Marques that have gone from hero to zero.

coolbeans

I'm just curious to know what marques have lost the plot in the opinions of all you motor heads. For me it would have to be Peugeot and SAAB.

Why? Peugeot used to make some great cars. The 205, 405, 406, 306, various GTIs etc were all class leaders when launched. Handling was precise, diesels were the best out there and reliability was generally very good. On top of that they were comfortable, handled beautifully and good looking in an understated kind of way. Now we've got the 307; unreliable, ugly and heavy. Ditto the 308 on the last two points although I don't know about reliability. 407 isn't so bad but it's no beauty and never set the class on fire when launched. The 207 is dull enough and an also-ran to be honest. Don't get me started on that soft roader?

SAAB. Let me put it this way; if I wanted an Opel Vectra I'd buy Opel Vectra. GM have destroyed them. The 9-3 is a major disappointment especially pre-facelift. It looks like an old SEAT Toledo FFS!, i.e. an upturned basin on wheels (see pics). The basic design is one of the dullest out there.



They used to be a leftfield choice but now they're...nothing cars. Outdated and expensive is being charitable. The 9-5 is a dinosaur but at least it looks half decent. Still based on an old Vectra though and the engines are trouble unless serviced religiously. Aircraft heritage my arse! Thoughts anyone?

.Longshanks.

Toyota used to have the MR2, the celica, supra & corolla coupe all for sale at the same time. Now what have they got.......

>

Matt Simis

Volvo - went from producing these:

To todays ugly derivative boxes. They made the connection that safety must = boring. Their best attempt at trying to recreate the P1800 ES (aka Snow Whites Coffin) is the C30, which does it all wrong.

I was going to link an image of their newer cars, but its more fun to goto Volvo.ie and run your mouse over the model names so the pop up photo changes. Except "change" isnt the right word, S40 -> S60 -> S80, then the Vs, they all took the same. A good photoshopper could have taken the S40 and made their entire stupid line up.

Ive seen the same argument against Audi, but seriously Volvo are in a league of their own when it comes to unoriginality. Look back at their fantastic and interesting 70s range and see how they changed in the 80s (to now):

Senna

Agree with Toyota really killing off what i loved about them, i 90's celicas and mr2's but there's nothing Toyota have now that i would aspire too.


And yes from the age of 12((1990) i wanted a black MR2 and from the age of 18 i wanted a white SSIII celica, had both.

cashmni1

Agreed about Peugeot, terrible shame. I had a 405 then a 406 (very underrated cars btw) but I couldn't bring myself to buy the 407. I used to love Peugeot, love them, but now, jesus the cars are just awful.
I was going to mention Nissan, but they have the 350z and 370z not to mention the wonderful GTR. Apart from that, their range is very poor.
My only worry is Porsche. Now they have a diesel Jeep. WTF?
If I spend a hundered thousand euro or so on a car that has a pure performance pedigree, I dont want to pull up next to a diesel jeep at the lights with the same brand as my prised "indiividual marque" Porsche. You dont see Ferrarri or Messarrati or Bugatti making jeeps.
thats just me though.

AugustusMaximus

cashmni1 wrote: »

Agreed about Peugeot, terrible shame. I had a 405 then a 406 (very underrated cars btw) but I couldn't bring myself to buy the 407. I used to love Peugeot, love them, but now, jesus the cars are just awful.
I was going to mention Nissan, but they have the 350z and 370z not to mention the wonderful GTR. Apart from that, their range is very poor.
My only worry is Porsche. Now they have a diesel Jeep. WTF?
If I spend a hundered thousand euro or so on a car that has a pure performance pedigree, I dont want to pull up next to a diesel jeep at the lights with the same brand as my prised "indiividual marque" Porsche. You dont see Ferrarri or Messarrati or Bugatti making jeeps.
thats just me though.

Lambo also made a jeep. But that thing was ****in crazy.

peasant

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Lambo also made a jeep. But that thing was ****in crazy.

*cough*





(sorry for the off topic post)

alastair

Matt Simis wrote: »

Volvo - went from producing these:
To todays ugly derivative boxes. They made the connection that safety must = boring. Their best attempt at trying to recreate the P1800 ES (aka Snow Whites Coffin) is the C30, which does it all wrong.

