Are the public sector workers/unions in cloud cuckoo land?

meglome

I can see there are several different threads going on with elements of this. Firstly I'd like to say I'm not against anyone here I just really want things to be done right to get us out of this situation as quickly as possible. Our government are utter fools it seems to me and if only it consoled me in some way that I didn't vote for them.

I'm in the private sector but we mostly work with the public sector. I appreciate the argument that the pension levy may not be fair to all. But going through my friends in the private sector many have had their pay cut by 10% plus and a number more have been laid off full stop. All of these people were getting less than the average public sector wage anyway. Actually the only people I know getting more than the average public sector wage run their own businesses (the ones that are still solvent) or in decent management positions in big companies.

I had a meeting in the last two weeks and at the end of the meeting a discussion came up about the private sector and the public sector. I have to say I found their (public sector) views well out of step with A. the private sector people I meet and B. The harsh reality on the ground. There was almost a sense of entitlement which I honestly don't find in the private sector people I know. Really I was asked why hadn't we just all got jobs in the public sector instead of moaning about it. Well I had no idea what they were being paid, I just kept hearing how poor it was, except it wasn't. Not that it would be the work environment for me anyway. One teacher (ex teacher but still technically a teacher) was being paid over 50k and still in her thirties, not management or anything.

So while I'm despairing of how the government have reacted thus far I'm not sure supporting the public sector unions is the message I want to send. I'm worried they would see it as full support of their position and not a protest against the government.

So by calling strikes for what I certainly believe are not the right reasons are they in cloud cuckoo land? Are they just making things worse?

Sorry just wanted to say I was really glad to see that the Impact trade union members didn't vote for strike action.

BroomBurner

Could you not have posted this in one of those many other threads?

Any chance this could be merged?

meglome

BroomBurner wrote: »

Could you not have posted this in one of those many other threads?

Any chance this could be merged?

Well it's a specific question and I asked it.

dresden8

meglome wrote: »

So by calling strikes for what I certainly believe are not the right reasons are they in cloud cuckoo land? Are they just making things worse?

Apparently since we don't do anything economically productive or in anyway useful at all the worst that will happen is you will save a days pay.

Win win.

ParkRunner

meglome wrote: »

So by calling strikes for what I certainly believe are not the right reasons are they in cloud cuckoo land? Are they just making things worse?

Will the government pay any attention? No. Will the government save a packet in not having to pay thousands of union members wages? Yes.

Im sure the government are only too happy with the strike. Revenue has fallen off a cliff anyway so the loss in revenue from the disturbances which the strikes may cause will be more than covered by the savings in not paying wages.

My own union have said the aim of the strike should shift away from the pension levy, away from the pay agreement and towards a campaign for a fair mini budget, which I think is fair enough as they do represent PAYE workers.

BroomBurner

EF wrote: »

My own union have said the aim of the strike should shift away from the pension levy, away from the pay agreement and towards a campaign for a fair mini budget, which I think is fair enough as they do represent PAYE workers.

I didn't know you were a public sector worker?

P. Breathnach

meglome wrote: »

Well it's a specific question and I asked it.

The answer to your specific question is no. The reason why the answer is no is that there is no cloud cuckoo land.

Not much of a question, really.

iseethelight

I'll try an answer from my viewpoint in the civil service.

Firstly the pension levy problem is the inequitable enforcement. Because its tax exempt higher earners take a lesser hit.

It would have been much better for lower paid civil servants if the govt. had decided to suspend all pension contributions from both employee and govt. for 2 or 3 years untill the economy was in better shape.
Also a pay freeze for that period.
The CPSU I believe would have bought this eventually.

Of course this was never suggested because it would affect high paid civil servants and TDs ministers who will retire soon.

As for this day of protest next Monday. The CPSU had only 1 ballot Iwas led to believe for the 1 day strike I was on. I nor any of my colleagues signed up for a 2nd day nor I believe would we. Simply because the CPSU has done nothing but complain. No suggestions.

