Unionism, right wing Politics and Education

Can'tseeme

Read a interesting article in the Irish News today by Brian Feeney. He talked about, why is it that on almost every issue Unionists will take a right wing view? Human rights, they poo poo the human rights commission, we all know there thoughts on gay/lesbian rights. When it comes to Irsael's aggression, they back it to the hilt. When it comes to any issue you can bet they have a right wing view on it. Now when it comes to nationalist/republican politics you would of course get the opposite of this. When it comes to education, working class, protestant areas are the worst effected. They have the worst standards and results in the UK and Ireland. Yet the DUP, who have huge support in these areas, have the usual right wing, elitist view which are polar opposite of what is best to improve education standards in these areas. This to me should be a huge issue for working class DUP supporters but never seems to be addressed. Why?

wes

You have a link to the article?!?

P. Breathnach

Can'tseeme wrote: »

... Yet the DUP, who have huge support in these areas, have the usual right wing, elitist view which are polar opposite of what is best to improve education standards in these areas. This to me should be a huge issue for working class DUP supporters but never seems to be addressed. Why?

I can't explain it, but it the phenomenon is not unique. In most societies, you can find a number of right-wingers among the socially-deprived; in some societies, they are numerically significant. They often tend to be of the authoritarian right, and are more authoritarian than right-wing.

Add to that the right-wing inclinations of many fundamentalist churches.

Fratton Fred

Ying and Yang politics I reckon.

junder

Think you will find that when it comes to abortion and gay rights the catholic church is as much to blame as the Free P's for not allowing it in Northern Ireland, not much they agree on but those two issues have them singing from the same hynm book. For the record i am a working class loyalist and i am pro-choice, anti sectarian, anti-racist and have no issue with gay rights nor to i believe women should be chained to the kitchen sink, as long as they have my dinner ready when i get home they can do what they like (that is of course a joke, so please spare me the rightous idignation)

Can'tseeme

This is the best link I can get, it only gives you the first few lines of the column. You have to be a subcriber to read the rest:mad:

http://www.irishnews.com/appnews/540/606/2009/4/1/614112_377133547545Unionists.html

Can'tseeme

junder, what about the main point. Education?

In the article he talks about a bestselling book called 'What's the matter with Kansas'. It's about one of the worst deprived areas in Kansas that has hardcore republican support. Even though their policies do nothing to help their communities.

LordSutch

So just who is Brian Feeney & what are his credentials?

Would he be regarded as being impartial re Northern Ireland? or might he be Republican friendly?

Dudess

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Read a interesting article in the Irish News today by Brian Feeney. He talked about, why is it that on almost every issue Unionists will take a right wing view? Human rights, they poo poo the human rights commission, we all know there thoughts on gay/lesbian rights. When it comes to Irsael's aggression, they back it to the hilt. When it comes to any issue you can bet they have a right wing view on it. Now when it comes to nationalist/republican politics you would of course get the opposite of this. When it comes to education, working class, protestant areas are the worst effected. They have the worst standards and results in the UK and Ireland. Yet the DUP, who have huge support in these areas, have the usual right wing, elitist view which are polar opposite of what is best to improve education standards in these areas. This to me should be a huge issue for working class DUP supporters but never seems to be addressed. Why?

Did he actually use the blanket term "unionists"? If so, he's talking shyte.

Fratton Fred

Would this be the same unionist whose main political party has just given everyone in NI free prescriptions?

Nazi bastards

Driseog

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I can't explain it, but it the phenomenon is not unique. In most societies, you can find a number of right-wingers among the socially-deprived; in some societies, they are numerically significant. They often tend to be of the authoritarian right, and are more authoritarian than right-wing.

Add to that the right-wing inclinations of many fundamentalist churches.

Is it because right wing groups prey on the insecurities and vulnerabilities of people and deprived areas are vulnerable to their kind of rhetoric.
Would it be fair to say that sectarian divisions can be magnified in working class areas, and because of this the likes of the DUP can play the card, "well if you don't vote for us, nationalists will get in and ya don't want that now". I'm not saying everyone in these areas is sectarian, I'm just saying the problem can be magnified. And I'm sure the boot could be on the other foot when it comes to Republican areas. It just happens that Republicans tend to be more left wing though.

