Nixer Cost

techyness

Hi all,

I am quoting a price for a nixer at the mo. Planning app for a standard single storey extention. Its been a while since I did a nixer. I was wondering what the going rate is these days? Its in Co. Dublin. Thanks!

ConfusedTech

You should have a read through some of the other threads, as you will see that there is a massive diversity on charging. At the end of the day it will depend on what you are giving the client.

Prices range from €800 up to 16% of the cost of the build.

Personally, I prefer to put the work in, Survey, meetings with client, options and then a good enough planning that can get a rough and good enough quote from a builder as the planning is going through. Let me say that for me €800 wouldnt do the job!

muffler

ConfusedTech wrote: »

Prices range from €800 up to 16% of the cost of the build.

:eek: Where would you see a figure of 16% for a nixer?

ConfusedTech

Whether or not a job is a Nickser, it still has to be a certain standard. 16%/18% would be one of the higher RIAI rates for a small job, and depending on experience and size of job, there is no reason why this cant be charged.

archtech

ConfusedTech wrote: »

Whether or not a job is a Nickser, it still has to be a certain standard. 16%/18% would be one of the higher RIAI rates for a small job, and depending on experience and size of job, there is no reason why this cant be charged.

I don't think there are too many RIAI practices currently charging those %s.
One would expect that PI cover is been provided as part of the service at those %s.

ConfusedTech

Sorry, lads, I have misled you unintentially. I meant 16/18% for full services, 30 to 40% of which would be up to planning submission. My bad!!! It was late when I posted.

archtech, I would agree with your comments, not a lot charging this much now anymore, although I do knwo one and they get the work!. I would think that 1.5 to 3.5K would be nearer the mark, depending on the work and size.

fatchops

16% - 18 % is a big percentage although I agree with 40% for Planning and perhaps a small fee for sketch design, generally though I would have thought the average fee for a small to medium office was around 8% - 10% and these are not nixer rates

Builderfromhell

Let me see if I understand this.
If your charging say 10% of the build costs as your fee, a house extension costing 50,000 would command a design, planning and tender docs fee of 5,000.

Seems optimistic to me.

muffler

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Seems optimistic to me.

Greed would be a better word

ConfusedTech

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Let me see if I understand this.
If your charging say 10% of the build costs as your fee, a house extension costing 50,000 would command a design, planning and tender docs fee of 5,000.

Seems optimistic to me.

No, that's not the way it works. Generally anything below 150 to 200K would be worked on by an RIBA/RIAI firm on an hourly basis. The full job would cost you between 15 to 30K, as, to be honest, it would not be worth a firm working on it for less. Then add VAT and expenses. A job needs that funding to be done well. BUT, a local architect or tech with no overheads, one that is fighting to get work in to survive and those who don't know what they are doing woudl charge a lot less. As I said, you can get plans done for as little as 800 plus costs. I have seen these prices and dont compete against them.

On the Tender side, for example, I cant see a Tender being done for less than 3.5K. Scope, Drawings, Meetings and Vetting. BUT, the client should gain that 3K back with a good tenderer/negotiater who works with the builders to get the best price.

Planning and basic design for a 50K or 100K extension should be approx 3.5K, if you provide an experienced service. If you dont have the experience, 1.5k, but you need to realise that without experience, you run risks that and experienced person does not. Experience brings understanding of councils, regulations and elements of constrcution that in reality dont work. You also learn how to read the client and their partner. (These are Dublin prices)

fatchops

I did say " these are not nixer rates" and you should price accordingly, naturally market ,experience, build rate and and project size will dictate what you ultimately charge. Build rate will vary around the country and therefore the price will vary.
As an aside to this particular topic does anyone know the going rate at the moment for contract work.

ConfusedTech

fatchops wrote: »

I did say " these are not nixer rates" and you should price accordingly, naturally market ,experience, build rate and and project size will dictate what you ultimately charge. Build rate will vary around the country and therefore the price will vary.
As an aside to this particular topic does anyone know the going rate at the moment for contract work.