We all know something has to give but the CPSU seem unwilling to accept it.

ParkRunner

BroomBurner wrote: »

I didn't know you were a public sector worker?

I am for my sins

blast05

Apparently since we don't do anything economically productive or in anyway useful at all the worst that will happen is you will save a days pay.

Hmmm, a 1 week strike by everyone in the public sector with the total public sector pay bill of in excess of 20 billion would mean a saving of 400 million. I think so it would be great if yee could strike 1 week a month for the rest of the year so

It would have been much better for lower paid civil servants if the govt. had decided to suspend all pension contributions from both employee and govt. for 2 or 3 years untill the economy was in better shape.

And would civil servants have accepted an associated lesser final pension - around 5% in this instance ? Not on your life ...

Also a pay freeze for that period.

Oh good Lord, how generous of you :rolleyes:

meglome

dresden8 wrote: »

Apparently since we don't do anything economically productive or in anyway useful at all the worst that will happen is you will save a days pay.

Win win.

Not what I was saying anyway.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The answer to your specific question is no. The reason why the answer is no is that there is no cloud cuckoo land.

Not much of a question, really.

Thanks for your em... input

iseethelight wrote: »

I'll try an answer from my viewpoint in the civil service.

Firstly the pension levy problem is the inequitable enforcement. Because its tax exempt higher earners take a lesser hit.

It would have been much better for lower paid civil servants if the govt. had decided to suspend all pension contributions from both employee and govt. for 2 or 3 years untill the economy was in better shape.
Also a pay freeze for that period.
The CPSU I believe would have bought this eventually.

Of course this was never suggested because it would affect high paid civil servants and TDs ministers who will retire soon.

As for this day of protest next Monday. The CPSU had only 1 ballot Iwas led to believe for the 1 day strike I was on. I nor any of my colleagues signed up for a 2nd day nor I believe would we. Simply because the CPSU has done nothing but complain. No suggestions.

We all know something has to give but the CPSU seem unwilling to accept it.

Very good suggestion.

Gumbo

judging by tour late posting (9.53pm), im sure you are aware that impact members have voted against a strike.

leitrim lad

the unions are in cuckoo land ,im an employer in the private sector and i employ 10 people ,those 10 people are not garunteed steady work for the foreseeable future , i have not taken a weeks wages for my self in 2 years just to insure that my employees are safe.
public servants need to realise that their jobs are safe if they comply with the cuts, and forget the unions ,anyone who is the loudmouth in the class always gets left behind and that is what the unions are.
in the sector im in construction (and im not a builder/developer im the small man at the bottom of the ladder) people like me have been down graded to such a degree that i feel im doing something wrong asking around for work ,my companies are in no difficulties but i will do as much as i can to protect my employees.
i would not have the heart to tell any of them who have young families and houses to pay for that they have no job,so the public servants should pipe down and respect their jobs while they still have them,and forget the unions ,i dont employ union members because they simply do nothing and when you ask them to work they go on strike.
and to look for a pay rise in these times is criminal, take a look at all the families who could end up homeless because of unemployment and then think about a pay rise or a strike:mad:

meglome

kceire wrote: »

judging by tour late posting (9.53pm), im sure you are aware that impact members have voted against a strike.

Actually my bad I should have said that and I thought it was a very good sign. I'm very much in favour of protest but for the right reasons.