I've a 1800ES in the same colour - just without the nasty US side repeaters.

Hero to zero marque: Bristol. Used to make hand-crafted, innovative, expensive and attractive cars. Now they just make hand-crafted, expensive and ploddingly unattractive cars.




edit: The most exciting aspect of Bristol these days is their Fighter sportscar. It's a million miles better than the Blenheim coupe, but surely they could have designed something a bit better than a redux of a 40 year old Marcos?

pburns

Jaysus GERMAN ROCKS won't be happy with all this Peugeot-bashing - he thinks the 407 is the automotive equivilent of Megan Fox:D!!!

When I was growing up Peugeot was the brand I aspired to acquire once I was old enough to get wheels. The 205 and 405 were the high points but I even had a soft spot for the 309. They are really a pointless marque these days though.

Can't agree about Volvo. They're not setting the world on fire but have a range of dynamically capable and handsome cars. Far nicer than the boxy but 'interesting' cars of 20 years ago. The next S60 looks a stunner.

You know who I think has let the ball drop in a massive way?
...Mercedes...
Cost-cutting and reliability horror stories over the last decade is only the start of it. They claim to be getting on top of these issues but even if that's true the current overstyled range leave a LOT to be desired. Compare the new E-class with the W124 of the '80s....Horrid:(...

Matt Simis

alastair wrote: »

I've a 1800ES in the same colour - just without the nasty US side repeaters.

Very cool! I assume you are a Volvo fan, am I missing something with the last 2 decades or are they really as I think, basically two different companies, pre and post '80s?

alastair

Matt Simis wrote: »

Very cool! I assume you are a Volvo fan, am I missing something with the last 2 decades or are they really as I think, basically two different companies, pre and post '80s?

Not a Volvo fan per-se - I like the 1800's PV544's, and Amazons. The 240's a great car, but don't do anything for me. I think that the post Ford cars are a different kettle of fish alright, but the brand went through a lot of changes during the DAF/Renault collaborations before that. I like the C30 though - I'd get one in preference to a Focus, and I think they're a nice car.

EPM

What about VW. Once the total quality product, not a bit iffy. Used to have some of the nicest looking cars on the market too like the mk 1 or 2 golf, now we've got a lard ass mini tourag.

Same could be said of Mercedes too

Mycroft H

EPM wrote: »

What about VW. Once the total quality product, not a bit iffy. Used to have some of the nicest looking cars on the market too like the mk 1 or 2 golf, now we've got a lard ass mini tourag.

Same could be said of Mercedes too

Poor old vag, only skoda is flying the flag for them......

Vw used to be a byword for sheer reliability. My mk2 golf is more reliable then a 02 saxo and a 05 punto put together.....


West german quality rocks!

VolvoMan

I think BMW are a marque that is currently losing the plot as we speak. They are constantly searching for stupid market niches with cars like the X6 and forthcoming 5 Series GT. Multi-purpose vehicles is not what the brand is about and they are definately losing the run of themselves.

I'd say Peugeot are the worst ever case of this happening to. Not one car they produce today drives well, looks well, or performs well. Instead they are plagiarising design cues from other brands (namely Audi) and producing bloated overweight cars with big gaping grilles and massive front overhangs that look out of proportion with the rest of the car.

mick.fr

coolbeans wrote: »

Peugeot used to make some great cars.

Never heard of that one, thanks for the laugh

mick.fr

VolvoMan wrote: »

I think BMW are a marque that is currently losing the plot as we speak. They are constantly searching for stupid market niches with cars like the X6 and forthcoming 5 Series GT. Multi-purpose vehicles is not what the brand is about and they are definately losing the run of themselves.

BMW is losing nothing. They are the brand with the most prolific R&D department in the car industry and created many technologies.
And they were thinking of making multi purpose vehicle before you were even born.

Following what you are saying we can also say all other car manufacturers are all losing it:

Porsche and their 4x4
Ferrari and their 4 doors saloon
etc etc

VolvoMan

mick.fr wrote: »

BMW is losing nothing. They are the brand with the most prolific R&D department in the car industry and created many technologies.
And they were thinking of making multi purpose vehicle before you were even born.

