If you wanted to convert an atheist who wanted to believe....

Otaku Girl

....what argument/stategy would you use?Bearing in mind the said atheist is atheist soley due to logical reasons not because God did'nt get her/him a pony nor to sound pretentious or pseudo intellectual.

PDN

Otaku Girl wrote: »

....what argument/stategy would you use?Bearing in mind the said atheist is atheist soley due to logical reasons not because God did'nt get her/him a pony nor to sound pretentious or pseudo intellectual.

I've never come across an atheist whose disbelief really was based solely on logical reasons.

However, in such a hypothetical situation I would encourage them to simply spend time with some real Christians. Seeing real Christianity in action is more powerful than arguing.

Rev Hellfire

PDN wrote: »

However, in such a hypothetical situation I would encourage them to simply spend time with some real Christians. Seeing real Christianity in action is more powerful than arguing.

That can be a bit of a two edge sword

I'll be cheeky and throw my lot in as well. I'd imagine if you really wanted to foster a belief in god you'll need to take them from their cosy luxurious western existence and introduce them to a life of squalor and despair. There's no more fertile ground.

Simply put, as long as they're happy in their current existence they'll have no reason to need a god.

angelfalling

I've never come across an atheist whose disbelief really was based solely on logical reasons.

LOL, what? What reasons do you normally hear, then? I've never heard an atheist who had disbelief that was not based on logical reasons (that is I have never met an atheist who doesn't believe in god because they are poor, for example).

robindch

PDN wrote: »

I've never come across an atheist whose disbelief really was based solely on logical reasons.

Hi, I'm Robin -- pleased to meet you!

Nodin

PDN wrote: »

I've never come across an atheist whose disbelief really was based solely on logical reasons.

And yet, here we are.....

Beruthiel

PDN wrote: »

I've never come across an atheist whose disbelief really was based solely on logical reasons.

You are so very, very wrong there PDN.

JimiTime

EDIT: Apologies, I really just put 'seconded' to wind the atheists up. It was just too tempting:). Sorry again, a bad example of christian behaviour on my part.:o

Gambler

JimiTime wrote: »

PDN wrote: »

I've never come across an atheist whose disbelief really was based solely on logical reasons.

Seconded.

Huh? I'd love to know what reasons other than "solely logical" I might have for not believing in god??

seanybiker

robindch wrote: »

Hi, I'm Robin -- pleased to meet you!

me and you must be the only ones lol

ScissorPaperRock

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

That can be a bit of a two edge sword

I'll be cheeky and throw my lot in as well. I'd imagine if you really wanted to foster a belief in god you'll need to take them from their cosy luxurious western existence and introduce them to a life of squalor and despair. There's no more fertile ground.

Simply put, as long as they're happy in their current existence they'll have no reason to need a god.

Wait... what? How would that convince anyone? Surely if you took someone from their wealthy life and showed them a life of squalor and despair they'd be more inclined to think there really is no god? I mean, I'd be wondering, what good is this god doing then?

Also, it's a little manipulative. Just wrong really.

PDN

angelfalling wrote: »

LOL, what? What reasons do you normally hear, then? I've never heard an atheist who had disbelief that was not based on logical reasons (that is I have never met an atheist who doesn't believe in god because they are poor, for example).

I've encountered the following reasons:
a) "My parents brought me up as an atheist".
b) "Because the Catholic Church burnt Copernicus at the stake."
c) "god is stupid, it is a good reason. i don't think not believing in god requires any explanation, it pretty bleeding obvious. you're an atheist aren't you, don't you think god is stupid. that believing in god is stupid, i thinks its perfectly good 3 word answer."
d) "Because the KGB would have pulled my fingernails out one by one unless I became an atheist."
e) "Because my great-grandmother died when I was a child."
f) "Because I want to shag who I want, when I want, and religion gets in the way of that."

philologos

I actually agree with PDN, I've found the reasons people have given for Christianity to be far more reasonable than anything I've heard from an atheist. Infact most atheists are reluctant to give reasons why they don't believe in a God for some reason.