Gumbo

leitrim lad wrote: »

the unions are in cuckoo land ,im an employer in the private sector and i employ 10 people ,those 10 people are not garunteed steady work for the foreseeable future , i have not taken a weeks wages for my self in 2 years just to insure that my employees are safe.
public servants need to realise that their jobs are safe if they comply with the cuts, and forget the unions ,anyone who is the loudmouth in the class always gets left behind and that is what the unions are.
in the sector im in construction (and im not a builder/developer im the small man at the bottom of the ladder) people like me have been down graded to such a degree that i feel im doing something wrong asking around for work ,my companies are in no difficulties but i will do as much as i can to protect my employees.
i would not have the heart to tell any of them who have young families and houses to pay for that they have no job,so the public servants should pipe down and respect their jobs while they still have them,and forget the unions ,i dont employ union members because they simply do nothing and when you ask them to work they go on strike.
and to look for a pay rise in these times is criminal, take a look at all the families who could end up homeless because of unemployment and then think about a pay rise or a strike:mad:

how have you been surviving for the last 2 years?

also, PS workers can be sacked, we are employed under the same employment laws as private sector workers.

and lastly, have you been reading any of these posts, because who is looking for a pay rise?

meglome

kceire wrote: »

also, PS workers can be sacked, we are employed under the same employment laws as private sector workers.

Yes they can but how many actually get let go.

kceire wrote: »

and lastly, have you been reading any of these posts, because who is looking for a pay rise?

In fairness to the poster the unions at the very least have been somewhat insistent on getting the pay rises.

dresden8

blast05 wrote: »

Hmmm, a 1 week strike by everyone in the public sector with the total public sector pay bill of in excess of 20 billion would mean a saving of 400 million. I think so it would be great if yee could strike 1 week a month for the rest of the year so

At least it would be fair (silly smiley sh1te)

Gumbo

meglome wrote: »

Yes they can but how many actually get let go.

fingal county council recently let go all their temp technicians and contract technicians, some have been there for 5 years. Kildare county council laid off staff, but im not sure what grades or roles they were.

In fairness to the poster the unions at the very least have been somewhat insistent on getting the pay rises.

but thats the problem, posters go off on a their high horses mouthing off not thinking or reading the facts that most PS workers dont want rises or what the unions want, the unions seem to be on a justifying (sp) spree at the moment.

leitrim lad

the september pay deal with the un elected union leaders equals wanting a pay rise, i know public sector workers can loose their jobs but at the minute it is the safest job to have in the country, i think strike is wrong, we all could protest to the bad things that certain people did in the past but that wont do anything productive for the future, only cause traffic jams in the city, the cuts and rises in tax are coming so it is now time to face the music and get on with it, it will come good again and when it does make the most of it.

Ms Happy

I've bitten my tounge for long enough through the public sector bashing. The reality is not everyone in the public sector is permanent I'm not permanent, I have a contract for another 18 months I know will not be renewed (and if things get any worse I'll be cut next) i'm not on huge wages of 50K a year either, i'm on just under 27K a good bit under the private sector average.

Yes there are people who are permanent, on great wages and do nothing. I love my job work damn hard I'm not like them. I'm still renting as on my low wage I can't get a mortgage, I pay the pension levy too! I'm happy to do my bit (tax/levy etc.) but the levy should have been done more fairly.

Public sector bashers.... don't bother taking my post apart and telling me how lucky I am to have a job etc. I know I'm lucky to have a job. I could go on for ages but whats the point. We should be sticking together through whats to come and stop all the blaming

*rant over*

Godge

leitrim lad wrote: »

,

i have not taken a weeks wages for my self in 2 years just to insure that my employees are safe.

You must have made plenty of money in the good times to be able not to take a weeks wage now. Invested in property, shares, tax-free investments etc.???



,

i dont employ union members because they simply do nothing and when you ask them to work they go on strike.

Oh, so that is how you made so much money, exploited the workers and didn't let them join a union, which is a constitutional right, you know. Did you manage to keep up with the employer contributions to the construction sector pension scheme?

iseethelight

And would civil servants have accepted an associated lesser final pension - around 5% in this instance ? Not on your life ...


I believe most people with more than 10 years left would though of course I stand to be corrected. It would be hard luck on people due to retire soon,but they would have their houses bought and families all grown up and left home.
So yeah I think reasonable people would.

meglome

Ms Happy wrote: »

I've bitten my tounge for long enough through the public sector bashing. The reality is not everyone in the public sector is permanent I'm not permanent, I have a contract for another 18 months I know will not be renewed (and if things get any worse I'll be cut next) i'm not on huge wages of 50K a year either, i'm on just under 27K a good bit under the private sector average.