Contract work for what? Home or in an office?

fatchops

more than likely home, but if you know the rate for both it would be great. The way things are going at the minute I think my best option is to find contract work but preferably do it from home, if it has to be done in an office, well and good.

ConfusedTech

fatchops wrote: »

more than likely home, but if you know the rate for both it would be great. The way things are going at the minute I think my best option is to find contract work but preferably do it from home, if it has to be done in an office, well and good.

For Techy work?

fatchops

yeah, tender packages

ConfusedTech

fatchops wrote: »

yeah, tender packages

To be honest, take what you can get. There is no going rate at the moment. It was approx 150 per day, but that is dropping again, as there are a lot of people available.

fatchops

Is that rate to cover for taxes, health stamp, expenses etc ?

ConfusedTech

fatchops wrote: »

Is that rate to cover for taxes, health stamp, expenses etc ?

It would be. You pay your own taxes and work out your own expenses when you work for yourself. PRSI is another thing when you are self employed. Generally costs for site visits etc are charged on to the client.

fatchops

Thats Grand thanks.

techyness

Hi all, Thanks for your thoughts on the matter. Its hard to know what to be quoting in the current market - it looks like others are of the same opinion... Went to meet the client - I have a feeling Ill be getting alot less then I would have in the past!

topcatcbr

Confused. Are you suggesting that people are willing to work at home for a practice for €150 per day. This seems like Very small money.

ConfusedTech

topcatcbr wrote: »

Confused. Are you suggesting that people are willing to work at home for a practice for €150 per day. This seems like Very small money.

Unfortunately, I am not suggesting it, it is a statement. People are doing that to keep work coming in. Unless you are in a different recession to me, I think that 150 per day is rather good compared to the dole rates and not to be snubbed.

pseudo-tech

topcatcbr wrote: »

Confused. Are you suggesting that people are willing to work at home for a practice for €150 per day. This seems like Very small money.

Topcat, your reality seems to be different that everyone elses. When you compare us with England where a qualified Architect may only earn 35K in certain contexts, there was a need for an adjustment here. A new reality!!!

fatchops

there seems to be a lot of sub-contractors now doing jobs not at cost just to keep things moving I think what you have to decide how much you need to have at the end of the day after all your deductions given the new budgetry constraints and doing everything legit, i think nixers ane about to become even more attractive especially with clients also looking for value for money

fatchops

fatchops wrote: »

there seems to be a lot of sub-contractors now doing jobs not at cost just to keep things moving

that should have read "at cost"

pseudo-tech

fatchops wrote: »

there seems to be a lot of sub-contractors now doing jobs not at cost just to keep things moving I think what you have to decide how much you need to have at the end of the day after all your deductions given the new budgetry constraints and doing everything legit, i think nixers ane about to become even more attractive especially with clients also looking for value for money

Until revenue catches up looking for unpaid taxes!!!!

ConfusedTech

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Topcat, your reality seems to be different that everyone elses. When you compare us with England where a qualified Architect may only earn 35K in certain contexts, there was a need for an adjustment here. A new reality!!!

Pseudo, who let you back in! Welcome back...

We are only dropping to the level we should have been at. As you note Pseudo, 35K is a rather good salary.

We should also all remember that when working from home, and for ones-self, you have a certain level of expenses that you can charge back off the Gross income. You also have the advantage of not having to travel to work, that cost and that time. Working from home will be the new black for those trying to save and get the best value out of their house and mortgage.

pseudo-tech

ConfusedTech wrote: »

We are only dropping to the level we should have been at. As you note Pseudo, 35K is a rather good salary.

We should also all remember that when working from home, and for ones-self, you have a certain level of expenses that you can charge back off the Gross income. You also have the advantage of not having to travel to work, that cost and that time. Working from home will be the new black for those trying to save and get the best value out of their house and mortgage.

Yes agree with you! However, we need to ensure that we are not promoting anything illegal (nixers).

ConfusedTech wrote: »

Pseudo, who let you back in! Welcome back...

I was given ten Hail Mary's!!!

