What sacrifices would you and would you not be prepared to make to aid Recovery?

faceman

The news is full of speculation about pay freezes, tax hikes, charges here and there and we always give out about it, obviously. But we are faced with a dire economic situation and whether we like it or not, we have to make sacrifices both as a nation and as individuals to aid the recovery. How we got here and who is to blame is a different discussion altogether.

So in all honesty, what sacrifices would you be willing to take on to see us through and what would you be completely opposed to?

Personally I could swallow a tax on SMS and phone calls and an increase in alcohol duty. An indirect tax any items where I can make a choice whether or not I want to purchase/use them, I can usually deal with.

However Im completely opposed to a property tax and increases in PAYE.

What about you lot?

Darragh29

faceman wrote: »

How we got here and who is to blame is a different discussion altogether.

I'm against any increase in anything until we get a government that learns the value of money and stops p*ssing our hard earned money all over the world. There is no point in us paying more tax when it is just being wantonly p*ssed all over the place. Also, there is no point in any tax increases until the government comes up with a credible strategy for protecting jobs, as the money earned will just be spent on an extra 1,000 people a week joining the dole queue.

faceman

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm against any increase in anything until we get a government that learns the value of money and stops p*ssing our hard earned money all over the world. There is no point in us paying more tax when it is just being wantonly p*ssed all over the place. Also, there is no point in any tax increases until the government comes up with a credible strategy for protecting jobs, as the money earned will just be spent on an extra 1,000 people a week joining the dole queue.

thats all great and all but its not answering the question.

Lets pretend they have a decent strategy. what sacrifices would you and would you not be prepared to make?

Something has to be done now to stop the rot in the countries finances darragh.
pious sermons won't stop the countries bank balance taking us into the abyss.
The time for judgement on politicians is at the next election.

there is no point in any tax increases until the government comes up with a credible strategy for protecting jobs, as the money earned will just be spent on an extra 1,000 people a week joining the dole queue

Eh ?
So do we stop paying the dole in the meantime?
Theres no government policy thats going to get 100k people back to work [in time to save the hole in the government coffers] who have lost their jobs.
What kind of nonsense are you on about?

The rest of the worlds economy has to improve before we even start to think ours will.
In the meantime we are stuck in the position we are in.

P. Breathnach

I'm prepared to be realistic. We are facing big tax increases. We will have to live with that fact. Fiddly details like a cent or two per SMS do not amount to a lot (but every little helps).

I would accept
- increases in income tax rates (across all income levels except the very lowest, but still largely progressive)
- removing the cap from PRSI
- property tax
- hitting the "old reliables" a bit.

For others, I would like
- the residence rules tightened up so that the very wealthy either make a decent contribution to the exchequer or emigrate entirely
- the abolition of just about every type of income exemption or income disregard
- the taxing of SW payments (including child allowance)
- the treatment of capital gains as income for tax purposes.

SkepticOne

I would question the notion that raising taxes aids recovery. What raising taxes does is improve public finances, but the public finances situation is merely a symptom of deeper economic problems not the cause.

What we need to do is cut expenditure dramatically and use the savings to cut taxes to the greatest extent possible. This will allow people to build up their savings and pay off their debts. It will also encourage entrepreneurial activity in the wider economy.

P. Breathnach

SkepticOne wrote: »

I would question the notion that raising taxes aids recovery. What raising taxes does is improve public finances, but the public finances situation is merely a symptom of deeper economic problems not the cause.

The public finances are a bit more than a symptom of our economic problems: they are a major part of them.

What we need to do is cut expenditure dramatically and use the savings to cut taxes to the greatest extent possible. This will allow people to build up their savings and pay off their debts. It will also encourage entrepreneurial activity in the wider economy.

While I recognise that public expenditure needs to be cut, I am not persuaded that it is much better as a measure than is increasing tax. When people in the public sector are paid, some of that pay goes back to the exchequer. Most of the rest gets spent (some of it is saved). That spending becomes revenue for other people.

nesf

SkepticOne wrote: »

I would question the notion that raising taxes aids recovery. What raising taxes does is improve public finances, but the public finances situation is merely a symptom of deeper economic problems not the cause.