Gambler

g) "Because even thought I was raised within a religion I was never comfortable with the idea of an all powerful being and when I reached a certain age (about 24) and spent some time seriously thinking about what I really believe I decided that the "evidence" for god didn't add up to a convincing argument for me.."

I believed in god growing up and then when I hit about 17\18 that changed to a belief in a "greater power" or something similar. My decision that I didn't believe in god was made after weighing up a lot of different opinions and what little evidence I could find in either direction.

In fact at the time I finally decided I was an atheist I was spending a lot of time around religious people (including a franciscan brother) who were all doing great work and whom I have great respect for both their compassion and their intelligence. I chatted about it a lot with all of them and I just didn't find myself convinced by any of their reasons for believing..

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

I've found the reasons people have given for Christianity to be far more reasonable than anything I've heard from an atheist.

In that case, I must politely suggest that you have failed to understood what us atheists have been saying.

Gambler

Jakkass wrote: »

Infact most atheists are reluctant to give reasons why they don't believe in a God for some reason.

It's a difficult thing to explain to be honest. How do you explain why you don't believe in something? Can you explain to me why you don't believe in the norse\greek\roman gods without either a) sounding like you're a condescending ass dismissing someone else's strongly held beliefs or b) basing your argument on the evidence you have for believing something else.

Most atheists will base their lack of belief argument on the lack of evidence in a god and the apparent evidence for alternative explanations for things that are outlined in the old testament.

philologos

robindch wrote: »

In that case, I must politely suggest that you have failed to understood what us atheists have been saying.

I'd argue the other way around concerning you (as atheists) and what Christians have been saying. Then again, that is only representative of our particular views on the God question

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

Infact most atheists are reluctant to give reasons why they don't believe in a God for some reason.

Really? In my experience you can't shut us up ...

kiffer

You see he meant 'met in person' not 'encountered on the net'.


Also for example, person e's great grandmother died which upset them greatly... and got then thinking about mortality, it doesn't matter how perfectly logical person e's thought process is from then on because it can be claimed that the root cause is emotional.

Winters

While your at them to believe the existence of a supreme higher power, be sure to also re-affirm their belief in the Easter bunny, Santa and the tooth fairy. Its essentially all the same.

PDN

Winters wrote: »

While your at them to prove the existance of a supreme higher power, be sure to also re-affirm their belief in the easter bunny, santa and the tooth fairy. Its essentially all the same.

Don't forget the 'existance' of trolls.

Rev Hellfire

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

Wait... what? How would that convince anyone? Surely if you took someone from their wealthy life and showed them a life of squalor and despair they'd be more inclined to think there really is no god? I mean, I'd be wondering, what good is this god doing then?

The reported rise in church attendance would suggest otherwise, at least as far as the recession is concerned.

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

Also, it's a little manipulative. Just wrong really.

Nothing wrong with been manipulative, you've just been manipulated to think so

Winters

PDN wrote: »

Don't forget the 'existance' of trolls.

Thats not trolling.

The OP is asking to change the belief that someone has through defying actual logic reasoning and common sense, therefore why is it too much to ask that he go one step further and change all his beliefs that are based upon logical and sound judgement? Is it because going that one step too far makes it sound ridiculous?

