This Zeitgeist Thing

Iang87

I was on the G20 anarchist thing and a guy presented this as a better solution. If you can bring yourself to get by the first paragraph am i the only one who finds it slightly worrying that people believe this ****. Is it like a cult or what.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com

This is just a piece of what can be expected. Anyone else find the fault in this:

"The bottom line is that in order to change things for the better fundamentally, you must begin to address root causes. Our current society's system of "punishment" is outmoded, inhumane, and unproductive. When a serial killer is caught, most people jump up and down and scream for the death of that person. This is backwards. A truly sane society, which understands what we are and how our value systems are created, would take the individual and learn the reasons behind his or her violent actions. This information would then go to a research department which considers how to stop such conditions from occurring through education."

Does this mean that the serial killer is then released back into society, interesting that is.

Genghiz Cohen

Watch the 2 ZietGeist movies, really interesting.

Schism

It's a very enlightening movie, I'd reserve judgement until you've watched it. That said it does reek of 'cult'.

Dave!

This Zeitgeist thing has been on the internet since before the internet was invented

And I still don't know what it is

Nor shall I find out

.o/

Zillah

I think its very funny the way the thing you're upset about is something that you just assumed for no reason.

Gone Drinking

Wow, Gone Drinking thanked the mod of the non drinkers forum..

Its like the peace process all over again!

el_tiddlero

Iang87 wrote: »

Does this mean that the serial killer is then released back into society, interesting that is.

I took it to mean that using the information gathered from identifying the root causes of crimes there would be a better chance of rehabilitation - the emphasis on crime/punishment would be more on reviving a broken human (which the criminal is) rather than locking them up and throwing away the key (which is an inefficient use of resources, and achieves nothing.)

It doesn't say whether the criminal would be released, but I would assume that if they could be rehabilitated, then yes, the next step would be reintergration. Seen as it's all theory, it's impossible to say, and I would wager that such things would be determined on a case-by-case basis.

Tellox

Watch the movies, they're very interesting.

Most conspiracy-esque movies are more about shoving random facts down your throat (ala loose change), Zeitgeist is more about presenting the facts and letting you draw your own conclusion on them.

Schism

Tellox wrote: »

Watch the movies, they're very interesting.

Most conspiracy-esque movies are more about shoving random facts down your throat (ala loose change), Zeitgeist is more about presenting the facts and letting you draw your own conclusion on them.

Agreed, particularly the section about 9/11. It presents facts in such a way that you're more inclined to come to their way of thinking. There's probably lots of facts left out to counter them though.

Iang87

Tellox wrote: »

Watch the movies, they're very interesting.

Most conspiracy-esque movies are more about shoving random facts down your throat (ala loose change), Zeitgeist is more about presenting the facts and letting you draw your own conclusion on them.

no way am i watchin the movie not a chance. I did draw my own conclusion, CULT

Genghiz Cohen

Iang87 wrote: »

no way am i watchin the movie not a chance. I did draw my own conclusion, CULT

Step 1. Come up with Idea.
Step 2. Ignore evidence to the contrary.
Step 3. ??????
Step 4. Profit!!!

Brilliant, this is how religion gets away with it.

Iang87

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Step 1. Come up with Idea.
Step 2. Ignore evidence to the contrary.
Step 3. ??????
Step 4. Profit!!!

Brilliant, this is how religion gets away with it.

all i'm gathering from some of these arguments is that its a group of pissed off atheists who dont like poeple believing in something that may or may not be there

Genghiz Cohen

Iang87 wrote: »

all i'm gathering from some of these arguments is that its a group of pissed off atheists who dont like poeple believing in something that may or may not be there, but causes huge damage to society by creating a belief that you should accept what you are told and never question the system, never disobey or stand up for yourself.

Atheists have every reason to be pissed off.

el_tiddlero

Iang87 wrote: »

all i'm gathering from some of these arguments is that its a group of pissed off atheists who dont like poeple believing in something that may or may not be there

i think it's more that said beliefs do nothing to advance the cause of our species, and in fact, hinder its development.

Iang87

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Atheists have every reason to be pissed off.

Why have they a right to be pissed off?

el_tiddlero wrote: »

i think it's more that said beliefs do nothing to advance the cause of our species, and in fact, hinder its development.

could you not refer to us as species please, you sound lik a machine. How does it hinder our development? we've gotten far enough like this for long enough whats the hinderance

Valmont

Hold on! Not all Athiests are zeitgeist followers so don't start lumping us in together. I saw the Zeitgeist movies and I can confidently say they are a load of crap and will never amount to anything of practical significance.

Iang87

Valmont wrote: »

Hold on! Not all Athiests are zeitgeist followers so don't start lumping us in together. I saw the Zeitgeist movies and I can confidently say they are a load of crap and will never amount to anything of practical significance.

ok sorry dude didnt mean to come across that way. i wont lie it may come across like that again but if it does its not intended

Schism

Valmont wrote: »

Hold on! Not all Athiests are zeitgeist followers so don't start lumping us in together. I saw the Zeitgeist movies and I can confidently say they are a load of crap and will never amount to anything of practical significance.

I didn't realize it was a following, I thought it was just a couple of movies.

philologos

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Atheists have every reason to be pissed off.

No you don't. That's the funny thing. Tolerating other beliefs isn't anything to be "pissed off" about.

You have the freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and countless other rights. We live in a society where we share the world with many different people that often disagree with us, that's the reality.

DRakE

good movie, obviously ignores some evidence but the stuff it does bring up is interesting

el_tiddlero

like it or not we are a species and should consider ourselves as such.

as for the hindrence of religion, well, how many wars in history have been fought over who's imaginary man in the sky is bigger than the other guy's?? (HINT - pretty much all of them)

also, if religion had it's way, we'd all still think the world was flat, evolution didn't happen, and that the best way to get a good harvest is to burn a virgin.

Iang87

el_tiddlero wrote: »

like it or not we are a species and should consider ourselves as such.

as for the hindrence of religion, well, how many wars in history have been fought over who's imaginary man in the sky is bigger than the other guy's?? (HINT - pretty much all of them)

also, if religion had it's way, we'd all still think the world was flat, evolution didn't happen, and that the best way to get a good harvest is to burn a virgin.

rubbish man pure rubbish. Religion whilst not perfect isn't that bad it gives some people relief that without it they'd simply not see the worth in living and just be miserable. Sounds like a horrible thing alright

caff

The films are a pretty good introduction into propaganda, well worth watching if you are a film student.

but if you expect anything like an objective documentary its really a joke.

Decent review of it here http://smashingtelly.com/2007/11/08/zeitgeist-the-greatest-lie-ever-told/

Tons of links on google though to people ripping the film to shreds piece by piece.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Iang87 wrote: »

rubbish man pure rubbish. Religion whilst not perfect isn't that bad it gives some people relief that without it they'd simply not see the worth in living and just be miserable. Sounds like a horrible thing alright

Religion relies on ignorance; therein lieth the problem. The moment someone tells you that they have the right to tell you waht to think, run.

What you listed is a better discription of faith than of religion.

el_tiddlero

Iang87 wrote: »

rubbish man pure rubbish. Religion whilst not perfect isn't that bad it gives some people relief that without it they'd simply not see the worth in living and just be miserable. Sounds like a horrible thing alright

so without religion people would have to confront the miserableness of their existence in the current system.. that implies that under a new system, where the current oppressions were not an issue, that people might not need a religion to feel good about themselves, no?

also, it's not rubbish that religion causes wars - that's one of those whatyoucallits - facts.

Zillah

Iang87 wrote: »

could you not refer to us as species please, you sound lik a machine.

Yes...because machines have such a habit of referring to themselves as a species.


(What?)

Genghiz Cohen

Jakkass wrote: »

No you don't. That's the funny thing. Tolerating other beliefs isn't anything to be "pissed off" about.

You have the freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and countless other rights. We live in a society where we share the world with many different people that often disagree with us, that's the reality.

Atheists believe that all religions are spreading lies in order to further the lives of the people at the top of them and control, deprive & stupefy the followers into a sense of false hope. Atheists see this and try to help the followers out, but some, like you Jakkass won't be helped, you hold onto your beliefs because god can't be disproven and it gives you some reason to live or something.

It's like throwing a ship wreck survivor a life buoy and he won't grab the damned thing, not only that but there are so many dumb bastards that they do real damage to man-kind.

It's infuriating.

All religion is rubbish, the sooner people open their eyes the sooner we can move on and improve the world.

caff

el_tiddlero wrote: »

also, it's not rubbish that religion causes wars - that's one of those whatyoucallits - facts.

I wouldn't call it a fact, while religion has been used as a justifaction for wars I would argue that it did not cause a war. People cause wars, religion is a convienent common ground for a society to rally around. If not relegion people would surely find some other excuse to justify war, democracy for example... or a war between people who wear hats. Wars normally highhlight the commanalities and differences between two societies, its needed to enforce the thought of another as the "enemy"

Genghiz Cohen

caff wrote: »

Decent review of it here http://smashingtelly.com/2007/11/08/zeitgeist-the-greatest-lie-ever-told/

I have read that review, it is objective and well reasoned out. The commentary really tells me what parts are incorrect and why.

*Sarcasm detector explodes

el_tiddlero

caff wrote: »

I wouldn't call it a fact, while religion has been used as a justifaction for wars I would argue that it did not cause a war. People cause wars, religion is a convienent common ground for a society to rally around. If not relegion people would surely find some other excuse to justify war, democracy for example... or a war between people who wear hats. Wars normally highhlight the commanalities and differences between two societies, its needed to enforce the thought of another as the "enemy"

ok, i'll accept that people cause wars. Would you accept that the religious beliefs of the people who caused the wars informed or influenced their decision to go to war?

Peteee

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Watch the 2 ZietGeist movies, really interesting.

Schism wrote: »

It's a very enlightening movie, I'd reserve judgement until you've watched it. That said it does reek of 'cult'.

If by interesting and enlightening you mean 'full of rubbish' then yes.

caff

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

I have read that review, it is objective and well reasoned out. The commentary really tells me what parts are incorrect and why.

*Sarcasm detector explodes

Glad you enjoyed it heres another one
http://www.cynicsunlimited.com/2007/11/28/movie-review-zeitgeist-the-movie/

Its a film review not a critic.. if you want a point by point rerbuttal go google it yourself.

Genghiz Cohen

Peteee wrote: »

If by interesting and enlightening you mean 'full of rubbish' then yes.

Ok, the first chapter, The Greatest Story Ever Told, the rubbish in that, go.

philologos

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Atheists believe that all religions are spreading lies in order to further the lives of the people at the top of them and control, deprive & stupefy the followers into a sense of false hope.

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Atheists see this and try to help the followers out, but some, like you Jakkass won't be helped, you hold onto your beliefs because god can't be disproven and it gives you some reason to live or something.

No you believe it. Theres a difference. Just compare your quotes.

It's quite funny the parallels though. You claim that you want to save people from their ignorance, and their false hope. I thought most atheists argued that moral situations are based on harm. What harm does false hope have in the majority of cases? Little to none. That is if this is false hope.

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

It's like throwing a ship wreck survivor a life buoy and he won't grab the damned thing, not only that but there are so many dumb bastards that they do real damage to man-kind.

I actually think that you might have more similarities to Christians than you might think. Actually I think you've actually applied the Christian aspect of salvation to atheism. I'm intrigued.

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

It's infuriating.

All religion is rubbish, the sooner people open their eyes the sooner we can move on and improve the world.

This is nothing more than your belief though. You believe that this is true. So aren't you doing the exact same thing that everyone else is doing?

Peteee

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Ok, the first chapter, The Greatest Story Ever Told, the rubbish in that, go.

http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/

First hit on google.

stovelid

I wonder has anybody ever, in the history of human discourse, actually said the word Zeitgeist?

It's like something you write but would never say, unless you were doing big, comedic quote-unquote signs with your hands.