Dudess

I remember reading/hearing (on TV or radio) something Paul Weller said which relates to this: as a young guy in his late teens/early 20s, he was quite the obnoxious brat, and as a socialist, despised anyone who wasn't poor or working-class. He especially hated those educated, liberal middle-class people whom he deemed "do-gooders". He said he was always rooting for the "lovable cockney geezer" for being "salt of the earth" etc (epitomised by the television character Alf Garnett)... and then it gradually dawned on him that the "lovable cockney geezers" of that time often tended to admire the likes of Enoch Powell (see Alf Garnett again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alf_Garnett) whereas the "do-gooders" were getting shot on university campuses around the world for standing up for minorities.

Left-wing in terms of the economic, and left-wing in terms of the social, cultural and political, can be mutually exclusive.

I also remember something which stood out on an excellent Channel 4 documentary to mark the 20th anniversary of the miners' strike (I hope it's repeated this year for the 25th anniversary - it's really superb): middle-class students with radical marxist views would attend protests and often got more riled up about the injustices of capitalism than the miners themselves.

silverharp

Can'tseeme wrote: »

They have the worst standards and results in the UK and Ireland. Yet the DUP, who have huge support in these areas, have the usual right wing, elitist view which are polar opposite of what is best to improve education standards in these areas. This to me should be a huge issue for working class DUP supporters but never seems to be addressed. Why?

does it come down to the economic history of the area. Given that shipbuilding etc. employed mainly Protestants, they had a history of following into those areas, education would have lower down the list.

Dirk Gently

Can'tseeme wrote:

why is it that on almost every issue Unionists will take a right wing view? Human rights, they poo poo the human rights commission, we all know there thoughts on gay/lesbian rights. When it comes to Irsael's aggression, they back it to the hilt. When it comes to any issue you can bet they have a right wing view on it. Now when it comes to nationalist/republican politics you would of course get the opposite of this. When it comes to education, working class, protestant areas are the worst effected. They have the worst standards and results in the UK and Ireland. Yet the DUP, who have huge support in these areas, have the usual right wing, elitist view which are polar opposite of what is best to improve education standards in these areas. This to me should be a huge issue for working class DUP supporters but never seems to be addressed. Why?

The nationalist community were largely excluded from the workforce and more likely to live in poverty compared to those in the unionist communities. That combined with a general denial of rights meant they naturally looked to the politics they felt best represented them, i.e left wing, social movements, equality promotion, wealth distribution, human rights and so on. This is most prominent in socialist / lefty politics and there for those who felt oppressed aligned with the politics which aims it is to free them from that oppression or at least improve their lot.

because the north is very polarised, mostly as a result of violence rather than politics, the unionist side naturally aligned itself to the opposite side of the political fence, i.e right wing politics. The unionist MP's traditionally propped up the conservatives in the British Parliament so the unionist politicians and the Tories were allies, cementing the right wing connection. A rare unionist exception would be some like David Ervine who after he gave up violence was a decent enough community worker and concentrated on working class solidarity as a way to bridge the communities. Apart from the obvious, he would have a lot more in common with SF than the DUP if you took the national question out of the equation.

Basically, a sense of being oppressed is what caused nationalists to be left leaning and by reaction, unionists right wing, despite what either ideology meant for the individuals circumstances.

Today, with both nationalists and unionists both affected by things like unemployment, housing, health care etc it should make sense that they would vote accordingly (across the nationalist /unionist divide) but the main partys are still the same old players and the troubles are still fresh in the mind so a vote left is still seen as a vote for republicans and a vote right still seen as a vote for unionists (or a vote justifying republican violence or a vote justifying loyalist violence). I think it will be another couple of generations before there is a more mature approach to politics. There also needs to be a party to choose which stands for either left/right/centre politics which is not aligned to either the nationalist or unionist question. (The annoyance party doesn't count).

Pandcoa

wes wrote: »

You have a link to the article?!?

DJDC

Personally, I think the grammar school idea is a reasonable way of offering bright working class background the chance to develop far faster that if they get held down in the local community school.

A Dub in Glasgo

Camelot wrote: »

So just who is Brian Feeney & what are his credentials?

You have never heard of Brian Feeney? I am surprised given your interest in NI

Dudess

Two of the nicest guys I know are unionists - I know for a fact they would never take the hardline stances mentioned in that article.