Arguably the size of the deficit combined with the uncertainty of how much we can borrow with what price we will be able to borrow at is a stronger deflationary force then raising taxes by a moderate amount.

I agree that we need to cut spending but realistically taxes are also on the agenda given our unusually large exclusion of workers from income tax and similar.

El Stuntman

measures I'd like to see that would also count as 'sacrifices' by me:

- removal of all property based tax reliefs (yes this will hit me as I currently avail of TRS). In the long run this is good news as it removes all the various distortions from the property markets and will help bring us to a new (low) price environment for property

- remove welfare allowances for middle class i.e. scrap child allowance and early childcare supplement for any family with gross earnings > 40k. (yes this will hit me also - to the tune of 6k p.a. i.e. 2 kids)

- third band of tax, 50% on all incomes over 80k (that will hit me also), make everyone pay income tax, including minimum wage earners, tax base has to be sufficiently broad

- reduce tax relief on pension contributions to the standard rate (hits me again)

- introduce a property tax - to be collected by and used by local authorities for provision of local services (again, hits me)

that's at least 12k of a sacrifice by me, that hurt :eek:

nesf

I look at the size of the deficit and honestly am willing to accept a rise in PAYE, child benefit being treated as income for tax purposes and a cutting of front line service levels across the public sector.

All of which will adversely affect me but with a deficit that's around €6,000 per head for every man, woman and child in the country, I don't think we can get out of this without feeling a lot of pain.

Blazer

Increase tax on drink + cigs.
Bring back bookie's tax. If they can gamble they can afford to pay extra.
SMS tax..I'd be open to this...€50 million is €50 million.
Tax TD's on all benefits in kind and increase PAYE tax for them so they can lead by example.
I'd be open to an increase on petrol/diesel.
We're all screwed..but my fear is that the good old reliable..ie PAYE gets completely screwed over to bail this country out.


One good idea might be to increase rates of tax but promise guaranteed pension sums etc...I'd gladly pay extra now if I had that surity in 30 years time.

Tech3

As Ive said on a previous thread I would be happy to accept another 4% on top of the 1% levy I currently pay. I think rent relief/allowances of that kind need to be terminated with the following also:


Serious decisions need to be made:



- bring down VAT to 15% rate on goods

- reduce the social welfare to 140 as VAT and diesel prices take affect

- increase the income levy from 1% to 4% on lower rate

- 44% for higher rate of tax

- 48% for earners over 100,000

- cut 1 billion off infrastructure projects

- increase petrol 8 cents extra

- decrease diesel tax by 8 cent

- terminate the RSA(not needed) and the NRA (no road projects for several years)

- trim local athourities. (road and rail designs not needed in the short term)

- severe cuts in the amount of tds also reduce pay of current tds by 30%

also to add VRT needs to be reviewed in order to have a competitive market in the motor industry

El Stuntman

on child allowance, does anyone know if this is a standard thing in other OECD countries? I must admit that I quite often scratch my head when I look at our joint account and see those amounts in there and think 'why the hell are we getting this money?'

seriously, what is the policy behind this payment? can anyone provide a good link?

(besides good old fashioned vote buying)

kmick

I be prepared to se 75% of poilticians on the dole to save costs. Also I'd be prepared not to buy any consumer goods until they bring VAT down. Also Id be prepared never to buy a new car until they abolish VRT. Also would like to see people on the dole working for their money if only 10 hours a week. Theres a hell of a lot of stuff they could achieve in terms of community service.

Increasing taxes is not going to work. Already half the people I meet are operating in the black market in everyting from trades to shops etc. Its diminishing returns. Saying that I wouldnt mind paying an extra couple of cents on my euro. However like othe posters I dont expect to see any value for money for the extra I pay.

Permabear

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El Stuntman

donegalfella wrote: »

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so you advocate the collapse of the State?

interesting perspective

djpbarry

donegalfella wrote: »

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And then?

Tech3

djpbarry wrote: »

And then?

privatisation of most of the public sector I would presume.

Permabear

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Sleepy

Sad fact is that it doesn't matter what I'm prepared to accept or not. My family life has me tied to this country unless I could persuade others to emmigrate with me. So, like the vast majority of the country I'm just going to have to brace myself while I get shafted so the government can continue to feather their own nests and piss away my money...