Yes there are people who are permanent, on great wages and do nothing. I love my job work damn hard I'm not like them. I'm still renting as on my low wage I can't get a mortgage, I pay the pension levy too! I'm happy to do my bit (tax/levy etc.) but the levy should have been done more fairly.

Public sector bashers.... don't bother taking my post apart and telling me how lucky I am to have a job etc. I know I'm lucky to have a job. I could go on for ages but whats the point. We should be sticking together through whats to come and stop all the blaming

*rant over*

I have no argument with you on this. But the reality is it's much worse in the private sector right now and getting worse.

ParkRunner

meglome wrote: »

I have no argument with you on this. But the reality is it's much worse in the private sector right now and getting worse.

Would a better thread have been then what can the private sector do now to rebuild our economy rather than focussing on what the unions are flapping about?
Public expenditure is being cut and will be cut more but nothing will be achieved until a real (not false) economy is created and built upon by the supposed wealth generating part of our economy

Godge

meglome wrote: »

I have no argument with you on this. But the reality is it's much worse in the private sector right now and getting worse.

Let us be honest, in some parts of the private sector. some of us are still doing all right.

leitrim lad

i have nothing against public sector workers ,they provide sereral usefull services ,but if the unions dont pipe down there will be blood spilt and no need for it .
i have contributed alot to a pension for my employees (cpcs) and i think the world of them they all get the same 13 clear per hour and time and half over 39 hours, i made money in good times and i still am making money and i dont exploit anyone my employes and i have an agreement and its no unions

meglome

EF wrote: »

Would a better thread have been then what can the private sector do now to rebuild our economy rather than focussing on what the unions are flapping about?
Public expenditure is being cut and will be cut more but nothing will be achieved until a real (not false) economy is created and built upon by the supposed wealth generating part of our economy

Well maybe so. But the unions have been making sounds/moves that I'm very uncomfortable about and I believe could make things worse.

meglome

Godge wrote: »

Let us be honest, in some parts of the private sector. some of us are still doing all right.

True I'm doing okay myself so far but the majority are not. But we have cut back everything to be very safe.

ParkRunner

meglome wrote: »

Well maybe so. But the unions have been making sounds/moves that I'm very uncomfortable about and I believe could make things worse.

That is what they are paid to do in fairness. Their actions have made no difference from what I can see apart from where employees are being left with no jobs in trying to secure a half decent redundancy package (SR Technics, Waterford Crystal).
To expect a Union to advocate pay cuts for its members now would be similar to expecting an estate agent/bank to advise its customers that they actually shouldn't go for such an insanely overvalued investment/crippling lifetime of debt

givyjoe81

kceire wrote: »

how have you been surviving for the last 2 years?

also, PS workers can be sacked, we are employed under the same employment laws as private sector workers.

and lastly, have you been reading any of these posts, because who is looking for a pay rise?

Didnt you mean to say, 'technically' public service workers can be sacked?! Come off would ya, how many public service workers.. including the big guns have been sacked over the last few months?! The amount of jokers that sail through the PS without ever coming close to be sacked is just mind boggling, i know of such utter clowns and also people in the PS who tell me about such unsackable(so it seems) clowns. Id like to see some unbiased figures but i dont think its a leap to suggest that the PS has abnormally low sacking rate, and its not as if as a whole its overperforming to justify this!

givyjoe81

mikemac wrote: »

You seem a genuine guy but no wages for two wages?
Either you're a martyr keeping ten people employed or you're a sucker.
Either way fair play on owning your business



You do realise it's a constitutional right.
I don't work in construction but if I interviewed for your company and you turned me down for this reason you'd be wide open to a claim. And rightly so

Dont know how to put to two quotes in one post, sorry!