When I think of BMW, I think of finely balanced rear wheel drive sports saloons like the original 2002 and E21 3 Series. They are not a brand of functionality or for finding niche solutions that nobody needs.

Ferrari and their 4 doors saloon
etc etc

mick.fr

VolvoMan wrote: »

When I think of BMW, I think of finely balanced rear wheel drive sports saloons like the original 2002 and E21 3 Series. They are not a brand of functionality or for finding niche solutions that nobody needs.

BMW is a bit more than a brand that manufactures RWD cars...
Also like any other business they do not necessarely answer straight customer needs, they also create new technologies and products to create new needs...

And for Ferrari...

Biro

mick.fr wrote: »

Never heard of that one, thanks for the laugh

More tripe from you that hints at cluelessness.

VolvoMan

The first car you posted was never an official production car by Ferrari and the second one is a Maserati Quattroporte.;)

Matt Simis

Id kinda agree on BMW, though I am a bangle fan (usually). Im looking at an 850CSI or E63 645Ci (generations apart) as a next car, but seriously that 5 series GT and the X6, aweful aweful looking cars.

I also know some diehard BMW fans that have washed their hands of everything post E39 (some post E34). They arent interested in the V10 engined M5/M6 at all, which should be their halo product, its just so distant from the cars they loved. Not me though, I like progress through technology (:P), but they really are "replacing" their core supporters with new money these days. And how much new money is left hmm?

mick.fr

VolvoMan wrote: »

The first car you posted was never an official production car by Ferrari and the second one is a Maserati Quattroporte.;)

Yep glad you figured out :-)
See my point now?

coolbeans

Ah lads not another I hate/love BMWs rant! SAABs glorified Vectras. Anyone got any thought?
I agree that Mercs are ****e but you know people, they just love that 3-pointed star.

mick.fr

Biro wrote: »

More tripe from you that hints at cluelessness.

See my nickname buddy?

If French cars were Legends or Heroes or the car industry I would have noticed.
The French manufacturers historically invented some good things that are being use today by all other manufacturers, or even managed to perform more or less good in F1, but seriously let's not say French cars were ubber cars. That has never been the case.

Run_to_da_hills

Volkswagen went down the toilet after they stopped producing Aircooled, I was talking to a mechanic recently who said that all the new Volkswagen models are complete rubbish. I drove around OZ in a splitty

TomMc

mick.fr wrote: »

See my nickname buddy?

If French cars were Legends or Heroes or the car industry I would have noticed.
The French manufacturers historically invented some good things that are being use today by all other manufacturers, or even managed to perform more or less good in F1, but seriously let's not say French cars were ubber cars. That has never been the case.

You are either very young or have a short memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Peugeot_504_Coupe_1978.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_A110

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS

Take your pick.

unkel

Matt Simis wrote: »

Not me though, I like progress through technology (:P)

Agreed on the diversification of the BMW models. Completely waters down the brand. Did they not learn a lesson from MB? Then again, the best selling Porsche unfortunately is the Cayenne

The Germans used to not pay too much attention to the book keepers and marketing folk. Has that changed?

guil

mick.fr wrote: »

BMW is losing nothing. They are the brand with the most prolific R&D department in the car industry and created many technologies.
And they were thinking of making multi purpose vehicle before you were even born.

Following what you are saying we can also say all other car manufacturers are all losing it:

Porsche and their 4x4
Ferrari and their 4 doors saloon
etc etc

i take it ya have a bmw

mick.fr

TomMc wrote: »

You are either very young or have a short memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Peugeot_504_Coupe_1978.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_A110

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS

Take your pick.

Well I would appreciate if you would not make comment about my age or even intelligence, you are wrong on both anyway.

Now if you consider those cars to be Legend, fair enough.
Following what you are saying the 2CV was even more famous and sold way more units than any of those 3 cars you pointed out.

