Best way of finding 600m mark on Lane 3

cfitz

Hi. I'm doing a set of 600s tonight on a tartan track. Lanes 1 & 2 will be closed. Does anyone here know the best way of finding the 600m mark in any of the other lanes? Do any of the relay zones happen to fall at this mark?

Any help appreciated. Thanks!

RoyMcC

Tricky! I suppose I'd take the 200m stagger (yellow line) as a guide, measure the distance from there back to the 200m continuous white line, then advance forward from the stagger twice that distance et voila, maybe

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

Hi. I'm doing a set of 600s tonight on a tartan track. Lanes 1 & 2 will be closed. Does anyone here know the best way of finding the 600m mark in any of the other lanes? Do any of the relay zones happen to fall at this mark?

Any help appreciated. Thanks!

I would measure the distance from the start of the 400m startline in lane 3 back to the finish line, probably about 12m. Then go to the 200m startline and measure this same distance on from the 200m startline in lane 3. This will take care of the extra stagger you have to cover when you come around through the finishline for the first time.

Or,

You could take the yellow line (i think its yellow) after the 200m start line in lane 3 as this will be 190m to the finish. So, 190m to the finish, ~12m to the stagger start of the 400m and then 400m and hey presto 602m(approx)!!!

Pherekydes

Start opposite the lane 5 200m stagger mark. Since 200m is 1 bend, 400m is 2 bends and 600m is 3 bends (clearly), 400m is twice the 200m stagger and 600m is 3 times the 200m stagger. So standing beside the lane 4 stagger in lane 3 gives you a 400m stagger, and standing beside the lane 5 stagger in lane 3 gives you a 600m stagger, etc.

Assuming you're starting at the 200m point.

cfitz

Pherekydes wrote: »

Start opposite the lane 5 200m stagger mark. Since 200m is 1 bend, 400m is 2 bends and 600m is 3 bends (clearly), 400m is twice the 200m stagger and 600m is 3 times the 200m stagger. So standing beside the lane 4 stagger in lane 3 gives you a 400m stagger, and standing beside the lane 5 stagger in lane 3 gives you a 600m stagger, etc.

Assuming you're starting at the 200m point.

Right, my head is a bit fried at the minute. Can you explain this in another way to help me get my head around it? Or can anyone else here confirm this for me? Sorry my head ain't working very well right now!

Stupid_Private

cfitz wrote: »

Right, my head is a bit fried at the minute. Can you explain this in another way to help me get my head around it? Or can anyone else here confirm this for me? Sorry my head ain't working very well right now!

Hahah - the first thing I thought as well when I read that was "my head hurts".

thirtyfoot

Pherekydes wrote: »

Start opposite the lane 5 200m stagger mark. Since 200m is 1 bend, 400m is 2 bends and 600m is 3 bends (clearly), 400m is twice the 200m stagger and 600m is 3 times the 200m stagger. So standing beside the lane 4 stagger in lane 3 gives you a 400m stagger, and standing beside the lane 5 stagger in lane 3 gives you a 600m stagger, etc.

Assuming you're starting at the 200m point.

That is cool, I never thought of using the staggers like that before, but...

...if you start in lane 3 at the 200m mark and line up level to the lane 5 stagger that will be 6.28m up the track so you'll have run 193.72m when you come to the finish. You will then have to run 12.56m to get to the 400m stagger start and when you finish after doing a lap from here you will have run

+193.72
+12.56
+400
=606.28.

So should you not line up at the lane 7 200m stagger so you will have only run 187.44 when you hit the finish? Am I wrong?

I'm doing all the above based on the fact that the 400 lane stagger is 6.28m and 200 lane stagger is 3.14m.

cfitz

cfitz wrote: »

Right, my head is a bit fried at the minute. Can you explain this in another way to help me get my head around it? Or can anyone else here confirm this for me? Sorry my head ain't working very well right now!

Ok I've drawn a picture and done some algebra and I'm getting that I should begin in line with the LANE 7 STAGGER Pherekydes! The way I understand it is:

The distance between 'Lane 2 400m Stagger' and the Finish Line is X.
The distance between 'Lane 3 400m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 2X.
The distance between 'Lane 4 400m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 3X.
And so on.