Zynks

Getting a sense of deja vu...

El Stuntman

Sleepy wrote: »

Sad fact is that it doesn't matter what I'm prepared to accept or not. My family life has me tied to this country unless I could persuade others to emmigrate with me. So, like the vast majority of the country I'm just going to have to brace myself while I get shafted so the government can continue to feather their own nests and piss away my money...

just drink (a lot), I find it numbs the pain

silverharp

up until this year I used to take 4 weeks holidays , normally 2 week cottage holiday in west cork and 2 weeks with inlaws abroad. This year I am cancelling the cottege holiday, that should help bring prices down in west Cork and increase the savings ratio in the banks here.

Patriot or what:pac:

jmayo

To a degree I agree with Donegalfella.
I resent having to pay, because some people did very well during our great property boom, others p*ssed away any money they had, included in that group would be the governments I never voted for, and now I and my family are being told we have to make sacrifices i.e. carry the can for others cockups.

Before we pay hugh tax hikes, probably initially in indirect taxes, levies for working and PRSI etc, I would like to ask the following:
how much is being paid out in rent allowances, that is affectively paying for investors' assets ?
what about the chronic long term unemployed who have sat on their ar**s even though we had "full" employment ?

If workers are being asked to take pain, then so must some welfare recipients.
Now I await the whole argument about looking after all the less fortunate.

redblue

You don't aid recovery by making sacrifices, you aid recovery by working productively and focussing on good value in everything you do. That's what a healthy economy is - people working productively to create things that are useful other people, not people making sacrifices that other people judge to be noble or equitable. Our high GDP figures during the boom hid a lot of unproductive work and bad value, and with some good targetted cutbacks we may end up with an economy that works better for everyone even if our GDP is lower.

If you're a consumer you're probably already focussing more on good value - taking a closer look at grocery and phone bills and taking the trouble to phone around or travel further for a better deal. If you're a private sector company your clients are looking at your invoices a lot more carefully than they used to, so you have to cut out activities that don't provide good value to clients. These consumers and companies aren't doing this as a moral gesture, they haven't decided to make a noble sacrifice for the nation, they're just having discipline and thrift imposed on them, and generally for the better. This refocussing of activities is very effectively targetted towards long term, sustainable benefits; for example consumers are more likely to cut (or if you like, "sacrifice") an expensive car than to cut educational expenses for their children.

In an ideal world, the public sector would be as disciplined, thrifty, and focussed on real value as a consumer setting their own family budget , and the cuts would be made in exactly the right places. But what's being put about now is some moralistic notion that we all have to make equal sacrifices, which means that the consumer who can make the best expenditure decisions for themselves has money taken away from them to go into the public sector, and that the public sector imposes indiscriminate cutbacks that make everything less productive when they should be cutting useless services entirely and spending the same or even more money on useful services.

SkepticOne

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The public finances are a bit more than a symptom of our economic problems: they are a major part of them.

I would be interested in your reasoning behind this. I think it may get to the core of some of the disagreements we have seen on this forum in recent months.

P. Breathnach

SkepticOne wrote: »

I would be interested in your reasoning behind this. I think it may get to the core of some of the disagreements we have seen on this forum in recent months.

I thought that I was simply drawing attention to a self-evident truth!

If we don't get the public finances in order, then we are goners. No Irish person, individual or corporate, will be able to borrow; that would include a great deal of roll-over. Given the amount of debt we are carrying, there would be a cascade, more like a Niagara, of bankruptcies.

If we attempt to sort the public finances by cuts alone, the amount of cutting would be unimaginably severe. You might manage it by closing every educational institution in the country and all our hospitals. That's the scale of the problem.

Darragh29

faceman wrote: »

thats all great and all but its not answering the question.

Lets pretend they have a decent strategy. what sacrifices would you and would you not be prepared to make?

The pretending and bullsh*t is over now. These guys haven't a clue how to run a country, and until a new government is in place and a credible plan emerges, I'll support nothing that they do, apart from supporting them when the biggest ape of them all, Cowen, asks his driver to bring him down to the Phoenix Park to ask Mary to disolve the Dail. Even the ratings agency now know how useless they are and have basically told us today that they will keep downgrading us until they see a new government.