Feeney should perhaps have used less generalising language, maybe he should have emphasised he was referring to (I presume and hope) hardline unionist/loyalist politicians.

djpbarry

Camelot wrote: »

So just who is Brian Feeney & what are his credentials?

Honours degree in "Sensationalist Headline Writing" from the Institute for the Promotion of Stereotypes.

Het-Field

Perhaps he is right. Particularly, if you wish to pidgeonhole Unionism within the Irish Robnison/Johnny Mad Dog Adare paradigm. Mad Dog was a former member of the British National Front. He has no religion, but a hatred for Catholics. Robinson, has opnely criticised Homosexual activities, and has not once tried to recant or recoil.

This would make them individuals of the extreme right. I have never heard either speak of the economy, or pertinent societal matters. Right Wing is a broad Church, and cannot be ringfenced as an ideology which dispises Nationalism, and the so called "liberal agenda".

Can'tseeme

Dudess wrote: »

Two of the nicest guys I know are unionists - I know for a fact they would never take the hardline stances mentioned in that article.

Feeney should perhaps have used less generalising language, maybe he should have emphasised he was referring to (I presume and hope) hardline unionist/loyalist politicians.

I know people from a unionists background who don't think like that. But I'm asking the question, are Unionist politicians with there more elitist right views on education, helping to improve education standards in these areas?

Thanks to those who addressed the question, some good points were made. I just wish others wouldn't come across as so defensive and try to answer the actual question.

Unrepentant

The question posed hopes to gain an understanding of the educational impact of right wing opposition to changes within the education system which directly impact on unionist working class communities.Traditionally working class Unionists suffered more than their nationalist counterparts within the educational arena. Some unionist posters here try to obscure the argument by introducing religious aspects to a political question rather than attempt to answer the clear failures within Unionist leadership to address the chronic education problem within Working class areas.The unionist communities failures in this regard are partly borne out of the automatic job syndrome where they could rely on jobs after school on the basis that their grandfather and father worked in the Ship Yard ,Shorts, Gallaghers etc and they could get their children a start - " The Sash my Father wore" and all that sense of tradition was transposed to the employment arena.Education didnt really matter. Nationalist working classes knew that education would open up employment opportunities in the face of discrimination. When equal opportunity legislation was eventually introduced the losers would inevitably be working class unionists whose Right to a job was finally usurped and a void remains which Unionists leaders are happily exploiting at the expense of the people they claim to represent.

jimmmy

Dudess wrote: »

Feeney should perhaps have used less generalising language, maybe he should have emphasised he was referring to (I presume and hope) hardline unionist/loyalist politicians.

I have to agree. For example, Feeney wrote in his column " Is that why Unionists automatically support Israel and happily cheered on the sluaghter of the innocents in Gaza at Christmas"


Whoever reads Feeney or buys that rag he writes for is worse.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

I know people from a unionists background who don't think like that. But I'm asking the question, are Unionist politicians with there more elitist right views on education, helping to improve education standards in these areas?

Thanks to those who addressed the question, some good points were made. I just wish others wouldn't come across as so defensive and try to answer the actual question.

there are a couple of factors invloved here, there was an education act back in 1920 something in which the protestant churchs schools handed over complete control of thier schools including property to the state, the result being that a so called protestant school is no different and has almost the same ciriculum as any other state school in the UK, the catholic church on the other hand while handing over responablity for education to the state maintained control over school propertys and who can teach in catholic schools, this led to the creation of the council for catholic maintained schools (CCMS) the state then had to rent the school of the catholic church and also cover also maintance costs including teacher salarys, the result of this is catholic schools generlly have more money to put back into thier schools who have two sources of funding the church and the state while protestant schools have only 1 the state. Of course it was not all in the catholics schools favour after all i am sure you all have a few horror storys of the christian brother schools . Anyhow in protestant areas yes we were let down by big house unionists who fed us a diet of fear and kept us subjegated which is why you had the birth of partys like the PUP. Sadly that fear still exists which is why the DUP were able to expolit it and become the biggest unionist party