Although it is a constitutional right if his company does not recognise unions then it will serve you no benefit while working there. This constitutional right can also be given up by a new employee and so often it has been, almost exclusively by private sector workers, who are offered great terms and conditions by US multinationals, but unfortunately when times are bad, their jobs go silently into the night, and im sorry thats just a harsh reality.

You cannot expect a company to lose money hand over fist just to keep people in a job. And thats a lesson the public service need to realise,just like a company cannot afford to keep losing money and continue to operate, the goverment must recognise these simple economic realities when dealing with their EMPLOYEES...i havent seen many if any alternatives to the pension levy, except BS like 'dodgy bankers, why bail them out etc etc'...Irrelvant at this stage, so i wont regurgitate all thats gone before.

ArphaRima

I'm a member of IMPACT. I work for a listed private company.
My union is under IMPACT.

I was extremely unhappy with proposals to join in the national day of strikes. I am an educated professional, and I understand basic economics. I expect to take a hit on my take-home pay this year, especially in my top tier of tax, and of course my salary.
I was also due an increase under T16. I think it's outrageous that some unions are still looking for it.
Just about every interest group in the country will hijack this march/day of protest, and I want nothing to do with the majority of them.
I have no interest in giving support to the PS unions. They know they had it good the last few years, and know they have a strong position in that they can shut down the country overnight. I will have no part in that continued blackmail.
For this reason I am glad that IMPACT voted down participation in the ICTU day of protest. I see any attempt to circumvent that vote as downright undemocratic.

I am hoping the government sees that the general population does not support the CS unions, and that they will be safe in taking them on.

Unions are dominated by CS and PS interests, socialist principles etc. I feel we need some right wing, hardcore government responses to the CS right now.

irish_bob

i dont think public sector workers or unions are in cloud cuckoo land , i think they are simply pure selfish and willing to bleed the rest of us dry such is their sense of entitlement

the unions and anyone who strikes with them at the moment are nothing short of traitors to this country

DadaKopf

It's interesting to note that among the EU-15, Irish private sectors are among the lowest paid and the spending power of what they earn is lower than our continental counterparts. At the same time, inequality of earnings has increased considerably as the rate of pay to business-owners and managers, rather than employees, has increased far beyond the levels found in the continent. Evidence suggests that this has badly affected our productivity.

At the same time, reports show that the private sector is more inefficient and badly managed than our EU-15 counterparts. The Irish Competitiveness Council and the National Economic and Social Council recognised this in the last number of years. Yet we would get the impression through the media that it is only the public sector that is hopelessly inefficient. This inefficiency is partly the result of bad management, so what justifies the supernormal profits accruing to business-owners and managers if they're not doing their job properly? [Please don't take this to imply that there are no decent employers, nor that employers are all running badly managed companies; these are trends that have been identified by research organisations, so I feel they're valid and relevant to bring up.]

The government has also mismanaged things. Especially the expansion of the public sector. Firstly, as the recent OECD report shows, the Irish public service is not too big - what it says is that for a comparatively small public sector, it has achieved a lot, but that has been in spite of poor planning, poor implementation, poor governance structures, low levels of funding and resources, too few financial controls, and the wrong kinds of management.

It condemns the government's 'agencification' of the public service - the quick fix solution of setting up stand-alone quangos separate from any ministerial or democratic accountability. The manner in which resources have been wasted through poor HR policies - the HSE being a case in point. The failure to set clear criteria for the creation and dissolution of agencies, junior ministries and so on. That the public service should be performance-based and that positions should not be permanent, and that positions should be transferable across departments and agencies - what it calls 'the wider public service'.

In other words, while we do not have a big enough public service, those people in redundant jobs could be transferred to other jobs where their skills could be put to good use - if only this could happen in the HSE.