Buddy12

While increases are inevitable I for one am completely opposed to property tax. This country is a model for introducing a "small charge" for an item that everyone is willing to accept but then as the years go by they increase these taxes because the Irish people won't say no.

EG
VRT was originally introduced as a low cost tax and now look at the extortionate prices we pay if we do want to bring a car in from another country.

Or look at our infamous West Link. I do remember that being 50p at one stage and now we're asked to pay €3 unless you buy the tag which they charge you €1 a month for the pleasure of owning it.

silverharp

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If we attempt to sort the public finances by cuts alone, the amount of cutting would be unimaginably severe. You might manage it by closing every educational institution in the country and all our hospitals. That's the scale of the problem.

there are ways to mitigate this but I see no motivation for change , every client of the state is holding their ground so it seems that everyone is in a death grip wanting to throw themselves off a cliff.
The best thing that could happen is for the bond market to say no more booze guys.

P. Breathnach

silverharp wrote: »

... The best thing that could happen is for the bond market to say no more booze guys.

That's like saying that death is a great cure for illness.

SkepticOne

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I thought that I was simply drawing attention to a self-evident truth!

If we don't get the public finances in order, then we are goners. No Irish person, individual or corporate, will be able to borrow; that would include a great deal of roll-over. Given the amount of debt we are carrying, there would be a cascade, more like a Niagara, of bankruptcies.

If we attempt to sort the public finances by cuts alone, the amount of cutting would be unimaginably severe. You might manage it by closing every educational institution in the country and all our hospitals. That's the scale of the problem.

This is where I think the two main viewpoints expressed on this forum differ. We do have to balance the books but doing so is only part of the solution. We need to do so in a way that does not exacerbate the underlying problem which is the decline in the larger economy. Most people, such as I think yourself, see the problem as being one of balancing the books. The only question from this point of view is whether the books should be balanced by making cutbacks on the one hand or raising taxes on the other.

The media also sees things in these terms. The recent talks between the public sector unions and the government were referred to stupidly as the "national recovery talks" by RTE.

The problem with this is that it does not address the underlying cause of the public sector problem which is a collapse in the wider economy and underlying problem here is competitiveness.

Not only that but this narrow viewpoint fails to see the problems in the private sector as the problem in itself. Regardless of whether the those in the public sector have to take a hit, the private sector laying off workers is a tragedy in itself and these layoffs have been going on for over a year.in itself. This larger, more fundamental problem won't be solved by raising taxes, but rather will be made worse by raising taxes.

Permabear

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P. Breathnach

SkepticOne wrote: »

This is where I think the two main viewpoints expressed on this forum differ. We do have to balance the books but doing so is only part of the solution. We need to do so in a way that does not exacerbate the underlying problem which is the decline in the larger economy. Most people, such as I think yourself, see the problem as being one of balancing the books. The only question from this point of view is whether the books should be balanced by making cutbacks on the one hand or raising taxes on the other.

I don't see the problem as being just one of balancing the books, just that lessening the deficit is one of the measures that has to be taken, and it needs to be addressed very soon. Further, I don't think it is an either/or on strategy: we need both to reduce expenditure and to raise revenue.

The media also sees things in these terms. The recent talks between the public sector unions and the government were referred to stupidly as the "national recovery talks" by RTE.

The problem with this is that it does not address the underlying cause of the public sector problem which is a collapse in the wider economy and underlying problem here is competitiveness.

I agree that loss of competitiveness is a major problem, but I think it is a mistake to regard it as the only problem. It's possibly not even the main one. The bursting of our property bubble, the dangerous exposure of the banking sector, the international economic situation all come to mind as important factors. It's quite difficult to say which is most important.

Not only that but this narrow viewpoint fails to see the problems in the private sector as the problem in itself. Regardless of whether the those in the public sector have to take a hit, the private sector laying off workers is a tragedy in itself and these layoffs have been going on for over a year.in itself. This larger, more fundamental problem won't be solved by raising taxes, but rather will be made worse by raising taxes.

It is indeed a mistake to concentrate too much on the public sector. It would be equally a mistake to ignore the need to get the exchequer under better control. We have to fight on several fronts.