The distance between 'Lane 2 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 0.5X.
The distance between 'Lane 3 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is X.
The distance between 'Lane 4 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 1.5X.
The distance between 'Lane 5 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 2X.
The distance between 'Lane 6 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 2.5X.
The distance between 'Lane 7 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 3X.

To run 600m metres in Lane 3, if you start at 'Lane 3 200m Stagger', you will run too far by a distance of 2X.
Therefore, it is necessary to start 2X distance in front of the 'Lane 3 200m Stagger'.
The 'Lane 7 Stagger' would be 2X distance in front of the 'Lane 3 Stagger': X + 2X = 3X.

Help!

shels4ever

cfitz wrote: »

Ok I've drawn a picture and done some algebra and I'm getting that I should begin in line with the LANE 7 STAGGER Pherekydes! The way I understand it is:

The distance between 'Lane 2 400m Stagger' and the Finish Line is X.
The distance between 'Lane 3 400m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 2X.
The distance between 'Lane 4 400m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 3X.
And so on.

The distance between 'Lane 2 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 0.5X.
The distance between 'Lane 3 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is X.
The distance between 'Lane 4 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 1.5X.
The distance between 'Lane 5 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 2X.
The distance between 'Lane 6 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 2.5X.
The distance between 'Lane 7 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 3X.

To run 600m metres in Lane 3, if you start at 'Lane 3 200m Stagger', you will run too far by a distance of 2X.
Therefore, it is necessary to start 2X distance in front of the 'Lane 3 200m Stagger'.
The 'Lane 7 Stagger' would be 2X distance in front of the 'Lane 3 Stagger': X + 2X = 3X.

Help!

ah man, I've an idea give this thread to the people who closed the lanes, they will read it and i'm sure open the lane then...:)

RoyMcC

To be honest I never consider the bit extra when using outside lanes myself or when coaching. And reps should really be done in Lane 2 and outwards to protect Lane 1 which is always overused

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

So should you not line up at the lane 7 200m stagger so you will have only run 187.44 when you hit the finish? Am I wrong?

I'm doing all the above based on the fact that the 400 lane stagger is 6.28m and 200 lane stagger is 3.14m.

Ha! I started my post before yours was up - must have taken me at least 10 minutes to do my sums :eek:

Running Bing

RoyMcC wrote: »

To be honest I never consider the bit extra when using outside lanes myself or when coaching. And reps should really be done in Lane 2 and outwards to protect Lane 1 which is always overused

So is it bad etiquette to use the inside lane?


I went to the track today to do some 800's and I used the inside lane...I noticed two laps was a bit longer than 800m on my Garmin. Is that down to the Garmin being slightly off or the way I ran around the track?

RoyMcC

Babybing wrote: »

So is it bad etiquette to use the inside lane?


I went to the track today to do some 800's and I used the inside lane...I noticed two laps was a bit longer than 800m on my Garmin. Is that down to the Garmin being slightly off or the way I ran around the track?

Certainly where I come from it is, though it doesn't seem to be so much the case in Ireland. It's just that Lane 1 inevitably gets chewed up more quickly unless it is left for racing and time trialling.

Probably asking a lot of the Garmin to be that accurate really. But the 400m is measured around the very inside of the track, therefore you'll always be running slightly longer anyway.

Pherekydes

Tingle wrote: »

That is cool, I never thought of using the staggers like that before, but...

So should you not line up at the lane 7 200m stagger so you will have only run 187.44 when you hit the finish?

Yes! It was such a simple idea (in my head) I never bothered to check the maths.

cfitz wrote: »

Ok I've drawn a picture and done some algebra and I'm getting that I should begin in line with the LANE 7 STAGGER Pherekydes! The way I understand it is:

The distance between 'Lane 2 400m Stagger' and the Finish Line is X.
The distance between 'Lane 3 400m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 2X.
The distance between 'Lane 4 400m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 3X.
And so on.

The distance between 'Lane 2 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 0.5X.
The distance between 'Lane 3 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is X.
The distance between 'Lane 4 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 1.5X.
The distance between 'Lane 5 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 2X.
The distance between 'Lane 6 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 2.5X.
The distance between 'Lane 7 200m Stagger' and the Finish Line is 3X.

