pick the first taxi in the rank. No other business is requesting the same. You don't have to buy your newspaper at the first news agent you pass you can choose where you buy it. The same should be true for taxis.

thebman

1) The regulator should only sets minimum standards and max fares. Then you can compete fine.

2) This is what the laws of supply/demand should sort out. Nobody would work in an area if they are losing money.

5) I would say that the most important thing for taxis would be safety standards and that all taxis should have a minimum of a 4 star NCAP rating, possibly 5 because I don't know how many cars qualify for 5. Taxi plates aren't a bad idea but removing the roof sign will make it harder to spot taxis.

6) It is supply/demand. There is nothing wrong with someone working two jobs. If they want to work hard then let them. The only check that should be performed here is on whether someone has had enough sleep to be safe behind the wheel.

8) As taxi drivers drive for a living, they should have to resit the test at least every 2 years to ensure they are not a danger to the public. It is in everyones interest that this happens. Other drivers on the road and their many passengers. This also should mean harsher penalties on some driving offenses, most importantly drink driving. If found drink driving they should be banned from every driving a taxi again.

9) drivers should have to clearly display the fare prices they charge on the outside of their vehicles eliminating this problem. This could be on the roof sign if it would fit.

10) You eliminate competition on price if you restrict which taxi people can get into. If a passenger is a racist, it is probably safer that they don't get in the car with the person that belongs to the race they are racist against. There should be harsh penalties for misbehavior at ranks on behalf of taxi drivers and passengers should have common sense. It isn't a reason to prevent choice of taxi which encourages people to maintain their taxi's well and try to have a newer car over any old banger.


Oh if taxi's are going to get VRT off, it should only be on greener vehicles with lower noise levels. Electric cars would be perfect but I suspect they can't do the mileage without needing a charge so efficient cars or hybrids would be best until a better alternative becomes available. Hybrids not because of fuel efficiency so much as their ability to be quiet running at low speeds which would occur in the city and they can run at high speeds on motorways so fit perfectly at the moment.

jimmycrackcorm

The basic problem is that you'd assume that market supply would generate an equilibrium of taxis. However the fact that it is so easy to enter the market means that the equilibrium will never achieve a realistic balance as people continually try to enter the market and end up leaving because it is uneconomic to stay. This basic problem will stay until either the jobs market returns to make it more possible for drivers to find a better paying job or that the entry to the market is altered to adapt to a more professional model by raising the bar for quality. E.g. You must pass a very extensive knowledge test, your car must be of a certain quality etc. This would not prejudice entry to the market but the objective would be to ensure that the public gets a very high quality taxi service for the inflated price we pay.

thebman

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The basic problem is that you'd assume that market supply would generate an equilibrium of taxis. However the fact that it is so easy to enter the market means that the equilibrium will never achieve a realistic balance as people continually try to enter the market and end up leaving because it is uneconomic to stay. This basic problem will stay until either the jobs market returns to make it more possible for drivers to find a better paying job or that the entry to the market is altered to adapt to a more professional model by raising the bar for quality. E.g. You must pass a very extensive knowledge test, your car must be of a certain quality etc. This would not prejudice entry to the market but the objective would be to ensure that the public gets a very high quality taxi service for the inflated price we pay.

That would be kept to a minimum by the market itself. People enter, realise it isn't sustainable and leave. People retire from the job and new people enter and word of mouth that you can't make a living as a taxi driver.

I'd be for higher standards too and I've outlined some of those in my previous post.

This creates a nice skill set and vehicle quality balance that will ensure that not everyone can enter the market. I'd say a test should include knowledge of common routes around the area the person intends to drive if possible.

Spook_ie

Carawaystick wrote: »

It's like the tolling companies, tolls are set at a maximum and can be reduced at the toll operators discretion.

2. Why stop new entrants to the market? they take the risk of the unknown future circumstances on the chin if they enter now.
I can't see how you can be a self employed person and be a member of a union involved in the business. If the taxi regulator holds public consultations, then all submissions must be considered. if you think yours hasn't you can take a case to the courts.

3. no problem with this.

4. Again self employed sole traders don't earn a wage, they make profits.
What market conditions would you think appropriate? I'd say it'd have to be for the benefit of the taxi using public, not for taxi drivers or the govt.

5. I don't see how the age of a car matters. some objective standards regarding quality would be a better idea.
Roof signs easily allow the public identify a taxi when they want to hail one, especially in times of darkness. French taxi's have smaler signs and are much harder to see in advance for example.


6. preventing motivated people from working to earn money is called communism. What if a person is on short time hours or week on week off?

7. Taxi driving is low skilled work. Introducing a high standard of knowledge about the area the driver wants to drive in would be a simple step upskilling. introducing objective standards of quality for the taxis is another.

8. Following on from the point above, introducing an advanced driving test for taxi/cab/limo drivers would again introduce more skill to the job.

9. yeah, it's not much use for non radio work. you'ld have to be rigourous though, getting a taximan who is now with the discount radio co. vs one who is with a non-discount radio co and then here is the aggregate drop in demand for taxis in total.

10. What have the Gardaí or the HSA or the RSA to say on this?

1 In a market economy that has a price cap ( maximum earning potential ) then the onus should also be on a defined ( under constant review ) number of participents, you can't have your cake and eat it. If you want a free market then ( other than safety and insurence legislation, which is a requirement for all cars ) let it be a free market with unlimited participants but no price cap

2 The moritorium is being asked for so that it's easier to restucture the market with 25000 cabs rather than with 35000, it's like having a leak in your bathroom, you don't try to fix the problem until you've turned off the supply, otherwise it just adds to the problem

3n/a

4 Participants in the taxi industry have to be able to earn enough profits to both live on and to reinvest in their vehicles, comes back down to supply v demand, do you want the taxi industry to run as a standard economic model or do you want it to run to provide a public service?