Can'tseeme

Good point Junder on the PUP. But do you think the DUP get let of the hook when it comes to education? They believe children are 'different', have 'different needs', some are more academic than others hence their views on academic selection. Funny how kids are more academic in middle class areas.:rolleyes:

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Good point Junder on the PUP. But do you think the DUP get let of the hook when it comes to education? They believe children are 'different', have 'different needs', some are more academic than others hence their views on academic selection. Funny how kids are more academic in middle class areas.:rolleyes:

Again thats nots just soly the DUP that thinks that way, as at the moment with the 11+ screw up we have catholic grammer schools opting out and having thier own selection. NI is quite proud of its grammer schools be they catholic or protestant and i think there is a desire both from the likes of the DUP and the CCMS to protect them. personly i do not support academic selection.

Unrepentant

Unionists in working class areas can raise themselves from the mire. Education is the key.Academic selection has disadvantaged working class children, for a variety of reasons, but especially so within unionist areas which have been let down by their political representatives. Aspirations need raised and unionist mind sets changed - Cast of the shackles of victimhood and adopt a self help mentality.

dlofnep

Ok - Before you get overwhelmed in our own sense of political correctness, there is a hint of truth to what he says. On a political spectrum, many unionists can be very right-winged. Look at any of the comments made by DUP politicians. Attacks against the gay community by Paisley Sr. and Jr., Edwin Poots, Iris Robinson and even Peter Robinson himself.. Not to mention, the infamous Maurice Mills who claimed that Hurricane Katrina was a punishment by God for those who engaged in sodomy. Cop on like..

I mean, these are the type of people who run the leading unionist party in the North, and yet still - continue to receive support. He's also correct on the position of Israel - Only recently, as was discussed in another thread - Ian Paisley created a reactionary group against nationalists in support of Israel.

Does this mean that the entire Unionist community believes in these policies? Of course not. But is there a very large portion of unionist politicians, especially in the DUP who do? Absolutely.

junder

I can assure you that the majorty of unionist did not vote for the DUP on its posistion on gay rights or isreal for that matter, most voted for the DUP because of no agreemnet stance which has since been proved a lie. Because of the influnce of the churchs i would agree that on moral issues the working class loyalist community can be right wing but on social issues it can be very left wing with many from the loyalist community having been involved in the trade union movement. Moreover There is more to the support of isreal then just a reaction to republicans supporting palistine. As i have mentioned on another thread most Jews in northern ireland see themselves part of the unionist community, many jewish people have been involved in the UUP for example. Moreover Isreal has also supported Northern ireland

jimmmy

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Funny how kids are more academic in middle class areas.:rolleyes:

That tends to be the same the world over, with exceptions of course. No matter where you go in the world, the kids of say doctors or solicitors or accountants tend to have a higher IQ than say those who are not well educated or those who do not live in middle class areas. I am not saying that is right or wrong ; it just tends to be the way the world is. Of course its a bit more complicated than that too ; certain groups of parents may encourage their kids to be more acedemic too. Some people encourage industriousness, hard work, etc.

junder

Fina Foil is a center right conservative party, does that mean everybody thats votes for them are center right conservatives, probley not since people may have voted for them on a spefic issue that effected them directly

Unrepentant

junder wrote: »

I can assure you that the majorty of unionist did not vote for the DUP on its posistion on gay rights or isreal for that matter, most voted for the DUP because of no agreemnet stance which has since been proved a lie. Because of the influnce of the churchs i would agree that on moral issues the working class loyalist community can be right wing but on social issues it can be very left wing with many from the loyalist community having been involved in the trade union movement. Moreover There is more to the support of isreal then just a reaction to republicans supporting palistine. As i have mentioned on another thread most Jews in northern ireland see themselves part of the unionist community, many jewish people have been involved in the UUP for example. Moreover Isreal has also supported Northern ireland

Could never understand how Non jewish Unionists could support a state which was created following a Terrorist campaign waged against the British by Israeli's. How can Unionists forget the Bombing of the King David hotel and the murder of British soldiers and publicly displayed bodies of dead soldiers hanging in an olive grove.Can you enlighten me??

junder

There are some that argue just that, namely the real right wing nut jobs, but as i said the jewish community would be and large be pro isreal and being pro union, moreover as i mentioned isreal has supported northern ireland

oscarBravo

Don't even think about turning this into a thread on Israel.