To run 600m metres in Lane 3, if you start at 'Lane 3 200m Stagger', you will run too far by a distance of 2X.
Therefore, it is necessary to start 2X distance in front of the 'Lane 3 200m Stagger'.
The 'Lane 7 Stagger' would be 2X distance in front of the 'Lane 3 Stagger': X + 2X = 3X.

Help!

Yes, of course you're right. I hope you got your session in. At least I gave you something to take your mind off the pain.

shels4ever wrote: »

ah man, I've an idea give this thread to the people who closed the lanes, they will read it and i'm sure open the lane then...:)

LOL.

The general formula (now that I've actually thought about it) is [at the risk of confusing everyone all over again]:

The lane you want to run in minus one multiplied by the number of bends.

You want to run in lane 3 and you want to run 3 bends (for 600m), then 3*2=6 lanes out, which is lane 7.

I'm off to lie down again.

Racing Flat

I think ye're all making it far too complicated....


1 Is it not marked? In Santry, at the start line, there are 3 staggers in each lane, the first one being for 200m, the second for 400m, the third for 600m. So the third solid line from the start is the one. To make it a little easier they colour code it - the one with a blue mark is for 600. However, on your track perhaps they are not marked as such.

2 In the absence of such markings, perhaps this is a way too simplistic...If starting at the 200m start, then whatever lane you are in, the line representing your start will be equal to 200m or one bend, so you need to multiply this distance by 3 to find your start point. We just take baby steps to the first stagger, if it's 10 steps, we take 20 steps for the 400m start, 30 steps to find the 600m start, 40 for the 800m start and so on when doing a pyramid. Just use landmarks like the bin or a lamppost then to mark these, but I suppose a bit of tape might be more specific.

Similarly, if you want to start at the 400m start, count the number of steps to the 400m stagger, and walk out half of this number again to get the 600m start.

As it happens, we always use lane 3 and for 800s the mark (made from the baby stpes method) correlates with a mark in lane 7 (although I don't know if it's the 200 or 400 start in lane 7 - can't wait to go and check!!!!!)


Are the maths wrong with this system - ie - the distance from the start to the 200m start = 1 bend, multiply this distance by however many bends you are going to do to get your correct starting point?

I wouldn't be too concerned about being too specific as when you start and stop your watch is probably a little variable anyhow.

Also, the most important thing is to start at the smae place every week so you can compare times, moreso trhan it being exactly 600 perhaps...

Racing Flat

Babybing wrote: »

So is it bad etiquette to use the inside lane?

Not sure if it's bad etiquette, but because lane 1 gets used the most in races, it's as well to use other lanes when training. There is an argument that if you want to run your best race in lane 1 you should train in lane 1 for specificity of training in terms of getting used to the bends, but at most clubs/tracks that means that the best runners get to use lane 1, the others get shunted out to the outer lanes. Some clubs have a 6 months policy - use lanes 3 out whenever possible, but if you have to use 1 and 2, use 1 for 6 months and 2 for the other 6 months of the year.

In any case, rightly or wrongly, you won't be too popular if you use lane 1, so to save getting an ear-bashing, use the outer lanes.

Babybing wrote: »

I went to the track today to do some 800's and I used the inside lane...I noticed two laps was a bit longer than 800m on my Garmin. Is that down to the Garmin being slightly off or the way I ran around the track?

Possibly a bit of both. If you ran right on the insdie of lane 1 it would be 800m exactly, I presume. But if you were right on the outside of lane 1, so you were practically in lane 2, each lap might be almost 406.28m rather than 400 if Tingles figures above are correct. More than likely you wandered a bit in lane 1, so you might have done a little more than 400, however, I'd say it's fairly negligible. You'll probably run much the same route each time and so your times might be a better thing to watch rather than the distance. Soembody mentioned 'foreshortening' with the GPS when going around in circles like on a track (no idea what that means) and said that that's why it measures long. But if you just start at the same mark every week and try and run the same line, your times will mark your progress.