If going against logic and rational thinking is what it takes to believe in God, as the OP makes out, then surly believing in the Easter bunny and Santa clause, which are in essence illogical, would also be required. It is unreasonable to pick and choose what illogical being/forces are acceptable not not acceptable to believe in if you are trying to change a persons beliefs based on them to believing in a god as it being aginst logic. You need them to first believe in all illogical beings to believe truly in one.

angelfalling

ist who doesn't believe in god because they are poor, for example).
I've encountered the following reasons:
a) "My parents brought me up as an atheist".
b) "Because the Catholic Church burnt Copernicus at the stake."
c) "god is stupid, it is a good reason. i don't think not believing in god requires any explanation, it pretty bleeding obvious. you're an atheist aren't you, don't you think god is stupid. that believing in god is stupid, i thinks its perfectly good 3 word answer."
d) "Because the KGB would have pulled my fingernails out one by one unless I became an atheist."
e) "Because my great-grandmother died when I was a child."
f) "Because I want to shag who I want, when I want, and religion gets in the way of that."

Who are these people? I haven't really met them.
a) This makes sense. I hear this as a reason for being Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever as well. I don't think its any better of a reason to be those things, either.
b) Sounds fake.
c) It IS obvious, but I've never hear someone use the excuse "god is stupid" unless its someone vaguely illiterate on an internet forum.
d) er
e) This happens, sure.
f) I'm not fully convinced people who say these sort of things don't <i>believe</i> in god, they probably do, they just feel following religion causes too much guilt for them.


So, on to real reasons. Other than a lot of the obvious things in my life such as studying history and anthropology and it being just about impossible for me to take Christianity with any more weight than any other of the hundreds of religions in the world (that have a very easily followed timeline of evolution)... simply trying to find someone who has proof that the Bible is more than just a book is difficult. I have no reason to be a Christian because I don't believe the bible is anything more than a book written by man.

I have little reason to believe in God because I don't need the concept of God to explain what is still yet unknown to humankind. Which is the original reason we invented god in the first place.

PDN

Winters wrote: »

If going against logic and rational thinking is what it takes to believe in God, as the OP makes out, then surly believing in the Easter bunny and Santa clause, which are in essence illogical, would also be required. It is unreasonable to pick and choose what illogical being/forces are acceptable not not acceptable to believe in if you are trying to change a persons beliefs based on them to believing in a god as it being aginst logic. You need them to first believe in all illogical beings to believe truly in one.

Your first 'if' is false. So the rest of the paragraph is junk.

uncleoswald

Jakkass wrote: »

I actually agree with PDN, I've found the reasons people have given for Christianity to be far more reasonable than anything I've heard from an atheist. Infact most atheists are reluctant to give reasons why they don't believe in a God for some reason.

I almost spat out my tea when I read this. Flame much?

angelfalling

PDN, I'm quite curious- how do you logically and rationally explain the existence of God? That the universe is vast and complicated? That the world seemingly has some order? I can sometimes see why these are used as reasons (although I don't understand why rules/laws of the universe cannot just be without there being a creator... anyways), but its not enough. Beyond that, most Christians expect non-believers to accept the Bible is a book above all books, which is unsubstantiated.

Otaku Girl

:rolleyes: This is just so typical of the immature bitching between athiests and Christians. It has the makings of an interesting thread and it immediately turns into a cyber war.

So I'll ask ye again. How would you convert an atheist,whose disbelief is predicated purely by logical reasons, who wanted to believe believe in a theistic faith?

PDN

angelfalling wrote: »

Who are these people? I haven't really met them.

I have. These reasons were all given to me by atheists who have since converted to Christianity.

a) This makes sense. I hear this as a reason for being Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever as well. I don't think its any better of a reason to be those things, either.
b) Sounds fake.
c) It IS obvious, but I've never hear someone use the excuse "god is stupid" unless its someone vaguely illiterate on an internet forum.
d) er
e) This happens, sure.
f) I'm not fully convinced people who say these sort of things don't <i>believe</i> in god, they probably do, they just feel following religion causes too much guilt for them.

a) Exactly. It is a poor and illogical reason to adhere to any ideology. Therefore atheists who give this reason have not chosen their atheism on logical or rational grounds.
b) So, if you don't like my point you call me a liar? Way to go. :rolleyes:
c) It was someone an internet forum - one next door.
d) Er?
e) Yes, if your great-grandmother doesn't die before you then that would seem to be more a reason for complaint.
f) So they're not real atheists? OK.