ConfusedTech

Agreed Pseudo, Nixers, or 'Nicksers' as the real term states, does in fact refer to doing work free of tax and under the radar. hence the reason, I wont refer to them directly. In fact, I am not a fan of the people who do work this way as for the past ten years they have been undercutting good people like myself who have to charge VAT and account for tax on the work that we quote for. All too often, the €800 euro quote comes in from 'The guy around the corner', which I could not compete with. If I was not paying tax, well then maybe I could, but I dont work that way.

All my posts, and costs, directly refer to a person who is paying and accounting for tax, but a good self employed person can find ways of working costs against their income, which is a good way of saving a few bob and making 150 a day go a long way.

pseudo-tech

ConfusedTech wrote: »

Agreed Pseudo, Nixers, or 'Nicksers' as the real term states, does in fact refer to doing work free of tax and under the radar. hence the reason, I wont refer to them directly. In fact, I am not a fan of the people who do work this way as for the past ten years they have been undercutting good people like myself who have to charge VAT and account for tax on the work that we quote for. All too often, the €800 euro quote comes in from 'The guy around the corner', which I could not compete with. If I was not paying tax, well then maybe I could, but I dont work that way.

All my posts, and costs, directly refer to a person who is paying and accounting for tax, but a good self employed person can find ways of working costs against their income, which is a good way of saving a few bob and making 150 a day go a long way.

Agree with you! Also it is important to note from experience, that the "guy around the corner" who undertakes to do a job for €800.00 is providing an appalling service, even with the smallest of projects! Taking into account the number of meetings required, surveys of properties, re-designs, valid planning applications etc. It's a joke really and in my opinion dumb down our profession!!

fatchops

I agree with both of you, the job should be priced accordingly to allow you a decent wage to live on that however shouldn't mean you have to price a couple of quid higher than a guy doing a nixer . My view is price reasonably, explain to the client exactly what they are getting and the benefit of that including your experience. yuo may not get every job but the ones you do get will allow you to live with a modicum of comfort and a clear conscience. Dont forget the title of this thread btw

muffler

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Agree with you! Also it is important to note from experience, that the "guy around the corner" who undertakes to do a job for €800.00 is providing an appalling service, even with the smallest of projects! Taking into account the number of meetings required, surveys of properties, re-designs, valid planning applications etc. It's a joke really and in my opinion dumb down our profession!!

Who or rather what type of person are you referring to here?

ConfusedTech

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Agree with you! Also it is important to note from experience, that the "guy around the corner" who undertakes to do a job for €800.00 is providing an appalling service, even with the smallest of projects! Taking into account the number of meetings required, surveys of properties, re-designs, valid planning applications etc. It's a joke really and in my opinion dumb down our profession!!

Be careful Pseudo!, I got my ears clipped when I suggested this before on Boards. (5 more Hail Mary's for you) There are some good people who provide low cost services, and we cant accredit the cost to the quality. That said, I would agree that a large proportion of the low cost jobs don't hit the mark and do give the good guys a bad name, as in any industry. They really dont account for the fact taht a survey, client meetings, site assessment is required before you even put mouse to mat.

I am concerned that the amount of new people on the circuit, straight out of offices, offering planning services to people don't appreciate the work involved in putting in a planning for even a small extension. I fear that there will be a large amount of disgruntled customers over the next year.

No6

ConfusedTech wrote: »

We should also all remember that when working from home, and for ones-self, you have a certain level of expenses that you can charge back off the Gross income. You also have the advantage of not having to travel to work, that cost and that time. Working from home will be the new black for those trying to save and get the best value out of their house and mortgage.

I opperate from home and have done so since 2000, I'm still in buisness just about, I do have the advantage of lower overheads and yes i can write off some of my costs but beware it tough going.

And for anyone considering doing nixers a nixer is work done by someone when employed elsewhere and not declared and would be a form of tax evasion, or if done when unemployed is welfare fraud.

And if you are considering hiring someone to do a nixer you may (IMO will) not get the level of service you expect, there will not be any professional indemnity insurance, no follow on after planning etc etc (I could go on!!)

pseudo-tech

muffler wrote: »

Who or rather what type of person are you referring to here?