Now saying they have achieved significant recognition in the car industry, well they were famous in France (Pride of the Nation) and a bit abroad, they exported a few 2CV and DS abroad, but now let's be serious, that's all they were, french mass production vehicle of the 70" with some interresting features, sometimes. Nothing else.

junkyard

BMW are still quality cars though, the likes of VW, Mercedes and Opel, for that matter, used to build quality cars now they just build sh*te, unreliable cars that fall apart as soon as you put them on the road. I think it's about time car manufacturers started building cars that are cheap and easy to maintain especially for the times ahead As it stands most cars are overly complex for day to day driving, most people could live without all the gimmicks that the likes of Renault put in their cars and give endless trouble. I think we could live without all these engine management lights and cat. converters too, but that's just my opinion.;)

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

...The Germans used to not pay too much attention to the book keepers and marketing folk. Has that changed?

I'm afraid so, yes. Across all of the marques. Disturbingly so, imho, at M-B.

peasant

unkel wrote: »

The Germans used to not pay too much attention to the book keepers and marketing folk. Has that changed?

galwaytt wrote: »

I'm afraid so, yes. Across all of the marques. Disturbingly so, imho, at M-B.

One thing you mustn't forget, though.

The legendary "quality Mercs" like the W123 and W124 used to cost about as much as the average house in their day.

If Merc were to over-engineer their cars again like they used to (with model cycles of ~15 years) they wouldn't be selling many these days.

pcardin

mick.fr wrote: »

Never heard of that one, thanks for the laugh

And what about Peugeot 406 Coupe?!

pcardin

VolvoMan wrote: »

The first car you posted was never an official production car by Ferrari and the second one is a Maserati Quattroporte.;)

That is 456GT Venice. AFAIK Seven was actually made by Ferrari for sultan of Brunei and he bought only six of them. I think he also got two 456GT saloon versions and one Spider version.


sorry for offtopic!

ShadowHearth

mick.fr wrote: »

Never heard of that one, thanks for the laugh

Peugeots were good every day casual cars. Relleable, comfortable, best diesel cars in the world.

Now i know a fella, he use to work in pug dealership as mechanic. And the only new one pug that he could say something good was 607.

He threatened me with a cross, to stay away from 407. WORST PUG EVER MADE! They litterly falling apart, some of them costed thousandsand thousands to fix. All sensors, polution systems are just FAIL.

all new 3xx are suffering from head gasket fault. On some cars they had to be fixed after 20k km. ( thats on brand new cars)


If you ask me, i would tell you that allmoust all brands dropped theyr quality level. Its not profitable to make bullet prove cars anymore. Its better to make heap of poo and have it fixed in your own dealership for twice of the price of car it self.

Its kind of risky to go on anything newer then 2002+ in mine opinion. Get a nice old school classic car with all extras, it can have even high millage, and you will be sorted.

Terrontress

mick.fr wrote: »

Well I would appreciate if you would not make comment about my age or even intelligence, you are wrong on both anyway.

Now if you consider those cars to be Legend, fair enough.
Following what you are saying the 2CV was even more famous and sold way more units than any of those 3 cars you pointed out.

Now saying they have achieved significant recognition in the car industry, well they were famous in France (Pride of the Nation) and a bit abroad, they exported a few 2CV and DS abroad, but now let's be serious, that's all they were, french mass production vehicle of the 70" with some interresting features, sometimes. Nothing else.

I think most people who know a bit about cars would disagree with you there. The DS was sold globally as was the SM. It was also produced by Citroen outside of France, including in England, South Africa and Australia. It's still cited to this day as being one of the greatest car designs ever and similar to the Mini and FIAT 500 is to be resurrected.

I am not sure what your definition of what makes a great car but France has had it all from low production sport cars such as the Alpine or Renault Sport Spider through the DS to the high volume production of the 2CV.

Having .fr in your username does not give insight into French motor manufacture and posting on a motors forum does not mean you know your cars!

cashmni1

mick.fr wrote: »

Well I would appreciate if you would not make comment about my age or even intelligence, you are wrong on both anyway.

Now if you consider those cars to be Legend, fair enough.
Following what you are saying the 2CV was even more famous and sold way more units than any of those 3 cars you pointed out.