5 The quality issue is supposed to be approached with the new 9 year old rule that's due to come in from 1/1/2012, personaly I don't think it's going to make one iota of a difference to the "QUALITY" of the cars, if a driver doesn't look after his 12/13/14 year old car what makes the Taxi Regulator think he's going to look after a 6/7/8/9 year old car. As an aside to this, it was originaly planned that all NEW entrants from 1/1/2009 would have to conform to the 9 year rule, this was subsequently amended to be all new plates i.e 45000 and up. Another year lost and another year of people buying plates 2nd hand and putting anything they like ( as long as it has a roof, 4 doors, 5 seats and a boot ) on the road.
The question of identifying a taxi is subjective but would easily be solved by having the cars painted a luminous green or by having them covered in reflective stripes or whatever color scheme suits, the main contention would be the aerodynamics of the current sign ( the only requirement to ID a taxi today), are sadly lacking in the North and in many other cities the signs are much more aerodynamic, even at present levels of 25000+ taxis the fuel and economy savings ( even if it were as low as 5%) would be substantial

6 You want a professional service then you get professional drivers, if you're on short time in your normal job and you can't make ends meet then instead of being a part time hobby taxi you become full time, if you can't hack being a taxi driver full time there is no reason I can see to be one part time

7 Doesn't cover the argument that people have to eat as well as re invest in the industry, which would you prefer a taxi driver who doesn't feed his kids because the money has gone on the taxi, a taxi driver that puts minimum investment back into the industry or a compomise solution?

8 No problem with that at all, however I would take it a step further and insist that it's a pre-requisite of taxi driving that as well as passing an advanced test, that you have held a full license for a number of years AND that the license you hold is endorsable within this country, too many taxi drivers I know have licenses from other EU countries and laugh at the speeding fines etc. because they have NO fear of losing their license.

9 As I say the juries still out, apparantly there was a radio program on today with two taxi company owners facing off about discount fares, one of them was Ebbs ( 202020 taxis ) and the other was ( I think ) Network Taxis, must see if I can find a podcast of it.

10. The Garda and HSE have no concerns because it isn't in their remit, HSE and Gardai might become more concerned when a fatality or serious injury occurs, as is often the case any action will be too late to save someone's life. As to the racial side of the ranks I emailed NRCCI and Taxi Regulator about it, results NRCCI No reply TR No complaints recieved and taxiranks are not within our remit

maggy_thatcher

That's why my solution to the problem would be:

1. Put out to tender the licence to operate all taxis in an area (perhaps a few licences for competition reasons). These licences would be auctioned off similar to the telecoms licences.
2. Revoke all current taxi licences.
3. Allow these companies to hire/fire taxi drivers at will.
4. These taxi drivers must be certified, qualified drivers to be hired, etc.

This way, the drivers are guaranteed a minimum wage, as they are now employees, rather than self-traders, and if the "company" doesn't operate within whatever strict guidelines it is given, it gets its licence revoked.

L1011

mdebets wrote: »

The removal of the roof signs is a bad idea. Without a roof sign you won't be able to identify a taxi until it's just passing you, to late to call. It's even worse at night.

The white/green hi-viz colour scheme used in Brighton or luminous blue registration plates as used in Holland seems to work grand at night; the latter of which doesn't destroy the cars resale value either.

MOH

I don't really get the moratorium.

Two points which have come up a number of times from taxi drivers are:
- it's impossible to make a living now as a taxi driver;
- there's a lot of cowboys out there - fake taxis, plates being rented out to anyone, dodgy cars, whatever.

A moratorium isn't going to help resolve either of those. It might stop things getting worse, but maintaining the status quo isn't really what anyone wants.

Plus when people hear "moratorium" they just think back to the bad old days and a closed market completely insufficient taxi numbers.

But yet that's the one word being thrown out over and over again. There was a half page opinion piece by a taxi driver in the Irish Times a few weeks ago, good chance to get some points across about the problems taxis are facing, but again wasted on the moratorium chant. Oh, and complaining about double jobbing, which I thought a bit ironic given the writer was a freelance journalist.

Forget the moratorium, proper regulation of basics like roadworthy cars and checks on licences. God knows there's enough unemployed people out there, train some more taxi license inspectors and give them power to do something. Stricter standards for new entrants, but only as long as the same criteria are applied to existing drivers after e.g. 2 years. Alongside this, review of other aspects of the industry.

Spook_ie

MOH wrote: »

I don't really get the moratorium.

Two points which have come up a number of times from taxi drivers are:
- it's impossible to make a living now as a taxi driver;
- there's a lot of cowboys out there - fake taxis, plates being rented out to anyone, dodgy cars, whatever.

A moratorium isn't going to help resolve either of those. It might stop things getting worse, but maintaining the status quo isn't really what anyone wants.

Plus when people hear "moratorium" they just think back to the bad old days and a closed market completely insufficient taxi numbers.

/snip/
.

but that's why I keep putting it in BOLD A temporary moritorium, to stop it from getting any worse and followed on by an immediate re-evaluation of the industry, the re-evaluation could easily encompass all the suggestions given, but if you want to keep the good drivers in the industry action is needed now

amtaxi

MOH wrote: »

God knows there's enough unemployed people out there, train some more taxi license inspectors and give them power to do something. Stricter standards for new entrants, but only as long as the same criteria are applied to existing drivers after e.g. 2 years. Alongside this, review of other aspects of the industry.