The guy or the girl who undertake projects without paying TAX. Normally no PI which in my opinion are providing an appalling service to the person who employs them. There have been many times that I have taken over projects to tidy up projects started by this group of people, who in my opinion don't care enough!

Its wrong at any level, if you want to provide a professional service, register for TAX and take out PI so that you can provide your client with an acceptable service.

pseudo-tech

ConfusedTech wrote: »

Be careful Pseudo!, I got my ears clipped when I suggested this before on Boards. (5 more Hail Mary's for you) There are some good people who provide low cost services, and we cant accredit the cost to the quality. That said, I would agree that a large proportion of the low cost jobs don't hit the mark and do give the good guys a bad name, as in any industry. They really dont account for the fact taht a survey, client meetings, site assessment is required before you even put mouse to mat.

I am concerned that the amount of new people on the circuit, straight out of offices, offering planning services to people don't appreciate the work involved in putting in a planning for even a small extension. I fear that there will be a large amount of disgruntled customers over the next year.

I agree with you in relation to that point. However, for that price they may not have a need to cover costs and may be doing it out of pure enjoyment. However, it is important that we provide a good quality service and i feel that if you take on a project and don't have PI to cover the service, that this is wrong. If you do have PI and pay TAX, €800.00 will not cover the basic overheads.

ConfusedTech

pseudo-tech wrote: »

I agree with you in relation to that point. However, for that price they may not have a need to cover costs and may be doing it out of pure enjoyment. However, it is important that we provide a good quality service and i feel that if you take on a project and don't have PI to cover the service, that this is wrong. If you do have PI and pay TAX, €800.00 will not cover the basic overheads.

Does PI come into play really if you are providing a drawing service only, or just taking a project up to Planning? This is the problem.

It is really only required for surveying or from Tender onwards when you need to be indemnified for what is being built or built on or physically priced. It would be up to the person taking over the job at Tender to ensure that the planning and drawings are up to scratch, as they take over the responsibility and indemnity of the accuracy and compliance of the drawings. The guys up to planning can get away with murder. A good drafter can rehash four plannings in a month. With no overheads and even paying their tax, that is still a rather good income. Again, I couldnt compete with that, and I would certainly question the accuracy of what is being produced.

muffler

pseudo-tech wrote: »

The guy or the girl who undertake projects without paying TAX. Normally no PI which in my opinion are providing an appalling service to the person who employs them. There have been many times that I have taken over projects to tidy up projects started by this group of people, who in my opinion don't care enough!

Its wrong at any level, if you want to provide a professional service, register for TAX and take out PI so that you can provide your client with an acceptable service.

I can see no logic whatsoever in that statement. Whether or not a person pays tax or needs to register for VAT doesn't make that person any better or any worse than some of the so called "professionals" you refer to.

You seem to be inferring that paying tax and having PI cover guarantees a better service. Thats far off the mark. Yes, I like others, have been brought in on projects when others have failed to provide an adequate service and I recall one of those cases involved an RIAI registered architect of long standing who basically made a balls of it.

Your argument here would be on a par with the guys in the building trade over the last few years who went out and bought their transit van and got their name and the words "registered contractor" painted all over it. That didnt result in them providing even a better service or a good quality of work.

muffler

ConfusedTech wrote: »

Does PI come into play really if you are providing a drawing service only, or just taking a project up to Planning? This is the problem.

What about your construction drawings?

pseudo-tech

muffler wrote: »

I can see no logic whatsoever in that statement. Whether or not a person pays tax or needs to register for VAT doesn't make that person any better or any worse than some of the so called "professionals" you refer to.

You seem to be inferring that paying tax and having PI cover guarantees a better service. Thats far off the mark. Yes, I like others, have been brought in on projects when others have failed to provide an adequate service and I recall one of those cases involved an RIAI registered architect of long standing who basically made a balls of it.