At the same time, private sector workers need 'flexicurity': an acceptance of a softer labour market but a guarantee of strong and simple social insurance programmes to ensure a stable quality of life for all while re-skilling. Economic analyses by economists such as Dani Rodrik have also forcefully made the case that small, peripheral, trade-open economies like ourselves are so vulnerable to crises like this that we need social security and critical infrastructure much more than other countries.

But this notion that we have a 'generous welfare state' is not true. For example, a single person claiming benefits in Ireland receives the second least amount of transfers of all EU-15 states. Rent relief is scarcely available. After accounting for real spending power (the real amount that each euro buys in Ireland vs. other countries), this amount shrinks even further.

I don't doubt that serious actions in relation to taxation, expenditure and pay need to be taken to avoid national bankruptcy, but I feel these points aren't being made in the debate and they're critical to forging an equitable plan to get us out of this.

jimmmy

leitrim lad wrote: »

the unions are in cuckoo land ,im an employer in the private sector and i employ 10 people ,those 10 people are not garunteed steady work for the foreseeable future , i have not taken a weeks wages for my self in 2 years just to insure that my employees are safe.

You are not the only one. Many a self employed person is just scraping by too, but have no option of just going on to the dole, as they would not qualify.
The public sector workers are indeed in cloud cuckoo land.

leitrim lad

well join the gang ,all self employed subees ,we get grief for being in the trade and apperently we earn billions accoerding to union leaders, that is why i dont employ union members, but i do pay into the cwps for my employees.
i think it should be put to public sector workers either your job or strike and strike means P45,there are a couple of hundred thousand unemployed workers in the country ready to take public sector jobs, so it evens itself out, get the honest people back to work

stevoman

jimmmy wrote: »

The public sector workers are indeed in cloud cuckoo land.

sweeping generalisation IMO.

Im a civil servant, 9 years in and i was making €488 a week until the 1% levy and then my "pension levy" came in. Now i make €450. I also have a year old daughter and a partner who cannot get any work and cannot draw the dole as she was a studying and hasnt got enough stamps built up. I have a mortgage to pay and i have to pay bills and run a car etc so YES, i will be striking as i find it very unfair that as a lower paid civil servant i have been hit with a pay cut. And i am not on cloud cuckoo land , wherever it exsists.

And i have put up with the measly wage for the last 9 years because of job security. i have watched my firends lauph and brag to me in good times about howe crap my wage was but i put up with it because i knew my job was safe. IMO that was enough of a sacrafice in good times to watch others make a lot while i kept up with a crappy wage. but know im expected to take even less of a crappy wage becaouse the very ones who were making the money are now crying to me about it. i dont think so.

SEPT 23 1989

jimmmy wrote: »

You are not the only one. Many a self employed person is just scraping by too, but have no option of just going on to the dole, as they would not qualify.
The public sector workers are indeed in cloud cuckoo land.

i am self employed and my company is just surviving week to week i am taking
no wages just to keep it going,hoping that this disaster comes to an end soon,
no one is speaking for the self employed in this country and we are suffering the most,if the government think the revenue returns were bad recently wait and see whats coming down the road there will not be enough money to pay for the public service:mad:

DadaKopf

stevoman wrote: »

sweeping generalisation IMO.

Im a civil servant, 9 years in and i was making €488 a week until the 1% levy and then my "pension levy" came in. Now i make €450. I also have a year old daughter and a partner who cannot get any work and cannot draw the dole as she was a studying and hasnt got enough stamps built up. I have a mortgage to pay and i have to pay bills and run a car etc so YES, i will be striking as i find it very unfair that as a lower paid civil servant i have been hit with a pay cut. And i am not on cloud cuckoo land , wherever it exsists.

And i have put up with the measly wage for the last 9 years because of job security. i have watched my firends lauph and brag to me in good times about howe crap my wage was but i put up with it because i knew my job was safe. IMO that was enough of a sacrafice in good times to watch others make a lot while i kept up with a crappy wage. but know im expected to take even less of a crappy wage becaouse the very ones who were making the money are now crying to me about it. i dont think so.