The budget 09 will certainly help unemployed people - government have increased the BTEA so will fund plenty more taxis - but have scrapped BTWA so they don't want to encourage employment but rather self employment - then when things don't work out they have nowhere to turn.:( Social welfare are advising newly unemployed men to apply for PSV licence and come back to them. Many posts here have said "if you don't like it get out" unfortunately there's nowhere to go as I have learned over the past months applying for jobs and sending CVs. The only thing the government forgot is that by taking even more money off people they are encouraging people to spend across the border and not to spend here. Things are going to get a lot worse for all of us in the service industry - not just the taxi industry - noone has any money to spend!:eek:

Carawaystick

Spook_ie wrote: »

1 In a market economy that has a price cap ( maximum earning potential ) then the onus should also be on a defined ( under constant review ) number of participents, you can't have your cake and eat it. If you want a free market then ( other than safety and insurence legislation, which is a requirement for all cars ) let it be a free market with unlimited participants but no price cap

2 The moritorium is being asked for so that it's easier to restucture the market with 25000 cabs rather than with 35000, it's like having a leak in your bathroom, you don't try to fix the problem until you've turned off the supply, otherwise it just adds to the problem

3n/a

4 Participants in the taxi industry have to be able to earn enough profits to both live on and to reinvest in their vehicles, comes back down to supply v demand, do you want the taxi industry to run as a standard economic model or do you want it to run to provide a public service?

5 The quality issue is supposed to be approached with the new 9 year old rule that's due to come in from 1/1/2012, personaly I don't think it's going to make one iota of a difference to the "QUALITY" of the cars, if a driver doesn't look after his 12/13/14 year old car what makes the Taxi Regulator think he's going to look after a 6/7/8/9 year old car. As an aside to this, it was originaly planned that all NEW entrants from 1/1/2009 would have to conform to the 9 year rule, this was subsequently amended to be all new plates i.e 45000 and up. Another year lost and another year of people buying plates 2nd hand and putting anything they like ( as long as it has a roof, 4 doors, 5 seats and a boot ) on the road.
The question of identifying a taxi is subjective but would easily be solved by having the cars painted a luminous green or by having them covered in reflective stripes or whatever color scheme suits, the main contention would be the aerodynamics of the current sign ( the only requirement to ID a taxi today), are sadly lacking in the North and in many other cities the signs are much more aerodynamic, even at present levels of 25000+ taxis the fuel and economy savings ( even if it were as low as 5%) would be substantial

6 You want a professional service then you get professional drivers, if you're on short time in your normal job and you can't make ends meet then instead of being a part time hobby taxi you become full time, if you can't hack being a taxi driver full time there is no reason I can see to be one part time

7 Doesn't cover the argument that people have to eat as well as re invest in the industry, which would you prefer a taxi driver who doesn't feed his kids because the money has gone on the taxi, a taxi driver that puts minimum investment back into the industry or a compomise solution?

8 No problem with that at all, however I would take it a step further and insist that it's a pre-requisite of taxi driving that as well as passing an advanced test, that you have held a full license for a number of years AND that the license you hold is endorsable within this country, too many taxi drivers I know have licenses from other EU countries and laugh at the speeding fines etc. because they have NO fear of losing their license.

9 As I say the juries still out, apparantly there was a radio program on today with two taxi company owners facing off about discount fares, one of them was Ebbs ( 202020 taxis ) and the other was ( I think ) Network Taxis, must see if I can find a podcast of it.

10. The Garda and HSE have no concerns because it isn't in their remit, HSE and Gardai might become more concerned when a fatality or serious injury occurs, as is often the case any action will be too late to save someone's life. As to the racial side of the ranks I emailed NRCCI and Taxi Regulator about it, results NRCCI No reply TR No complaints recieved and taxiranks are not within our remit

1. Domestic electricity and gas supply are the same as taxi's. there is a maximum price set and defined quality levels also. New entrants can enter the market if they think they can make a profit.

2. There was a problem with ordinary driving licenses. no-one suggested introducing a moratorium. The extra cost of the extra licenses can deal with applying the new standards to the extra licenses.

3.
4. But "enough profits to live on and re-invest in their taxi's" is as long as piece of string. Some people will need more to live on than thers - like someone who bought their house 20 years ago vs last year at the top of the boom - for a reasonably uncontentious difference in a person's fixed outgoings. How do you set the price of a new taxi in a falling market. How often do you re-adjust the price?

5. the age of cars is a cop out in defining the standard of a car. A 25 year old Merc could easily be of a better standard to a 8.5 year old compact saloon.
The govt just increased fuel costs by more than 5% this afternoon, OPEC did a lot more over the last few years... Black taxi's in Scotland belfast and England are distinctive enough without signs.....

6. I just disagree. I see no issue with part time drivers as long as their cars meet the objective standards and driver passes the same knowledge test. What about semi-retired drivers who only operate during profitable times and live off savings or a pension for the rest of the time for example?

7. Introducing a high barrier to entry would reduce the number of taxi drivers. I thought this is what most taxi drivers want?

8. I don't see this issue of holding a license for an amount of time solving anything. If you pass the test, the govt have decided you are a competent driver. How does passing a test, not driving for x years make you any better than some one who passed the test drove for x-1 years?
I'd say EU law would prevent any discrimination on license holders nationality. There is no requirement on any eu license holder to exchange it for the duration of the license. What about a taxi driver driving in Lifford and area, but living in Strabane? they could not get an Irish license
The govt should run the penalty points system to account for at least other EU licenses, the driver number is marked 5 on EU licenses. I presume there is a record of the address on the taxi license application, which needs to be reasonably current. It's not beyond the wit of man to deal with this problem.

9.
10. The HSA -Health and Safety Authority, not the HSE - The HSE can't even spell, I wouldn't rely on them to do anything.
I thought the HSA were busybodies enough to want to get involved before a serious injury. They wanted us (in a previous job) to take unreal precautions in case materiel clearly marked as safe (by the multinational manufacturer with deep pockets to sue) to use latex gloves - even thought they can cause a much worse reaction.....

There's a lot of buck passing regarding ranks, which needs to be sorted out by someone.

oisindoyle

Godge wrote: »

some good points made in your post - particularly about the motorway issue, the meter ticks up faster as you drive faster. However, I have noticed recently some taxis I have been in slowing down as they approach traffic lights hoping for a red to pick up an extra waiting "tick" on the meter..