Your argument here would be on a par with the guys in the building trade over the last few years who went out and bought their transit van and got their name and the words "registered contractor" painted all over it. That didnt result in them providing even a better service or a good quality of work.

Muffler, having PI cover is a minimum request by all the professional representation bodies for their self-employed members. They believe that this is not to cover you the professional but to provide a cover for the client. Mistakes happen by even the best of use and if you do not have PI cover to cover that mistake then it is a disservice to the people that you are providing that service to.

In relation to TAX, if you are not paying it, in my opinion straight away it calls your character into question. You used the man in the van analogy. I would suggest it is no better than one of those guys that put a flyer in your door with only a mobile number and no name or address advertising to tarmacadam your drive.

ConfusedTech

muffler wrote: »

What about your construction drawings?

If you are only providing a drawing service for somebody, ie another architect, it does not matter what you draw relative to PI, as they are taking on the liability.

I noted in my post that after Tender, PI is required personally. Last time I looked, Construction came after Tender!

pseudo-tech

ConfusedTech wrote: »

If you are only providing a drawing service for somebody, ie another architect, it does not matter what you draw relative to PI, as they are taking on the liability.

I noted in my post that after Tender, PI is required personally. Last time I looked, Construction came after Tender!

Once you prepare any level of drawing service you should have PI. What if the clients decide to build from your planning drawings?? If something goes wrong the courts will chase the last professional involved even if they qualified their quote. After all you are the professional!

In relation to providing contract service for other offices. If those offices checked there PI application form they will see that it asks do you contract out work and if so do the sub-contractor provide their own PI for their services.

muffler

ConfusedTech wrote: »

If you are only providing a drawing service for somebody, ie another architect, it does not matter what you draw relative to PI, as they are taking on the liability.

I thought you meant that you were doing both planning and working drawings yourself in which case you would need PI cover.

ConfusedTech wrote: »

I noted in my post that after Tender, PI is required personally. Last time I looked, Construction came after Tender!

And I said "construction drawings" - not "construction" if you care to read it.

ConfusedTech

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Once you prepare any level of drawing service you should have PI. What if the clients decide to build from your planning drawings?? If something goes wrong the courts will chase the last professional involved even if they qualified their quote. After all you are the professional!

In relation to providing contract service for other offices. If those offices checked there PI application form they will see that it asks do you contract out work and if so do the sub-contractor provide their own PI for their services.

Sorry Pseudo, it does not work that way. Planning Drawings are for Planning only. If a client decides to use the drawings for construction they don't have a leg to stand on. No judge would tell them to chase the person who did Planning drawings. This is why we write for Planning Purposes only on them. There is a big jump from planning to even tendering drawings never mind construction. The reality is there is little or no indemnity required for Planning drawings, only the surveying of same. There should be! I agree.

It asks the question on the form, as does it on mine. The answer can be 'no'. You wont lose your PI, but they will then have the right to review this persons operations, or increase your own PI cover to counteract this. If your principle is correct, what about all the contract workers through agencies and privately!!! A very small percentage of them hold PI. It is a given that the architect with the contract that issues the drawings to the client takes whole responsibility for the work. There is no halfway house here.

topcatcbr

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Topcat, your reality seems to be different that everyone elses. When you compare us with England where a qualified Architect may only earn 35K in certain contexts, there was a need for an adjustment here. A new reality!!!

I'm sorry if i am in a different reality but the reality i am in is that a newly qualified carpenter can expect a salary of this amount. This for somebody with a third level qualification plus experience does not seem fair to me and i was surprised by it. Especially since it would be piecemeal with no definite terms and conditions of employment. I appreciate it is twice min wage but we are not talking about stacking shelves.

smashey

Just a thought here to keep the conversation flowing. I notice a few posts where the word "nixer" is being boycotted for obvious reasons.

Why not use the term "private work"?

luckat

ConfusedTech wrote: »

Agreed Pseudo, Nixers, or 'Nicksers' as the real term states

No, no! 'Nixer' is correct - 'nix tax', in other words.

sydthebeat

ive created a new thread regarding the whole PI issue...

please keep this thread to the topic as stated...