Now saying they have achieved significant recognition in the car industry, well they were famous in France (Pride of the Nation) and a bit abroad, they exported a few 2CV and DS abroad, but now let's be serious, that's all they were, french mass production vehicle of the 70" with some interresting features, sometimes. Nothing else.

Where did you grow up? A cave? Do you not remember the Peugeot 205? Do you not remember any of ther french diesel cars that littered the Irish roads in the form of the 305 van? Runault 5 Turbo was sold outside of France too ya know.
The current C6, the old CS ? I think they have original design that is missing from most marques nowdays.
There are plenty of peugeot comercial vechicles, which are a testemant to just how popular they are, on our roads too. The HDi is a great engine.
So to re-cap, yes, I think they have achieved significant recognition in the car industry!

pburns

Terrontress wrote: »

I think most people who know a bit about cars would disagree with you there. The DS was sold globally as was the SM. It was also produced by Citroen outside of France, including in England, South Africa and Australia. It's still cited to this day as being one of the greatest car designs ever and similar to the Mini and FIAT 500 is to be resurrected.

I am not sure what your definition of what makes a great car but France has had it all from low production sport cars such as the Alpine or Renault Sport Spider through the DS to the high volume production of the 2CV.

Having .fr in your username does not give insight into French motor manufacture and posting on a motors forum does not mean you know your cars!

I think his definition of 'great' must equate to soft-touch interior materials and a prestige badge. There are so many people on here who claim to know about cars but really know nothing beyond a few 'prestige' German marques and an encyclopedic knowledge of BMW E-designations.

I wouldn't touch a modern Pug with a barge-pole but they had some great cars in their heyday. For example the 205 was so spot-on it had a 14 year production run without any significent facelift and the 405 was way ahead of the Sierras and Asconas of it's day.

To say anything different indicates a mixture of ignorance and snobbery.

And that's without even mentioning the truely great French cars like DS, 2CV, Alpine Renaults etc.

mick.fr

Terrontress wrote: »

I think most people who know a bit about cars would disagree with you there. The DS was sold globally as was the SM. It was also produced by Citroen outside of France, including in England, South Africa and Australia. It's still cited to this day as being one of the greatest car designs ever and similar to the Mini and FIAT 500 is to be resurrected.

I am not sure what your definition of what makes a great car but France has had it all from low production sport cars such as the Alpine or Renault Sport Spider through the DS to the high volume production of the 2CV.

Having .fr in your username does not give insight into French motor manufacture and posting on a motors forum does not mean you know your cars!

Yeah keep insulting me that's fine. Those cars were famous but that never made them legends.
Now you want to teach a french man how the french cars are reliable. Yeah sure. Come again lol.
Now you are citing famous sport cars: Alpine and Renault Sport Spider. Yeah come again lol...What about 205 GTi, Clio Sport, etc?
Obviously you know woualou about french cars my friend.

mick.fr

pburns wrote: »

I think his definition of 'great' must equate to soft-touch interior materials and a prestige badge. There are so many people on here who claim to know about cars but really know nothing beyond a few 'prestige' German marques and an encyclopedic knowledge of BMW E-designations.

I wouldn't touch a modern Pug with a barge-pole but they had some great cars in their heyday. For example the 205 was so spot-on it had a 14 year production run without any significent facelift and the 405 was way ahead of the Sierras and Asconas of it's day.

To say anything different indicates a mixture of ignorance and snobbery.

And that's without even mentioning the truely great French cars like DS, 2CV, Alpine Renaults etc.

Don't ridiculise yourself by making such statements. A great car has nothing to do with its badge, and attributing this way of thinking to me would be a foolish mistake.
It is obvious some french cars did have a golden time commercially, I never said it was not the case, but there is a difference between popular and legend.
Don't forget 2CV/DS etc were produced after WWII and as such french were buying french cars to help rebuild the country. Those french cars sold very little abroad compared to what has been sold in France...

And from a reliability point of view they certainly never been champions.

CharlieCroker

so going back on topic,

I reckon Opel have gone from Hero-to-zero and back to hero again!!