No he didnt say that at all ...I'll make it clear for you ,,,,,,The meter DOES NOT tick up faster as you driver faster...
Second point EVERY car should slowdown if the traffic lights begin to change ,thats the whole idea of traffic management ....You're been a little paranod thinking that the driver does it on purpose .

maggy_thatcher

oisindoyle wrote: »

The meter DOES NOT tick up faster as you driver faster...

It depends on your definition of faster -- if you mean "more ticks/min", then yes it does. If you mean "more ticks/km", then no it doesn't.

godtabh

The taxi industry is a unique industry but that does not mean supply and demand should not be less important than any other industry.

Like any other sole trader a taxi person can see potential in a market. When demand is high there is potential for large income. When demand is low that potential isn’t there. This applies across the board.

People can (and always should be) allowed to enter the market based on the potential they see. If they go in without any sound business plan or unrealistic ideas of what they can expect to get out of it then that’s down to them and the decisions they make.

Driving a taxi is a none skilled job. Expecting high wages out as a result is unrealistic. By going in as a sole trader you lose that right of a minimum wage. That’s the risk you take. But that risk is off set with the potential of higher earnings. No of these are guaranteed and no is owed anything.

No one is entitled to a living.

Samson

kearnsr wrote: »

No one is entitled to a living.

Can you expand on this point?

amtaxi

kearnsr wrote: »

Driving a taxi is a none skilled job. Expecting high wages out as a result is unrealistic. By going in as a sole trader you lose that right of a minimum wage. That’s the risk you take. But that risk is off set with the potential of higher earnings. No of these are guaranteed and no is owed anything.

No one is entitled to a living.

The major difference between taxi drivers and other sole traders is that they are regulated in so far as they can only charge a certain maximum fare. Other sole traders like your basic local shop can fix their own prices on most of the goods they supply - they can increase their prices if their costs increase - taxi drivers can't. I'm not suggesting that taxis should increase their costs just pointing out a difference. In the current ecomonic climate the taxi industry is the only industry when there is a steady flow of people entering the market - this is down to a number of reasons:
1. Encouragement by dept of social welfare for men to get PSVs (answer you don't want to drive a taxi and you're told that it doesn't seem like you're actively seeking employment).
2. Grants given to jobseekers in the form of BTEA to start up their own business - even the Goodbody report agreed that this should not be happening as it is against the purpose of this self-employment scheme and is having a negative impact on the industry and creates unfair competition.
3. Too easy to get a taxi licence - god we all know certain elements of our society who should not be driving taxis.
4. Total lack of proper enforcement of regulations.

I accept that there is no guarantee when you work for yourself, I'm not looking for the high wages, but when I work a 70 hour week I would like to be able to earn the equivanent of the minimum wage.

"NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO A LIVING"? Don't really understand your point every citizen of Ireland employed or not is entitled to have money to live be it employed, selfemployed or unemployed

oisindoyle

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

It depends on your definition of faster -- if you mean "more ticks/min", then yes it does. If you mean "more ticks/km", then no it doesn't.

Really ???? Please eloborate then .

amtaxi

oisindoyle wrote: »

Really ???? Please eloborate then .

The best way to explain is -
1. Travel distance 5 miles at 60MPH takes 12mins Cost e.g. €9.10
2. Travel distance 5 miles at 30PMH takes 24mins Cost same €9.10

Meter cost still the same because is charged on distance - may appear to be clocking up faster but this is because the vehicle is travelling faster. Only instance where meter charges time is when vehicle is travelling at 21KPM or slower i.e. stopped or stuck in heavy traffic - hope this helps

meathstevie

kearnsr wrote: »

The taxi industry is a unique industry but that does not mean supply and demand should not be less important than any other industry.

Like any other sole trader a taxi person can see potential in a market. When demand is high there is potential for large income. When demand is low that potential isn’t there. This applies across the board.

People can (and always should be) allowed to enter the market based on the potential they see. If they go in without any sound business plan or unrealistic ideas of what they can expect to get out of it then that’s down to them and the decisions they make.

Driving a taxi is a none skilled job. Expecting high wages out as a result is unrealistic. By going in as a sole trader you lose that right of a minimum wage. That’s the risk you take. But that risk is off set with the potential of higher earnings. No of these are guaranteed and no is owed anything.

No one is entitled to a living.

I'd challenge anyone who thinks driving a taxi is a none skilled job. If your communication skills aren't up to scratch you'll only be driving between two destinations : from one row to the next.

Spook_ie

Carawaystick wrote: »

1. Domestic electricity and gas supply are the same as taxi's. there is a maximum price set and defined quality levels also. New entrants can enter the market if they think they can make a profit.

2. There was a problem with ordinary driving licenses. no-one suggested introducing a moratorium. The extra cost of the extra licenses can deal with applying the new standards to the extra licenses.

3.
4. But "enough profits to live on and re-invest in their taxi's" is as long as piece of string. Some people will need more to live on than thers - like someone who bought their house 20 years ago vs last year at the top of the boom - for a reasonably uncontentious difference in a person's fixed outgoings. How do you set the price of a new taxi in a falling market. How often do you re-adjust the price?

5. the age of cars is a cop out in defining the standard of a car. A 25 year old Merc could easily be of a better standard to a 8.5 year old compact saloon.
The govt just increased fuel costs by more than 5% this afternoon, OPEC did a lot more over the last few years... Black taxi's in Scotland belfast and England are distinctive enough without signs.....

6. I just disagree. I see no issue with part time drivers as long as their cars meet the objective standards and driver passes the same knowledge test. What about semi-retired drivers who only operate during profitable times and live off savings or a pension for the rest of the time for example?

7. Introducing a high barrier to entry would reduce the number of taxi drivers. I thought this is what most taxi drivers want?