Dudess

dlofnep wrote: »

Ok - Before you get overwhelmed in our own sense of political correctness, there is a hint of truth to what he says. On a political spectrum, many unionists can be very right-winged. Look at any of the comments made by DUP politicians. Attacks against the gay community by Paisley Sr. and Jr., Edwin Poots, Iris Robinson and even Peter Robinson himself.. Not to mention, the infamous Maurice Mills who claimed that Hurricane Katrina was a punishment by God for those who engaged in sodomy. Cop on like..

I mean, these are the type of people who run the leading unionist party in the North, and yet still - continue to receive support. He's also correct on the position of Israel - Only recently, as was discussed in another thread - Ian Paisley created a reactionary group against nationalists in support of Israel.

Does this mean that the entire Unionist community believes in these policies? Of course not. But is there a very large portion of unionist politicians, especially in the DUP who do? Absolutely.

Bang on, but the piece was written terribly. The generalisaing language was outright insulting to moderate, open-minded members of the unionist community.

Can'tseeme

jimmmy wrote: »

That tends to be the same the world over, with exceptions of course. No matter where you go in the world, the kids of say doctors or solicitors or accountants tend to have a higher IQ than say those who are not well educated or those who do not live in middle class areas. I am not saying that is right or wrong ; it just tends to be the way the world is. Of course its a bit more complicated than that too ; certain groups of parents may encourage their kids to be more acedemic too. Some people encourage industriousness, hard work, etc.

Also that the middle classes have more money to tutor there children, etc to make sure they get through the 11+.

But I ask the question again. Is DUP education policy helping to raise the standards of education in working class unionist communities.

Unrepentant

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Also that the middle classes have more money to tutor there children, etc to make sure they get through the 11+.

But I ask the question again. Is DUP education policy helping to raise the standards of education in working class unionist communities.

No!

junder

to be fair the DUP is not in charge of education, sinn fein is, so you could well ask the question what is sinn fein doing to promote education in loyalist working class areas.

jimmmy

Unrepentant wrote: »

No!

Is it as bad, would you say, as Irish education policy was at times in 20th century Ireland ( the era of the Magdalene laundries , Christian brothers, plenty of compulsory Irish lessons every day, plenty of nationalist history taught, Peig, etc etc ). It was far from perfect too.

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

to be fair the DUP is not in charge of education, sinn fein is, so you could well ask the question what is sinn fein doing to promote education in loyalist working class areas.

Trying to eradicate academic selection which the DUP is doing it's utmost to block.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Trying to eradicate academic selection which the DUP is doing it's utmost to block.

but they have made such a bigs ear of it even catholic grammer schools are rebeling and having thier own form of selection

Unrepentant

jimmmy wrote: »

Is it as bad, would you say, as Irish education policy was at times in 20th century Ireland ( the era of the Magdalene laundries , Christian brothers, plenty of compulsory Irish lessons every day, plenty of nationalist history taught, Peig, etc etc ). It was far from perfect too.

Last time i checked we are in the 21st century. You make a valid point - it was far from perfect.We could go on the Whataboutery merry-go-round but then discussion gets nowhere. The question relates to how Unionist Politicians have failed to adequately represent their constituents by resolving the educational deficit which exists within working class unionist communities. My answer to Cantseeme' question was - No! Are you offay with these areas and if so can you agree that unionist working class communities have been neglected and failed by their political representatives??

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

but they have made such a bigs ear of it even catholic grammer schools are rebeling and having thier own form of selection

Because of the lack of cross community support and the catholic/maintained gammar schools looking after their own interests.

The point is the majority of educationalists, including teachers support the abandonment of academic selection as it's discriminatory.

You're from a working class area junder. Do you even agree with the Sinn Fein position on this or the DUP's?

junder

I do agree with academic selection but think catrina has made a complete pigs ear of the issue to the point that even her own party have distance themselvers from her, and my critizm of sinn fein has nothing to do with the whole NI issue i am merely critizing the party responsible for education, in this case sinn fein.

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

I do agree with academic selection but think catrina has made a complete pigs ear of the issue to the point that even her own party have distance themselvers from her, and my critizm of sinn fein has nothing to do with the whole NI issue i am merely critizing the party responsible for education, in this case sinn fein.