From the good of the Manta, Kadett/Astra GTE and Corsa/Nova to the crap of the ninties like the 93 astra and corsa and the original Vectra and back to hero recently with the likes of the new Corsa OPC, the current 3dr Astra and now the Insignia.
They're making cars that are now actually desirable alternatives.

Terrontress

CharlieCroker wrote: »

so going back on topic,

I reckon Opel have gone from Hero-to-zero and back to hero again!!

From the good of the Manta, Kadett/Astra GTE and Corsa/Nova to the crap of the ninties like the 93 astra and corsa and the original Vectra and back to hero recently with the likes of the new Corsa OPC, the current 3dr Astra and now the Insignia.
They're making cars that are now actually desirable alternatives.

I know it's maybe not much of a measurement but Clarkson's behaviour backs you up. He was said to be responsible for the failure of one model of Vectra but recently said that there is not one ugly Vauxhall model available. I hope that the GM situation does not adversely affect them.

CharlieCroker

Yes, Clarkson is god and everything he says is true!!!:p:p:p

peasant

mick.fr wrote: »

Don't ridiculise yourself by making such statements.

Monsieur, calmez vous, s'il vous plait

(you too, Terrontress)

road_high

I think SEAT is a marque that has gone off the rails completely.
They had competent enough cars like the Toledo (99-04), and the first Leon was very attractive too.
Then they went MPV mad and the new Toledo was a boxy MPV thing. Sales seem to have fallen off a cliff here in Ireland. Rarely see a new one now apart from the odd Leon.

Terrontress

I suppose the ultimate hero to zero has had to be Rover. As well as the wood and leather "bank managers' cars" they also did some fairly exciting stuff like the SD1. As recently as when the 600s came out there was a massive waiting list to get one and the 620ti was a very fast car. The company, in one of its iterations, was responsible for the Mini, the Metro, TR7, Spitfire.

Rover also had claim to be called an Irish car as they were assembled here.

It looked good when BMW bought it over. When they finished with it, there was little left. BMW had even held on to the rights to several marques that hadn't seen the light of day for years.
The attempt to resurrect Rover appeared to be doomed to failure from the off. The cars were not competitive when compared to similarly sized but less expensive cars. Cityrover was a joke. People were aware that Rover were buying cars in India, changing the grille and slapping on several grand for their troubles. Following the bankruptcy there really was zero left. Hero to zero.

Graham_B18C

mfitzy wrote: »

I think SEAT is a marque that has gone off the rails completely.
They had competent enough cars like the Toledo (99-04), and the first Leon was very attractive too.

I think the new Leon is far nicer than the older model!

eire-kp

Vauxhall.is another. What happened after the cavalier turbo 4x4, astra gte and carlton gsi 24v for example. How could they go down hill so quickly! They have only made scrap since.

Matt Simis

mfitzy wrote: »

I think SEAT is a marque that has gone off the rails completely.
They had competent enough cars like the Toledo (99-04), and the first Leon was very attractive too.
Then they went MPV mad and the new Toledo was a boxy MPV thing. Sales seem to have fallen off a cliff here in Ireland. Rarely see a new one now apart from the odd Leon.

Seat arent really a marque, they are a product placement excercise by VAG (2nd bottom in the "value" scale to Skoda). The reason you see less of them is in the boom years people bought "proper" VW's, Audi's etc instead.

They may do better when people arent throwing money at reg plates and underpowered badges on wheels.

bazz26

Not sure if it was mentioned already but the first one that comes to mind is SAAB. They used to produce some great cars like the 900 turbo and 9000 CD that were quirky to say the least.

Then GM came along and the rest is history. Unfortunately now they may not be with us for much longer.

road_high

Matt Simis wrote: »

Seat arent really a marque, they are a product placement excercise by VAG (2nd bottom in the "value" scale to Skoda). The reason you see less of them is in the boom years people bought "proper" VW's, Audi's etc instead.

They may do better when people arent throwing money at reg plates and underpowered badges on wheels.

Their "new" Exeo (ex Audi A4) might do well here I'd say. Exactly the kinda car that sells here.

But the likes of the recent Toledo and Altea were not particularly well priced in my opinion, partly why they sold relatively poorly.