8. I don't see this issue of holding a license for an amount of time solving anything. If you pass the test, the govt have decided you are a competent driver. How does passing a test, not driving for x years make you any better than some one who passed the test drove for x-1 years?
I'd say EU law would prevent any discrimination on license holders nationality. There is no requirement on any eu license holder to exchange it for the duration of the license. What about a taxi driver driving in Lifford and area, but living in Strabane? they could not get an Irish license
The govt should run the penalty points system to account for at least other EU licenses, the driver number is marked 5 on EU licenses. I presume there is a record of the address on the taxi license application, which needs to be reasonably current. It's not beyond the wit of man to deal with this problem.

9.
10. The HSA -Health and Safety Authority, not the HSE - The HSE can't even spell, I wouldn't rely on them to do anything.
I thought the HSA were busybodies enough to want to get involved before a serious injury. They wanted us (in a previous job) to take unreal precautions in case materiel clearly marked as safe (by the multinational manufacturer with deep pockets to sue) to use latex gloves - even thought they can cause a much worse reaction.....

There's a lot of buck passing regarding ranks, which needs to be sorted out by someone.

1 Not in the slightest way the same thing, energy suppy is capable of multiple customers at the same time, yet to see a taxi thats capable of doing that

2 Still needs the temporary moritorium while the TR etc. employ yet more consultants and prevarication, temporary moritorium and sort the whole mess out

6 Part time double jobbers are just an anathma to full time taxi drivers, do you the public want a full time and professional service or do you want the hotch potch you have now?

7. There have been several opportunities to implement this in the last 3 years
The 9 year rule could have been brought in for "replacement" taxis instead of waiting till 2012, in other words if you repaced your taxi ( of your own will) prior to 2012 then it should have conformed to the new specs, the "new" taxi operators from 1/1/2009 (plate numbers in excess of 45000) was originaly specified as ALL new entrants from 1/1/2009 ie even those who rented a plate or brought a 2nd hand plate, it was changed so that if you entered the market after 1/1/2009 but purchased a 2nd user plate ( below 45000 ) then you could exempt yourself from the 9 year rule until 2012.

8 I don't see any reason why having a PSV license shouldn't include some kind of driving test to prove that you're capable of multitasking in a taxi enviroment ( it isn't just driving! ) you've all seen "ordinary" drivers, totaly incapable of driving a car with a minor distraction like changing the radio station, try doing it with 4 drunks, yelling in your ear, constantly turning the vol up changing the channel, turning round to talk to their mates in the back and knocking either your arm or the car out of gear, people messing and opening doors at 60Kph, winding down windows for a breath of fresh air and then puking down the side of the car or a combination of them. As to living outside the area you are required to have a TC2 form from the Irish revenue if you're resident outside the area can you get one? As you say it's not without solutions but they aren't forthcoming

Spook_ie

amtaxi wrote: »

The best way to explain is -
1. Travel distance 5 miles at 60MPH takes 12mins Cost e.g. €9.10
2. Travel distance 5 miles at 30PMH takes 24mins Cost same €9.10

Meter cost still the same because is charged on distance - may appear to be clocking up faster but this is because the vehicle is travelling faster. Only instance where meter charges time is when vehicle is travelling at 21KPM or slower i.e. stopped or stuck in heavy traffic - hope this helps

Actualy it would take 5 mins to travel 5 miles at 60 mph but I agree with your explanation...:P

maggy_thatcher

Spook_ie wrote: »

6 Part time double jobbers are just an anathma to full time taxi drivers, do you the public want a full time and professional service or do you want the hotch potch you have now?

The problem with banning part-timers is it means either:

1 - you have to have enough taxis to cope with peak demand at off-peak times -- meaning too many workers for not enough work
or
2 - We're back to the bad-old days of queuing for hours to wait for enough taxis at peak times as there are only enough drivers for off-peak usage.

Which option do you prefer? Personally I prefer option 3 -- allow part-timers to come at peak times.

bk

Spook_ie wrote: »

AFAIK The Gresham rank works on the basis of, drive up see an empty space on either side and pull in, enquire ( yell out " who's holding last" ) who was last in the Q, then when you get to 2nd you direct the next punter to the guy in front of you and you then become 1st in the Q, in the meantime if anyone else joins the rank they then become last. Never worked it to be honest, but it sounds like a complete mess up, can't see why it doesn't just work like a straight rank with a bend in it!

Sorry to go OT, but just have to say that from the point of view of a punter, the Gresham rank is a disaster. It is very annoying going up to the rank and not knowing what taxi you should be getting and having to ask the lads and even a little intimidating as I've seen arguments break out there between drivers.

I've spoken to a few women who wont go near that rank and will walk further to get a taxi at a different rank.

Stupido

A gripe of mine, I have noticed this a few times (not always I must add, but common enough).

When paying, the drivers (in these cases all middle aged Irish drivers) are very slow to give you your change, messing about with coins, all in the hope that you just say "that's ok, keep the change". This annoys me. If I want to tip I should have the right to decide. When this happens I make a point of not tipping.

Case point.
Experience two weeks ago. Taxi from airport to south county Dublin. €70 (if you think taxi from city centre at 2am this weekend cost €16 this is a staggering price). Charged €3 for M50 toll. After asking for a reciept (he was not happy about this) he did the usual with the change, left me short, jumping out of car when my companion went to get bags out of car. I had to stop him leaving and ask for my 55c, which he was not giving me. Needless to say he got smart and gave it to me all in 1c and 2c coins.

Service with a smile?


It is experiences like this that leaves mixed sympathies when it comes to taxi disputes.

Spook_ie

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

The problem with banning part-timers is it means either:

1 - you have to have enough taxis to cope with peak demand at off-peak times -- meaning too many workers for not enough work
or
2 - We're back to the bad-old days of queuing for hours to wait for enough taxis at peak times as there are only enough drivers for off-peak usage.

Which option do you prefer? Personally I prefer option 3 -- allow part-timers to come at peak times.