Racing Flat

cfitz, you're probably aware of this, but if you are checking your splits on the way through, say you start at the 200m start part of the track, then your 200m split will be at the 400m start line for your lane (where you will have 400 left to run adn so if you have started at the correct place you have by now run 200m) and your 400m split will be at the 200m start line for your lane. Only mention this because I often see fellows checking their splits at the actual finish line rather than at the correct place...

Racing Flat

Racing Flat wrote: »

IAre the maths wrong with this system - ie - whatever lane you are in, the distance from the start (ie level with lane 1 start) to the 200m start for that lane = 1 bend, multiply this distance by however many bends you are going to do to get your correct starting point?

Don't want this to get lost on last page as I want an answer!

Pherekydes

Racing Flat wrote: »

Don't want this to get lost on last page as I want an answer!

Yes, you are right. But you also have to multiply by the number of lanes you want to move out. i.e. Lane 2 is one lane out. Lane 3 is 2 lanes out, etc.

cfitz

Got my session in, thanks for all your help lads! Knew where to check my splits too

thirtyfoot

Racing Flat wrote: »

1 Is it not marked? In Santry, at the start line, there are 3 staggers in each lane, the first one being for 200m, the second for 400m, the third for 600m. So the third solid line from the start is the one. To make it a little easier they colour code it - the one with a blue mark is for 600. However, on your track perhaps they are not marked as such.

That makes sense and that will be on all tracks. Thats the 4 x 400 relay start. It takes in 3 bends as the first leg runs in lanes, leg 2 runs in lane and them breaks down the back straight. That will always get you 600 from any lane.

dna_leri

cfitz wrote: »

Hi. I'm doing a set of 600s tonight on a tartan track. Lanes 1 & 2 will be closed. Does anyone here know the best way of finding the 600m mark in any of the other lanes? Do any of the relay zones happen to fall at this mark?

Am I missing something or did everyone just make this more complicated than necessary? To run 600m in lane (3 turns) you use the 4x400m relay start lines, which is run in lanes for 3 turns also. Usually the 4x400m start lines are identified in blue, but not every track follows the standard.

RoyMcC wrote: »

Probably asking a lot of the Garmin to be that accurate really. But the 400m is measured around the very inside of the track, therefore you'll always be running slightly longer anyway.

Actually the 400m is not measured around the very inside of the track it is measured 30cm from the inside. According to IAAF guidelines:

The measurement shall be taken 30cm outward from the kerb or, where no kerb exists, 20cm from the line marking the inside of the track.

So the measurement line for lane1 is normally 30cm from the inside edge and 20cm on all other lanes. This should also be taken into account when measuring the staggers.

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

That makes sense and that will be on all tracks. Thats the 4 x 400 relay start. It takes in 3 bends as the first leg runs in lanes, leg 2 runs in lane and them breaks down the back straight. That will always get you 600 from any lane.

Is that if you start on the first bend? Coz there was no line at all where I started from (it was directly in line with the Lane 7 200m mark).

Woddle

Babybing wrote: »

So is it bad etiquette to use the inside lane?


I went to the track today to do some 800's and I used the inside lane...I noticed two laps was a bit longer than 800m on my Garmin. Is that down to the Garmin being slightly off or the way I ran around the track?

I have left my garmin by the window and started the timer so as to waste the battery and I just had a look at the watch and according to my garmin the watch has travelled 1.13 miles in 2 hours but it hasn't moved from the window sill

cfitz

dna_leri wrote: »

Actually the 400m is not measured around the very inside of the track it is measured 30cm from the inside. According to IAAF guidelines:

So the measurement line for lane1 is normally 30cm from the inside edge and 20cm on all other lanes. This should also be taken into account when measuring the staggers.

Perhaps you mean 30mm?

Racing Flat

Tingle wrote: »

Thats the 4 x 400 relay start.

Aah, that's it - I never knew why that lane was there - thought maybe it was just for training!

dna_leri wrote: »

Actually the 400m is not measured around the very inside of the track it is measured 30cm from the inside.

Cheers for that - had forgotten that.

cfitz wrote: »

Is that if you start on the first bend? Coz there was no line at all where I started from (it was directly in line with the Lane 7 200m mark).