PDN

angelfalling wrote: »

PDN, I'm quite curious- how do you logically and rationally explain the existence of God? That the universe is vast and complicated? That the world seemingly has some order? I can sometimes see why these are used as reasons (although I don't understand why rules/laws of the universe cannot just be without there being a creator... anyways), but its not enough. Beyond that, most Christians expect non-believers to accept the Bible is a book above all books, which is unsubstantiated.

I certainly don't expect non-believers to accept the Bible as a book above all books. I expect them to make every effort to rubbish the Bible as they don't like the implications it carries for their lifestyle.

I think you are confusing 2 separate issues:
a) Rationally and logically explaining God.
b) Reaching your belief in God (or indeed a belief in atheism) by rationality and logic alone.

The first is, I believe, the purpose of theology.
The second is a fool's errand. All of us make decisions for a whole multitude of reasons - emotional and logical. Some of us are honest enough to admit that this is the case - others are not.

Winters

PDN wrote: »

Your first 'if' is false. So the rest of the paragraph is junk.

Anyone who thinks rationally and logically would have a hard time believing in a supreme being for which no evidence exists bar that of devout single-minded followers who at various times throughout history he has allowed be persecuted murdered and he himself has wiped out at his own desire. A god so worried about his own image that he lays down commandments requiring people to worship him and death to those who do not. The fact that the only proof of existence is of one book written several hundred years after his apparent time(s) on this planet and strangely mirrors that of several other stories of various other gods that pre-date the story and that you must have absolute blind faith in order to believe in him...

Yea, Id say going against logic is required without a shadow of a doubt to believe in 'God'. There is no actual logical way you can explain the existence of god without using the cop out word "faith".

Zombrex

Winters wrote: »

If going against logic and rational thinking is what it takes to believe in God, as the OP makes out, then surly believing in the Easter bunny and Santa clause, which are in essence illogical, would also be required.

Only if a person already believes that God is as illogical a belief as the Easter bunny or Santa, which you can sort of take it that people here don't.

Saying that one belief that appears illogical is automatically as illogical or nonsensical as any other illogical belief is in itself some what illogical. There are degrees of how logical or illogical a belief is, there isn't simply logical beliefs and illogical beliefs. It depends on a number of factors such as the logic itself, evidence, support etc.

Gambler

Reaching your belief in God (or indeed a belief in atheism) by rationality and logic alone.

The second is a fool's errand. All of us make decisions for a whole multitude of reasons - emotional and logical. Some of us are honest enough to admit that this is the case - others are not.

I agree that emotion comes into play more (but not necessarily always) when deciding to believe in god (and I mean seriously considering what that means) but deciding that there is no god is not such a clear cut case.

There are some people who become and atheist out of a place of anger\grief and that's clearly an emotional decision. However there are also some who become atheists (I consider myself to be one of them) who have spent a lot of time considering the arguments on both sides and eventually coming to a conclusion without any emotional connotations.

For me personally it was a tough thing to set aside the emotional attachment to what is a very comforting thought. The idea of an all caring force that wants nothing but the best for us even if it's a hard lesson at times that's needed most is a very attractive idea and I completely understand why so many people nurture that belief within themselves. However when I took the emotion out of my decision then my set of beliefs became very clear to me..

Biro

Otaku Girl wrote: »

:rolleyes: This is just so typical of the immature bitching between athiests and Christians. It has the makings of an interesting thread and it immediately turns into a cyber war.

So I'll ask ye again. How would you convert an atheist,whose disbelief is predicated purely by logical reasons, who wanted to believe believe in a theistic faith?

Maybe we're just not intelligent enough. :rolleyes:
Yes, I'm still angry at that other thread. How childish of me.