Sort of agree with you, but if you go into Tescos do you expect them to NEVER have a queue at the checkouts, and as I've said before I would far prefer to compete with a 1000 full time taxi drivers on a level playing field ( so that it will find it's own level ) than a 1000 part time double jobbers who distort the market

maggy_thatcher

Spook_ie wrote: »

Sort of agree with you, but if you go into Tescos do you expect them to NEVER have a queue at the checkouts, and as I've said before I would far prefer to compete with a 1000 full time taxi drivers on a level playing field ( so that it will find it's own level ) than a 1000 part time double jobbers who distort the market

Tesco's have part-time workers at the checkouts at peak time. While never having to queue can't work due to physical space constraints, you generally find that the busier the store gets the more checkouts are open.

Another option that might work would be to have a centralized "shift" operator for taxis - who dictates which taxi operates where and when -- which is how the Tesco checkouts are managed -- would you be happy being told when and where you were to work though?

gjim

it cannot work like any other retail/service industry BECAUSE it is price regulated as well as quality regulated

I know why you're forced to start with the suggestion that taxi driving is somehow fundamentally different to all other commercial activities even though that claim is patently false. Practically every industry in the country is experiencing shrinking revenues; the response is the same - cut jobs and/or cut wages. Taxi driving is a NOT special case in any way and taxi drivers are simply experiencing what is being experienced everywhere by working people.

The "reason" you've identified which makes the taxi business different to ALL others is simply false. There's a degree of quality regulation in the supply of every single consumer service/good. There is NOTHING different about the taxi business in this regard. And there is no-end of services/retail industry where price AND quality is regulated. Even if the authorities don't specify a price, the market generally imposes a price cap on suppliers. In fact, the price control artificially inflates the prices when it comes to taxis; if you didn't have it for taxis you'd be earning even less and I assume you'd be straight out on the streets demanding that a "fair price" be imposed.

This claim to "uniqueness" is always fundamental when a commercial sector comes looking to be shielded from economic reality by the government. For the farmers it was that food supply was basic and unique, for manufacturers there's usually a bit of patriotism thrown into the mix (a tactic I see the taxi drivers use also) - "we need to protect Ireland's vital X industry", for the pharmacists it was their "unique" position as heath care providers, similarly the Irish pub is apparently "unique" and needs to be protected from competition, etc. etc.

In other words, we've heard pretty much EVERY single excuse why job "X" is unique and needs protection from the evil "market forces" but unfortunately for you the taxi drivers' claims on uniqueness are not only factually incorrect (like most such claims) but also lack any sort of emotional/political traction (unlike the supply of food, for example).

gjim

Actually my real interest is in exploring what the taxi drivers actually want done; they always seem to get somewhat vague in demanding a "review". The fundamental problem/issue here is SHRINKING revenue - taxi drivers seemed happy enough with the rules before last year when the economy is booming. There is nothing a "review" can do to reverse this fall in revenue. You may as well propose a review on the law of gravity given how many people hurt themselves tripping/falling. So the only way of improving the lot of some taxi drivers is to force others out of the business. This is the basic contradiction at the heart of the taxi drivers dispute.

And to be fair, many of the rest of your points are reasonable and well made. It's just that your basic gripe (i.e. driving a taxi is fundamentally different to the supply of consumer goods/services) is unfounded

Ham'nd'egger

gjim wrote: »

Actually my real interest is in exploring what the taxi drivers actually want done; they always seem to get somewhat vague in demanding a "review". The fundamental problem/issue here is SHRINKING revenue - taxi drivers seemed happy enough with the rules before last year when the economy is booming. There is nothing a "review" can do to reverse this fall in revenue. You may as well propose a review on the law of gravity given how many people hurt themselves tripping/falling. So the only way of improving the lot of some taxi drivers is to force others out of the business. This is the basic contradiction at the heart of the taxi drivers dispute.

And to be fair, many of the rest of your points are reasonable and well made. It's just that your basic gripe (i.e. driving a taxi is fundamentally different to the supply of consumer goods/services) is unfounded

On the first paragraph, drivers and driver unions have been actually asking for this and noting that changes and implementation of standards were needed for several years now in other to allow drivers to maintain some degree of net income and to improve the standard of driver out there. A trawl through the archives of sites like Boards.ie will show you pages and pages of drivers who have been saying as such for some years now. To look at the first pages of the recent Goodbody Report tells us that many drivers are working over the EU directive week of 48 hours, and that drivers incomes are down by 5% since 2005 (Page 8), even with fare revisions and working longer hours (Again, Page 8). This shows that the State even has accepted this as fact and yet Kathleen fiddles as Rome burns.

The mentality of needing more taxis on the road on the sole or primary premise of having to wait longer coming home on a Saturday has been taken (And still is, let it be noted) to the max now and notwithstanding the current economic strife in the Nation, it is at the complete detriment of the other 100 hours of the week. This is just not sound rational economics no matter how you look at it. While I am in agreement that part time workers are essential in the trade, the problem here is once again, some proper regulation of what is going on and how many at any one time. Somebody make the point about Tesco's opening more tills if it's busy; Tesco's may well have this staff on other duties packing shelves or in the stores for the rest of the day and they are called into assist if needed; Tescos may well just give them 10 hours work a week and they do not pay them for 30 hours on the off chance it gets busy and they certainly won't open a shop to trade for just 6 hours a week or when the GAA finals are on But overall, Tesco's have people on top to make these calls. In the taxi industry, nobody is there to look out for the markets punters or workers and manage it as best they can.

On your last point, Jim; most drivers are unable to leave the industry due to social welfare so there is no mechanism for drivers to leave the trade. As such there is no means for this "market will level out" economic principle to actually take place; this has been well thrashed out and not dealt with by the State.

gjim

Hi Ham&Egger, you haven't addressed the real contradiction in this campaign. Like many areas of the economy, overall taxi revenue is falling. The only way to improve the income of SOME taxi drivers is to reduce the overall number of taxi drivers who are sharing this shrinking revenue; this is simple mathematics which cannot be avoided.