I understand your situation. I haven't a mortgage or a family, so I'm not as badly off and shudder to think how stressful things would be for me if I did. But I chose to work in the charity sector, I accepted that I would earn low wages serving others. Now I'm unemployed. I've been on low wages my whole working life and haven't even got job security, but I wholly support the union's argument to struggle for an equitable plan to get us out of this mess. The vulnerable should not suffer.

stevoman

DadaKopf wrote: »

I understand your situation. I haven't a mortgage or a family, so I'm not as badly off and shudder to think how stressful things would be for me if I did. But I chose to work in the charity sector, I accepted that I would earn low wages serving others. Now I'm unemployed. I've been on low wages my whole working life and haven't even got job security, but I wholly support the union's argument to struggle for an equitable plan to get us out of this mess. The vulnerable should not suffer.

thanks for the support and i hope things get better for you too!

i just think that their has been a sweeping generalisation of "public servants" and the goverment let its workers down by letting the media turn it into a scapegoat for the failing econamy and a witchhunt for anyone that takes a goverment payceque.

Gumbo

irish_bob wrote: »

i dont think public sector workers or unions are in cloud cuckoo land , i think they are simply pure selfish and willing to bleed the rest of us dry such is their sense of entitlement

the unions and anyone who strikes with them at the moment are nothing short of traitors to this country

jimmmy wrote: »

You are not the only one. Many a self employed person is just scraping by too, but have no option of just going on to the dole, as they would not qualify.
The public sector workers are indeed in cloud cuckoo land.

talk about trolling. have any of you 2 read any other posts in this thread or one of the other ongoing threads?

private sector workers are doing great, they are getting no pay cuts at the moment.


i know the above isint true, but my me saying it doesnt make it true, just like the above quotes, it is super generalisation to the extreme.

leitrim lad

read back too last night i am too self employed my friend i employ 10 people and i havent taken wages for myself for over 2 years now justto protect my longstanding employees, i cut everything that was unnecessary spending from the companies ,including my salary,i made it in tgood times and im making my savings last now.
rearing a young family on pittence every week just to make sure we have evough for the next week ,and i would rather do away with myself than tell someones father he had no job,and the cheek of some un elected p***k of a union leader to attempt strike ,and dont forget the unions thought they could bully the government that was voted in by the people ,to up their pay along with that, well they need to be thought a lesson some ogf them union leaders ase worse than any banker/developer ever was

Naz_st

Ms Happy wrote: »

Yes there are people who are permanent, on great wages and do nothing. I love my job work damn hard I'm not like them.

stevoman wrote: »

sweeping generalisation IMO.

kceire wrote: »

it is super generalisation to the extreme

Unions breed generalisations, pretty much by definition. You can't have it both ways:

PS Unions: "We demand everyone be treated the same!"

PS Worker in union on Boards: "How dare you make a sweeping generalisation - you can't treat all workers the same! Some of us work very hard (though I agree there are some people who just feck about)"

So long as the unions consistently rally against a scalpal-like cutting off of inefficiency in the form of selective redundancy, and against any real form of performance related pay increases and sanctions, generalisations are inevitable. Their approach maintains inefficiency (equal payrise rewards for both the very hard worker and the waster) while making any expenditure cuts made by the government guaranteed to be unfair to someone.

So I agree that all three of you are absolutely right about the generalisations being unfair. They're guaranteed to be unfair by virtue of the fact that you can't treat everyone the same, because everyone is demonstrably not the same. Which is the point you're all making. Now just go and tell your union leaders that!

You can't have your cake and eat it.

jimmmy

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

i am self employed and my company is just surviving week to week i am taking
no wages just to keep it going,hoping that this disaster comes to an end soon,
no one is speaking for the self employed in this country and we are suffering the most,if the government think the revenue returns were bad recently wait and see whats coming down the road there will not be enough money to pay for the public service:mad:

I agree 100%. Many a self employeed person is in the same boat as yourself. Many are digging in to savings and borrowings. I am a peaceful person, but when I hear of public servants wanting to strike it makes me sick ...I know lots who would settle for half their pay and perks.