Biro

Winters wrote: »

Anyone who thinks rationally and logically would have a hard time believing in a supreme being for which no evidence exists bar that of devout single-minded followers who at various times throughout history he has allowed be persecuted murdered and he himself has wiped out at his own desire. A god so worried about his own image that he lays down commandments requiring people to worship him and death to those who do not. The fact that the only proof of existence is of one book written several hundred years after his apparent time(s) on this planet and strangely mirrors that of several other stories of various other gods that pre-date the story and that you must have absolute blind faith in order to believe in him...

Yea, Id say going against logic is required without a shadow of a doubt to believe in 'God'. There is no actual logical way you can explain the existence of god without using the cop out word "faith".

Your arguement is tackling religion, not the concept of God as a being that exists outside all matter and time that we know of. And will MarkM16 please stop thanking all your posts like a sheep and post something using his own keyboard.

JimiTime

Otaku Girl wrote: »

:rolleyes: This is just so typical of the immature bitching between athiests and Christians. It has the makings of an interesting thread and it immediately turns into a cyber war.

Well I hope you have the honesty to look at what has actually happened. I see no Christian poster here bring up tooth fairies, santa etc. I've seen no Christian poster say that you can't be logical if you believe in atheism as a world view. What I have seen, is PDN detail his experience in relation to your first post, that 'He has not come across an atheist who is atheist on soley logical grounds'. Then it all kicked off. Sometimes its easy to just say there are two sides, and they are just as bad as each other. Its clearly 'some' atheists who are doing the stone throwing, and you'll find that the Christians have to deal with their beliefs etc being likened to santa etc.

Winters

Wicknight wrote: »

Only if a person already believes that God is as illogical a belief as the Easter bunny or Santa, which you can sort of take it that people here don't.

Saying that one belief that appears illogical is automatically as illogical or nonsensical as any other illogical belief is in itself some what illogical.

No actually, in my opinion would be the complete opposite. Trying to justify the existence of god by saying he isn't as illogical as Santa would be silly. You cant bend logic to suit your own beliefs. The reason the Easter bunny is so illogical is because it has been proved beyond doubt that he does not exist, so god is not as illogical as the Easter bunny would this be as he has not been proven incorrect beyond belief, as people still hold illogical irrational thinking?

People cant pick and choose what illogical beliefs are truth because they are somewhat less bull**** than others. People are just bending the lines of truth to fit their ideas then.

Biro wrote: »

Your arguement is tackling religion, not the concept of God as a being that exists outside all matter and time that we know of.

So to believe in it required blind faith which goes against logical thinking of people as there is no weight behind it except undocumented, inaccurate and unmeasurable ideas created by people who cannot even themselves comprehend them if they are 'outside all matter and time that we know of'

Gambler

JimiTime wrote: »

Well I hope you have the honesty to look at what has actually happened. I see no Christian poster here bring up tooth fairies, santa etc. I've seen no Christian poster say that you can't be logical if you believe in atheism as a world view. What I have seen, is PDN detail his experience in relation to your first post, that 'He has not come across an atheist who is atheist on soley logical grounds'. Then it all kicked off. Sometimes its easy to just say there are two sides, and they are just as bad as each other. Its clearly 'some' atheists who are doing the stone throwing, and you'll find that the Christians have to deal with their beliefs etc being likened to santa etc.

PDN wrote: »

I've never come across an atheist whose disbelief really was based solely on logical reasons.

Oh I'm sorry, I took this to be a bit of a sly dig, sort of a first stone as it were.. I should have realised it was a considerate response to a serious question that should never be taken badly by atheists who's decision has been hard thought out.

It's amazing how some people take offense at their opinions\"beliefs" being dismissed out of hand.

Biro

Winters wrote: »

No actually, in my opinion would be the complete opposite. You are trying to justify the existence of god by saying he isn't as illogical as Santa? You cant bend logic to suit your own beliefs. The reason the Easter bunny is so illogical is because it has been proved beyond doubt that he does not exist, so god is not as illogical as the Easter bunny would this be as he has not been proven incorrect beyond belief, as people still hold illogical irrational thinking?