There is simply no other way to improve the income of taxi drivers since it all has to come from this fixed (and shrinking) pie. Everything else is a distraction - no matter what new rules, restrictions and regulations are brought in, unless the number of taxi drivers actually falls there will be no improvement in living standards for the rest. In effect the taxi drivers campaign - to succeed - must force a significant number of drivers out of the business. This is the basic contradiction that I can't get my head around - it's effectively a campaign by taxi drivers to get the government to force some of their number out of the business to improve the lot of the rest.

The problem no individual taxi driver wants to be forced out - if they did they can leave voluntarily anyway - but they want some unspecified others - part-timers, foreigners, new taxi-drivers, drivers with older cars, etc. - to be forced to take the pain for the benefit of the rest. You cannot win with this approach (normally in industrial relations when given the option of redundencies for a few or a cut income for everyone, the workers favour the latter). Unfortunately you are forced into this position by economic reality and the fact that it seems that there is no score for further income cuts if it is correct that most taxi drivers are earning significantly under the minimum wage anyway.

I'm not trying to beat down taxi drivers here; having your income cut is not pleasant for anyone and I don't really blame anyone for trying to campaign to improve their lot. The problem is that your position is completely hopeless given the above contradiction and I believe will achieve nothing. That's my unemotional read on your situation, sorry.

silverside

I heard a radio ad advertising a number to call for 20% off Dublin taxi rates (cant remember number)

I also see queues of cabs at most taxi ranks at various times

I hear various people commenting about the expense of taxis

This to me indicates excess of supply over demand so logically prices should fall and/or taxi drivers should leave the industry until the market clears...

I dont see any big barriers to entry (buy a decent car, and pass the PSV exam, which doesnt seem that hard in comparison to London where learning the "knowledge" can take years) so no real reason for taxi drivers to be earning big money.

RedPlanet

I agree with gjim and silverside on this.
Another thing the OP omitted, was that it's the maximum price that's set by the regulator, taxi's are free to charge less.

Spook_ie

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Tesco's have part-time workers at the checkouts at peak time. While never having to queue can't work due to physical space constraints, you generally find that the busier the store gets the more checkouts are open.

Another option that might work would be to have a centralized "shift" operator for taxis - who dictates which taxi operates where and when -- which is how the Tesco checkouts are managed -- would you be happy being told when and where you were to work though?

I already am, it,s called trying to run a business :mad:

Spook_ie

Nobody is asking for the government to do anything other than what was mandated in 2000 and 2003, so far all the balony given out by the government ( via the TR ) is

1 A taxi numbering system that allows for any taxi, anywhere in Ireland, to work anywhere it likes in Ireland, subject to the driver having the right ID card ( which is enforced by 9 people! ) odds on getting caught 10000:1 or there abouts assuming they work 8 hour shifts ( odds on dying in a drowning accident 9000:1 just to compare! )

2 A requirement to carry a Fire Extinguisher, 1st Aid Kit, Pen/pencil and paper, Reflective Jacket and Triangle, Torch

3 A requirement that taxis be less than 9 years old on renewal from 1/1/2012, my argument was and always has been that it should have been on renewal since 1/1/2008, as it is now even new entrants who buy a 2nd hand plate can avail of the 2012 date

4 A complete disregard of Section 36 (still ) which would allow for those with serious convictions to be disallowed a PSV licence

5 Out of all the people arguing that taxi driving is like any other business, only ONE has come up with a business that is price regulated ( energy supply ) and that isn't the same, as energy supply can be to multiple customers at the same time, taxis are one customer at a time, many people have said that business's are price capped by supply and demand, OK goes back to point 1 let the taxis set their own rates, if you want taxi driving to be run under free economy rukes then make it a free economy, I'll compete willingly, but if you're not prepared to allow us to encompass free economy then admit ( even if it's to yourself ) the taxi industry is different

More to follow, but I'm tired and I need my strength to try and avoid snotty bastards sneezing and coughing all over me in the cab

maggy_thatcher

Spook_ie wrote: »

I already am, it,s called trying to run a business :mad:

I meant a completely centralized taxi operator service that dictated when and where all X thousand of you are at any time?

maggy_thatcher

Spook_ie wrote: »

5 Out of all the people arguing that taxi driving is like any other business, only ONE has come up with a business that is price regulated ( energy supply ) and that isn't the same, as energy supply can be to multiple customers at the same time, taxis are one customer at a time, many people have said that business's are price capped by supply and demand, OK goes back to point 1 let the taxis set their own rates, if you want taxi driving to be run under free economy rukes then make it a free economy, I'll compete willingly, but if you're not prepared to allow us to encompass free economy then admit ( even if it's to yourself ) the taxi industry is different

1. While energy supply can be sent to multiple customers at the same time, there is still a finite capacity - the grid is only designed to handle so much at any one time.
2. Telecoms are price regulated -- and there is cell-capacity in a similar sense.
3. Taxis can set their own rate -- up to a specific cap. I do agree that they need to be allowed to advertise this better.

Spook_ie wrote: »

More to follow, but I'm tired and I need my strength to try and avoid snotty bastards sneezing and coughing all over me in the cab

That and go and make a fortune anywhere the lazy-ass bus drivers aren't doing their job?

budfox

I have read this thread with much interest. There are some issues that I wasn't familar with and it gave a good insight from a drivers perspective. I've no doubt that it is very difficult to make a living now from it or one is working much greater hours to make up the same level of income. Fares gone up, look fuel and running costs have gone up too so no issues there. Running a car is not cheap anyhow...

Some comments from a punters perspective.

I travel a lot and use taxis several times a week. I find 95% of drivers to be affable, decent fellows who keep their cars clean and take the most direct route. In the last six months I have left glasses/mobile in the car and the drivers dropped them back to me.....fantastic service. In 8 years travelling, only been let down twice on early morning pick ups. In fact, I regularly get the same lads and one or two of them I know well come in to refill their tea mug while I'm getting my bags together...