Amateur track

cfitz wrote: »

Perhaps you mean 30mm?

Nah, 30cm. You won't get too close to the kerb, add in the width of your foot and you probably have close to 30cm on average (as your line of running will be taken from halfawy between your 2 feet I presume).

Racing Flat

Woddle wrote: »

I have left my garmin by the window and started the timer so as to waste the battery and I just had a look at the watch and according to my garmin the watch has travelled 1.13 miles in 2 hours but it hasn't moved from the window sill

If I'd only known that I'd have won the 1000mile challeneg ages ago :mad:

Running Bing

Woddle wrote: »

I have left my garmin by the window and started the timer so as to waste the battery and I just had a look at the watch and according to my garmin the watch has travelled 1.13 miles in 2 hours but it hasn't moved from the window sill

Hope your not including that in the 1000mile challenge;)


Might try it myself and Ill be up to 80miles per week in no time:D

RoyMcC

dna_leri wrote: »

Actually the 400m is not measured around the very inside of the track it is measured 30cm from the inside. According to IAAF guidelines:


So the measurement line for lane1 is normally 30cm from the inside edge and 20cm on all other lanes. This should also be taken into account when measuring the staggers.

Oh right, thanks! You learn something every day

Woddle

But yet the garmin is still 99% accurate for the races I do but it obviously explains the debate about recording 5.02 or 3.14(5K) and the Berlin marathon and Dublin marathon I clocked at 26.62 and 26.38 respectivly, so I don't know what the hell is going on with it in a stationary position but maybe we should all let up on race organisers for having there races measured long. I know I was guilty of this. Sorry for going off topic cfitz

cfitz

Racing Flat wrote: »

Amateur track

I would say it's easily one of the top 2 most important tracks in Ireland.

Racing Flat wrote: »

Nah, 30cm. You won't get too close to the kerb, add in the width of your foot and you probably have close to 30cm on average (as your line of running will be taken from halfawy between your 2 feet I presume).

Mad! Thanks.

lecheile

Just in case anyone wants to go marking their own track....here comes the actual maths! If your head hurt trying to follow the stagger lines example, best not to read any further.

The total difference on any lane is determined by radius of the circles when the are straights removed. Using the formula for the circumference of a circle 2∏r (where r is the radius of the circle). As we know that the circumference of Lane 1 (including the straights) is 400m, all we need to work out the difference in the radius from lane one to the lane we want to measure.

Taking the normal lane width of 1.25m, the difference in the length of lane 1 and lane 4 for a full lap is as follows:

2 X 3.141593 X (1.25m X4) = 31.42m - which means that there are 7.85m added per corner in lane 4.

And always remember - measure twice - mark once!!

Racing Flat

lecheile wrote: »

Taking the normal lane width of 1.25m, the difference in the length of lane 1 and lane 4 for a full lap is as follows:

2 X 3.141593 X (1.25m X4) = 31.42m - which means that there are 7.85m added per corner in lane 4.

For lane 4, should it not be 2 x pi x 1.25 x 3?
as if you run on the very inside of lane 4 you wouldn't have to count the 1.25m for lane 4?

Racing Flat

lecheile wrote: »

The total difference on any lane is determined by radius of the circles when the are straights removed.

Are the curves of a track circular? I always thought they were ellipsoid/geoid shaped or whatever the word is

lecheile

Racing Flat wrote: »

For lane 4, should it not be 2 x pi x 1.25 x 3?
as if you run on the very inside of lane 4 you wouldn't have to count the 1.25m for lane 4?

Racing Flat - you are of course correct....I could claim that it was

(a) a deliberate error designed to see who was awake
(b) a confusion between the original request for lane 3 and my example of line 4

but I'll admit that I counted it incorrectly on my fingers.

thanks for the correction.

lecheile

Racing Flat wrote: »

Are the curves of a track circular? I always thought they were ellipsoid/geoid shaped or whatever the word is

No, I am pretty sure that its a circle - based on experience of lining a grass track! You find the mid point in mid field at the beginning of the straight and you draw a circle around to the other side - that is of course unless we have a wonky track!!