You cant pick and choose what illogical beliefs are truth because they are somewhat less bull**** than others. Your bending the lines of truth to fit your ideas.



So to believe in it required blind faith which goes against logical thinking of people as there is no weight behind it except undocumented, inaccurate and unmeasurable ideas created by people who cannot even themselves comprehend them if they are 'outside all matter and time that we know of'

Again, we're not talking about religion here. Or Santa, although you clearly are.

mickoneill30

Winters wrote: »

The reason the Easter bunny is so illogical is because it has been proved beyond doubt that he does not exist

Can you link to that proof?

JimiTime

Otaku Girl wrote: »

....what argument/stategy would you use?Bearing in mind the said atheist is atheist soley due to logical reasons not because God did'nt get her/him a pony nor to sound pretentious or pseudo intellectual.

PDN wrote: »

I've never come across an atheist whose disbelief really was based solely on logical reasons.
.

Gambler wrote: »

Oh I'm sorry, I took this to be a bit of a sly dig, sort of a first stone as it were.. I should have realised it was a considerate response to a serious question that should never be taken badly by atheists who's decision has been hard thought out.

It's amazing how some people take offense at their opinions\"beliefs" being dismissed out of hand.

Hmmm. Did PDN dismiss someones opinions out of hand?*


*I detected sarcasm in your post, if in fact it wasn't sarcastic, please ignore the question above.

Otaku Girl

*Third time lucky*

So...ummm...is anyone going to attempt to answer my original question?

antiskeptic

Otaku Girl wrote: »

....what argument/stategy would you use?Bearing in mind the said atheist is atheist soley due to logical reasons not because God did'nt get her/him a pony nor to sound pretentious or pseudo intellectual.

Firstly, I'm not of the opinion its possible to convert someone to Christianity (although it might be possible to convert someone to a Christian religion). The only person who can convince an unbeliever that God exists, is God.

That said, there are things that can be done to aid and abet the process. Essentially this involves exposing a person to the gospel of God (as per his instruction). Given that unbelievers aren't likely to hang around listening to sermons on the subject, one way to deliver the message is to engage in conversations such as happen here - ones which deal with intellectual objections to God. The hope isn't that you can convince a person to become a believer, rather the conversation acts as a Trojan Horse for the delivery of the gospel message - the gospel being the power of God bringing the unbeliever to belief.

That said, whilst it isn't possible to prove God by argumentation, it is possible to stalemate the various objections a person has to God and his existance using rational, logical argumentation. In the measure that this is achieved, the unbeliever is left with the realisation that his unbelief is a choice of the heart - not of rational, reasoned argumentation.

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Hmmm. Did PDN dismiss someones opinions out of hand?

Actually all I said was that I hadn't actually met any atheists who had reached that position solely on logical or rational grounds. I didn't dismiss their beliefs out of hand, and I even attempted to address the OP's hypothetical question with a reasonable and polite answer.

However, as sometimes happens with atheists, they are so insecure that they throw a hissy fit if the mirror, mirror on the wall doesn't bow down and say, "Without a doubt, O atheists, you are the most rational of them all."

MatthewVII

Jakkass wrote: »

I've found the reasons people have given for Christianity to be far more reasonable than anything I've heard from an atheist.

In the spirit of PDN's shameless dig at atheists

Reasons for christianity

1) Because I was brought up that way and never bothered to ask any questions
2) Because in my school we were force-fed dogma, made learn chants and rituals and never given a choice
3) Because when everyday things happen I delude myself into thinking a God did it, even though it blatantly would have happened anyway
4) Because he listens to me when I talk and answers. Even though there is no way of distinguishing this from the Devil or frank psychosis. However, when others talk about such experiences and I don't agree with it, i will put it down to same and warn about temptation
5) Because religion must be real as I've constantly defended it on boards.ie. to step down now would make me look foolish
6) Because it's written in some book. Why would a writer lie?
7) Because I want to make my life miserable and waste what little time i have left on earth.