I think that we have no option but to raise taxes. The best thing would be to find those options that have the least damaging impact. For that reason, I favour those options that bear more heavily on high-income people (they spend a smaller proportion of their income, and proportionately more of their spending ends up outside Ireland).

silverharp

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's like saying that death is a great cure for illness.

not really, it would be a wake up call , the needed reforms would be made and the funding would resume on a sustainable basis. you said youself how bad it is , you cant stop there and say the reforms are unpalitable. the risk is that in a couple of years the state has to fund a 3 digit debt% at pick a rate 10%? 12%?
The only problem we have is that the country is run by people who get to spend other peoples money , life gets very simple when you can decide how to spend your own.

Permabear

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Dannyboy83

jmayo wrote: »

To a degree I agree with Donegalfella.
I resent having to pay, because some people did very well during our great property boom, others p*ssed away any money they had, included in that group would be the governments I never voted for, and now I and my family are being told we have to make sacrifices i.e. carry the can for others cockups.

Before we pay hugh tax hikes, probably initially in indirect taxes, levies for working and PRSI etc, I would like to ask the following:
how much is being paid out in rent allowances, that is affectively paying for investors' assets ?
what about the chronic long term unemployed who have sat on their ar**s even though we had "full" employment ?

If workers are being asked to take pain, then so must some welfare recipients.
Now I await the whole argument about looking after all the less fortunate.

I agree with this.
But we should be passing the passing the pain up the chain, not down the chain.

If you take money from the rich, politicians etc., you turn them into financially responsible people.
If you take money from the poor, your turn them into ruthless gangsters.

How can a minister on 200k+ per annum can relate to me when my measely salary pays for myself and my unemployed girlfriend?
You wouldn't ask Prince William to advise the immigrants in Leeds on financial matters, would you?

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but i think if the people making these decisions were closer (financially, mentally) to us regular people, they would be a lot more careful and make better decisions.

BroomBurner

donegalfella wrote: »

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That put a smile on my face anyway

irish_bob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I agree with this.
But we should be passing the passing the pain up the chain, not down the chain.

If you take money from the rich, politicians etc., you turn them into financially responsible people.
If you take money from the poor, your turn them into ruthless gangsters.

How can a minister on 200k+ per annum can relate to me when my measely salary pays for myself and my unemployed girlfriend?
You wouldn't ask Prince William to advise the immigrants in Leeds on financial matters, would you?

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but i think if the people making these decisions were closer (financially, mentally) to us regular people, they would be a lot more careful and make better decisions.

people do not become gangsters because they have thier dole payments reduced, crime is much higher now than it was 40 years ago yet the wellfare state is far more generous in 2009 than it was in 1959 , oh and giving people money as opposed to allowing them earn it makes people irresponsible

Capt'n Midnight

Buddy12 wrote:

Or look at our infamous West Link. I do remember that being 50p at one stage and now we're asked to pay €3 unless you buy the tag which they charge you €1 a month for the pleasure of owning it.

it took me €4 of "low call" calls to get my video tag registered because it wouldn't work on line.
but what gets me is that the bridge is costing us €50m a year till 2020
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1010268.shtml

Capt'n Midnight

on the radio yesterday FM106 garret was going about how our economy is too open and increased gov't spending would just go on imports

is there any way around this apart from changing the VAt rate ?

silverharp

donegalfella wrote: »

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Is that your April the 1st post?

Permabear

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faceman

Darragh29 wrote: »

The pretending and bullsh*t is over now. These guys haven't a clue how to run a country, and until a new government is in place and a credible plan emerges, I'll support nothing that they do, apart from supporting them when the biggest ape of them all, Cowen, asks his driver to bring him down to the Phoenix Park to ask Mary to disolve the Dail. Even the ratings agency now know how useless they are and have basically told us today that they will keep downgrading us until they see a new government.

No one is denying that we are alll pi$$ed off with the government and the fat cats. But sitting there with arms folded is only making the situation worse.

Also your comment abotu Standard and Poors is nonsense. They said they couldnt see an improvement until there was a change in goverment (clearly they dont know anything about the opposition!) but they cant downgrade the rating based on that.

P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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I read this, and my jaw dropped: I found myself agreeing with donegalfella except for some minor reservations and needing clarification on who he regards as being members of "the fundamental class".