BroomBurner

I'd just like to express my unequivical gratitude to all those hard-done by self-employed, private sector workers that have kept this country afloat. From me, to you:

It must have been cold there in my shadow,
to never have sunlight on your face
You were content to let me shine, that's your way,
You always walked a step behind

So I was the one with all the glory
while you were the one with all the strength
A beautiful name without a face, for so long,
A beautiful job to hide the pain

Did you ever know that you're my hero
and everything I would like to be
I can fly higher than an eagle
'cause you are the wind beneath my wings


Midler really did say it best. Thank you all.

leitrim lad

i totally understand certain people are worried in the public sector who are on contract ,but come on the bloddy gaurds arent handing out p45s every day of the week ,neither is the revenue, or the hse as far as that goes ,so why go on strike over firstly a pension that you can look forward to and secondly the garuntee or a steady job, keep up the strikes and we will see how smart ye unions are when the country goes under and the imf have to be brought in

Dob74

I am self empolyed, but I think the unions have a right to be pissed off.
Why haven't there been any arrests of the white collar crimials.
They are the one's who fcuked up the economy.

After the last day of action on saturday by tuesday the cops where in Anglo.
It only took 3 month for Mandoff to get a life sentence.
Why hasnt anything been done in this country?

The highest paid civil servants and the highest paid bankers should be the first to pay. They had there hands on the levers of power. And they messed up. So tax, fine and imprison the wrong do'ers. Then go after paye workers.

leitrim lad

the union leaders are all a bunch of wafflers who dont understand politics or how to run a country , i personally wouldnt let them run a tap for me. they are not voted in by the people of the state into power therefore they are not entitled to tell the countries leaders how they should be running the country, they badly need to be taught a lesson a crowd of bluffers siptu and impact , did you ever hear such shute in all your life , my opinion of a lesson is a lorry load of p45s for anyone who attempts strike that would teach them whos boss

leitrim lad

25- 30k is enough of a salary for anyone no matter how important you think you are ,white collar criminals should be jailed in along with the addicts ,and that brian goggins fellow is lucky to be alive, who in their right mind is unable to answer a straight question how much do you earn per year, the same with the top notch in the hse and fas couldnt lie straight in the bed let alone answer a question.
i am able to tell anyone straight away what each of my companies earn per hour let alone per year ,let them cut the bull crowd of wafflers the whole lot of them

stevoman

leitrim lad wrote: »

the union leaders are all a bunch of wafflers who dont understand politics or how to run a country.

my opinion of a lesson is a lorry load of p45s for anyone who attempts strike that would teach them whos boss

So how would you run the country apart from your suggestion to lay off any worker who attempts to strike and have their voices heard? obviously more lay offs would effect the economy more, as more people would join the dole queues and bring the country into even more of a recession. also by stripping the people of their basic rights to strike is almost on a line with communism.

leitrim lad wrote: »

25- 30k is enough of a salary for anyone no matter how important you think you are

so i make 30K a year. out of that i have to pay my mortgage. now down to my crappy €450 a week because of the levy. out of that i have to afford my mortgage, my car, petrol, bills, shopping, my baby daughter etc.

so you think 25-35k is enough for anyone. so thats your suggestion we all just get that across the boards.

thanks for the input stalin.

leitrim lad

plenty of people on the dole who would be glad to take a job in the public sector, and never strike, read back trough my posts i havent taken a weeks wages in over 2 years now from any of my companies ,nor do i take a cut of the profits at the year end ,i dont own big deposit accounts or masses of stacks and shares ,anything i have to live off i worked very hard for it , and i am able to live so is my young family , but most importantly my employees who also have young families can survive on hust under 35k per year and they make the most of it too.and because i cut my own wages my employees still have jobs