I personally think that the regulator (like many other Irish regulators, ref: Banking scandal, nursing home scandal etc etc) is a nonsense. Under staffed and no real ability to enforce...the issue around criminals obtaining licences is scandalous. Would I let my partner or any female friends into a taxi and go home alone that I hadn't called from a company or taking the licence plate number off of? Not a chance...

It is unfortunate that like every business the less honourable ones tarnish the others in a trade.

My pet hates?

Radios blaring in the car and a tut when you ask it to be turned down (I always tell the driver before I make/take a mobile call just out of politeness/respect)

The airport:

Minimum fare on the meter before you've even opened the door/boot and then clicking up a notch when you've gone about 20 feet. It was clearly turned on before he reached the top of the queue. I now refuse to get into them if the meter is already on before they've gotten out of the car and take the next car. (you can see the meter from the back of the car if you look closely enough).

Taxi guys working for DAA are friendly enough but they turn a blind eye to everything going on. In fact they don't give a toss..their job is to ensure orderly queing on both sides...

Gas this one....Waiting to hear your accent before they hit the meter...if you're in a suit with a carry on some think you're from the UK or somewhere..ching ching...keep an eye on the minimum fares and extras when there's an English hen party in the queue...same with the Polish/Romanians as they can be easily spotted. DAA didn't put up the minumum fare posters for the sake of it...

Last year a driver charged me the pick up fee at the airport rank. I queried it and he said it was the charge for being "called up from the holding area". I said that this charge had been removed from the fare structure for airport journeys and he replied that he wasn't doing anything illegal and I didn't have to pay it. I said I wouldn't, he got abusive. (Being under some other pressure at the time I didn't get around to making a complaint. I know, I know..I realise I should have for the sake of both the other drivers and customers..in fact I still have the receipt but it doesn't have the charge so his word against mine. He removed it from the meter rapid..)

Another guy kept his hand no the gear shift (merc) and the meter was down at the ashtray...I twigged it..we got to Maxol, I asked him to move his hand and he'd over 7 euros on the meter...I just brought him back to the departures and got out...he pretended there was a mistake on a meter as he forgot to cancel his last fare. From where? What, a pick up from ALSAA? He zeroed the meter pretty quick and said his receipt machine was out of paper/ink. No point pursuing that one....his word against mine.

Sitting in the car, popping the boot lid without even getting out to assist with bags. Doing the same when you complete your journey...and expecting a tip.

Not having adequate change (I mean say change out of a 50 for a 15 euro or so fare), making a big deal about it and then when I offered to go to the a Spar to get change, kept the meter running!! Normally I always have change for small local trips to the pub. I understand security issues with holding change and that a couple of passengers can clean you out with large notes but it's up to the driver to have change, same way you expect it in your shop or pub...not a big bug bear as I try to have more or less the right change...

The above are specific examples and look, are only a few drivers out of the many I come across...as I said, are decent...

Now for the belter. Haven't been in town in a while...out with a few lads..not jarred cos up the next morning.....

Two weekends in town at Molly Malone, bottom of Grafton St around 0230-0300. I was approaching the statue and spotted a couple of taxis sitting there with lights off, windows open, arm on the window ledge. Thought, great. They're touting for some business...I asked the first driver was he free and he said no that he was waiting on a fare. I asked how long he might be waiting as my trip wouldn't be long (I said he should be back in max 20 minutes) and he replied no as the "job was worth 50 euros to him". Yea right I thought and knew what was coming. Second guy had the same story. As did the third. I went to the rank and took my place in the queue. The drivers weren't waiting long and one by one punters had discussions with them and off they went...longer discussions than "My name is Mr XXXX and I booked you earlier". They were obviously prepared to pay the 50 euros. Not my imagination as it happens on College Green also. I think this is the pits. Some guys are not happy to just make a living during the peak time but go out and roll the dice with a couple of punters who are desperate to get home and don't mind paying the price, locked or otherwise. A decent tip is fine but 50 euros for a 5 mile round trip is just ransom money....four of these a night and now you're talking...no minimum wage in that...

Took my place in the queue. Twice drivers with lights on passed by the queue slowly, trying to suss out who was next in line but then drove off..lovely...no inference with this but interesting that the four drivers (including mine) I observed who came straight to the rank and took the next fare in line were all foreign. Take your pick at that time of night and yes, I understand that nobody wants a drunk in their car but come on...cherry picking passengers when they're really needed. It was circa 0230hrs Saturday night....

Maybe when I'm at a rank in Dawson St, I'll skip all the clapped out Carina's and just head for Merc S class'?

No regulators around to police this late nite behaviour but perhaps we should have a name and shame wall? We all have camera phones...

My taxi last night said that he was more than aware of this type of going on.....

Rant over and I repeat my point that most of the drivers I come across are great. Even when you've a few pints on board and a smelly takeaway with you (I always put it in the boot!)...!!!!

Not much effort would rid us of the scroungers I mention above...

Sorry if this is posted in the wrong section and feel free to delete this post if so....


A

baloonatic

Very interesting post there,

Just a point on the maximum fare charge mentioned above, it should not be seen as the just the maximum amount that a driver can charge which infers that the driver is trying to milk the customer.

A fairer and more appropriate distinction is that is is a predetermined fare charge, set by the regulator which is fair to both passenger and driver.

The driver may not charge over that amount, and the customer is obliged to pay the full amount. Both conditions may be waived upon a mutual agreement before the journey begins.

Just my 2 cents.

dunnariogh

ive just recieved my badge and license,and am going to rent a taxi before i turn my car into one,im just wondering if it is better to work from a taxi company or just go solo,also when i collected my badge i only recieved a badge and a sheet of paper,how do i obtain the photo id,any advice would be appreciated,thks