Then I remembered what the date was.

The dream was burst.

Dannyboy83

irish_bob wrote: »

people do not become gangsters because they have thier dole payments reduced, crime is much higher now than it was 40 years ago yet the wellfare state is far more generous in 2009 than it was in 1959 , oh and giving people money as opposed to allowing them earn it makes people irresponsible

Well, I can only speak for my personal experiences, but a few people I know have started stealing from Shopping Centres recently.
Some stuff is small, like a girl I'm friendly with has been stealing bottles of shampoo because she can't pay for it anymore since she lost her part time job. I told her to get a grip.

But another guy has a whole system devised for stealing from Tescos with the self checkout method. Bags of meat.
He has 2 children, his mom and his wife to support.
His wife has been made redundant, and he is now only working 2 days per week himself, whereas he used to do 5 + overtime (is a chef).
I was stunned when he was telling me about the stealing because I never would have taken him as the type to be honest.
I tried to talk him out of it, but he seems to think he is justified. I imagine if his social welfare was cut, he would only be encouraged to steal more.

I'm not condoning it at all, but its too easy for people who are making 80K+ to say that welfare payments should be cut, when a lot of people in the private sector were on 20K+ during the boom times (and even less now)
Its easy to wax lyrical about political concepts, but there are real people with real families and a real desire to survive.

If its already started happening now, what will be it be llike post April 7th?
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/struggling-traders-struck-by-massive-surge-in-shoplifting-1693292.html

molloyjh

silverharp wrote: »

Is that your April the 1st post?

Say it ain't so donegalfella! I was in utter agreement with the entire first paragraph!

To be honest redblue represents my position quite well. I don't think I could phrase it any better. The "effort" that is going into fixing our economy is short-sighted fire fighting that doesn't address the real issues.

As a public sector worker there are a number of things I would be willing to "sacrifice". The pension scheme for starters is just too bloody expensive and that whole area needs to be reviewed. It's not so much a sacrifice for me though as I likely will not be in the public sector for very long (well, I suppose that depends on how the next couple of years go! ).

There are also areas of tremendous waste in the public sector and this needs to be tackled. Badly. There has been no recognition of this fact thus far nevermind movement towards change. Things like overstaffing and top-heavy resourcing cannot be allowed to continue. Pay freezes are also a must across the board.

The job security issue is a tougher one due to the union situation. However one point that is rarely brought up is that this is not limited to the public sector. It is widespread in any industry that is heavily unionised (banking is equally as bad, believe me!). There needs to be fundamental changes in the way unions are viewed and run. Over the last 10 years+ employers have been providing excellent working conditions for employees due to the competition for resources, regulations introduced in no small part due to unions etc. This has left the unions with little else to do on a day to day basis other than looking after the wasters. Which ultimately has a negative impact on the other employees, so is counter-productive. Once this area has been tackled the job security issue will be a very different one, i.e. it will just involve imlementation at that stage.

Higher taxes are a must also, which is going to hit us all. As long as they are measured and fair (the rich need to start paying their share and I agree with the general idea of closing loopholes and removing exemptions etc) then I have no problem with it.

Reduction of the VAT rate needs to be done. They now have a couple of months worth of data relating to the effect that a change in VAT has on VAT income and consumer spend. This data should allow the Government to identify (with the use of a model factoring in exchange rates etc) the optimum VAT rate that will allow for the maximum return in VAT revenue while minimising the flow of cash out of the country. Similarly VRT needs to be looked at, but this would be a much lower priority I would say.

Serious changes in property taxation has got to happen now too. Tax on additional properties, removal of Stamp Duty in favour of Capital Gains Tax (or major modification to Stamp Duty rates/bounds) to try and get the property market moving as much as possible and the removal of tax exemptions.

The tax on SMS use, while not a big win, should also be implemented. As others have said, every little...

Permabear

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Black Swan

Aid the recovery? Go out and party more!:cool:

molloyjh

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Aid the recovery? Go out and party more!:cool:

Absolutely, put the session back in recession! :pac:

Dr Galen

donegalfella wrote: »

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was reading this and nodding along, then kinda thought, jesus this is a bit lefty, your going a bit far.......then I re-copped on who wrote it, very good DF. :pac: