National Strike off

mike65

Fancy that. The unions are going to engage in talks instead.

leitrim lad

ya and all the talking they will do is listening,the unions are not entitled to talk in the current climate,only politicains who were voted in by the public should be entitled to talk,the unions should listen,crowd of wafflers

Rabidlamb

Treasonous losers realised there'd be no public support.
Cowen gave them a chance to save face.

Wait till they get double whammied in the budget like the rest if us.

greendom

Common sense prevails - not often you can say that in recent times

leitrim lad

they deserve it ,it is there own fault ,i always said the loud mouth always comes out the worst, and look whats happening now to all the public sector workers who are in unions, and them union leaders are as corrupt as sean fitzpatrick ever will be

Stevek101

Just have to worry about Dublin Bus now.;)

LoLth

ok, so they are scum for wanting to strike and now that they are more than liekly calling off the strike in favour of attendign talks with the government, they are still scum or "treasonous losers".

FFS, make up your minds or are you just so bigotted that it doesnt matter what anyone in the PS/Union - which many seem to mistakenly believe are public sector only - does, you'll hate them anyway whether you know them or ever had any dealing with them or not ?

I'd have thought you'd be happy that there isnt going to be a strike (i know I am).

leitrim lad

well not only ff is on their cases shane ross let rip yesterday about the proposed airport strike,and he was right to,cos in laymans terms the unions are just trying to knock the current government and bankrupt the country, and one lesson i learned many years ago is that you dont bite the hand that feeds you ,no matter how small the rashen is, the unions need to lear that lesson too

ateam

IMPACTs failure to get the support needed to carry a strike was decisive I think. They realised that they don't have the kind of support they're promoting from within their membership for strike action.

White dargo

leitrim lad wrote: »

cos in laymans terms the unions are just trying to knock the current government and bankrupt the country,

For the record I disagreed with the proposed strike also but you are getting preposterous now:rolleyes:

leitrim lad

people are coping on to how bad this mess is and they are not going to follow a union who intends on making it worse

flogen

The unions must realise the main decisions for the new budget have already been made* and the Government won't be looking for any ideas from them, just window dressing.

At least I hope they have at this stage!

greendom

leitrim lad wrote: »

the unions are just trying to knock the current government and bankrupt the country,

I didn't realise Arthur Scargill had taken up a career in the Irish Trade Union movement

ronbyrne2005

A decent leader, sensing the public opposition to the unions, would have called their bluff and let them strike. He would then be in a much stronger position. He should not have invited them to more long drawn out futile "discussions".

leitrim lad

seems like he just has,they wont be happy until the imf have to be called in

Rabidlamb

LoLth wrote: »

ok, so they are scum for wanting to strike and now that they are more than liekly calling off the strike in favour of attendign talks with the government, they are still scum or "treasonous losers".

FFS, make up your minds or are you just so bigotted that it doesnt matter what anyone in the PS/Union - which many seem to mistakenly believe are public sector only - does, you'll hate them anyway whether you know them or ever had any dealing with them or not ?

I'd have thought you'd be happy that there isnt going to be a strike (i know I am).

Yes I'm happy but I want to sit down & slowly stroke my cat first.
Me 1 PS 0.

leitrim lad

and hopefully by the end of these talks it will be me 2 . ps 0

Carlow52

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

A decent leader, sensing the public opposition to the unions, would have called their bluff and let them strike. He would then be in a much stronger position. He should not have invited them to more long drawn out futile "discussions".

Well put. The talks at AL lasted 4 years.

Having read this
http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0325/exchequer.html
stating that the borrowing figure still not agreed on is scary

brettmirl

I'd love to know how much the strike that never was cost the unions in printing ballot papers, arranging meetings, press ads, posters, etc.

Darragh29

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Treasonous losers realised there'd be no public support.
Cowen gave them a chance to save face.

Wait till they get double whammied in the budget like the rest if us.

What'll happen now is when the budget comes out, people will just bypass the unions and down tools of their own acccord.

The government are probably afraid there will be riots after the April budget and want the unions onside rather than have them fanning the flames ouside the comedy that is the partnership process. Imagine going on strike in the current climate because you didn't get a payrise!!!

leitrim lad

hopefully 98% of their yearly budget and if so they will be a quiat bunch for the rest of the recession

greendom

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

A decent leader, sensing the public opposition to the unions, would have called their bluff and let them strike. He would then be in a much stronger position. He should not have invited them to more long drawn out futile "discussions".

i don't agree with that. Surely, in this time of crisis, he should be looking for agreement and consensus. How will anyone benefit from further retrenchment and bitterness ?

For once I have to say - well done Cowen

ronbyrne2005

greendom wrote: »

i don't agree with that. Surely, in this time of crisis, he should be looking for agreement and consensus. How will anyone benefit from further retrenchment and bitterness ?

For once I have to say - well done Cowen

The unions only represent a fraction of the workers in this country. The public sector unions dont care about the massive unemployment in Private sector, they simply want to maintain the maximum pay and conditions for their members REGARDLESS of the consequences for those in wider economy. The country is going bankrupt and needs urgent deciscive action. The government spoke to the unions for months before announcing the pension levy and unions agreed to nothing. Social partnership only worked when we were already on the floor and when Bertie and co had lots of tax revenue to buy votes and elections. Unions dont want to accept any pay cuts, but the money is not there, the well is dry and we can not afford to pay current public sector pay levels which are the highest in Eurozone. Becnhmarking should work on way down too but hypoctical greedy unions wont accept this. They want all the benefits but none of the downside of the "capitalist" economic cycle.

stevoman

meh, i was looking forward to striking again.

leitrim lad

in my own opinion and i know this will cause upraor but anyway, i think the whole public sector needs to be restructured,and so what if the half of them loose their job,they are still going to live off the state on the dole,and do as much work as they already do.
there is too many golden circles in the p s also and they need to be wiped out ,clear them all out fas is one good example to begin with then the hse, opw ,nra, and so on even the county councils if you want a job in any of those your parents and grandparents have to be well up the ladder already to get you in and thats not right

ixoy

Glad to see it off - I'll go further than Leitrim Lad and think that the government should see the names of every single person who voted for strike action and have them executed and their heads mounted on a wall as a reminder to those who dare question power

More seriously, I'd imagine this is merely a postponement of industrial action rather than an end to it. ICTU are demanding people look at their little 10-point plan which is still a fairly weak one and is lacking in little matters like revenue figures.

leitrim lad

fair play ixoy , the power needs to be shown to them shower in the ps/u ,who do they think they are,me and you pay there wages , we pay for them to waste our money around the country,they are not tax payers in the ps ,they are just putting our money around in a circle, and eventually it ends up in a pension for them ,they dont work hard, they dont deserve more money, they should be lucy to even be spongen off us proper tax payers in the first place

greendom

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

The unions only represent a fraction of the workers in this country. The public sector unions dont care about the massive unemployment in Private sector, they simply want to maintain the maximum pay and conditions for their members REGARDLESS of the consequences for those in wider economy. The country is going bankrupt and needs urgent deciscive action. The government spoke to the unions for months before announcing the pension levy and unions agreed to nothing. Social partnership only worked when we were already on the floor and when Bertie and co had lots of tax revenue to buy votes and elections. Unions dont want to accept any pay cuts, but the money is not there, the well is dry and we can not afford to pay current public sector pay levels which are the highest in Eurozone. Becnhmarking should work on way down too but hypoctical greedy unions wont accept this. They want all the benefits but none of the downside of the "capitalist" economic cycle.

Regardless, they are an important interest group and deserve their place at the table. If Cowen can accommodate them without hampering his plans to stabilise the economy that will be a major plus. To force them to lose face and leave them on the sidelines fuming will be of no benefit to anyone. Industrial strife is the last thing the economy needs at the moment. Granted the unions need to play their part and realise the seriousness of the situation.

oscarBravo

greendom wrote: »

To force them to lose face and leave them on the sidelines fuming will be of no benefit to anyone.

It worries me that such a major player in the economy needs to be treated like a petulant child.

Dr Galen

leitrim lad wrote: »

fair play ixoy , the power needs to be shown to them shower in the ps/u ,who do they think they are,me and you pay there wages , we pay for them to waste our money around the country,they are not tax payers in the ps ,they are just putting our money around in a circle, and eventually it ends up in a pension for them ,they dont work hard, they dont deserve more money, they should be lucy to even be spongen off us proper tax payers in the first place

what are you talking about?

People in the public sector pay taxes like you and me in the private. When I did work in public sector I also made pretty big contributions into my pension fund, so although it got nicely topped up by the state, it certainly wasn't free as you seem to think.

To say that public sector workers don't work hard is crass and a large disservice to people. You obviously have a rather large axe to grind, wouldn't you be better off taking out all that anger on the government who allowed this situation to happen?

Dr Galen

oscarBravo wrote: »

It worries me that such a major player in the economy needs to be treated like a petulant child.

agreed, but maybe its a necessary evil for the times we're in right now. Even though they have been invited back though the Brians should not be giving in to any old demands though. If after this round of talks a proper, final and useful agreement can't be reached, then let them strike and see where it gets them. TBH support even within their own ranks is wavering,

mikemac

Impact rejecting strike action was probably a large part of this decision to postpone. And I mean postpone because we'll have the same situation in a month or two.

One of the teaching unions rejected strike action too I think.
They certainly didn't get everyone organized for March 30th

greendom

oscarBravo wrote: »

It worries me that such a major player in the economy needs to be treated like a petulant child.

Fair point, but I don't think the trade unions are worse than anyone else. Look at Cowen throwing his toys out of the pram over RTE's coverage of the naked photos as an example

leitrim lad

to mistik monkey,,,, private sector pays taxes ok,, public sector gets wages from those taxes they also pay their taxes from their wages , so they are tecknically not really paying tax , it is the private sector money just going around in one big circle, and i do not have an axe to grind ,i and other fellow voters voted for the government and they did not cause this mess ,it was a combination of wrekless lending, wanabe yupees, and unions who now have this country on its knees,,,,,,,,,,,,

Dr Galen

to mistik monkey,,,, private sector pays taxes ok,, public sector gets wages from those taxes they also pay their taxes from their wages , so they are tecknically not really paying tax ,

well thats a bit chicken and egg type scenario really, as you could say that using that sort of logic that the public sector worker actually pays a lump of their own wages through taxation. anyway we could go round all day on that one to no real end don't you think?

,i and other fellow voters voted for the government and they did not cause this mess ,it was a combination of wrekless lending, wanabe yupees, and unions who now have this country on its knees,,,,,,,,,,,,

So the current and previous governments, all of which included FF as the major major player, are blameless?

leitrim lad

if it wasnt for the last 3 governments wer wouldnt have nothen, the public sector has tripled since 1997, we have a road network nation wide , and similar rail, compare ireland to the uk, in the case of social welfare, ireland is 4 times more generous that the uk, and that is a comfort to anyone who has no job, so on that basis the government are not to blame, however i do agree that a very small minority of politicains are dodgy, and did take advantage (bribes and so on)and they are being punished for it, but the majority of the civernment is as good as you are going to get in this country anyway

Dr Galen

the public sector has tripled since 1997,

and who mandated that?

thats right, the government of the day

we have a road network nation wide ,

a lot of which was funded at least in part by EU structural funds

in the case of social welfare, ireland is 4 times more generous that the uk,

and a bill for this of about 20billion, a farcical situation IMO seeing as our tax take is going to settle at about 34 billion. We also have 40% of workers paying no tax at all, which again is a joke. All of which was put in place by the government

but the majority of the civernment is as good as you are going to get in this country anyway

it's sad that this is probably the only part of your post I agree with

deanswift

As a card carrying union member now for more years than I care to remember I deplore the calling off of one day's strike by ICTU.
The crisis in our country was NOT caused by workers either organised through unions or otherwise.
This crisis was caused by, as you all well know by greedy property developers and rogue bankers and all orchestrated by successive governments with an insatiable appetite for revenues from stamp duty.
This coming budget will be the fourth attempt by a disastrous government to get the budget for 2009 balanced.
Each and every member of government earns in excess of 5000euro per week.
This fact alone makes them the most overpaid group of people on the planet and in return they revel in their incompetency as witnessed regularly by their demeanour when viewed in the TV shots of Dail.
Workers are being penalised massively for the outright pilfering of money from the public purse by slumbag millionaire bankers enriching their pensions to the tune of millions of euro, though the share price of their banks they are paid to control have become worthless.
This is incompetency on a scale that beggars belief.
Were it possible to restore the jobs of Dell workers in Limerick or those of Waterford Glass or SR technix, all workers public and private would donate their salary to a fund to keep these positions.
How many so called pillars of Irish industry have made fortunes only to deprive the Irish taxsystem by channelling the proceeds through Italy or Isle of Man?
The worker has a right to make his views known by legally withdrawing his labour for one day.

oscarBravo

deanswift wrote: »

The worker has a right to make his views known by legally withdrawing his labour for one day.

Heaven forbid he'd make his views known at the ballot box come election day.

What's with the constant banging on about rights? Sure, you have the right to strike. What's at question is whether it's a useful thing to do.

Dr Galen

some people just don't get that subtle difference though do they?

ixoy

deanswift wrote: »

As a card carrying union member now for more years than I care to remember I deplore the calling off of one day's strike by ICTU.

Just out of curiosity, how do you think a one day strike would have helped sort out the economic woes? They'd still be there on Tuesday the 31st of March.

BroomBurner

I see the usual bile and vitriol cam spouting out of the crazies on this thread too! I'm referring to page one btw. Hardly a coherent arguement anywhere.

Anyway, I'm delighted the strike is off, 'cause I'm sick of all the tension. However, what still remains are the following facts:

Pension levy still unfairly weighted
Top brass in government still received a payrise
Bank workers still received a payrise and some received bonuses, even though they are not a profitable enterprise (evidenced by the €7billion bail-out)
Government still behaving as if nothing is happening - still no receipted expenses for top brass (unlike the rest of us), Ministers flying first class, no paycut for TDs, etc.

So, yeah, you can spout off about how much you hate the PS and how we're all a bunch of wasters that don't deserve our jobs and that all you unemployed people would love to have our jobs, blah blah blah, but you fail to recognise that we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. We have to bear the brunt of bad management decisions (and by management, I mean government), and the misplaced jealous hatred of some members of the private sector (please refer to numerous posts in this thread to see this).

leitrim lad

yes and the 20bn in the social welfare at the min is going to people who lost their jobs and more than likely have young families, and house to pay for, and yes public sector workers have that too ,but the people on the dole probably do more work then the public sector workers and you never hear of them wanting to strike,
take this example,,,,
my yard is broken into a van is stolen by a drugee up the road, i ring the gaurds, 3 days later they come out, all the way to tell me it is a civil matter.
and you tell me they are worth paying good money to

the cheek of ye to even consider strike, should be lucky to have a job, maybe if you did loose it you might take your union heads out of the clouds

ixoy

BroomBurner wrote: »

I see the usual bile and vitriol cam spouting out of the crazies on this thread too!

I'm a bit worried that my post about mass decapitations seemed to pass some people's irony filters...

However, what still remains are the following facts:

Pension levy still unfairly weighted

Agreed. Quick question: If relief on the levy was only at 20%, do you think people would feel a bit better? Or would it also still have to be widened? I believe with a bit of jigging the levy could still bring in the same (if not more) and have an appearance of being fairer.

Top brass in government still received a payrise

Ridiculous wasn't it? I could sense the anger over that one - it was a right two fingers to the other public sector workers.

For what it's worth I think there should be a proper pay freeze in place - that includes increments which are still going on (people's pay increased around me). Then we could look at maybe revolutionizing the concept of increments and introducing a merit-based aspect. Of course pigs will probably fly over the frozen lakes of Hell first, but I do genuinely think it would be - long term - a good approach.

Bank workers still received a payrise and some received bonuses, even though they are not a profitable enterprise (evidenced by the €7billion bail-out)

I wonder if they could emulate what the US government did - a 90% tax on bonuses? It's a great populist idea and I think something similar here would go down well.

Government still behaving as if nothing is happening - still no receipted expenses for top brass (unlike the rest of us), Ministers flying first class, no paycut for TDs, etc.

True - they need to lead by example. Now of course that still wouldn't change the deficit or need to increase taxes or make cuts but would you reckon, from the sentiment of those around you, that people would actually accept these changes if they felt leaders were practising what they preach?

leitrim lad

wel my opinion on the bankers is cap it at 40k per year and that is even too much for them, they do nothing pruductive day to day ,it is just a title to be an excecutive.
ministers should get the same allowance per mile as gaa players (example) and they should not have a fleet of new merc state cars, nobody wants to show off especially in these times,
their expences and total gross salary should be capped also at 40k per year, and then that would give grounds for the people in the public service to follow suit ,on that example and take the necessary cuts required by the state.

Galmay

Brian Cowen today continues to be one useless gobsh!te. Possibly the most incompetent political leader of all time.

He has obviously folded to the unions. The unions said they wanted to return to talks on economic recovery all along and that they were striking for that reason and to protest government mis-management of the crisis including the unbalanced pension levy. They have gotten exactly what they wanted.

True, if the strike went ahead ignored it may escalate quickly but it wouldnt be long before it was seen as unsupported not only in the general population but within the public sector staff too, thus making it not only futile but weakening the union position.

I work in the PS as a health professional and I did not want to go on strike(not only because I think its wet on Monday!). I would support a protest without hesitation if the union made justifiable demands such as ending all the sickening waste in the HSE, the multitude of duplicated managers and deputy managers and their fancy hired out offices, the outrages cuts on junior docs (Im not one of them btw!), demanded an end to cutting areas such as further education supports for front line staff while continuing with useless team building and how to have successful meetings crap courses that we get 2 or 3 emails about a day, there is a huge long list of stuff I could rant on about.
Point is, the unions are out of touch and shouting at the government about all the wrong things, and just as importantly, Brian Cowen is pathetic.

irish_bob

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

A decent leader, sensing the public opposition to the unions, would have called their bluff and let them strike. He would then be in a much stronger position. He should not have invited them to more long drawn out futile "discussions".

i completly agree , cowan has thrown the unions a lifeline , not because he was concerned for the economy but because he was concerned about fianna fail public sector voters having gone over to labour
id have perfered to have seen a strike and hence a viscious backlash against the ps
the unions will come out of this this sit down with the goverment still standing and with possibly the promise of a reverse to the levy when the good times return

party before country

leitrim lad

do you see alot of waste in the hse?

would it be on supplies that are not needed, or staff promotions

nesf

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

and a bill for this of about 20billion, a farcical situation IMO seeing as our tax take is going to settle at about 34 billion.

Keep in mind that that 20 billion is the bill for the entire Department of Social Welfare and Family (it was originally estimated at 19 billion for 2009 then revised upwards to just over 20, I wouldn't be surprised if it went well over 20 billion unless action is taken).

You're talking about everything from the dole and "Back to Work" schemes to the old age pension, blind pension, child allowance etc.

irish_bob

leitrim lad wrote: »

do you see alot of waste in the hse?

would it be on supplies that are not needed, or staff promotions

sorry to speak for someone else but i imagine he or she means the layers of beauracracy that exist for no reason other than to create jobs for those who work within that beauracracy

leitrim lad

and what about say the foreign doctors in hospitals, are they recruited here for their cheap labor or is this an attractive country for them to work in ,ie slalary wise , do we not have enough doctors and nurses of our own who are now either looking or already gone to places like australia, and im not hitting one particular section but the average wage of a gaurd is €1,000 p/w ,now i know that is not the case with every member but on average that could be halved in times like this.