Did you mean you do or don't agree with academic selection?

That's fair enough but do you agree she was always on a hiding to nothing. She is trying to make fundamental changes to children's education which goes against unionist policy and she's a member of Sinn Fein. Unionist's were always going to make it extremely difficult for her.

jimmmy

Unrepentant wrote: »

Are you offay with these areas

Not really,I am not an expert in that area, as I do not live in N. Ireland ( although I have often visited and some of my best friends are from there ).

Unrepentant wrote: »

and if so can you agree that unionist working class communities have been neglected and failed by their political representatives??

A slightly loaded question, I think, to be fair. It does not exactly take a devils advocate to ponder the fact that Irish education policy ( in the Republic ) has also been " neglected and failed by their political representatives", to use your phrase. There are broader issue. For example, does history indicate that communities are best served by left wing or right wing policies ? I thought the collapse of the Berlin wall put that one to rest. Is education best served by left wing or right wing policies ? Arguably the schools are better funded in N. Ireland than in the Republic ? People from both communities can get free or almost free education in a school of their choice in N. Ireland , I thought, or at least in a school not almost exclusively of another denomination should they so wish.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Did you mean you do or don't agree with academic selection?

That's fair enough but do you agree she was always on a hiding to nothing. She is trying to make fundamental changes to children's education which goes against unionist policy and she's a member of Sinn Fein. Unionist's were always going to make it extremely difficult for her.

Sorry i ment i am against academic selection. Moreover this time last year i was working at stormont, on the enviorment commitee as it happens, so i have seen the dynamics in the big house for real, and as i said even sinn fein have distanced themselves from her, there were times up in stormont she looked a very lonly women. this has nothing to do with the unionist/nationalist thing, this is about a party or atleast a person screwing up, to the point were schools of both denominations are bringing in thier own selection process

Unrepentant

jimmmy wrote: »

Not really,I am not an expert in that area, as I do not live in N. Ireland ( although I have often visited and some of my best friends are from there ).



A slightly loaded question, I think, to be fair. It does not exactly take a devils advocate to ponder the fact that Irish education policy ( in the Republic ) has also been " neglected and failed by their political representatives", to use your phrase. There are broader issue. For example, does history indicate that communities are best served by left wing or right wing policies ? I thought the collapse of the Berlin wall put that one to rest. Is education best served by left wing or right wing policies ? Arguably the schools are better funded in N. Ireland than in the Republic ? People from both communities can get free or almost free education in a school of their choice in N. Ireland , I thought, or at least in a school not almost exclusively of another denomination should they so wish.

Whilst i don't argue with the points you have made the thrust of my point is that the unionist psyche in working class areas where education was not seen as a means to improve individual or community aspirations has been a situation which unionist leadership has failed to address and indeed exploited to meet their own political agendas.

Can'tseeme

Junder, it's politics. The Unionists had a great chance to give her a kickin' over this one, they're not going to let it go. The catholic church wants to protect their grammar schools. You can at least admit she has faced and still is facing an uphill task. A lot of opposition from all sides. There's problems in all parties but Sinn Fein have stood by her

jimmmy

Unrepentant wrote: »

Whilst i don't argue with the points you have made the thrust of my point is that the unionist psyche in working class areas where education was not seen as a means to improve individual or community aspirations has been a situation which unionist leadership has failed to address and indeed exploited to meet their own political agendas.

So you think education is "seen as a means to improve individual or community aspirations" more in working class nationalist areas rather than working class unionist areas ? You could be right, I do not know. However, I do know that I would not have to go to N. Ireland to find working class areas where ( to borrow your words ) " education was not seen as a means to improve individual or community aspirations ".

From talking to teachers too on both sides of the border I think it fair to say the N. I. system is better funded , and on the N.I. side access is cheaper - and always has been - for those from minorities to wish to pursue education of their choice.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I can assure you that the majorty of unionist did not vote for the DUP on its posistion on gay rights or isreal for that matter, most voted for the DUP because of no agreemnet stance which has since been proved a lie.

Thats an interesting point, would you think in the next election the DUP is therefore going to take a major hit to the UUP? They never claimed they were going to be no agreement so could put themselves forward as the more trustworthy party. Or do you think the TUV are likely to gain ground?