Zillah

stovelid wrote: »

I wonder has anybody ever, in the history of human discourse, actually said the word Zeitgeist?

Dawkins frequently refers to the shifting moral Zeitgeist.

Lockstep

I saw Zeitgeist ages ago and found it very poor.

Some of the things that struck me when I first saw it;

It not having a clue what the immaculate conception was
It claiming that Horus was born of a virgin (bollocks)
It acting like it made some great discovery around the number 12 (12 brothers, 12 tribes, 12 patriarchs. This bit was extremely poorly done, the whole point being that Joseph and his brothers who were 12 in total, formed 12 different tribes who each had a patriarch etc etc. The movie acted like they were all seperate issues)

dr.bollocko

Wasnt that some ****e album by some bunch of wannabes or something a few years ago?

yoshytoshy

I only seen this last week ,coming to the conclusion that the whole thing reeks of hippy

Just like in the sixties when drugs were harmless ,now they think that people are harmless.
Drugs do terrible things to peoples minds.

BlitzKrieg

I F*cking hate Zeitgeist and zeitgeist 2

mostly because they keep spamming the film production forum and film board with threads about the bloody thing.

Terry

Jakkass wrote: »

No you don't. That's the funny thing. Tolerating other beliefs isn't anything to be "pissed off" about.

South Park told me that just because you have to tolerate something, doesn't mean you have to like it.

You have the freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and countless other rights. We live in a society where we share the world with many different people that often disagree with us, that's the reality.

We don't have freedom of speech.
The Americans might, but most of the world doesn't.

Also, those films sucked.

Zeitgeist website wrote:

WATCH THE VIDEO ORIENTATION

Yep. Cult.

Dave!

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I only seen this last week ,coming to the conclusion that the whole thing reeks of hippy

Just like in the sixties when drugs were harmless ,now they think that people are harmless.
Drugs do terrible things to peoples minds.

You would say that, square.

yoshytoshy

Dave! wrote: »

You would say that, square.

Sorry ,where you expecting a rise in your dole payments or something ??

Schism

Peteee wrote: »

If by interesting and enlightening you mean 'full of rubbish' then yes.

I didn't say it wasn't full of rubbish, there is most certainly some ****e in there. Take what you want from it but at least it gives a different point of view.

I personally don't really buy into the whole religion thing, that's why I enjoyed watching Zeitgeist. But at the same time I understand that religion and faith mean a lot to people and as such don't question it, after all who I am I to tell someone that I think what they believe is wrong. People are entitled to their beliefs.

Dave!

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Sorry ,where you expecting a rise in your dole payments or something ??

wat

Futurism

All Zeitgeist has done is ushered in a group of outspoken pseudo-economists that spout uneducated nonsense about Religion/September 11/Politics at every chance.

Genghiz Cohen

Peteee wrote: »

http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/

First hit on google.

Thats a really good link, goes into loads of detail and give you a point by point reasoning.

But the great thing about being proven wrong is that you've learned what is right.

Iang87

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Thats a really good link, goes into loads of detail and give you a point by point reasoning.

But the great thing about being proven wrong is that you've learned what is right.

"Simultaneously, individuals are taught that being "correct" is what creates their value as human beings. This state of being "correct" is directly related to the prevailing values of society itself"

Odd one that. Your quote about someone being wrong seems to directly argue with this zeitgeist tripe. Interesting that. Dude it wont work it cant work and tbh i'm not too impressed about the Martin Luther King and Ghandi quotes on the site.

Numina

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

But the great thing about being proven wrong is that you've learned what is right.

No, you don't inherently learn what is right when you're proven wrong, you simply learn that you were wrong.

Genghiz Cohen

Iang87 wrote: »

Dude it wont work it cant work and tbh i'm not too impressed about the Martin Luther King and Ghandi quotes on the site.

Buh?

Numina wrote: »

No, you don't inherently learn what is right when you're proven wrong, you simply learn that you were wrong.

But you learn why it is wrong, which can lead to truth, if you do enough digging OFC.