Winters

Biro wrote: »

Again, we're not talking about religion here. Or Santa, although you clearly are.

The discussion is changing the beliefs of an Atheist who believes in logical rational thinking. There is no actual logical way you can prove the existence of god without asking for blind faith in a supreme being 'that exists outside all matter and time that we know of'. Therefore it is impossible to logically prove the existence of an illogical being without first proving the existence of all illogical beings, such as Santa/Easter bunny.

Biro wrote: »

The concept of God [is] as a being that exists outside all matter and time that we know of.

Or it is a concept created by humans who at the time could not understand how the world around them worked. At one stage humans believed in a Sun God, Rain God etc. before we discovered how these actually worked and what they really were.

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Can you link to that proof?

Bunny's do not have opposable thumbs and therefore cannot carry baskets.

thebaldsoprano

The only real difference between someone like myself and friends who happen to be Christian as far as I can see is faith. They have it, I don't. How you'd go about building faith is probably best left to Christians though

Gambler

My last post on this as I appear to have angered the mod with my posts..

I've never come across an atheist whose disbelief really was based solely on logical reasons

Hmmm. Did PDN dismiss someones opinions out of hand?

Let me try this as a sentence and see if you think it might be something that a christian would take offence from. Please note that this is not something I believe in any way, just saying it to illustrate a point.

I've never come across a christian who's belief in god was based on anything other than fear and a lack of intelligent thought.

Now there are lots of Atheists who have said stuff like that and I would expect\understand a christian pulling them up on what I see as a complete dismissal of a chrsitians opinions\beliefs.

Biro

Winters wrote: »

The discussion is changing the beliefs of an Atheist who believes in logical rational thinking. There is no actual logical way you can prove the existence of god without asking for blind faith in a supreme being 'that exists outside all matter and time that we know of'. Therefore it is impossible to logically prove the existence of an illogical being without first proving the existence of all illogical beings, such as Santa/Easter bunny.

That's not true. There are many things you can't prove the existance of. For example, the edge of space. Does it have an edge? Or can it only have an edge if I can prove that Santa and the Easter bunny exist?

antiskeptic

Gambler wrote: »

Let me try this as a sentence and see if you think it might be something that a christian would take offence from. Please note that this is not something I believe in any way, just saying it to illustrate a point.

Compare a sentence without any perjoratives..

I've never come across an atheist whose disbelief really was based solely on logical reasons

..to one littered with them.

I've never come across a christian who's belief in god was based on anything other than fear and a lack of intelligent thought.

People aren't Mr. Spocks so there is no perjorative implied in their beliefs being based upon something other than logic alone.

Otaku Girl

antiskeptic wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not of the opinion its possible to convert someone to Christianity (although it might be possible to convert someone to a Christian religion). The only person who can convince an unbeliever that God exists, is God.

That said, there are things that can be done to aid and abet the process. Essentially this involves exposing a person to the gospel of God (as per his instruction). Given that unbelievers aren't likely to hang around listening to sermons on the subject, one way to deliver the message is to engage in conversations such as happen here - ones which deal with intellectual objections to God. The hope isn't that you can convince a person to become a believer, rather the conversation acts as a Trojan Horse for the delivery of the gospel message - the gospel being the power of God bringing the unbeliever to belief.

That said, whilst it isn't possible to prove God by argumentation, it is possible to stalemate the various objections a person has to God and his existance using rational, logical argumentation. In the measure that this is achieved, the unbeliever is left with the realisation that his unbelief is a choice of the heart - not of rational, reasoned argumentation.

Thanks for answering my question. So you believe the Christian debater is just an instrument of God in this aspect,if I'm following you correctly.